Games already filling 25GB Blu-Ray discs - Harrison

PS3 development chief makes the case for next-gen discs

Launch titles for the PlayStation 3 are already "getting up close" to the 25GB limit on current Blu-Ray discs, according to Sony's worldwide studios boss Phil Harrison, who was responding to criticism of the PS3's adoption of Blu-Ray.

"Already, at our launch titles, we're getting up close to the 25GB limit that we have on our Blu-Ray discs this year," he claimed. "Next year we'll raise that to 50GB, and I'd expect that we'll be getting close to that in the fairly near future as well."

[CG]

"Next year we'll raise that to 50GB, and I'd expect that we’ll be getting close to that in the fairly near future as well." oh please!!!

Phill Harrison you sir are the biggest retard in the sony camp, how rediculous.

[The great 1]

Looser comment, looser comment, you really don't know when you are beat, you sad, sad ms fanboy, what are son of Bill Gates, Peter Moore, i don't know, but you act like it, you can't take it your wrong and that PS3 is better, just face it you are a follower, you buy the newest product; and fall in love with it, i reckon u will dessapear come March 2007; and come back as a Sony fanboy, seeing as there will be no.1! Xbox 360 = Transitional choice!

[kmis87]

Can you wait until the game is out before you just label it as "lame programming," whatever that means. It'll be less than a month before reviews are out, and considering how Insomniac has not released any bad games, I'm fairly certain that it will be a great game.

[drewdrakes]

Ok The great 1, i dont know what a looser is, i assume you mean loser. You accomplished nothing in that, so congratulations on that, you pointless person.

I dont believe a word Phil Harrison has said, to me he is the embodiment of evil. He has lied a lot in the past, and i suspect he will continue to do so.

[FirstknighT]

"LOOser LOOser comment!!!" HAHAHA, that was a good one...damn i love this site!!!!

[shortyNZ]

ill say! and they only take that much cos they put several versions of the game on the same disc!

[THAMMER1]

Sony knows the average person will not use thier own opinions.

[Marty8370]

Resistance:FOM programmers are anything but lazy,they are a extremely tallented team that has have loads of hit games under there belt.FWhy can't u face facts that DVD9 is not big enough for Nex Gen games.U Xbots will be playing multi disc games sooner than u think.PS3/Blu-ray go hand in hand.

[Thugbot187]

Look Face the fact both DVD-9 and BLU-RAY has its PRO'S and CON'S.

DVD XBOX360 PRO'S:
-Faster Seek Time than (PS3 BLU-RAY) Per 1GB 1min 2sec

DVD XBOX360 CON'S
-Capacity of Media

PS3 BLU-RAY
-Seek time per 1GB 1min 51sec

You pick one and you loose something, what it will come down to is how the developer make the tools they are working with work for them. Look at the PS2 it had limited memory but it had some incredible games. The Wii almost as powerful as the original XBOX and Zelda looks really good on it. It’s up to the developers to choose what works best for them speed or quantity.

[unleash bass]

If they are hitting 25G already then, I think, they must be filling them with sh1t. I don't mean the PS3, no doubt that will be great and the games will be also, but the disks must be full of CGI or HD video to use that amount of space. The game it's self can't possibly be that big.

[Arkham]

One thing that I've been wondering is whether or not using uncompressed data instead of tighter compressed data would positively affect processor load. If it's not using resources to decompress, perhaps the processing power could be put to better use. Maybe someone with a greater knowledge of hardware/programming could comment.

[dantesparda]

Decompressing always takes a long time, and thats at full processing power! just look at the PC, unless you are umcompressing really small files (like a few megabytes big, like say 1 to 10MBs), it always takes along time and will eat up all your processing power and you will notice your whole computer slowing down. Now dual-cores really help out the situation, as one core takes on the choir of decompressing (or compressing for that matter). But like you said, you are now eating up a core. And dont forget that one of the biggest determiners of performance on compressing/decompressing, is bandwith and CPU speed (MHz) and those two same factor are two of the biggest factors also for graphics. So I do think that having umcompressed data would be better, but because of space constraints (which all these 360 fanboys dont seem to think exist) they always compress. And also dont foget, that compressing means a loss in quality, so things would also look better uncompressed

[Watapata]

The problem you then run into with larger textures is storing all of them in the buffer for operation. Despite what some people may tell you, this is possible, anyone that has done work with coding an audio player can tell you that, as the buffers on a sound card are many MANY times smaller that the file itself (think on the order of 8KB) and so it is necessary to stream portions in to certain parts of the buffer at the correct times. It can be tricky, but a competent programmer can easilly manage.

[EasilyTheBest]

I cant believe we are back to this stupid argument!!! On a similar thing someone posted a site explaining how much disc space last gen took up on a dvd, it was a great read and concluded that dvd had plenty of rooms for games for this gen...
Also there was another post about some kind of new texture compression that would soon be available, if any1 knows the links PLEASE post them here for the children to read...
Anyhow if i played a game on 360 that had 12 levels and it took me a couple of weeks of on and off playing to get to level 6 and then i had to SWAP DISCS!! OMG OMG what trouble will that be!! Oh and im sure 2 or even 3 dvds aint going 2 cost much more than 1 blu-ray disc.
Oh and another thing, the 1st ps2 games if i remember correctly were on cds only when cost came down did they come out on DLDVDs. Who wants 2 bet PS£ games will mostly be on DVD discs. Unless of course Sony wont allow this..

