Major Nelson Director of Programming for the Microsoft gaming network Xbox Live responds.
Major, the issue is not trading in or reselling games, all of you at MS are deviating from the real question and problem which the ability to play used or lend games to friends and family....everyone knows that trading in and reselling games has never been the issue.....you guys really do have a future in politics He hit it right on the head.
I could also imagine that they are waiting for Sony's stance on this. If one of them does it, the other could very well follow suit. But as far as I know, Sony hasn't any plans for it fortunately.
"Sony hasn't any plans for it fortunately." It turns out the patent Sony filed people keep bringing up wasn't even PS4 related. lol http://www.eurogamer.net/ar... "Interestingly, I also spoke to a Sony source elsewhere at the event this evening who told me that the anti used-game patent discovered last month was actually nothing to do with PlayStation 4 at all." And not to mention the PS4 can go "TOTALLY OFFLINE"... http://www.joystiq.com/2013... "Did we consider it? No, we didn't consider it," Yoshida said. "The main reason being that many countries don't have robust Internet connections. It makes sense for people to have Internet connections to play online games, but for offline games there are many countries that we saw [that] do not really have robust Internet." So I don't get how DRM would work... Only thing I see working is online passes...
sony is taking the middle ground stance of....if the 3rd parties want to do it...thats on them. Which translates to, its okay with us if they want to do it. sony never said there would be 100% free to play used games. they just said the platform supports used games. Yes there is a difference. its their platform, their rules and they can flip flop at any time without warning. If they see that the 3rd parties are imposing fees or DRM checks, they can do 1 of 2 things. Stop the process all together or join in. So lets just wait to see if they release more details.
Sony already said that they won't block used games. http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
Sony said they aren't blocking used games so if they implement this they were lying. As Majin-Vegeta says the problem isn't trading. I personally see more of a problem in companies getting away with this because of what it does to their heads. They think they control us and are pushing more and more to see what they can get away with. Kill this idea day one and make it go away forever or support it and make it get too out of hand. These companies need the message. This industry is no different from any other and they aren't getting special treatment. Every other industry puts up with used sales. Bottom line = WE control THEM! Not the other way around. Its time people reminded them of that. Hence why I don't see Sony following suit.
@darth Correction you. Sony already stated they will not block used games. But if example EA want to block with online passes then Sony can't do anything about it. @Vegeta What you also can do is just buy the xbox one and later make a trail. Take them to the court and say you wasn't aware of blocking used games. Just deny and say greedy microsoft never stated they will block used games. $$$$$
you have the Sony president saying one thing "When you purchase the disc-based games on PS4, it should work on any hardware. So that's what I'm saying," Yoshida said at the time. "Should" being the key word here. and you have the Sony VP saying another "In relation to points like that, of course we're mindful of what the game development community wants and what the wider industry issues are with those things. I think in good time that will become clearer," Are they not united on this? wtf http://www.gamespot.com/new...
Both companies have said the exact same thing. "Used games will not be blocked." Thus the interpretation of the phase is: used games can be played. where people are comprehending things differently is that MS said there would be a fee and sony said its up to 3rd parties if they want to impose a fee or DRM. They never said they themselves would not follow suit with a fee or DRM if the situation arose. They know people would want to hold them to that which is why they phrased it as a way of getting around the question with a general statement of used games will not be blocked. There are many undertones to that phrase but people are fixated at the surface level. edit @diver...thanks for the link. From that people need to understand the last key point: "Shuhei Yoshida stated that "when you purchase the disc-based games for PS4, that should work on any hardware." When asked whether games would require online registration, Yoshida noted that that decision was up to the publisher. When asked if Sony, as a publisher, would require games to be registered online, Yoshida said, "we are not talking about that plan." Many are seeing that as, if sony isnt talking then it must be that they wont do it. We could speculate that the reason they arent talking is they dont want to ruffel feathers thus ruining their chances of selling units. OR, they arent talking because they havent finalized anything in regards to it. OR, they arent talking because there is nothing to talk about. Maybe people would be more convinced if he had just said: No. i know i sure would be.
The title should read: Microsoft: Major Nelson issues an official re-statement regarding Used Games on XBox One. This isn't any new information. He just reiterated what was already said. And like many have already said, if the policy is anything but "insert disc, play" then it's the wrong policy.
