Learn Your Lesson Guerilla Games?

There was recently an article posted here on N4G that Killzone 3 has been selling less than what Killzone 2 (KZ2) did around its launch date ( http://n4g.com/news/729292/... While the validity of the exact numbers can be disputed at this point, the general statement is likely true.

So this is where the main point of my blog comes in, but first a little background. I bought Killzone 2 a little late in its lifespan (the summer of 2010) and thoroughly enjoyed the single-player and its gritty presentation and graphical prowess. But of course, the hook of most FPSs these days is the multiplayer. I can easily say that while I don’t spend much time with it anymore, it’s one of my favorite multiplayer FPSs. The main draw for me was the nature of the controls. Some called it sluggish, but I relished at the opportunity to master my skills and best my opponents. It truly took practice and skill to down enemies. The semi-realistic recoil and bullet spread encouraged burst firing over long distances, as opposed to the ability to full-auto an assault rifle across a map and kill a player instantly (Call of Duty). Even, in my opinion, the most noob-friendly weapon ever conceived, the shotgun, took precision and care.

That being said, I very much looked forward to the Killzone 3 public beta (really a demo). I was impressed with the crisp visuals and the stealth kills were very satisfying to pull off. But of course, something near and dear to me was missing, but I knew it was coming. That’s right; the weighty feel that many bashed the game for had been nerfed. I don’t know about you guys, but that weight for me was a signature of Killzone 2. It added much to that sense of brutality that made the title so deserved – Killzone. I appreciate Guerilla Games’ (GG) efforts to appease the community, but I feel this was also their biggest fault. I very much do believe that this was a vain attempt to appeal to a larger crowd and thus, boost sales. But what’s this? It apparently has not.

It seems the very people who whined and complained about the “problems” of Killzone 2 didn’t even come back for the third entry, despite GG’s willingness to “fix” the game for them. So what did this essentially do? For gamers like me – those who appreciated the masterpiece that was KZ2 and dedicated time and practice to the game are met with (if you’ll pardon my phrasing) noobified gameplay. I do understand that GG tried to find the best of both worlds with KZ3, but to me, it was a transparent attempt to bring in the ADD kids who couldn’t be bothered with playing and learning how to play a game that’s actually different from the rest.

I’m not bashing Killzone 3. I thought the demos were fun and still contained that visceral violence that the series has become known for. But I can’t keep myself from thinking: How long will it be until developers stop trying to appease people who don’t even appreciate the work they put into their games? How long will it be until developers are confident enough in their product to stand up and identify the true fans and stop stressing over the random people who trash the game just because it doesn’t play the way they demand it to? Developers, please take note of this. Any true Killzone 2 fan would know that the weight was the icing on a beautiful product, and it certainly could have had a place in the already-great Killzone 3.

For someone with a similar opinion, hit the link below.

http://n4g.com/news/728356/...

[GodofSackboy]

Omg, the whole world tore GG to pieces for the weight in KZ2, so they fix it, and everyone still hates it. Personally I love Killzone 3 controls, they are perfect.

GG can do no right in the eyes of gamers, same as Zipper...-_-

[rezzah]

If by the whole world you mean everyone other than me then sure.

I never had a problem with the game from day one. People just fear change in general. Which is why they disliked the new FPS KZ2. It wasn't like COD4 or Halo 3.

That is why they didn't like it, because they weren't use to the control nor did they plan on getting use to the new gameplay system.

[soundslike]

Gameplay is fine, although I'm sure some other people are complaining about that. My only gripe is the acceleration curve on the aiming stick.

If that was customizable I'd be all in. The difference between slight right-stick movements and 100% right-stick movements is too great. That's a personal preference and should be able to be altered.

[--------]

Agreed.

[dinkeldinkse]

Along with the controls, the difficulty of the SP was noobified for the babies.

I know I am in the minority, but I think the controls in Killzone 2 were damn near perfect. That's why I am probably done with the FPS genre after Resistance 3. The masses won't be satisfied until every FPS is a pile of shit like COD.