[PittzBlitz2003]

You are right on disc swapping as long as the game is linear that is. If it was an open ended game such as Grand Theft Auto, it would be a hassel to have to get up and switch discs everytime you changed between cities with back tracking and all. And with the last GTA filling up a good portion of a DVD, when graphics, sounds, and physics are all increased, the need for space to put that information has to come from somewhere. Now the next GTA may fit on a DVD, who knows. Its just a though.

[omansteveo]

Its bc they arent compressing the files and Sony tells them not to in hopes of people going man blu-ray is really needed when its not and so they can say look 22 gigs it isnt possible on any other console when the truth is well yeah it is if they compress the file

[The great 1]

This is really selfish of MS fanboys, basically Sony has created a super disk here, how can that be a bad thing, but yet all we here is smutty petty hate remarks 2wards it, oh yes i sense jealousy!

[Tut]

They are bitter because our discs are harder to scratch =(

[Daewoodrow]

Selfish? Listen to yourself. You sound like you think any competition to the PS3 is a personal attack on yourself. You shouldn't be laying awake at night crying wondering why people arent accepting Bluray.
You would have to be all kinds of pathetic to be jealous of someone's disk. All I know is I can SEE DVD making fantastic graphics, Sony can tell me i'm not seeing it all they want.

[shotty]

Well, Phil I have been playing next gen for about an year now, and oh don't tell anyone my dirty secret shhh "They are on DVDs".

Honestly if sony has filled 25GB disc at launch there is something honestly wrong with sony. Gears of War is a 2nd Gen title for the xbox 360 and it is one of the best looking games and it is even on a single disc.

Well Microsoft is a software company, which kind of ruins sony's claim of needing blu-ray for games. Software only gets better with times, so few years from now, what takes sony 25GB will only cost microsoft 7GB.

You want the honest truth why these ps3 games are so big, it's because of the slow disc read speeds. Because of that, they are multiple copies of the same file on different parts of the disc to reduce disc seek times and therefore speed up loading times. It's helps a bit but not that much. Think about it, if you have a load speed that is roughly 50% that of the competition (70Mb vs 130Mb) you better use every trick you have to shorthen the difference.

[The great 1]

It's obvious that this my be true Sonys need for 25gb is greatly exaggerated, but people need to stop bashing Blu-Ray for what it is, it's a good thing!

[hamburgerhill]

So maybe that's why or has something to do with games like Motostorm and Fightnight round 3 moving oh so slow on PS3! Why hasn't anyone noticed this except people that played Motostorm at TGS! I guess great visuals will come at a cost for PS3 with slow down here and there and some very grey atmosphere on many of there games! Im not trying to bash PS3 but I am trying to find a reason to get one which right now I can't find!

[THELANDSOFSAND]

uh-oh, time for 100Gb purp-ray!

[richie007bond]

considering gow is 12 hours long on dvd9,am hoping Resistance spans 100 hours plus lmao,if there using 22 gig u dam well make sure its 22 gig worth of gameplay,come on whats all the extra space using,is the game going to be massive and take an eternity to complete or is its just sony propaganda to justifie beta ray,i smell a rat a big rat...sony might be able to pull the wool over thier sony fanboy bot eyes,but not to the rest of the world,and dont get me started on phill harrison,him and barbie ken are tarred with the same bog brush,they both taLk CR@P!!!!!!!

[Groom]

How is this so different from the last generation-shift, when games went from cd's to dvd's?

The way you people talk, we should still be running games from cd's.

How on earth can you get more storage-space to be a bad thing?

If you don't think it's worth the money, go buy a 360 (but I guess you allready did that, am I right?).

[Arkham]

"How on earth can you get more storage-space to be a bad thing?"

That's because it's on the Sony side. If it was the other way around, they'd be touting it as a gift from God.

[Captain Tuttle]

is a bad thing when it raises the cost of the product by $150 and causes delays in shipping in return for a marginal(at best) benefit.

[Genki]

is that what your thoughts were when last gen systems were released with DVD drives? That sure turned out to be a disaster now, didn't it? Do you really believe that costs will never go down? Name a stellar peice of hardware that never saw a price drop in the years to come.

Marginal benefit...again, I'm sure you don't think that way about DVD's....don't shun new technology and new techniques. After all, NEW compression TECHNIQUES is what's going to keep DVDs alive on the 360, so explain to me how that's marginal. Face facts: In the world of consumer electronics, costs WILL come down, period.

[Captain Tuttle]

Sony's own people have said that in 5 years all games will be downloaded. What's the point of Blu-Ray for gaming? There is none. It's all about the movies and Sony's movie division. You can think anything you want but the truth is that PC games that are more complex and look better than any console game are still put on DVD's. Bigger hard drives are the future and in that, Sony is correct. Blu-Ray? Not so much.

[Genki]

so in 5 years time all games will be downloaded, eh? Well, even if that were true,(although there's no telling) that doesn't mean that Blu-Ray doesn't have any practical purposes NOW and in the near future.

Again, as I said before, in the world of consumer electronics, prices WILL come down on products that are popular among buyers, so your point about driving up the cost isn't making much sense to me. If companies thought that way, no risks would have ever been taken, and guess what...the DVD9 that you're defending may have never happened. Ever think of it that way? If people always thought in terms of "this is excessive" or "we won't need something like that!", then PS3 would probably be a lot like Super Nintendo.

