Xbox One's cloud-side computing is one area that gives Microsoft's console an advantage over PlayStation 4, Avalanche Studios' chief technology officer Linus Blomberg has told VideoGamer.com, despite PS4 featuring more impressive 'raw power'.
Sony has Gaikai. Cloud computing and cloud rendering just a short step away if they wanted to unleash it they could just as well.
The current-gen PS3 and 360 can offload physics and AI calculations to cloud servers. There is absolutely nothing unique to the Xbox One hardware--no built-in chip or component--that enables it to handle these operations anymore efficiently than any PC or game console that is already currently available. Cloud computation is not a hardware issue, it's an internet latency and bandwidth issue. The fact that even Avalanche says "Sony may implement something similar for the PS4 in the future" should tell you that there is absolutely nothing special about the Xbox One hardware that makes it more suited for cloud-assisted computing than the PS4. This is all just smoke-and-mirrors marketing by Microsoft to try and divert attention from the fact that the Xbox One specifications are weaker than the PS4's. Also keep in mind that even Microsoft admits cloud-assistance won't be able to augment graphics, or other latency-critical aspects of games. So even if a few games are able to utilize cloud-assisted computing for things like physics and AI, it's not going to make an Xbox One game with crappy graphics look any better on a visual/rendering basis.
Also, people fail to realize that this is just MS's attempt and answer against Sony's Gaikai. MS found out about Sony's Gaikai and probably said that they should do something about it which resulted in coming up with the idea of the cloud.
and if your web lags.... lag in single player... just what I always wanted -_- you know it wasn't bad enough that many devs can't even get their games to cope with fluctuations during multiplayer.. Hell Dark Souls sometimes lags a tiny little bit if your web messes up and that's just connected to the web incase someone invades/for messages/coop symbols/ghosts of other players.
Holy shit going from neogaf to N4G is like going from a university to a preschool. Gaikai's software is not built for offloading computations. The software is only used to stream complete games that run on a faraway computer. Much like we stream movies nowadays. Asking Gaikai to do what Azure does is the EXACT same thing as asking Netflix to do what Azure does. It just wasn't built for that. Azure was designed from the ground up for offloaded computations that don't affect real time needs. In gaming it will affect lighting, AI, multiplayer stats (ala Halo 4), terrain, and other non-realtime processes. It has also already been used by companies around the world since 2010.
The general concept has been used way before then. Back when I played Quake in 1997, I would download updated map data, modified/enhanced maps, mods, and other "non-realtime" assets on-the-fly, from remote servers (a.k.a., "the cloud"). Since we, as well as Microsoft, are using such a loose and vague definition of "cloud computing," I'd say the way games like Quake or Counter-Strike send you updated data from the servers would count as a form of "cloud-assisted computing." To reiterate, any PC, and even the current-generation consoles like PS3 or 360, can do cloud-assisted computing. It's not a hardware-constrained technique, it's a software-constrained (and internet-constrained) technique. The bandwidth and latency of internet pipelines are so limited and slow compared to the northbridge interconnects on a motherboard, that they essentially preclude any notion of meaningful gains in graphical, physics, or AI fidelity... even if Microsoft's claims of "3 cloud Xboxes for every 1 at home" are true. Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/ar... Insofar as whether Gaikai technology would be suitable for cloud-assisted computing is a moot point; Sony doesn't even need to use Gaikai software to do cloud computing in their games. The developers themselves can implement their own cloud-assisted computation methods directly into their game code. To say that "only Xbox One can do cloud-based computing" is like saying "only Xbox One can do VoIP because Microsoft owns Skype." "In gaming it will affect lighting, AI, multiplayer stats (ala Halo 4), terrain, and other non-realtime processes." AI and lighting are realtime processes, so I don't think you completely comprehend what you're talking about.