[jadenkorri]

i have the trophy on killzone 3 finishing on the hardest difficulty yet dont have it for killzone 2. Killzone 3 was noobed sp wise, i never played multiplayer in killzone 2 too much as i was playing MW2 mainstream at the time.

[Raf1k1]

I agree with what you've said in your blog. Killzone 2s weighty controls were awesome. For me the controls make K2 what it is and without them it's just not as good. K3 multiplayer is now much more generic than it should have been.

Killing people in K2 was so much more rewarding since it took time and skill. In CoD killing someone is just something that happens on a by the second basis and has lost a lot of meaning as the main thing that keeps you playing is leveling up. That's why they now allow you to hit level 70 and start all over again because you still feel like you're progressing without which you'd very easily get bored of CoD.

I really think they should have stuck with it and carved out their own following of gamers.

[PhoenixDevil]

I agree with you as well, and my fears truly were realised, I appreciated KZ2 for what it was and have not purchased KZ3 as both PS+ beta and open public beta disappointed me, while having the best graphics is a very nice asset just cannot carry the game alone

If your interested in my thoughts just after the PS+ beta then click this http://n4g.com/user/blogpos...

I was praying to be wrong with what I said still KZ2 is there if I want to play an amazing and skill full game :)

[MrBeatdown]

I loved the KZ2 controls. The worst part of it is that they almost made it into the final game. I played the closed beta and that had controls that felt just like Killzone 2's. It felt perfect. Unfortunately they had to go and change it. I just don't enjoy it as much now. I bought it, played a few co-op missions and a bit of multiplayer and haven't touched it since. I plan to get a Move, which I'm hoping would make the controls more appealing to me. As it is, it just feels like Call of Duty, and it doesn't feel right for Killzone.

What irritates me is that this isn't the first time this has happened. Sucker Punch tried changed the appearance of Cole in Infamous and everyone bitched. Now, the new design is awful. It's just a bald guy with a giant scar now.

I wish developers would stick to their guns a little more rather than try to appease the idiot masses.

[shadow2797]

"What irritates me is that this isn't the first time this has happened. Sucker Punch tried changed the appearance of Cole in Infamous and everyone bitched. Now, the new design is awful. It's just a bald guy with a giant scar now. "

That's your example? Sucker Punch only changed the design of Cole because all the reviewers (and apparently some gamers) complained about him (like you're doing now). After they CHANGED him, everyone was in an outrage and complained, so Sucker Punch changed him back to his ORIGINAL design(what you want GG to do for KZ3's controls). And you say THAT was the mistake? That example runs completely counter to your argument.

"I wish developers would stick to their guns a little more rather than try to appease the idiot masses."

Amen. Glad SP went back to their original design.

[MrBeatdown]

There's obviously a fine line here. Nobody wants devs to ignore criticism. But it doesn't mean devs should accept all criticism without making their own judgment as well.

The first redesign of Cole seemed to be something that Sucker Punch wanted all along, as even they thought the original Cole was a weak character. With the re-redesigned Cole and Killzone 3's controls, it seems less like an attempt to fix something that was broken, and more of an attempt to appease a vocal minority who just complained because it wasn't what they like.

[bunfighterii]

Agree.

[EvGar]

I was in the same boat up until I actually played Killzone 3 for myself. Controls are controls, and at the end of the day, I can still shoot dudes.

[GSpartan777]

This is what happens when you go against your root, you lose a good number of the people who supported you. What they ended do was turn Killzone 3 generic feeling FPS. Having a game be noob friendly is not bad, but it has to come to a certain extend because the hardcore is what is going to keep your game alive and continue playing it while others move to something else. And Guerilla decided to completely ignore that. Those who never cared for Killzone don't buy KZ3, those who didn't like KZ2 didn't come back for KZ3 and the hardcore who enjoyed KZ2 probably got turned off by all the changes made playing the beta/demo and probably didn't end up caring for KZ3.