As far as supposedly being all about the movies, first of all, you've got nothing to back that comment up with, and until you come up with something, you've got no proof with which to say something like that. Even if it were true, which it very well may be, and I know I've said this before. Whether or "ulterior motives" or Sony "shoving Blu-Ray down our throats" is true, that doesn't change the fact that their product has practical uses otherwise. You can't tell me you've never seen/used/heard of a product with a primary function that's just as useful with other things. Again, DVD-9 being one of them.

Where did that PC games comment come from? I made no contrasts of graphic/gameplay quality in my post, but ok. On that note, I do agree with you though, but I think you're missing what I'm trying to get at here. I never said that DVDs were useless or obsolete, I firmly believe that they still and will continue to have practical uses, much like CDs still do. All I'm trying to do is get you to maybe look at Blu-Ray and new formats in a different light, because when you think about, all good new tech starts out expensive, and is usually thought of to be excessive, but in time, it proves it's worth, JUST LIKE DVDs did.

[PS360WII]

If anyones intrested that is ^.-
Okay so the regular Dvd that is used for ms and nintendo is it really a chore to switch discs if need be? Not really, in fact it hasn't happened yet. If it does I will not complain for the lenght it'll take to get to the second disc is hardly a fighting point.
Now for Blue-Ray I feel it's rather nice that the disc holds that much data. You can say they don't compress but if you remember an interview from the main guy for R:fom he said that yes indeed they were still compressing files. Another thing why are CS and HD movies in the game bad???? In this day and age of gaming I want to see some crazy CS's in the game or little hd-movies once I do some hard part in the game. It's like an award! Come on right? RPG's come right into mind off the bat. Just finished a hard arse boss fight and bam I'm watching a crazy cs on what I just did only prettier and more story behind it ^^. It can even happen in fps. Same senario even, I just beat a boss and suddenly I'm watching the glory of my kill in superb hd quality movie and damn if I don't like it.
These things can happen in dvd's just might need 2 or more disc's and I'd be proud to change discs if need be. But when I'm playin that ps3 that i'll have too I might not need to worry about that

[nambo]

If PS3 games are filling 25 Gbs of space as Phil claims, then I hope the games are 3x as good and 3x as long as 360 games. But I doubt that is the case. RFOM is just filled with other junk to make it appear as if the Blu-Ray drives are requires, but in reality it’s just a way for Sony to push its format. In fact I’d be willing to bet that GOW beats RFOM in every category. We’re about a month from launch and Sony doesn’t release information on the length of RFOM and the PS3’s specs. Why? Because they know if the truth came out people will see through their lies. Only a month to go before we all know the truth. The 360 is just as capable as the PS3 if not better for gaming.

[Tut]

Nambo,
Do you realize you are comparing a first-gen game to a second-gen game? Throw more stupid at us, please. hahahaha!

In one year I will come back and compare a second-gen PS3 game to GoW and we'll see how it compares. I don't think it will be good on your end.

Sorry, bud. =/

[nambo]

Tut,

By your argument, when the 2nd gen games come out for the PS3, we’ll be looking at 3rd gen 360 games. What we have to compare is what is coming out now and what gamers will be playing this holiday season. Besides, the PS3 was supposed to be released earlier this year so the development of 360 games isn’t that far ahead of PS3 games if at all. Hold on to your delusional thinking that the only reason why 360 gamers have better games this season is because it’s 2nd gen, but the fact is we’ll be enjoying better games.

[Tut]

Nambo,
First order of business: You are a tool and not just any tool. No. You are one of the biggest ones I have seen from this site, and that's saying something.
Enjoyment of games and determining their likeability is all a matter of personal speculation, so go back to the sandbox with that "my peepee is bigger than yours" stuff.
I never once stated whose games are better not do I give a flying pecker. I care about myself and only that. The release date doesn't change the fact that XBox360 is one year ahead of the Playstation3 in development, which allows time for development to become easier for everyone and the bigger titles to come in. But yeah, Halo 3 was a release title on the XBox 360, right? Haha, you are such a tool! Compare when each system sent out final dev kits and you'll see you are both wrong and retarded.
I am not arguing for a system as you think I am. I am arguing against retarded sh*twads like yourself making our society a much dumber place to live in.

Continue being ignorant, we enjoy the laughter hahahaha!

~

[nambo]

Name calling is the first sign that you’re losing an argument. Keep laughing at your own posts.

[jwatt]

To all the people that voted lame on this artical are just hating.

[beans]

Let's just wait for the system to come out and then judge it to see why that space was needed!

[kewlkat007]

People are saying extra storage is a bad thing. Even I would embrace the extra space.

It's just you don't need 25 Gigs to make a great looking and enjoyable game. Sony might be trying to justify the choice of choosing blue-ray over DVD9, when in reality DVD9 works fine with good compression techniqes.

So 25GB is all fluff IMO. I can't imaging going from a PC game which barly hits 10Gigs and hearing reports of games of 25-50Gigs and get excited. Come on...is this actual gameplay? I can imagine if you have 50 gigs to work with how long a game might be? Or how many maps and levels and so on? It that is true then it's great, but I still think Blue-ray was not necessary for this gen of console, or HD DVD.

We still have alot of life left in DVD9 and compression techniques, and so on. It all comes down to "sonys" strategy. A weak one at that and if the Blue-ray thingy fails then they loose another format. Still more space is never a bad thing. Shoving it down gamers/developers throats to win a format war is a different story. I guess that's why we all bicker.

"Sony's Strategy, not the actual extra space."