By non-realtime processes, I was referring to static lighting, which is prebaked and background NPC AI which, according to the very article you referenced, can also be preloaded. "Another known possibility for cloud computing is AI, not for direct interactions such as determining if an NPC should duck or shoot, but for background AI in living worlds like Grand Theft Auto and Elder Scrolls. The complexity of these games has always been limited to the console's resources, and AI has often been very limited to simple behaviour routines. Cloud computing could run world simulation and just update the player's local world over time, allowing the world to live and respond to player actions. Such complex game worlds could be a significant advance, but they are also constrained to a limited set of game types. Games like Xbox 360's flagships Gears of War and Forza Motorsport have little need for smart NPC AI of this kind." "Lighting has been named as a possibility for cloud processing by Microsoft. Lighting has a history of pre-calculation, creating fixed data that is stored on disc and loaded into the game. Early use of this concept was "pre-baked" lightmaps, effectively creating textures with the lighting fixed in placed, which could look fairly realistic but was static and only worked with non-interactive environments. Advances like pre-computed radiance transfer (PRT) have made pre-calculated lighting more dynamic, and the current state-of-the-art is Unreal Engine's Lightmass featured in the next-gen Unreal Engine 4. This pre-computes light volumes instead of the real-time calculations of Epic's former SVOGI technology which was deemed too computationally expensive. Although the cloud could not run SVOGI type dynamic lighting due to latency and bandwidth limits, it does offer the possibility of 'pre-calculating' lighting data for dynamic scenes." I may not be a programmer, but I know how to read. Thanks for the source, I recommend you read it too! :)
@Jockamo: I did read it. Basically, to sum up the article for you since you don't seem to quite grasp its basic conclusions, what Digital Foundry is saying is that one "possible" candidate for cloud-computing assistance is that you can download updated map data from the internet, such as pre-baked lightmaps (aka, static or "fake" lighting) that corresponds to a different time of day--for example, the sun shines brighter and casts light at a different angle. Once again, not terribly dissimilar to the way online FPS games since 1997 (Quake, Unreal, Counter-Strike, etc.) have allowed players to download updated audio, maps, models, and mods from the server. Still, even though downloading pre-baked lightmaps from Microsoft's cloud servers is technically a possibility, I can't fathom why a game would even need to do so. Three Xbox One's would not render a lighting pass much faster than your local machine would... at most, the difference in rendering time would be a couple of seconds. Thus, why even offload lighting calculations to the cloud? Why not just do it on you local Xbox One console, even if the lighting update would be delayed very slightly? It just doesn't make sense, as it would greatly increase the complexity of the code, and would serve to make the game unnecessarily reliant on online connectivity (always-online). If the servers for the such a game in question were to go down in the future, or if Microsoft's cloud servers go down for servicing, or if your internet is suffering slowdown or service interruptions, then all these lighting features would be rendered completely useless. Why not just calculate these pre-baked lightmaps on your local Xbox One machine (albeit with a little more delay for the lighting to update) and completely avoid all these aforementioned hassles? In the end, until Microsoft proves--with strong, concrete tech demonstrations or actual implementations in game code--that its proffered partial-cloud computing concept is a viable alternative to traditional local processing, I'll continue to view their claims as snake oil, a tactic to obfuscate the fact that the Xbox One is significantly less powerful than the hardware inside the PS4. If Microsoft does somehow miraculously pull off its dubious cloud concepts in meaningful ways, then that would be great. Then, Sony and other game companies can adopt some of the proposed ideas into their own games, and then everyone wins, with better AI, more complex physics, and more dynamic worlds for all to enjoy. But none of these things are likely to happen.
Azure has absolutly nothing to do with gaming or calculations. There is a reason Microsoft signed a deal with Agawi. I know you lack knowledge of them, but they are a cloud gaming platform. The platform Agawi and Microsoft are building will not be called Azure. It will not differ much from Gaikai. Calculations on the cloud while the game is running will hinder latency unless its Singleplayer only. It all runs through the same wire in your house. Bandwidth for that just isnt here yet.
I only care about the game and the freedom to play them.
the XBOne cloud computing is gonna be nuts if they actually know how to use it. im sure they are gonna charge an arm and a leg to upgrade your system for better graphics, but its crazy that the console can do it. Cloud Computing can only help the XBOne. its a very sick positive in the MS column. just doubt that the developers are gonna use it since they like to do the bare minimum to make money.