[thebudgetgamer]

yeah, learn that if you do things different from everyone else people will trash your game, and even if you conform to what the complainers want you will be bashed for being like everyone else.

good luck.

see insomniac games.

[somethingstrang]

For those who think the change of controls ruined the game:

You are then admitting that the KZ series had fundamentally average gameplay mechanics if something trivial like the weighty aiming (basically a sensitivity/turn acceleration tweak) issues can ruin it completely

[MidnytRain]

As I suggested in my blog, KZ3 was a very polished product overall and plenty of fun. The problem is that they essentially made the game easier and friendlier in order to draw in people who didn't want to practice and improve, but apparently, that hasn't had the intended effect. As far as gameplay *mechanics*, KZ2 was average. It didn't do anything particularly innovative, but it was so polished, immersive, and visceral that it was a huge reward when you felt yourself improving. That is what's missing from KZ3.

[blackburn5]

What annoys me about all these complaints is that everyone b***hed and moaned on and on about KZ2 even going as far as announcing it unplayable and stopped playing it. Now that GG tried to do something else suddenly everyone is saying that 'we preferred the KZ2 way' Why in the name of all that is sweet then did you complain so much then? Why didn't people say 'GG you did good. Keep it mostly like this and make some minor changes for KZ3'. No. You make them think that they messed up and they change it.

I understand the missing features gripes (that they are patching in) but the class, map, SP, control,gun griping gets on my nerves. Let's face it. Gamers are some of the whiniest people alive and are never satisfied. No matter what GG did we would have to listen to the crying of whiny,clingy fanboys.They try to listen to what you say, like ND and Poly did but you never stop. EVER!

@ GenoZStriker. That is BS. they didn't go against their root. I was because of the ungrateful people who played KZ2 that they changed it. They had no choice but to go with the majority. What were they supposed to do? Make the game for the few people that remained playing KZ2? Stop talking crap.@ thebudgetgamer. Thank you. That sums up what I mean to say perfectly

[dinkeldinkse]

They pissed off fans for crybabies that probably have not and will not play Killzone 3. The reason everyone thinks that everybody thinks Killzone 2's controls suck is because the haters are vocal and the supporters are not because the supporters are enjoying the game.

[shadow2797]

"the haters are vocal and the supporters are not because the supporters are enjoying the game"

The same could be said in this case, could it not?

[dinkeldinkse]

I don't hate Killzone 3, I just feel some of the changes are a slap in the face. Guerilla Games changed (actually noobified) most of the stuff I loved about Killzone 2.

[shadow2797]

When did they take the weight out of Killzone 3? Last time I played, it was still there. Toned down from KZ2? Sure. But it's not absent, there's still inertia and weight to the movements. At least BFBC2 level, maybe more.

The reason KZ2 sold better than KZ3 is because it was hyped to high heaven. It was the most hyped game for nearly 3 years. And then it disappointed a lot of people. I loved it, but a lot of people didn't.

KZ3 didn't get nearly as much hype. Also, a lot of consumers felt like they got burned on KZ2, they weren't going to fall for it again. That's why it didn't sell as well.

So did you buy KZ3, or not? It sounds like you're basing your impressions on the beta. I have a feeling most of the hardcore KZ2 players still bought KZ3. That small minority likely isn't the people not buying KZ3, it's the more casual players.

[MidnytRain]

I didn't say that the weight was gone, I said that it had been nerfed. It's still there (barely), but it doesn't play into the way you have to play nearly as much as it did in KZ2. I think I speak for others as well as myself when I say that when I pick up a DualShock 3 for KZ2, I play it differently than any other game; I had to in order to do well.

[Chapulin]

I love Killzone and for K3 I got the Helghast edition. The only thing I did not like about K3 is that it did not have enough maps for multiplayer. Other than that they amazed me how much they did with it (3D and move support).

