Immersion Lays the truth on Kaz

Force feedback technology firm Immersion told Next-Gen today that rumble implementation in the PlayStation 3's controller could be done at minimal cost to the consumer.

Immersion CEO Vic Viegas responded to recent comments made by Sony Computer Entertainment America boss Kaz Hirai regarding the expensiveness of rumble implementation in the PS3 controller.

Viegas said in a phone interview, "[Hirai's] saying that [combining rumble and tilt in a controller] isn't a technical problem any longer, so I'm glad their engineers figured that out-even though we knew the day after [Sony's press release] how to do it."

In May this year, Sony said that the PS3 controller, recently named Sixaxis, would be rumble-free because "vibration itself interferes with information detected by the [tilt] sensor."

Viegas continued, "But now [Sony] seems to say that the solution for the two technologies to work side-by-side is too expensive. … [Immersion] knows of ways to combine these two technologies without incremental increase to the cost. We've helped at least one other party do this as well. It doesn't really make any sense to me to say that the solution is really more expensive. I just don't believe it is."

[zypher]

this whole Sony vs. Immersion situation is starting to remind me of the whole Bleem! debacle back in 1999/2000. then i sided with Sony's p.o.v more. not so now.

[BIadestarX]

Sony should try for once to stand behind their decisions and simply say the truth. Why not say, "we didn't think it was worth licensing from Immersion considering the fact that we would be helping our competitor(Microsoft) since they own a pie of that company." Instead of trying to make it seem like removing Rumble from the PS3 is the best thing they ever done. They keep shooting themselves in the foot; since companies like Immersion will have to say something (like it happen in this case); they do have to defend their credibility, specially when other companies like sony try to mislead people to think stuff that can hurt their company.

[zypher]

true, Sony is being rather moronic about all this. but i don't think it was ever their intention to publically demean Immerson's credibility. in the interview where this was addressed, Kaz never said anything negative about Immersion. as a matter of fact, i don't think he even mentioned Immersion at all. it could be that they don't wanna have to pay royalties to Microsoft: to be honest i'm not even sure how that works. Sony owns something like 9% stock in Square-Enix ( http://www.square-enix.com/... ), but i doubt if any money comes their way from the 360/Gamecube/GBA/DS sales of Squenix games.

[specialguest]

ok so Immersion won this huge lawsuit and got a boatload of money. Sony, still pissed, don't want their business for the time being, so Immersion should just call it even and go about their way.

[DJ]

is nothing compared to what they could've gotten out of licensing fees, and I'm sure that was the whole goal of the lawsuit. They thought Sony would give in.

The loss of rumble isn't that big of a deal. Hell, I play fighter games at the arcade without any force feedback and do just fine. And PC titles don't have it either. I still remember a topnotch Halo player talking about how using a pad without any rumble actually improved his aiming...

Yeah, there's things about rumble I'll miss, but I'll live.

[Daewoodrow]

Come on, think about what you're saying. Not only do most games offer the ability to tone down or disable rumble, the 360 dashboard can now disable it independantly. At some time or another, most gamers have tried taking it off to see if it affects them, and I have personally found I can't respond to anything without it anymore. It might not matter for new gamers, but vererans will have to go cold turkey.

[calderra]

Sony are so full of douchebags that even after LOSING the patent lawsuit, even after Immersion has demoed motion-sensing rumble controllers, even after PSM had the vid of a Pelican controller that did that for Warhawk on PS1, Sony STILL won't just pony up to the truth and admit that they can not legally implement rumble.

Immersion HAS offered to partner with Sony if Sony would just stop litigating and own up to the loss. But Sony is still fighting the patent issue in court, and despite every kind of loss imaginable, apparently they have some appeals left.

Say all you want about how it's not necessary, but if Sony hadn't lost the lawsuit, rumble would be in the PS3 controller. They're trying to justify the missing feature after the fact, and unfortunately a lot of people are gullible enough to go along with their crude attempts to explain it.

And the explanations Sony's come up with don't even make sense independently!

-We can't do Rumble and Motion in one controller.
=Pelican did it years ago for PS1, the Wii is doing it now, and Immersion has offered to do it for PS3.

-It costs too much.
=As Immersion has said, no it doesn't. The Wiimote has rumble, motion sensing, an infrared pointer, and a speaker, and only costs $40. Trade the speaker and infrared for extra buttons, you have a PS3 controller.
=Not to mention Sony has already said many times that the PS3's features justify the price, and that having the best experience is expensive.

I mean come on, even Microsoft settled their case with Immersion out of court because they knew they'd lose, and Microsoft PWNed the US government on multiple occasions. What chance did Sony think they had?

