Metro Redux: what it's really like to develop for PS4 and Xbox One

Eurogamer:As tech interviews go, this one's a corker. Readers of our previous Metro 2033 and Metro Last Light tech Q&As will know that 4A Games' chief technical officer Oles Shishkovstov isn't backward about coming forward on the matters that are important to him, and in the transition across to the new wave of console hardware, clearly there are plenty of important topics to discuss.

[imt558]

Overall great article, except Leadbetter's dig at Naughty Dog. TLOU runs pretty smooth to me most 98% of time. It has framebdrops, but most of the time is 60fps.

So, i expect some shitty dumb response from marcofdeath about eSRAM bandwidth, dual GPU, etc...

Oles Shishkovstov's answers are slap in the MisterX's face and marcofdeath's face. I'm so sorry guys. Somebody destroyed your dreams.

As developer said in the article and we already know this ( some won't accept the facts ) - PS4 is a bit more powerful!

[Artista]

Emphasis on 'a bit', while some tend to exaggerate. Everyone one is aware of this, the proof is in the pudding.

[Kayant]

That's true given the only difference between the two in their games is resolution and sightly tighter framerate on PS4. Although I wonder if things will be so close later on in the life cycle. Still it means that parity between the two will never be there when devs have the time and really optimise both systems.

OT -

"In general - I don't really get why they choose DX11 as a starting point for the console. It's a console! Why care about some legacy stuff at all? On PS4, most GPU commands are just a few DWORDs written into the command buffer, let's say just a few CPU clock cycles. On Xbox One it easily could be one million times slower because of all the bookkeeping the API does.

But Microsoft is not sleeping, really. Each XDK that has been released both before and after the Xbox One launch has brought faster and faster draw-calls to the table. They added tons of features just to work around limitations of the DX11 API model. They even made a DX12/GNM style do-it-yourself API available - although we didn't ship with it on Redux due to time constraints."

I guess it's not called DX11.X for not reason then. Given the way they have talked about DX on XB1 it's odd the situation is actually like this.I guess I eat some crow then :P. Well I guess this was what Matt was talking about with "Yes, you can get more out of the PS4′s CPU than you can the Xbox’s" statement.

[Volkama]

The dig could be considered a back-handed complement. He mentions Naughty Dog because they are as talented as developers get (and of course because there are obvious parallels between the two projects).

As for Mr X, I think he was exiled into the same land as that lawyer that used to show up every time GTA was mentioned. They can talk gibberish at each other, and probably get so worked up that they engage in mortal combat.

[Stuart5756]

"Well, you kind of answered your own question - PS4 is just a bit more powerful"

This comes from a man who has made games. Not some noob in a forum.

[mochachino]

And it seemed like he was trying to be respectful to xbox fans while emphasizing that the "bit" may be more than a bit... like when someone asks you to compare two peoples projects, and one is clearly a lot better than the other, but you have to respect the other person's feelings so you say "his was just a bit better". But you really mean quite a bit.

"You forgot to mention the ROP count, it's important too..."

[Mithan]

He didn't dig at Naughty Dog.

[Volkama]

"Let's put it that way - we have seen scenarios where a single CPU core was fully loaded just by issuing draw-calls on Xbox One"

There goes the theory that Dx12 will have no effect on XBox One development. Seems the majority of devs will see a lot of benefit.

I'm not saying "I told you so", because I didn't. I was saying from the outset that the console API would already distribute draw calls across cores properly. Honestly surprised to read that is not the case.

[Kayant]

Yh some crow eating.... Funny thing also that's with the mono driver which is supposed to be the low-level one. Which goes against some things MS have said about the XB1 especially about having lower-overhead. So basically DX12 will remove a lot of automation and pass that to the developer which will equally more performance because of the developer being in full control and the system not wasting resources having to do house-keeping.

"Digital Foundry: To what extent will DX12 prove useful on Xbox One? Isn't there already a low CPU overhead there in addressing the GPU?

Oles Shishkovstov: No, it's important. All the dependency tracking takes a huge slice of CPU power. And if we are talking about the multi-threaded command buffer chunks generation - the DX11 model was essentially a 'flop', while DX12 should be the right one."

So things like framerate with continue to improve as well as other CPU tasks. So situations where there has been things like shadow quality differences as in watchdogs, sniper elite 3 could be reduced or begone entirely.

[Volkama]

Given what he says elsewhere in the article about bandwidth limitations causing GPU stalls if the CPU is busy, and vice versa, it sounds like Dx12 could carry very significant benefits.