[BlackTar187]

The minimal maps and always playing the kz2 map made me put the game down MP wise. I played the kz2 map for like 3 hrs straight leaving multiple times to get different maps. I think it was a glitch but i ran out of patience.

I can't help but start to get bored of shooters(FPS)

[xDaRkModEx]

I don't know about you guys but every fps game I love to play are the ones that feel smooth. Letting my muscle memory do the job. KZ2 was not in that category.

I played KZ2 for a long time but I got tired dealing with the sluggish gameplay. I know GG wanted the player to feel like if they had 300 lb on them but the problem is that in reality the human body over time will get use to the weight. But in the video game the human body can't get used to digital weight.

Just my 2 cents. I wont lie KZ2 was perfect in every other way but I'm not playing a game to look at. It's the interaction what I really care about.

I wonder hoe GG gonna make the player feel the 300 lb with the move.

[BlackTar187]

Ive marched alot with weight. The human body barely gets used to carrying 150lbs you always know its there its slows you down and is very sluggish no matter how long you've been carrying it and over time on the same hike it actually is the opposite you feel it like its 600lbs.

[lareka]

Well said. I dislike kzone 3 as a huge kz2 fan mostly because of the weight problem and the game being more casual. As they say " if it ain't broken, don't fix it " . You may check my post a few days ago about kz3 http://n4g.com/user/blogpos...

[IHateYouFanboys]

people like you are confusing "weighty controls" with INPUT LAG.

Killzone 3 has the exact same "weighty" controls that Killzone 2 has - the only difference is it now doesnt take 200ms between pressing a button and having the action occur on-screen. they removed the extra 60-70ms of input lag that a 30fps shooter shouldnt have in the first place, which as Guerilla Games even said was a TECHNICAL PROBLEM and NOT a design choice in Killzone 2.

have you ever played Battlefield Bad Company 1 or 2? they have the same, if not even MORE "weight" to their controls than Killzone 2 - the difference is, again, that they dont take 200ms to put your button presses into the game.

Killzone 3 still has the inertia effect added into the aiming, it still has different aiming speeds for guns based on their weight/size, and it still has the slight input lag for jumping - all they did was remove the extra UNINTENTIONAL input lag from the controls. the "weighty controls" are still there, 100% unaltered.

if you prefer input lag, well thats a whole other story. ive never met anyone that prefers their controls to not be as close to instantaneous as possible though, as itd be like preferring your car to turn half a second after you turn the wheel. ie. stupid.

[MidnytRain]

My mistake, but as Gertrude Stein said, a rose is a rose is a rose. Regardless of the exact cause of the control difference, it still has the same effect. If you could provide a source, I'd like to know if the camera movement was technical problem. If it was, it surely would have been patched after 25 months, wouldn't it? Why would GG just leave it there and say "screw it"?

I have played Battlefield: Bad Company 2, which is why I would want the controls in KZ to be different; I don't like playing two different series that have the same feel.

Also, your steering wheel example doesn't line up properly with KZ2's controls. Having a delayed steering wheel could kill me. I enjoyed Killzone's delayed camera for functional challenge and uniqueness.

[IHateYouFanboys]

one source: http://www.destructoid.com/...

Senior Producer for Guerilla Games Steven Ter Heide: ""Controls are very important and have been quite the challenge," he says. "There still is some confusion about the ‘weighty’ feel and lag. Those two things are different. We removed the lag completely. This means that when you press a button or move a stick, things happen. This is instantaneous, as it should be. This was a problem with Killzone 2 that we in part remedied with a patch. "

the problem obviously wasnt just something that could be patched to be fixed. it likely was something that required some base level engine re-write, and they cant just change that after release. the "in part remedied with a patch" part of the quote is related to the 'precision mode' update. all this did was remove the enormous dead zone of the controller, so as soon as you moved it, it registered that as a move (and then 200ms later the game responded to it).