Thank you darth! These damn fanboys are so fixated on sticking their tongue out at ms fanboys they completely ignoring what is right in front of them. Having to pay a fee to play used games and blocking used games is NOT the same thing! Take some law classes or business classes and you will understand it's not just WHAT you say but HOW you say it! You people need to grow up and stop gloating and start asking the same questions to sony as well now that the cat is out of the bag. There is no way sony is going to sit back and let ms rake in the profits next gen from Live, used games etc and do nothing. We've already seen them put in their own online passes for first party games just like EA so I'd keep quiet until more is known and I hope, pray even that you use the same hate and venom on Sony as well! Stop playing the fool against one another and grow up and stand up for yourselves, THE CONSUMER/GAMER!
the reports are inaccurate and incomplete because the info coming from MS is inaccurate and incomplete THE FACTS ARE: -for the next xbox MS will consider the license separate from the disc (they said outloud the word permission) -games can be played from the HDD without the discs FROM THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND: -if a game can be played without the disc then it stands to reason that MS will somehow prevent that disc to be passed around and installed on hundreds of consoles, which is understandable and fair BUT... -how will MS know whether you're are still playing a game from the HDD that came from a disc you still own or one you've sold? -there's only one possible answer: your console will need to periodically phone home (read: go online) so they will know when to REMOTELY DELETE STUFF FROM YOUR HDD because the disc was registered as sold second hand in one of their approved shops -so if your console has been offline for more than a certain period (they said 24 hs) then MS will assume that you're trying to play games from your HDD that you don't own anymore, and since they can not delete them from your HDD until you go online the OS will not let you play ANYTHING until you let your console call home to check if any store has registered any of the games that you have installed as sold before they let you play the ones you still own that's plain wrong and evil WHAT ABOUT SONY YOU MIGHT ASK? Sony has clearly stated that the PS4 will work offline never having to connect to the internet if internet is not required then they have no way of verifing that a disc you're putting on your console is new or second hand therefore used games on PS4 will work the same as PS3 these are facts, they don't need to annouce an plans, from what they made public we can figure out the rest
I think you are right. I think they may be testing the waters before they make the official announcement on it. Microsoft cant afford to push away consumers like this. I expect them to rethink their strategy.
Aka "We need to kill this bad press so lets just release some BS statement that neither confirms or denies anything so that everyone shuts up." NOTHING has changed, we need to make as much noise about this stupid used games fee, which is basically a block. Because it will mean that retailers will be able to control the price of used games and they will stay at $55 for as long as possible, because there will be no competition with the PRIVATE reselling market. Not to mention that the retailers will be able to give you absolutely nothing for trade in value because you have NO OTHER CHOICE. Any person that doesn't see that is a COMPLETE IDIOT.
I think Sony wants to do it the right way: Encourage digital sales and subscriptions. If we walk into it willingly, we can't complain (like how we use Netflix). By putting a policy or policing system in place, Microsoft is taking a stand against what we view as our freedoms and/or rights, and that's why people are throwing fits. There is a right way and a wrong way to get rid of used games. The right way is to let the consumer lead the way, but give them the path and the reason to walk it.
@Darth, "Shuhei Yoshida stated that "when you purchase the disc-based games for PS4, that should work on any hardware." When asked whether games would require online registration, Yoshida noted that that decision was up to the publisher. When asked if Sony, as a publisher, would require games to be registered online, Yoshida said, "we are not talking about that plan." Wishful thinking for Sony haters to take it the way you stated but you are wrong. It has already been clarified that Yoshida meant Sony isn't going in that direction, as in that isn't a system Sony is going to employ. Try harder with something else. It was very clear to everyone at the Ars roundtable what Yoshida meant as well. And he clarified that comment again the other day. You also failed to look at the entire conversation from which that Yoshida quote was taken. Diver, who works with me did not put that comment down to assist you but rather to reinforce the point that Sony isn't going the MS route. You can keep reading and hoping all you want or you can start to examine some serious facts.
its a copy and paste from your own friends link. I didn't state it. so if the quote is wrong then it is the fault of the person who did. its not wishful thinking. its hoping they don't go that route but the possibility is there if something causes them to reconsider. like I said before. its their system, their service and their choice to change things if need be. they can stop the whole thing in its tracks now but if they sit idley by while others do it then it could get to a point where its to late. also, there is a point to which they can profit off 3rd parties mandating this. Sony turning a blind eye makes them just as responsible as those who do the deed themselves.
Darth MS is pushing the xbox core gamer right into sony's arms, it would be far more profitable for sony not to follow MS and their used games policy. Do you really think sony hasn't considered the ramifications of MS actions to it's core gamers. This could lead to sony having a much larger install base, sony isn't and never was planning to screw that up.