[Tut]

So you know all of the benefits extra disc space will offer for the entire duration of its life and the life of the PS3?
Interesting... do tell please. Shower us all with your glorious fountain of knowledge.
We're not worthy!!!!!

Edit: Oh my God! Did poster #19 really say that Oblivion was a great example of 6GB disc space? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That game got more bad reports on the problems it had than that ET game for regular nintendo. Jeese, man. You reached a new level of stupid.

[MoonDust]

And that's what's going to happen. Oblivion=6GB of heaven and bigger than most games out there.

[VirtualGamer]

Why are you guys arguing? Regardless of if you believe the extra space is needed or not at least its their for developers to take advantage of.

To a gamer, does it matter what size disc your game comes on? As long as a PS3 game costs the same as a XBox 360 game and it has at least the same amount of gameplay and image quality, who cares?

[OC_MurphysLaw]

I mean you are right as long as its a good game the data size is a non-issue.

I think for me, what gets under my skin on this issue is how Sony is really trying to push this issue. It just feels like propoganda when Sony comes out touting how so many games are maxing out the disc space and yet from what we have "seen" so far from the games just doesn't make the two equate. Sure they look good, and the game play is good...but they don't look 25GB's worthy.

Anyway, if the game is good i will play it...that is all that matters I guess.

[kewlkat007]

Gamers really should not care I guess. I mean I'm not gonna tell you extra space is a bad thing, cause clearly it is not. I just think Blue-ray is ahead of it's time , and even so it will be old technology fairly quick, space is the factor here. The people that will care are anlyst,wallstreet, and big motion picture studios. They are the one that invest into new formats, bringing new movies out for the masses.

People work on new technology for like 5 years then finally decides to bring it out on the 6th and by that time something new is already or will be on the way. It's also true, that's how technology works but as I said these new formats should of waited like 5 more years IMO.

will the extra space bring us 100 hours of gameplay? well that's wait to be seen. I doubt it..but it will be up to developers. So I'm not gonn abash MS for not having the extra 15 GIGs as we know where MS stands on the HD-DVD issue. Which ever one wins they will adopt. So it's more in sony favor to loose anything. Ofcourse I'm not going to bash sony for having too much space or lazy programming but I just don't care for blue-ray. If you are a gamer and rahter own stand-alone players that offer more and better quality then you shouldn't care much for it either.

Right now imagine having a DVD collection of 200+ then having to go buy all them classics on HD-DVD or Blue-ray. What a waste of money the last 4 years.

[Anerythristic26]

So in other words, they are not using any compression, then saying the game uses 25 gigs. Sony reps are BAD for gaming.

[OC_MurphysLaw]

Look, I get that Sony is pushing Blu-ray. I even will admit that I think the PS3 is going to be a good machine.

What I do fail to agree with is the notion that suddenly games have made this huge leap of data size. I mean really people...over the past 3 years games have been at that 4-6GB range....and now all of a sudden one game is taking up almost 25GB? I don't doubt there is not almost 25GB of data on that disc (otherwise that will be a huge lie that would be discovered very quickly)...my question is what exactly makes up that amount of data? A big part of it could be the fact that they are putting full versions of the different localized games on the disc. Aside from that honestly what could they possibly have in there that is taking up so much space when EVERYTHING they have shown to date makes this game look no better than other shooters on the current market that only take up 1 disc..and even that is not a full disc.

Is it just uncompressed data? Is it bad programming? I doubt the latter as I have a lot of repsect for this developer so I point to the uncompressed data and have to think that is a big peice of it. In the end, it will be the game play and game that will tell us if this is infact a justified use of disc space.

One last thing...I don't want or need SP games to last longer than 15-20 hours of compelling game play time. After that, assuming a shooter, I want it to have a good strong online mulitplayer that keeps me coming back to it. They deliver that, then I would be more than happy with this game no matter what the size of the data on disc.

[PS3 Ultimate]

Games will start going from 22GB to over 25GB next year. I guarentee it

[Anerythristic26]

This blind loyalty to Sony is really , really bad for gaming. I don't consider you guys gamers as you have no interest in the hobby of gaming your only interest is in Sony. If you really gave a crap about supporting the hobby you would be looking at what MS and Nintendo are trying to do. The original games they are giving gamers and the orginal concepts they are promoting. If the PS3 wins it WILL be bad for all of us. You are putting your trust in a company that pushes closed formats , that has no REAL online focus and might not have the money to release a PS4. I actually hope some of you guys can pull the wool from your eyes. It's bad and I know for a fact that alot of GAMERS are with me with what MS and Nin are doing.

[THAMMER1]

On post #4 were you talking to me? Because I think you should chill bro. The games they are putting out are not 25 gigs as a whole. They are all of all of the versions of the game that would be released in all the different regions. You know that. Your just all defensive for the PS3 and I kind off feel you but not really because I was smart enough to get a 360.
PS3ultimate lol

[Thugbot187]

I read the post time after time and I notice that some people are actually making logical points. Such as look at Doom3, Oblivian, and Gears of War how they all fit on a DVD. Hate to say but Doom3 looks better than some of the next generation games on both systems. Then we have articles like the following: http://www.news4gamers.com/... Notice the part where the Nintendo guy says he looked at the games that are coming out on both systems and the XBOX360 looks better than the same games on the PS3, not only that the PS3 games frame rate seem to be a bit slow and choppy. Then notice after that how the Sony guy did not dispute any of the claims. He just basically said he would not buy any of the next generation systems even PS3 at the moment he would wait.