It wont negate the hardware differences in the GPUs though. Even with perfect CPU utilisation and assuming adequate bandwidth on both, the GPU difference will remain and GPU-heavy functions (like resolution and AA) should remain in the PS4's favour.

I would be interested to know which games will be using the already-available "to the metal" API. Same for the equivalent API options on the PS4. Those will show what the console will achieve, but I don't know how many devs and/or 3rd party engines go that extra mile.

He doesn't sound too positive about the unified memory archetecture on both consoles (nor too negative, but it had previously been heralded as a big advantage).

Certainly an interesting interview. Refreshing that someone are willing to just talk straight about their experience!

[Kayant]

"Certainly an interesting interview. Refreshing that someone are willing to just talk straight about their experience!" - Yep even though I only slightly understood the basics. Was a great read with no PR BS or being political not trying to upset either manufacturer. Just pure facts and figures :).

[Axios2]

Very impressive considering the amount of time they had with the development kits:

" - just four months hands-on experience with Xbox One and six months with the PlayStation 4"

Also impressive considering that, due to time restraints, they weren't even able to utilize more resources:

"They even made a DX12/GNM style do-it-yourself API available - although we didn't ship with it on Redux due to time constraints."

[Dynasty2021]

Last Light on PC is proof they've learnt far better coding techniques, which they are implementing onto the new consoles.

Metro 2033 to this day will just destroy any hardware setup. No matter what. This is widely known among PC gamers. Mods saved it somehow and the peformance got far better, but on release, it was THE system killer.

Last Light was surprisingly easy to run, and ran far smoother.

Redux seems to have implemented Last Light's changes so it actually gets 2033 running well now.

I just hate when articles make it sound like it's the hardware that's made the difference, all this fake "please say how awesome the new console hardware is" talk, paid promotions etc.

Redux is the product of coders learning how to be better, not because of the console hardware.

Because the PC version of Redux will experience a boost due to engine coding alterations.

[TFJWM]

"I just hate when articles make it sound like it's the hardware that's made the difference, all this fake "please say how awesome the new console hardware is" talk, paid promotions etc. "

The hardware did made a big a difference did you not see this quote...

"But they are relatively well-balanced pieces of hardware that are well above what most people have right now, performance-wise. And let's not forget that programming close to the metal will usually mean that we can get 2x performance gain over the equivalent PC spec."

[Emanno]

Metro Redux is looking amazing.

[angelsx]

I'm sad that they targeting next game 30fps

[jobboy]

this!

[hello12]

What i have been saying for months and months and you guys disagreed with me.

Oles Shishkovstov: PS4 is just a bit more powerful. 50 per cent more powerful and faster was always a joke. PS4 capability was about 10 to 15 per cent better.

Oles Shishkovstov: Unfortunately I've even seen the other way round, when the CPU does perform as expected but only under idle GPU, even if it (the CPU) is supposed to get prioritised memory access. That is why Microsoft's decision to boost the clocks just before the launch was a sensible thing to do with the design set in stone.

Again why i said the up clock by Microsoft for the CPU was important!

four months hands-on experience with Xbox One and six months with the PlayStation 4 More development time with PS4

Oles Shishkovstov Counting pixel output probably isn't the best way to measure the difference between them though. There are plenty of other (and more important factors) that affect image quality besides resolution.

Sony fans should read this carefully!

Oles Shishkovstov: Actually, the real pain comes not from ESRAM but from the small amount of it. This was always the issue for x box 1.

Oles Shishkovstov: Each XDK that has been released both before and after the Xbox One launch has brought faster and faster draw-calls to the table. They added tons of features just to work around limitations of the DX11 API model. They even made a DX12/GNM style do-it-yourself API available - although we didn't ship with it on Redux due to time constraints.

Hmmm maybe better performance could have been achieved if they had used it!

Naughty Dog can't run its last-gen title consistently at 1080p60 on PS4, lol We knew that already but of course Sony fans said us x box fans were liars for bringing it up.

Oles Shishkovstov: No, it's important. All the dependency tracking takes a huge slice of CPU power. And if we are talking about the multi-threaded command buffer chunks generation - the DX11 model was essentially a 'flop', while DX12 should be the right one.

Again i said this and i was shouted down by Sony fans.

Oles Shishkovstov: Well, the issue is slightly more complicated - it is not like 'here, take that ten per cent of performance we've stolen before', actually it is variable, like sometimes you can use 1.5 per cent more, and sometimes seven per cent and so on. We could possibly have aimed for a higher res, but we went for a 100 per cent stable, vsync-locked frame-rate this time That is not to say we could not have done more with more time, and per my earlier answer, the XDK and system software continues to improve every month.