Avalanche are in M$ pocket it seems. Sony has their own 'cloud' service guys and it hasn't even been discussed fully, who knows the full extent of what they can do? besides they can easily upgrade the service down the line if it becomes in demand and a success.
SO since Avalanche likes a feature of the xbox one, they have to be in their pocket? Give me a break. Did you even read the article? They say PS4 is capable of adding this feature and if it catches on they probably would. God, the fanboys here are ridiculous.
Since when? Just because this guy said his opinion means that the whole studio is in MS pocket? last time i checked avalanche wasnt bias towards any console manufacture and now that this cheif in tech guy said something avalanche is "riding microsoft". -_- unbelievable...
they have been praising MS a lot the since the ONE reveal, that's all i'm going to say
Cloud this cloud that. I'm sick of Microsoft and devs. Talking about the posabilities with the cloud. If that was a huge leap for the posabilities on Xbox one why don't they give us a demonstration on how it will work instead of telling us with there mouth.
LOL.. if MS doesn't talk about it then they're hiding something, but if they talk about it then they're talking too much? Same with other features.. when they clarify something, then Sony fans will do the "well they're doing this other crap..." Why even bother... you guys should just say you wont buy it because its MS.
"you guys should just say you wont buy it because its MS." That reason works fine for me. I've admitted many times that I was a MS hater before the original XBox. Their business practices turned me off a long time before they ever got into gaming. That reason doesn't explain why many long time MS supporters are turning on them now. This isn't about Sony fans hating on MS. If it was, the majority of developers who have talked about the subject wouldn't give the power advantage to PS4 and there wouldn't be legal questions around the world about One's functions.
Mystic what is your definition of "turned on them" if you mean expressing displeasure of some new policies then yes, I and many have, if you mean no longer want the X1 then I think you'll be proven wrong, unless then your definition of "many" must be based on something I dont see, I mean even on a pro sony site like n4g the vast majority of what I would call "long time supporters" of 360/ micro fans seem to be still very much interested in buying a X1, voicing concerns is far from turning on them. So basicly nothings changed as far as core fanbase is concerned those like you who hate micro, still hate micro and are of course the ones eho yell the loudest, make blog sites, vote in negatively every poll you can find, rant on n4g over and over again with the same talking points, while most of those who like the X1 just put in pre orders and wait. Also testerg35 is absolutely correct micro is dammed if they do, dammed if they dont...if they talk about something then its all BS PR, if they dont talk then they must be hiding something like "their cloud service must be useless for gaming", meanwhile sony/devs associated with sony say anything and its automatically GOSPEL, just go ahead write it down in the Scientific Tech Bible of Facts.
@Jokes - I see longtime MS fans, not just on N4G, say they don't want a One for various reasons. Whether they hold to that is another story. I honestly don't think this cloud power business will amount to anything this generation. I'm also skeptical about Sony's claim to offer a type of BC with Gaikai, but even that seems far more possible than increasing power through the cloud, given the current state of worldwide internet access. I saw an article talking about this, saying low level data would be streamed, data that didn't need constant updating. The example they used was lighting. Maybe I'm looking at things in the wrong way, but it seems to me that something like lighting would need constant updating in a game where you navigate through a 3D environment. I'm no developer, but I'd think most data would need constant updating in a truly 3D environment. I live in a fairly major US metropolitan area and use a high profile provider, but my internet connection certainly isn't rock solid. I just don't think people who are trumpeting this are thinking things through very well. I also think MS would have made a pretty big deal about it at their One reveal, but then again I would have done several things differently at that reveal if I was in charge. All I need to know about One is that MS will continue to charge for online play. Even if online play was free, One's memory type isn't as good for gaming as PS4's and it's OS takes up nearly half (half!!!) of that memory. The need to be online periodically and the dependance on Kinect, along with the various privacy issues implied by MS's own patents, are additional reasons why I wouldn't want a One. This cloud thing is nearly a non-issue compared to those others, even if it works, which I seriously doubt. But, if it does work, I believe Sony will be able to counter it with their own cloud service. Not immediately of course, but it would be doable. They had clusters of PS3s for dedicated servers back when PS3 was so expensive to produce that they lost money with every sale, so I don't think Sony would hesitate to match what MS is doing, if it works.