I’m willing to bet the slow and choppy frames are coming from the processors waiting to get information from the Blu-Ray drives (This is only an assessment after reading previous specs on the hardware http://www.gizmodo.com/gadg... ). I would also like to point out while the PS3 has the larger disc capacity it has a slower seek time then the Xbox 360 using the 16x DVD drive. ( http://kotaku.com/gaming/ps... ) With the Blu-Ray Drives having a seek time of 9MB/ Second it would take 1min and 51 per GB, 16x DVD at 16MB/ second it would take 1min and 2 seconds per GB. You have the facts on the Saints Row Team saying the transfer rate was too slow on the DVD drive for the 360, so where does that put the PS3’s Blu-Ray drive with a larger capacity and slower seek time. There is no point in really arguing about the seek time to find information on a 50GB disk taking longer. Point you’r only as fast as your slowest point, hey but who am I to know some much on hardware …

I'm not going to bash the PS3 programmers but I do agree with everyone else why does game size go from about 4-6GB to 25GB, in this short of time???

[OC_MurphysLaw]

I mean seriously, its not just a leap in data size...it's a giant leap. I mean we are talking over 200% here. How does that happen in just a years time frame? Answer...I don't think it really does in terms of the actual game, but rather the secret lies in what they are actually putting on to the disc. English version, Japanese Version, German Version, etc... you get the picture. It will be interesting to see what the actual "game" size is on the disc not including the different localized versions, etc.

[DJ]

Developers on the PS2 were already complaining about not having enough space for their titles, so what makes you think that the HD Era of gaming wouldn't require a massive leap in data storage? Not only have textures quadrupled in size and quality, there's about 8 different kinds of texture now that we have advanced shader technology.

Add greater polygonal detail, higher quality audio, a greater variety of audio, more complex programming, and animation and you can start to see why PS3 devs are taking advantage of Blu-ray's storage capacity so quickly. Compression has been in use for over a decade, and it's not some magical thing that Microsoft put exclusively in the 360. PS2, Xbox, Gamecube, and PS1 devs all used compression, and the PS3 is no exception.

They've been dying for more space, and now they have it. Having every single region/country version of a game does not quadruple the size. All you're doing is replacing relatively small things like text, audio, and menus. The PS3 console itself is region free, which was a great decision by Sony.

[Thugbot187]

I don’t think there is anything I should rethink about what I said. I will however make points of everything you said and debate it with fact. Developers on the PS2 complaining about the size of the DVD media… Please feel free to post so we can all see this, which PS2 developers made these complaints that DVD was too small or the games graphics were limited because of lack of DVD-9 limited capacity? Now here’s one of a many that say developers did complain about the limited texture capability of the PS2 and not the media size: http://ps2.gamezone.com/gzr...

Ok HD Era??? Ok that’s just a gimmick and isn’t new to game development. Games currently on the PC support much higher resolution than what HD can give and have supported much so call HD resolution a lot longer. Notice you didn’t here PC game developers saying they need BLU-RAY because there textures don’t fit on a disc? Matter of fact they are still using CD and DVD-9 to sale there finished games on. Also I would like to see where you got your information about Textures quadrupling in size. This is all speculation… 24bit color is sufficiently rich to represent almost all the colors perceivable by a humans eye. So I want to know how Textures are quadrupling in size.

Audio I can tell you now the average person can not distinguish quality between there MP3 and the original digital audio there music came from. More on this is most people are playing audio from there TV speakers which wouldn’t help with the clarity of sound. http://www.teamcombooks.com... So why is audio growing at such a rate we need BLU-RAY? I guess if this continues Music CD’s will need to be shipped on BLU-RAY also…

I don’t think I need to speak much on CGI because in the past it fit on the DVD’s just fine. I would also have to question any game that needed so much CGI it took up GB and GB’s of space. I think must of us would like to play the game and if we want hours of CGI would go pickup an Anime or a Movie.

Most of what you said is speculation backed up by no facts as most of what is said by Sony Fanboys. I will tell you right now I like some of the games coming out for the PS3 and would like to play them. I own a PS2 with over 15 games, I’ve owned more but have traded some in for over the 15 games I have now. I’m not here to bash Sony, however I will say I do my research before I buy into what companies say about there products because at the end of the day there job is to get me to buy there product so they can stay in business. Sony is making all these claims and honestly they seem too good to be true and go against facts we already know to be true. One example when Mitsubishi Motors said Sony will not make production with PS3, all the Sony Fanboys said this is a lie what do they know Sony said they will deliver. Unfortunately most weren’t smart enough to go and look at the ties between Mitsubishi and Sony to see that Mitsubishi had the inside knowledge to know Sony couldn’t meet production. The article was looked at as a conspiracy by MS fanboys to make Sony look bad. Hey I guess it’s too much to ask people to use a bit of common sense.

[DJ]

as supposed proof that we don't need more storage capacity for our games, right? After E3 05 a lot of developers came out in magazines and talked about how relieved they were that Sony put Blu-ray into their console. They were dying for more space and they got what they asked for. They asked for an HDD as standard and they got that as well.

Oblivion is commonly used as 'proof' that we don't need more than 8.5GB of space. Unfortunately that's just one game, and the developers built that game with the constraints of DVD in mind.

I don't know why it's so hard for 360 fans to just accept Sony's decision. It's not like they're being forced to buy the console. I'd hate to think that jealousy is playing a factor, but the comments I continuously see every time Blu-ray is brought up seem to reaffirm my suspicions.