More time 912p may not be be final.

I leave it at this and i am glad most of things i have said in the past are now been confirmed by this dev to be true.

[Brettman2008]

Yep, every multiplatform game will have better graphics on PS4.

[valet_Smerdyakov]

Nice job twisting his words and passing your assumptions as quotes from the interview. "PS4 is just a bit more powerful." - that's all he said - a polite way to state the PS4 is more powerful. Multiplatform developers are careful with their words not to offend their business partners. This very game is a perfect proof the PS4 is roughly 50% more powerful - 1080p means pushing almost 50% more pixels than 912p.

Other important statements for the the MisterX sectarian clowns to take note of:

"You forgot to mention the ROP count, it's important too"

"Actually, the real pain comes not from ESRAM but from the small amount of it."

"Yes it is true, that the maximum theoretical bandwidth - which is somewhat comparable to PS4 - can be rarely achieved."

"it is not like 'here, take that ten per cent of performance we've stolen before', actually it is variable, like sometimes you can use 1.5 per cent more, and sometimes seven per cent and so on. "

[SpinalRemains138]

Exactly. PS4 is the better machine.

[MonkeyOne]

I still don't see any smoking gun here that states the PS4 is much more powerful than the One.

I see a lot of indications that with better development tools and more time and experience with the various platforms visuals will improve.

I would like to see more anti-aliasing and aniso filtering on these consoles instead of the constant talk of frame rates and resolution.

Creating a smooth image with no jaggies is far more important to me than frame rates and resolutions.

[Volkama]

Yes a smooth, crisp, defect-free image makes a huge difference to me. Jaggies and screen tearing genuinely do remove some enjoyment from a game imo.

But resolution does play into jaggies. Upscaling introduces and/or exacerbates them. It isn't the be-all and end-all of image quality, but it factors in. I believe Ryse does it's post process AA after it's upscale, and that seems to work well.

Unfortunately it is easier to compare raw numbers like resolution and frame rate, rather than unquantifiable characteristics like image quality.

[strangeaeon]

And don't forget the dreaded pixel crawl that I STILL see in current gen games, once seen it cannot be unseen.

[christocolus]

Great article. Can't wait to see what devs do with dx12. This article has got me a lot more excited for games like ROTR, halo5,crackdown and gears

[OpieWinston]

We won't be able to see DX12 full potential till later in the gen. I imagine that devs like CD/343/Black Tusk have early DX12 API, but they aren't building the games from the ground up with it. (Maybe Rise of the Tomb Raider)

[christocolus]

Yeah you may be right. Not all of them will be built ground up but if you look back to the halo5 multiplayer trailer which was shown at gamescom you would have an idea of how good that game is going to be and i also read somewhere about CDs plans for ROTR.they are actually very ambitious this time around. They plan to use some really cool tech for the game&with MS's assistance they could pull it off. Can't wait. Next year will be amazing.

[OpieWinston]

Indeed. Halo 5 Guardians has a ways to go as well considering that's very early footage.

And Crystal Dynamics partnering with MS is good because MS internal teams do a lot to help get what they can out of the game.

I'm looking forward to 2015 but it all starts when September hits!

[Sayburr]

OK, not a programer, or a hardware person... what does this mean?

"...we have seen scenarios where a single CPU core was fully loaded just by issuing draw-calls on Xbox One (and that's surely on the 'mono' driver with several fast-path calls utilised)."

Does it mean that there is a "duel" driver on the Xbox One that wasn't used and that would improve performance?

[christocolus]

Don't know about that but the guy is saying the dx12 update will benefit xbox one by freeing up more cpu power,sharing tasks faster,more efficiently and evenly across multiple cores and developers now also have more freedom to code even closer to the metal . In summary the xbox one will be able to do alot more than its currently doing now. It will definitly improve performance.

[quenomamen]

Take PC version scale back = PS4 version
Take PS4 version scale back = X1 version

[funkybudda]

Oles Shishkovstov: Well obviously they aren't packing the bleeding edge hardware you can buy for PC (albeit for insane amounts of money) today. But they are relatively well-balanced pieces of hardware that are well above what most people have right now, performance-wise. And let's not forget that programming close to the metal will usually mean that we can get 2x performance gain over the equivalent PC spec. Practically achieving that performance takes some time, though!

I think the quote about to shattered all the myth of console powers by the PC mustard race...