Ur right,I will never buy it because its Microsoft, cus I hate their business practices.
With all this cloud stuff Microsoft is pushing XBL prices will undoubtedly increase(doesn't have to be @ launch) and will it be mandatory now? unless people expect them to offer all these so called features for free haha. Xbox One: Works as advertised only if you pay more money!
I don't know, they have a lot of money, I don't see them rising the costs at launch.
All consoles will have its pros and cons, and this one for the Xbox One.
I'd say this is a pro and a con. It's a great step for technological advancement is they pull it off right, but I highly doubt they will. If I am correct, MMORPG is already doing this and you could clearly see that the AI is not really that intelligent. Another thing that bothers me is that these single player games that need cloud computing wold need an internet connection to play these games. It also needs MS to keep these servers up and running. Therefore these single player games sometime down the line would become unavailable. Not a big deal at all since most people don't play old games but would be a downer to me.
Streaming something to a console just needs servers and technology in the back-end. So neither console has advantage. However Gaikai infrastructure is already built to be the fastest. Microsoft is building from scratch so I wonder which console will offer it 1st?
Azure was released in February 2010 to consumers. :/
as long as i can watch tv on the xbox one im happy... who needs games right?
Not much of an advantage for people that don't connect to the internet. Also, not much of an advantage when developers can't count on the cloud computing being available for every single customer. Not very fair to the Xbone users if one person gets a superior experience for the exact same game, on the exact same console, at the exact same price.
If you don't have online, you get the service you would've gotten.. If you have online, you get an even better service.. It sounds right to me. That's how life is, you don't have something you don't get to use what it provides.. Dam simpletons
I don't get it. So does Sony have an advantage if you don't connect to the internet (ie: Gaikai, that share feature)? "Also, not much of an advantage when developers can't count on the cloud computing being available for every single customer." This is true, but you could also say the same thing about users stating that Gaikai can add this feature. Devs usually don't take advantage of new features when not in the original dev package (ie: chat, ...).
Sony isn't trumpeting that their console will get progressively more powerful due to cloud computing. Obviously if you don't connect to the internet, you're going to lose online features. This isn't a matter of losing online features. This is fundamentally receiving a poorer game due to lower processing power. If you have online now, you get to play MP, get patches, leaderboards, etc...What MS is saying is that the actual game itself will be improved due to cloud computing. Do you see the difference? So if person A can't go online and they pay $60 for a game, what they get is going to be an inferior experience to someone who IS online and gets higher res textures, better lighting effects, better AI, etc.
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THIS? If M$ excuse is cloud gaming too take on tasks such as AI/textures/sound to offset the limited hardware and that the system needs a online connection anyway....this requires a high speed connection. 65% of USA does not have high speed and worldwide high speed is in the teens... 1) DID MS FORGET TO LOOK AT THIS? 2)WHAT DEVELOPERS WOULD USE THE CLOUD IF A TON OF PEOPLE COULDNT USE IT?
Actually, 65% have HIGH speed internet, referring to cable/higher. Excluding DSL, which a lot of people have. You don't need a crazy internet connection, you just need AN internet connection.
The only way the cloud offloading for graphical and game features is if they use them exclusively for computationally-heavy, but small-data tasks. Textures and sound are large-data, but light on computational complexity. AI, physics, global lighting, etc is all computationally-heavy, but small amounts of data. That won't require much internet bandwidth at all. The main issue with that is that AI and physics (and other tasks), they are more latency dependent than others - so that's where the the developers' creativity will come into play. Anyone with an internet connection that can stream 720p Youtube will not have an issue with this.