Don't let Microsoft and their buddies in the media sell you this "it isn't figured out yet" garbage. Major Jacka**: "Reports about our policies for trade in and resale are inaccurate and incomplete" Phil Harrison (Microsoft VP): "They would then have to purchase the right to play that game through Xbox Live...it will be the same price" He also already told us about the tie to your account thing....but what does that solve if you're borrowing a game? You just let your friend use your account, don't play any games at the same time as your friend? Bulls**t solution.
I know everyone is responding to zod, but my question is, what does it matter who implements what when it comes to used games restrictions? Isn't the idea bad enough to say we wouldn't support ANY company that would do it? Sure Sony may do it. But MS is already confirmed they are going to do it. Leave the fan boy wars out of it and stay united. When and if Sony comes out and confirms they have similar or the same restrictions, then it's worth discussing the semantics of somewhat vague quotes. For now we have solid quotes to go on with MS.
You know what, I don't give a shit, but I'll remind them that that the bigger SELLER of their system it's gamestop and if they they wanna fuck them, they can fuck them as well and both companies will go to shit. The best solution is to keep hire this generation is going instead of going another route. I for one will but a ps4 and if they follow the M$ route then fuck you too.
Yoshida confirmed the day after PS4 reveal that they had no plan for PS4 to block used games. http://www.vg247.com/2013/0... Major Nelson, your console is a fail! stop turning around and say things as they are if you are so proud and sure your console is the best thing that ever happened
No way I'am paying a fee for used games no way , we seen what happened with EA and the Dead Space franchise us gamers have power when we stick together and stick together we will .
The statement confirms nor denies anything. It's a bit rubbish actually. The point is, why should any console be "designed" to accommodate used sales? No other console in the past was "designed" to accommodate used sales, it was simply part and parcel of the industry.
"We abolish online passes." -EA .... while they snort and snicker away.
One of PS3's game like Burnout paradise implemented the online pass which pisses me off. I regretted buying that game. So incomplete, won't happened again.
"Reports about our policies for trade in and resale are inaccurate and incomplete." This is the problem right here. What "policies"? What is there to even discuss? Just leave used game sales alone! Up to this point with consoles, game licenses were tied to the physical version of the game and could be bought, sold or lent freely. Microsoft's "policy" on this was irrelevant because lawfully, first sale doctrine covered people selling their software to someone else. Microsoft and others (like Steam) have over the years eroded first sale doctrine and consumer rights by placing in their EULA's the distinction that you're not allow to transfer your license to anyone else. This is still a grey area in the eyes of the courts. In the EU it's already been ruled on...company's aren't allowed to block software resale...so what Microsoft is clearly attempting to do is take control of their own resale and eliminate consumer choice in the matter while staying onside with the laws by still offering some means to transfer license ownership. So the fact that Microsoft is even devising some sort of used game scheme should be setting off warnings bells, and thankfully it is!
AGREED! It's asinine that anyone would defend the direction MS is headed with the X1. We ALL should've seen the writing on the wall the way they up an abandoned the original Xbox and the way they handled the 1st DLC from Epic Games for Gears of War. Epic not wanting to charge for it and MS making it happen. Now they want us to pay for everything including sharing or lending games out to family and friends. Yet you have a those that will get in line and defend them to the end. They are so ignorant that they don't realize others, just like devs & publishers did with DLC, will follow. Before you know it our purchases will be for one console under one user account. It's simply insane and ultimately will end up being the demise of this industry.
The problem is that as the x1 is currently designed they can't just leave used games alone. Once you design a system to install to the hard drive and play without inserting the disk you have to have some kind of DRM to prevent people installing the game and passing the disk on to someone else. The easiest solution is to just require that you insert the disk to prove you still own it and do away with all this online DRM crap.
@kneon I didn't know that. That's depressing.
Not necessarily kneon. It's possible, if the 24 hour connection is kept in the console, that when the disc is inserted into another console, the initial install could be marked as sold and disabled for the user. There are some shortfalls, such as a person may never connect to the internet, and the internet would probably be required to activate the software. However, the main reason I think software is installed to the hard drive is because they want to help prevent piracy, and block 2nd hand sales. There is really no reason to have a full HD install on any game, as streaming game assets to a HD buffer is more than sufficient. Now. It is possible for those that CHOOSE to install completely to the HD to have to put up with the draconian measures. But in that case it's an actual choice. Something MS isn't usually that prone to give people.
@rainslacker Your example shows my point, you need an internet connection to implement DRM so that you can verify that a game hasn't already been installed elsewhere. Actually I have an idea on how to make it work without internet but I'll just keep my mouth shut about that as I don't want to see it happen, it would be even worse than the internet based DRM.