It's undeniable that most PS3 developers are taking full advantage of the hardware they've been given, and seeing countless people accuse developers of "Lying about how much space they're using", "filling the space with sloppy coding", and other childish fanboy remarks is disturbing to say the least.

PS3 comes with Blu-ray movie capabilities, but no one's being forced to buy the movies. The system still plays DVD movies so technically no one's being forced to do anything; the system just has additional features built in that anyone can use whenever the time is right for them.

[lalaland]

-> Thugbot187

Come on... Slow framerates and waiting for the Blu-Ray drive has nothing to do with eachother. If it was the Blu-Ray it was waiting for, you would experience big popups of hi-res textures and geometry (like in Saints Row). No, the slow framerates are because the devs are further behind in development compared to X360 -- they've only had final devkits for less than 5 months compared to more than 14 months for the X360. I would be more willing to accept you blaming the Cell or RSX for the slow framerates than the Blu-ray drive -- althoug I honestly don't think that would be a likely explanation either.

And you can't actually compare the speed of DVD and Blu-Ray like that, although I overall agree with your point that Blu-Ray is slower. DVD is faster on the outer rim, but actually slower on the inner rim. But for that kind of streaming the standard harddrive is of great use as a relatively fast cache -- something which is not available on the X360 core.

And finally I could ask you, why did games go from 400MB to 4GB over only a period of one year on current gen consoles? When developers has more space available, they will use it if they feel like it. And to me it is better to give them the opportunity, than to limit them. Why should devs spend valuable development time figuring out how to compress assets, when they could spend it on making the games more visually pleasing and fun to play?

And regarding PC's and HD... I've seen very very few PC's and games able to output at 1920x1080 resolutions at a playable framerate. You would surely need very expensive hi-end equipment for that...

"24bit color is sufficiently rich to represent almost all the colors perceivable by a humans eye." -- yet we have no problems with seeing visible banding in even the simplest gradients. The eye can perceive a lot more colours than 24bit -- one of the reasons behind the HDMI 1.3 initiative.

"Audio I can tell you now the average person can not distinguish quality between there MP3 and the original digital audio there music came from." -- well... don't you need to fill in some info here? It is easy to hear the difference between 128bit MP3's and the original digital audio, if you listen to the right parts of the music on a decent stereo. That is why 196bit is all the rage ;-)

But just to explain a thing about why audio is exploding in size. Think 2 channels for standard music... Now think 8 channels for 7.1 surround sound. That is a quadruple of size. Now think lores 48KHz compared to 96KHz. Another doubling of size -- and yes you can hear the difference on a good stereo. And finally, the artifacts of heavy compression are actually easy to hear for audiophiles (contrary to your oppinion), exploding filesizes by a factor of five to avoid them. Audio takes up a lot of space.

Now think of the annoying repeating commentary in FIFA games. Wouldn't it be nice if they could fit four times as much commentary on the disc? They can with Blu-Ray... and in great quality.

Regarding CGI, I would hate to see poor quality SD CGI of yesteryear on my nice HD LCD. SD in Europe is in 720x576i resolution -- HD is in 1920x1080p resolution... That is 8 times the information... Obviously it takes up more space even with better compression algorithms.

Wether you believe in HD or think it worth the extra cost is another matter. I know I enjoy true HD content every day, and I find the difference from SD material staggering.

[richie007bond]

Its funny how the PC being a more capable beast manages fine with dvd9 for its games,PC games are still the bench mark to beat take cryis for eg,DX10 amazing graphics so whats the deal here,just cause sony shoves a beta ray in their console the rest of the gaming world has to follow and make their games on beta ray just cause SONY says BULLSH:T its time you sony fanbots woke up and realise that sonys playing ya......

[THAMMER1]

No one can disagree. Gamers like you should take in the sad and lonly fan boys and rais them up into men.
LOL just kidding but your right.

[zonetrooper5]

I'm not going to buy into this Blu-Ray or HD-DVD crap that they are needed for gaming when really they are not. Most of the PS3 games can be put onto the Xbox 360, its just that every single game on the PS3 is region free so that adds more which Sony is saying that Blu-Ray is needed. DVD's are fine for the next 4-5 years. So what if i have to change a disk, are you sony fanboys so lazy that you can't get off your ass to change a disk, it happened last generation so i don't expect it to change.

[EasilyTheBest]

Speaking in an interview with GamesIndustry.biz journalist Rob Fahey, Harrison decried suggestions that the Blu-Ray drive had been included in the machine purely to push Sony's agenda with regard to Blu-Ray movies.

"It's got nothing to do with movies," he responded. "DVD is not sufficient capacity to power the kind of data consumption, or to feed the data consumption needs of Cell and RSX - just purely as a gameplay device, we need Blu-Ray to supply the kind of data that PS3 games use."

NOTHING to do with movies !!!!
O.M.G The Shxt these people come out with really does me.... HELLO HELLO theres a lot of us out here who aint completly stupid you know.
Pure SONY propagander...
Im no fan boy Xbox360 have had sum right howlers too but compared to the Sony boys my god!!!!
Who the hell are these guys. Come on im still reading about under 20 launch games SUM will be READY sum wont.......
SPRING 2006 LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Just blank it all but please guys even the real sony fanboy fanatics DONT buy a PS3 till Christmas 2007 at the earliest, youll save your self loads and buy yourself sum bargain previously used games...JUST DONT DO IT send SONY a message ITS to EXPENSIVE.
Preach over ....