"65% of USA does not have high speed and worldwide high speed is in the teens... " Dude that's a lie, I have 2 houses one of which is deep int the country, and I'm talking deep. Yes cable or optic high speed internet is not available, However, I have the choice of 3 DSL services and two satellite services(maybe even more satellite servces). Anyways, I do have eartlink dsl, and dishnet satellite. So, I know if I'm able to get dsl internet in a house 20 miles away from the nearest city there is no way in hell you are going to sit there and tell me 65% of U.S does not have high speed internet. In case you are wondering why I have two internet service Earth link claim their data is unlimited, but when I do a lot of downloading it slows down. So, I just use the satellite for downloading because at least I know when to stop because of it data cap. and the DSL for streaming movies and gaming.
^ this fact will wreck the install base
[email protected] some ppl on here saying gaikai cant do what xboxone cloud can.. bahaha! Ive played a few gaikai games that looked as good as a ps3 game, and, through their servers, yet, it cant play games? Baha!
I'd say Sony still has an advantage with cloud. Since they bought gaikai they haven't leaked too much on what they are working on.
So it looks like Just Cause 3 might be Xbox One exclusive or timed exclusive due to how Avalanche Studios has been sticking up for MS. On the the Cloud thing, this idea that Cloud will make your console more powerful is bunk. Local hardware is far more effective, this is why PS4 has 1/3 more GPU cores, faster and more available RAM. But lets talk about Cloud for a moment. There are difficult obstacles to consider for Cloud computing. First it requires stable high speed connection just to be applicable for this purpose. Secondly, there are latency issues with relying this data back and forth. Lastly, it requires console resources at the same time. It is nice to talk about and dream of the defunk Phantom console that was supposed to be based off this tech some years ago, but it seems MS is using this as a way to counter attack PS4's superior hardware, when in fact Sony has its own huge Cloud infastructure with Gaikai.
This is Total BS - There is almost nothing you can do more quickly on compute via a remote server somewhere else on the web, that is of use to a game at run-time. At best your Internet connection will offer you around 6MB/s of bandwidth, the average in the world is an insignificant fraction of that. 6MB/s is slower than reading from something like a USB port.
Can someone clarify whether a powerful Internet connection is required to gain use of the type of cloud processing Microsoft Is talking about??
It is not only download but upload speeds and uploads speeds by providers in the US have been slow. There is also issues with where and what countries your data will be stored. There are privacy and lost data issues. Server traffic also effects performance of Cloud computing. There are just so many viables to this system to make it safe and reliable. Google Cloud computing there are lots of articles and good discussions about it.
One is STILL not better than 4 XBONE < PS4
Let's see... Kinect is awesome and better than controller....lies We don't know about Rrod....taken to court lies We are for core gamers.....Dancing kinect star wars and battalion...lies Cloud makes system three times more powerful....."I'll let you fill it in... It amazes me how after all the or spins and lies ppl believe this bs Lol. Beyond that computers with their cutting edge and always pushing gaming have never ever used cloud to boost graphics it just isn't possible for many many reasons. If computers don't do it what makes u think a week console or micro can? Microsoft knows ps4 is more powerful than xboxs and aree using this as a scapegoat. Many devs not in micros. Pockets have already dispelled this myth. Currently cloud is used in MMOs and such for saves, leaderboards, etc... That's it because of its limitations. Even windows 8 cloud features are tremendously slow at times and less intensive but they'll be able to boost graphics? Azure isn't even used for gaming purposes but bcus of azure micro has an upper hand? talk about bs lol Listen Gakai is a proven clouspd service that can do anything micro. Cloud can do and probably more. Yes its a streaming service and? Microsoft is selling dreams talking about boost and computatiins server side if things and Viola 3xs the graphics? Lol long I CNT believe ppl believe this. Microsoft is taken a page from Sony who months ago talkies about cloud, its potential, reinforcing infrastructure, except micro is copying and adding a lie.
Here we go with cloud non sense Microsoft pr bs..