As Brutallyhonest stated "you have a those that will get in line and defend them to the end". I think most of us have had those moments where we said to ourselves: WTF, they are using an online pass to hurt used games sales, or WTF, Day1 DLC, and even WTF, this game is unacceptably buggy, so why is it getting high 10s. The problem is that a lot of gamers have been brainwashed into accepting these things, and instead of questioning and boycotting they defend the developer and belittle the gamers who see the light. On the other hand we have the gamers who buy games/dlc that we feel guilty about buying, because we don't want to support companies like EA, but they have our favorite developers under their umbrella and we want to support the developer, but not the parent company. It takes a lot to make gamers stand up and say 'No more', and it makes it harder when the reply we get back from fellow gamers is 'deal with it'. Makes me not want to buy any new console next gen.
poor Vegeta, he makes a nice comment, has 20 something agrees but not a single bubble was given. I think it's time to give the guy a chance... It would only be 2 bubbles you know, he wouldn't do much damage with only 2. ;(
I've bubbled up several people these past few days, but it is never shown. I think that to get bubbled up you need more than a few, and there is a weight system to whoever votes...so some people's bubble votes are more effective than others. There may be some personal reasons people aren't also. Not sure about Vegeta, but I know a lot of people that are usually extreme 1 bubble fan boys have made very rational and intelligent comments lately, but based on past history I would be cautious in giving one out.
need to take bubbles away from darth he has to many
Xbox one is for middle aged nfl & movie watchers.
You see i wouldn't mind if the platforms allowed Publishers to do this off their own backs. Because then its up to me as a consumer to choose not to touch those products with a barge pole. When its built into the system itself. That is where the problem arises. Because it takes MY choice away, and anything which limits what I can do is always a deal breaker.
I think if it's left up to the publisher, it should be marked on the box somewhere, so I don't have to hunt down the info online. Some game purchases for me are impulse, and that would completely ruin it. Not saying it has to be a big ol' sticker, but maybe something like where it shows the game features list for number of players, online, controller support, etc. Something we can just use to get a quick look. Probably won't happen because it means people would pay attention to it, and the publisher would possibly lose a sale, but worth putting out there. Either way, it means my pre-order count will drop significantly until I have the means to find out. I'm sure some website will put the info out there in an easy to find manner.
Agreed. And I also think the drastic sales loss in those games (EA I'm looking at you) would cause them to think again. You know that they would go back to an online pass scenario because well they are greedy bastards :) And if Sony and MS both go this route, well looks like Wii U may actually have a new customer :D
Both MS and sony. Funny how everyone keeps thinking its only MS but sony is taking the same avenue but they are just keeping shut and letting MS look like the bad guys. I would say they are better politicians.
look, I respect the loyalty that you're showing to MS but let me copy a post that I made on an article so you can tell me if there's anything wrong with my conclusions about the used games policy: the reports are inaccurate and incomplete because the info coming from MS is inaccurate and incomplete THE FACTS ARE: -for the next xbox MS will consider the license separate from the disc (they said outloud the word permission) -games can be played from the HDD without the discs FROM THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND: -if a game can be played without the disc then it stands to reason that MS will somehow prevent that disc to be passed around and installed on hundreds of consoles, which is understandable and fair BUT... -how will MS know whether you're are still playing a game from the HDD that came from a disc you still own or one you've sold? -there's only one possible answer: your console will need to periodically phone home (go online) so they will know when to REMOTELY DELETE STUFF FROM YOUR HDD because the disc was registered as sold second hand in one of their approved shops -so if you're console has been offline for more than a certain period (they said 24 hs) then MS will assume that you might be trying to play games from your HDD that you don't own anymore, and since they can not delete them from your HDD until you go online the OS will not let you play ANYTHING until you let your console call home to check if any store has registered any of the games that you have installed as sold before they let you play the ones you still own that's plain wrong and evil WHAT ABOUT SONY YOU MIGHT ASK? FACT: Sony has clearly stated that the PS4 will work offline never having to connect to the internet FROM THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND: if internet is not required then they have no way of verifing that a disc you're putting on your console is new or second hand because making unique discs of mass produced games is not possible therefore used games on PS4 will work the same as PS3 these are facts, they don't need to annouce an plans, from what they made public we can figure out the rest
It actually is possible to make unique discs of mass produced games. Blu-Ray spec allows for an individual serial code, which isn't something that can be copied with consumer level technology. Sony has their RF chip patent, but have said it isn't meant for the PS4, so that's not likely to be a problem. The serial number could limit used sales if someone happens to connect, but it's not full proof. The RF chip could mark the disc used upon first play, but again, said not to be implemented in the PS4 by an official statement by Sony. There may be other things out there. For piracy there is a digital watermarking system which apparently can't be altered by the user, however it's not unique. Whether that's true or not I couldn't say, as anything digital can be offered, and there are no tech specs available to determine that.