[kikilala]

immersion stop their b!tching.. they're the reason for no rumble for the sixaxis.. and now they want to force sony to accept the rumble technology back.. they are worst than microsoft...

first u sue them and make they pay u money.. then u want them to be licensee and pay more to u.. what a business strategy.. this company is freakin greedy man...

i hope sony stick with no rumble decision and doesnt submit to Immersion demand... the ps3 doesnt need Immersion force feedback technology to be a great machine...

with PS3 launch at hand and almost guaranteed success.. Immersion is desperate to gain attention and possible income source.. when the PS3 proof to be able to make it without the force feedback.. i guess Immersion force feedback pattern will soon be almost worthless..

PS: i dont hate immersion from the start.. but the more they keep b!thcing and forcing for more "undeserved" income.. the more i grew to hate them..

[drewdrakes]

No, greed is sacrificing the environment to make a few more bucks. Or screwing other people over to make a few more bucks. They legitimately made this technology. And they want their money for it. Although, what theyre coming out with next looks incredible.

[kikilala]

"Or screwing other people over to make a few more bucks"

isnt this is what immersion doing to sony..?? first they sue sony (this is not the screwing part, its sony's fault) then they come out with a statement such as these:-

“But now [Sony] seems to say that the solution for the two technologies to work side-by-side is too expensive. … [Immersion] knows of ways to combine these two technologies without incremental increase to the cost"

to make sony looks bad and in at the same time kinda forcing sony to still use their product.. isnt this screwing sony..?? so its true they are greedy right??

anyways, immersion should have keep their damn mouth shut after winning the case... but instead they keep on bugging sony... thats just bad rep man... nobody likes a company like that... unless of course the action of bugging sony is influenced by some of their certain shareholders that involved in this next gen battle *cough* Microsoft *cough*

[TheMART]

haha it's funny

You want rumble this gen? Have to go for the Wii60!

[ronin_oni]

Force feedback was sort of a cool thing back in the days of the PS1, and N64. Since then, it's gotten old, and I don't see a real need for it anymore. Immersion is just being very snide to Sony right now. If Immersion wanted Sony's business that bad, then they could have, oh I don't know... dropped their $90,000,000 royalty fee against Sony, or at least lessened it an ample degree. I back Sony on their judgement with this.

[TheMART]

For real if you think rumble is useless think again.

If I play FNR3 and you get punched in the head it adds so much extra to actually feel the rumble different with the blow, hard, soft, medium.

When I play shooters like Halo, Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, COD2 and soon Gears of War, it's good to have rumble to know you get shot at. No red flashing or red arrow is working better then the rumble. You instantly know to duck or get an action going

When you want to play Motorstorm soon, wouldn't it be nice to have different rumble effects to feel if you would be driving on rocks, sand or in the mud? If you crashed into an opponent or the big rock wall to have a smashing rumble effect?

When there are games like star wars with beaming swords to have an upcoming soft to medium continuing rumble?

It just adds to the game. 10 years ago, now and in the future. Nothing can replace it. And motion sensors have been proved to be nothing more then a gimmick at the PC with Sidewinder from MS, same sensor functions only fun for 5 minutes, then switched off. You don't want to swing the controller through your room. Gamers want to sit or lay on the couch and be into the game, not into the controller or sports.

For fun it's nice. Like having fun with Wii drink some beer, no deep gaming experience, just swinging a bat or racket. That's it

[kingboy]

lol! they trying all kind of ways to get sony involve but sorry it`s too late.They should just let it go..i know down the road sony will look for a solution a year from now with rumble and not with this immersion guys.

[UrbanJabroni]

MS clearly looked at the immersion patents and found no way to circumvent them. Nintendo, through a bit of patent mumbo-jumbo, also has their design locked up. The courts have ruled in favor of immersion in regards to all existing rumble tech outside of Nintendo. Do you not think that the Sony design team tried to come up with a way to create tumble without infringing on immersion and failed?

It may be that there simply _is not_ a solution without paying royalties to Immersion.