Folks that dont understand this technology will bash it and say its BS. MS is provusioning and prepping developers to use this awesome technology. The cloud servers uses hi end streaming gpu cards where all the xbox one dev tools are stored. The results will be amazing like large MMORPG with superior AI and large scale warfare games with destructible environments. This is a massive investment by MS that will pay off.
Sure, if you're connected to Internet. Want to take your Xbone camping, to the cabin, in your RV, to an area with no Internet? Sorry, won't work. I call bullshit on Microsoft's cloud computing claims.
If you're doing any of those things, maybe you should leave the Xbox home and simply enjoy them as they were meant to be experienced i.e. without you playing video games.
that would just make me enjoy the outdoors more, like go fishing, kayaking, hiking or what ever it is that i do when going camping.
What a dumb argument Clevernickname. Everyone on this site has internet, stop crying like all of the sudden the world turned into haiti.
Haha! Xbox while camping! Sorry but "camping" in your RV is not really camping.
Considering I just came back from camping with friends and brought my PS3 and 360, you guys apparently have no idea. Not everyone wants to play cards at night, or kayak, hike, or fish in the dark. It is a completely valid complaint, but SimCity was a great success, am I right?
i have some doubt about this as many other have stated. i wish someone would ask them what would happen when the company stop support for the game or when you lose connection?
If Msft makes their games like this, then your more renting a game. After the support then the game is worthless. But MSFT will say something like they plan to support this for many many years. Which is not forever and it won't be for many years.
@ kidmyst that maybe true. but sony is also doing the same with Gaikai. as both service will be more on the lines as renting the games. i don't think any company will come out and give an expiration date on how long a game will be supported. my question is will they come up with something that will have it work offline once the servers close. like what EA claims will happen once they shut down the servers for simcity 5 if it should happen.(which i expect in the next year or two)
FrigidDarkness It is admirable that you champion this tech. I am not as optimistic. From what I have read and how it is currently utilized from High End PC's. I just think it is not viable for less powerful tech in consoles. At least in the way Microsoft is presenting it.
SONY has GAIKAI for PlayStation 4, and its way better than Microsoft cloud technology
Gaikai says hi, with its technology which is actually proven to work.
Onlive says hi, which after it went under, MS hired all their engineers without actually having to buy the company. Onlive was > Gaikai.
I hope Sony doesn't do this with any Single player games. Multiplayer is fine but single player should be 100& offline and then you can have cloud computing for co-op and MP. Otherwise the games we buy are essentially worthless without having to be always connected.
"You have no idea what you're talking about. 300,000 servers are massive but what if those severs are weaker than Sony's Gaikai servers? What if one of those servers are equal to two of Microsofts? Then 300,000 becomes 150,000 in comparison. We don't really know is the problem. Edit: OnLive sold for 4.8 million don't believe everything you hear. Lol OnLive sucked btw. Gaikai is far superior in tech." You clearly have a problem comprehending what you read. I clearly stated Onlive was worth over 1 Billion. I never said anything about how much it was sold for. Get out of the defense mode dude. "Now it turns out that OnLive was sold for just 1/375th of its past estimated value of $1.8 billion." http://www.forbes.com/sites...
Did every journalist out there forget Sony had Gaikai ages ago? Why do people keep acting like all of the sudden Microsoft are the only people using a cloud..? Microsoft was late to the party as always, Sony had Gaikai a while ago and Gaikai hands down is the best cloud gaming service there was. Seeing as Sony has invested close to a billion dollars into it on top of how great it already was before they purchased it, means it will only be better. Microsoft's cloud is not going to save the Xbox One, sorry. They are lying, saying it will make it more powerful. Correction, it will free up resources which then rely upon your internet connection. Amazing the grip Microsoft has on the industry when you hear senseless babble like this all day. You want to be excited for Microsoft's cloud, fine but don't ignore the other technology that is out there and that has already been out there as if Microsoft is the only people to be doing this..
Wrong, Microsoft was said to be investing in the cloud way back in 2009, but this is typical of sony fans you always trying to claim sony was doing it first when it comes to innovation.
Microsoft and innovation? Yikes. Are you really that big of a fool? Microsoft never innovates anything.