[Anerythristic26]

Read my post 24.1. As a gamer and a gamer only I have come to the conclusion Sony is bad for the hobby of gaming.

[beans]

I see were your coming from but it is to my understanding that PS3 will not allow you to play used games on it! Now I could be wrong but but I know for a fact I read this somewhere!

[FKN Unbelievable]

First-off a 10-12 hour is not short, not including trial and error. Please don't think for a sec that When blu ray came games are short all of a sudden since a game take up 22GB's. Since nobody played sh1t for a PS3 yet how the fuk do you know that a Resistance won't be long and boring? Cause with those Lame and plain as day weapons i see no replay value in this.

Btw When i first Brough RE:4 on Game Cube it took me 20+ hours to end the fuking game and the game was good the whole way through (Along with me getting up to switch the disc cause i was thirsting to see more.) let see it R:FOM is quality like that cause i know Gears with be. Matter of Fact RE:4 on gamecube still looks better than resistance. The Explosions in R:FOM look like childs play compared to Black, so where the fuk 22 gigs went to with those Generic Explosions? Oh Yeah the Pigeons, Rats and Helicopters flying around in the background like the Developer said.

[DJ]

This is the most common statement made by angry 360 fans, and what they don't realize is that this not only adds minimal data to the game size, it's also a testament to how much of an advantage Blu-ray is over DVD.

All that's really replaced is voice data, text, and menus. The rest of the game is exactly the same. Instead of having a 22GB game, you get a 24GB game once you put every single region on the same disc.

FKN Unbelievable is the best example I can refer to at the moment. He takes potshots at a format by fabricating information about a PS3 game that has had its data size released to the public. No matter how amazing Resistance looks (and yes, it already looks amazing) it will always be attacked by haters that are nowhere near representative of the general public.

[D3acon]

Honestly, this is ridiculous. Cartridges, cds, dvds, blu-ray or Hd-dvd. As each system progressed it needed more storage to cope with graphical and programing storage. Were is the storage in a dvd when you're adding HD to your games? Please people get off the short bus its unbecoming to those that don't have a few extra chromosomes.

So what other options are there? We have blu-ray disks, hey they can also play movies too. We can put game content on the disk and add a blu-ray player to play movies. This is a great opportunity for our movie industry and our game industry, I almost forgot we were a business for a moment.

Harrison already answered this question in another interview not to long ago. He stated the same thing and that the costs for the blu-ray player in the ps3 was negligible. The reason for the minimal cost for the player is because the cell and RSX were capable of perfomring many of the tasks the other blu-ray players perfomred. That came from Phil Harrioson's mouth.

Speed has already been adressed by people who had the opportunity to play the games. Load times were negligible and worst case scenerio is that the load times would take as long as current ps2 games. I don't know for a fact but I belive that developers from Insominac are streaming content. While your playing a level the next level is being loaded.

If you don't like blu-ray the ps3 can still play dvds, so lets stop this bickering on what Sony is trying to shove down whos throat. The argument is pointless and asinine and doesn't merrit discussion.

[LAWMAN]

Except for Gears of War and Assassin's Creed (which is also on PS3), there's really nothing that I can say about my 360 that really stands out to be "next gen." Motorstorm, Assassin's Creed, MGS4, FFXIII, DMC4, and Heavenly Sword are a few games that will truly start to use the potential of these systems.

The 360 has been out for a year, and so far all I have to show for it is GRAW, Oblivion, and Dead Rising and Oblivion is coming to PS3 as well. I have been really dissapointed with the lack of quality games. I am seriously thinking about trading in my 360 for a Wii and some games.

[Thugbot187]

I agree in the future we will need to have new technologies to keep up with the increasing data storage requirements. However many would agree BLU-RAY is the wrong technology and at the wrong time. The reason for it being the wrong time for BLU-RAY is because we have several promising technologies that will yield more storage than BLU-RAY:
DVD/Bug Protein ( http://www.abc.net.au/scien... 50TB(terabytes) )
HVD ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... 3.9TB (terabytes))

So why is Sony pushing for BLU-RAY,

It has taken Sony 10years to develop BLU-RAY technology and seeing that there are new technologies on the horizon coming out within the next two years or less; Sony wanted to rush BLU-RAY to the market so they don’t loose money in all the research they have done on BLU-RAY (Royalties they get for people using the format). Hopefully can curve losses and curve piracy with DVD’s with managed copy controls.

BLU-RAY is suppose to yield disk of 200GB but due to the terrible complicated process of manufacturing BLU-RAY disc its taken Sony quite a while to even make 50GB BLU-RAY disc. http://www.engadget.com/200... This only adds more cost to consumers.

Sony as agreed to the AACS standard to stop or manage optical copies you make from your BLU-RAY disc. This is attractive to a lot of movie studio’s because they loose a lot every year due to piracy. So many are willing to support BLU-RAY and it’s high production cost in hopes it will cut down on piracy and put more money in there pockets in the long wrong. http://arstechnica.com/arti...
I personally don’t want a format controlled by Big Brother Sony:
http://www.gamepro.com/news...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Just looking at those two links and reading you can kind of see where Sony is going with all this and why they would want to push this new format.

Honestly if space is an issue and we are growing so rapidly in needed size for disc from 4to6GB to 25GB in just 3yrs, how could BLU-RAY meet our needs? It only holds up to 200GB why not go with something that holds more and can be more beneficial to us in the future. After all Sony says the PS3 will be around for the next 10 Years http://www.engadget.com/200... surely with the big gains in Disc space in 10 Years BLU-RAY will be too small of an optical storage format to meet our needs. Right????