[FeralPhoenix]

Why are you guys getting pissed at Immersion?, they didn't do anything wrong. It's simple business, if "you play, you pay"....or should they just let Sony use their tech for free. Sony should have just been honest with their fans and said they didn't want to pay Immersion for rumble. You guys sound ridiculous blaming Immersion when Sony is the one who is cleary misleading/lying about why they took out rumble.....Are you Sonyfanboys that blind?, I mean come on, Sony's reasons for not using rumble keeps changing, *HINT=thats usually what happens when you don't tell the truth. The thing is "rumble" is a nice feature that "adds" to the "feel" of many games, but its NOT like games will totally SUCK without it....but to pretend the lack of rumble isn't a setback for PS3 games is very foolish. I'm sure there are a few who truly don't like rumble, but MOST gamers love rumble and most games are better with rumble, not without it.(*my opinion, but judging by its success so far, I think its a safe bet) Now, I'm sure more Sonyfanboys will say stuff like "I never liked rumble anyway", but I think they're only trying to convince themselves.

[LegendaryMark]

"“[We’d be] doing the consumer a huge disservice by coming up with a controller that is not very affordable,” Hirai said."

What he's saying is that they don't want to put too much technology into the controller because it'll be too expensive. Yet for some reason, when talking about the high price point of the PS3, Sony are very quick to point out that the reason it's so expensive is because it's crammed so full of top notch technology!

Come on Sony, atleast give us the real reason you aren't putting rumble into your controllers. Contradicting yourselves like this does you no favours!

[Retard]

If it kills my battery life to an x factor; then screw it. The only thing I thought was neat about it was from Silent Hill 2 (the heart beat thing) and that was like 5 years ago.

[FeralPhoenix]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but since so many Sonyfanboys have tried to trash me for saying I hate Sony's PR strategy/misleading business tactics, & BS but they always act as if I'm making it up or hating on Sony, well it seems I'm not the only one:

"We can safely assume Kutargi is curled up in the fetal position in his hotel room, crying/drinking himself to sleep with a bottle of Sakai, wishing he hadn't made so many moronic decisions."

-and thats from PRO PS3 editors.....its OK, because like I said you can be a fan of one console and still not be blind when it comes to recognizing BS.....BTW, even the most extreme Sonyfanboys, have to laugh at that quote.////yep, just as I predicted #11 "retard" (no, really thats his name lol) he is basicly saying he never like it anyway...it doesn't matter at all.....well I didn't give him that name, but it fits perfectly! OMG!

[THE TRUTH]

Rumble is great and all but I can live without it. If much rather having something new like motion sensors to enjoy and master than something like rumble that just eats away at the battery life of my 360 controllers.

I mean games like LAIR wouldn't be as fun without these new controlers, isn't next gen supposed to be about new experiences? That's what comes to my mind when I think of next gen! I'm sorry rumble is gone but I'm happy gamers have a new experience to master and enjoy.

Rumble is much more a gimick than motion sensors to me anyways. Just think about the word controller and ask your self which feature helps you control your game better.......

[FeralPhoenix]

and it didn't add anything to great games like MGS series, damm I never realized that it was just a gimmick then.....oh but MGS4 will be waaaaaay better with motion sensing and so it continues, OMG!

[TheMART]

Even if you have read above and know that the Sidewinder for PC was exactly the same but was found out to be only funny for 5 minutes and then switched off?

For real I actually don't believe posts like this. I guess real Sony die hards would shout that if Sony would cut the motion they would say:

"It makes the controller lighter, that's what I want, and it gives the batteries a longer life yeah yeah drewl drewl"

For real. The 360 controller with rumble rocks. Batteries? They're holding for hours and hours and I switch them for a new fresh recharged pair from my power loader when nescessary. Never without batteries. I don't care if they hold 20 hours or 25. I care about gameplay and without rumble it is just a less experience

[Genki]

To me, force feedback isn't a terrible loss for my gaming experience. While I do think it has it's uses, such as for tremors, explosions, damage, and basically any sort of "shock", if you will, it just doesn't do it for me, period.

I thought it was a cool idea when the 64 released the Rumble Pak, but for me it got stale quite fast, but I don't exactly hate it, just don't prefer it. I tend to look at it as a cheap parlor trick(just my opinion here folks, relax), and I'll explain why.

My character gets hit in the face, and my hands shake.

My character gets shot, and my hands shake.

My character gets sliced in the leg...and my HANDS shake...

I'll admit, it was entertaining at first, but it lost it's luster rather quickly for me.

I understand the concept and uses for it, as I stated earlier, but like I said, I look at it like a cheap simulation. I'm not saying I expect someone to all of a sudden release a body suit that accurately depicts damage, shock, and weather effects or anything of that nature, it's simply a feature that just doesn't impress me anymore. Those are my views on force feedback.

Despite how I feel though, I completely understand that there are legions of gamers out there that love their force feedback, and I've got no problems with that, and I think it would be a wise move for Sony to have it come standard with motion sensing in their controller. I really don't buy Kaz and Sony's PR BS about the cost...IMO it's one of two things:

They don't want to pay Immersion, or they'd just rather not do business with them as a sort of slap in the face for the lawsuit. Absolutely ludicrous.