Remember one thing: Yes Sony has said that it's up to the publisher. That however is no different to what was at the PS3 where publishers also decided what they wanted to do. The main difference between Xbox and PS4 is that Microsoft is apparently building its system being able to block games while Sony wont implement it on a system level but gives publisher the right to put it in on a software wise (just like this current gen). Unless Sony unveils something different the coming weeks they're on top!
Everything coming out of Microsoft is only making things worse. If that was even possible.
What the hell happened to your bubbles bro? Every comment I've seen you make has been intelligent and not trolling. It's not much, but here's a "Well Said" bubble.
N4G is a Sony fanboy haven, lmao. While people say that, the truth is rather the opposite: liking Sony is all but a death sentence for your bubbles around here. Anyway, it's not surprising to hear a comment from Microsoft that doesn't say anything they haven't already said.
I got bubbled down for saying halo is boring for me. so it's not only sony. Fanboys are the same in all kind of things. He may talked about something considered offensive. Like when there was an article about gay people. I said my opinion and how my religion look at them. They banned me for few months xP. I didn't go off topic. What i said is a fact in my area and they were too ignorant to acknowledge it and they say they have open mind. So sometimes good things turned into bad things in others thinking even if you provide prove ..
If they want you to play used fine, block used fine, just they better bring DOWN the price of games, period. Make games $30 and no used games and I will be fine, I just won't stand to burn $60 on a game I don't like, can't return and can't resell to someone who would like it. They WILL lose game sales, people will think twice about burning 60 on a game knowing that they can't resell or trade in for a fair amount on Ebay or craigslist.
You suffering just like vegeta. If you want to be as strong as goku you have to do more then goku to just reach his bubble level.
Kinda makes you wonder if he really wrote that or some lawyer, or marketing jerk did!
Exactly what I said would happen. People have a problem with the limitation of game use as it regards giving it to others or selling it on ebay. They respond to answer a question having nothing to do with it.
change hes name from major nelson 2 major duffus...ms needs 2 replace him..hes annoying
https://twitter.com/MrJonty... It's exactly how it is present day. If you let your friend/family borrow the game disk, you won't be able to play it on your console because the would have the game installed on their HD. No fees.
I would seriously like some clarification on this disturbing thought I had. If games are tied to one user and one account and your friends have to pay a fee to play thats the equivalent of full price, does that erase you as the primary user? Will you have to pay a fee once they return your game?
I would like people to know that this has been going on with PC gaming for a long time now.. I don't know why it's such a surprise to see it seep into the console market.
..because all I know is the damage is done and now they want to send out the DAMAGE CONTROL police. F-ck you! Your unveiling just sabotaged your console sales and you have no one to blame except the guy that green lit all that nonsense. Tell Sega we said HI on your way to obscurity. PS4 got my money this generation
Stupid, he still doesn't include the fact that you have to PAY an activation fee. For example, If I sold an Xbox One game to Gamestop and someone bought that used game for $30, they would still have to pay again when activating it for an all great fee of $50-60! He also ignores the "lending games to friends" statement, they keep beating around the bush.
One of the reports from this morning (Eurogamer perhaps) stated that people wouldn't have to pay a separate fee to activate a game that was purchased used. The activation fee would already be included in the purchase or something like that. At this point, I think it is best for all of us to stop trying to figure this out and just wait for them to give some concrete answers about what is truly going on. The console isn't coming out anytime soon, so there isn't much need to worry about this yet.
So then it works out that the person selling the game is paying the extra fee. Gamestop is going to give you even less for the used game since they will have to tack on the fee before selling it again. The final price is more or less fixed and they won't want to reduce their cut of the deal so the only place left that the fee can come from is in what they give you for your used games.
Lol it looks like they are compromising almost every core strategy they came up with in the last 2 months
i hate this guy
After xbx one announcement me 2
"Don't blame us for confusing and confliciting information, blame the reports and press." It's like they wanted to intentionally turn this into a PR disaster and, every day, they have to add something else.
Oh nos wait till you see what Sony does stay tuned
What's Sony going to do?
That is the problem. We don't know yet. I'm crossing my fingers for Sony to let MS go alone on this and let them face the wrath of the consumers.
There's a better idea of what Sony's going to do for those that actually look for what they said and what they currently offer. This idea that Sony are following in MS' footsteps is just fanboy talk.