[DJ]

Blu-ray is obviously going to be around for a VERY long time, probably as long as VHS. Sony's obviously planning to use Blu-ray for its future Playstation consoles for as long as possible.

I'm sure something will replace blu-ray someday, but hopefully that'll be decades later, not years. The jump from DVD to Blu-ray was very fast, but it's important to understand that the jump from VHS to DVD did not involve an increase in pixel ratio. DVD was a necessary in-between, but it's time to move on.

[FeralPhoenix]

Its funny in post #26.3 Thugbot187 complete shatters all your Sonyfanboy logic with legitimate facts, he asks you to show proof of your delusional claims, but instead you ignore him because you don't have links that backup the things you said like dev's specifically asking for more space for PS2 games, and then you go on to talk about the comments like; its just sloppy coding, or the dev's are lying about how much space RFOM takes up....come on DJ, we know there are extreme fanboys on both sides that will say anything, so thats just a diversion from the legitimate comments that Thugbot187 posted. You seem to have a pattern of not responding to legitmate questions....but hey, when there's no legitmate answer who can blame you.

[satanslilh3lp3r]

if its true that some of the games (besides RFOM) are taking up almost 25 gb, thats amazing. hopefully this extra space is used for enhanced graphics, lighting, textures, levels, ect.

[HyperBear]

I voted cool because its nice to see that the devs are taking advantage of all that space and using it wisely i hope, but im still etchy on it, just cause the fact that so games really need Blu-Ray right now. Like all XBox 360 games are done in 9GB or less, and most of them look pretty sweet (COD2, GRAW, Oblivion, Saints Row) and upcoming games like (Gears, Lost Planet, Mass Effect, BioShock, COD3). But thats the reason why i think that Xbox 360 will have an advantage over PS3 on. That they can produce the same type of quality of games, and not using anymore than 9GB. Still having said that, Id like to know why Im watching all video footage of FROM and why are all the PS3's in my town sold-out before I can even ask about them. WEIRD. If Xbox 360 is supposed to be the best of the 3, which i think it is, then why are people supporting PlayStation over Xbox. I dont get it. But w/e, Im getting PS3 by March, the next shipment, and then ill have the 360 and PS3. Cant Wait.

[FKN Unbelievable]

"This is the most common statement made by angry 360 fans, and what they don't realize is that this not only adds minimal data to the game size, it's also a testament to how much of an advantage Blu-ray is over DVD.

All that's really replaced is voice data, text, and menus. The rest of the game is exactly the same. Instead of having a 22GB game, you get a 24GB game once you put every single region on the same disc. "

Until Blu-Ray came out Storage on Video games was never a Issue.No one never said that for FF7 RE2,3,veronica etc So you know what? What i don't know won't hurt me and i liked it better when storage on a DVD9 or Blu-ray Was'nt the main issue. I Just Finished Dead Rising and got all of the Endings A,B,C,D,E, and For all of the Sh1t that was on that DVD9 i could care less as long as companies make games that i can play for hours and have fun (Cause Xbox Live IS at the moment In Matainence mode for the whole day. Probably 100 new servers for GOW,COD,Forza Halo 3. to because they will be best sell and Live Bandwidth killers.). Im A Gamer i could care less about storage and all the other Extra-Curriculary bullsh1t. Im not here finding and giving excuses for why a company want to corner the CD storage market in an attempt to regain money it lost creating some ol' bullsh1t. Show me the Games.

[zonetrooper5]

Well there will be no point in HD-DVD and Blu-Ray when the holographic dics come out and can store 1.5TB.

heres the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Holographic Versatile Disc (HVD) is an optical disc technology still in the research stage which would greatly increase storage over Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD optical disc systems. It employs a technique known as collinear holography, whereby two lasers, one red and one blue-green, are collimated in a single beam. The blue-green laser reads data encoded as laser interference fringes from a holographic layer near the top of the disc while the red laser is used as the reference beam and to read servo information from a regular CD-style aluminium layer near the bottom. Servo information is used to monitor the position of the read head over the disc, similar to the head, track, and sector information on a conventional hard disk drive. On a CD or DVD this servo information is interspersed amongst the data.

A dichroic mirror layer between the holographic data and the servo data reflects the blue-green laser while letting the red laser pass through. This prevents interference from refraction of the blue-green laser off the servo data pits and is an advance over past holographic storage media, which either experienced too much interference, or lacked the servo data entirely, making them incompatible with current CD and DVD drive technology[1]. These discs have the capacity to hold up to 3.9 terabytes (TB) of information, which is approximately 6,000 times the capacity of a CD-ROM, 830 times the capacity of a DVD, 160 times the capacity of single-layer Blu-ray Discs, and about 8 times the capacity of standard computer hard drives as of 2006. The HVD also has a transfer rate of 1 gigabit/s. Optware was expected to release a 200 GB disc in early June 2006, and Maxell in September 2006 with a capacity of 300 GB and transfer rate of 20 MB/s [2] [3]. Since the announcement, there have been no further news or products on market.

[FirstknighT]

Yeah thats not really for games tho, but what if some day it will be. A game that fits a 200 gig disc. Thats when the game will be real...the game will morph completly around you and your instantly in WW11 or playing basketball with the Lakers!!! DAMN I hope this happends before I die :p