Like I said though, I think it's a good idea to bring it back, as it would be a very easy way to make the pro-rumble and pro-motion crowds happy. After all, those that don't like rumble can always just turn it off....that's what I do anyway.

[gsquad]

Rumble, no rumble…..I can’s ay either way. Yeah it is nice to have on different types of games like driving, fighting, FPS, and sports, but if you think about it, force feedback is kinda old school. To illustrate my point lets look at the newest Fight Night.

(Before I get started I am not saying that one game is better than the other because of the system it is on, but think about the ramifications, how you the player is told that you are being hit.)

On the X360 version of the game EA went with the “tried and true” version of response to a hit. You get a rumble in the controller, and as you get hit more you feel the hart beat and you feel the hits intensify on the controller. And we all know that this works great.

But because Sony took that function out of the PS3, EA had to become a little more creative in how they display to the gamer that they are hurt and about to go down. How they did this is they added a blurring effect to the screen as you get hit and the more you get hit the darker the screen gets until you black out like you would in real life. Also as you are pummeled on one side of you face, your eye will close and you will have less clarity of vision out of that side, giving you more realistic experiences in the ring. (this is not to say that X360 couldn’t do it, just that they didn’t)

Now people could argue that the PS3 version has been in development longer but, no one knows if that is true. (I say this because admitted fanboys from Xbox have been using the argument for a while, but I could argue that PS3 developers haven’t had full hardware kits until just recently like 6 months ago. So we will just say no one knows for now) But the true of the matter is that when developers want some functionality but they can’t get it through old methods they become more creative. This is a benefit to all gamers because I believe that next year Fight Night will get this type of treatment for the X360 as well.

Personally I will miss the rumble on racing games but not much else. (I say racing because I like to drift and on games like F&F, NRSU, GT, you can feel the car pull and push back on turns and while drafting) Now on Madden the rumble of the hit has really lost its effectiveness. Before when you laid out a monster hit you could see the control rumble in your opponents hand and could hear it for like a whole minute, ok maybe like 30 seconds. But what I am saying is you could then talk smack about it to your friend like “you feel that son… you feel that hit” but now it’s like whatever.

I think that because Sony has taken out this rumble feature you will see developers try and find new and more visual immersive ways to express hurt and destruction in a game. I think for one this is great, think about an explosion on screen that instead of just rumbling it makes the whole screen shake and blur and then adding the sound effects that when played through your surround sound, the bass makes you feel it in your stomach not just you hands.

“Jump In” and “Welcom3 Chang3”

[FeralPhoenix]

gsquad I respect your opinion and your comments made alot of sense, but I think you downplayed one HUGE fact, yes you touched on it when you said:
"(this is not to say that X360 couldn’t do it, just that they didn’t)"
-but lets not downplay the fact that all these future creative changes you speak of can be utilized along WITH "rumble" to enhance the experience, and yes....thats a major point....other than that I think that was an awesome post.

Truth, I don't think my post was agressive or attacking you, I was just trying to point out that it seems a little weak for so many PS fans to act as if rumble is just some random feature that doesn't matter anymore, when really its basicly become a standard feature utilized in almost every game.....but maybe my sarcasm was a little overdone, given your comments....for that I apologize.

[THE TRUTH]

I never said rumble was or is bad so I don't understand why you responded the way you did? It seems like your more interested in seeking my out for an arguement than anything else!

Yes rumble added to MGS but not so much that MGS wouldn't have been a AAA title without it! I would say that the success with rumble on MGS would be placed more on the developers for finding new ways to utilize it than anything else!

All I am saying is that I feel that motion sensors will be a greater feature than rumble is now because this is a new generation and I expect new gaming experiences! That's my opinion and I don't see how that statement or anyother statement I made on this subject should be aggresively challenged because they aren't overly outrageous.

I do also stand by my opinion that motion sensors help controlling the game and that is the first priority when it come to the real objective of controllers and what there main purpose is to games and consoles

[Islandkiwi]

I think it's important to note that I don't believe the lawsuit is over yet. Yes, Immersion won their judgement, but I haven't heard about Sony paying them...and that's why you're not hearing Sony admit anything.

Sony doesn't want to be further entangled with Immersion, but the consumers suffer as a result. They should have settled this years ago, as MS and Nintendo had.

I'm wondering when they finally pay. With the battery recall now costing 750 million+, it's not a good year to be hit with another bill.