"I don't like playing two different series that have the same feel. "

so if one series gets the feel just right, like Battlefield Bad Company 2 did in most peoples eyes, you want other games to be different just for the sake of it? the sign of a good control setup is that you never actually notice the controls - it all just works and you dont have to think twice about it. Killzone 2s controls didnt work. when you literally had to try and anticipate when you were going to have to shoot/move so you could press the button a split second before that time, the controls are not good.

my example lines up 100% correctly with KZ2s controls. both are examples of input lag. it doesnt matter if one is a video game and one is real life, input lag is input lag.

" I enjoyed Killzone's delayed camera for functional challenge and uniqueness."

ok well youre one of the strangest people ive ever heard of. again, making something different and difficult for no reason other than to be different is not a good thing. making a game artificially harder by making the controls unresponsive is a terrible, terrible thing to do. it doesnt make people 'elite' at games if they get good at it (like lots of the hardcore KZ2 crowd think it does), it just means they kept playing. other people, that have spent years/decades of playing games with no noticable input lag got turned off by it - as they rightly should - and just said its not worth their time. doesnt mean theyre worse at games, it just means theyre not going to put up with rubbish controls.

[MidnytRain]

I don't want games to be different for the sake of it; at the end of my post I said if it provides a functional challenge and uniqueness then I'll give it a shot. The delay wasn't so large that it required constant forsight (unless one has slow reflexes, I can show you if you add me) , but I can understand that you didn't like having to be so alert, although I personally never had to anticipate when I had to react. This could likely be attributed to the fact that everyone else had the delay as well.

Your example does relate to input lag, but again, while one is challenging and fun, the other puts my life in jeopardy.

I wouldn't consider myself strange because the majority of commenters on my blog feel the same way. I don't think it was artificially difficult because with practice, you could become better. You say it doesn't make a person elite if they become good players, but isn't that what an elite player is? Being good by playing longer is the natural process of earning skill. As I said before, the overall draw to it was that it made me play differently while still giving me the sense of reward.

Also, those experienced players you mentioned are the kind that I encourage to play a game like Killzone. Just because the controls are not to your liking doesn't mean they're rubbish. There are people still playing KZ2 on PSN, so I'm sure that they enjoy the game, which must mean it has a redeeming aspect.

[Holeran]

I couldn't of said it any better myself IHATEYOUFANBOYS. In real life I would hate to have to wait a few milliseconds to turn my pistol after my brain was telling me to. In real life that would probably lead to your demise real quick.

[ZombieAssassin]

I'd say Kz2 is better overall than Kz3. It seemes like they took a lot away. For starters I loved how the controls felt, they were different from all the other FPS games out there. Then they took away the spawn grenades and the ability to easily join someones squad during a game. They should of also allowed Warzone on all maps like in Kz2.

I don't think Kz3 is a bad game but I'm not going to buy it until its around the $30 price range as I don't think I'll play it as much as 2.

[pupa]

Fully agreed on the first part. As for not buying KZ3, shame Your loss for now.

I miss the Spawning dynamics. All GG had to do is limit the spawning away from bases to curb base camping. Yet base camping in KZ3 is just as bad. It's all up to the team to work together and stop it. but alas it's mostly "All for myself", teamwork is non existent for most of the games.

I also miss the ease of squad making. One advantage was that if you somehow lost the link you could always return to the same game (minus Xp) if you were part of a squad.

Anyway I tried the latest Socom Beta, what a lot of crock as compared to Killzone.

[InfiniteJustice]

I have to agree in the sense that I liked KZ2 multiplayer more than KZ3 multiplayer... And with the point you made about GG changing things up due to complaints from people who probably didn't even buy KZ3.

However I do think gamers just love to complain about any little thing lol, like people have said, being a developer these days essentially means you can't win 100% since there will always be one or two fools on a forum somewhere bashing the hell out of your game :/

Anyway, well written, enjoyed reading

[Holeran]

I've played every First person shooter out and for me I never was a fan of COD controls but I most certainly didn't like KZ2 controls (even though I got over 7,500 kills on KZ2 multiplayer which means even though I didn't like it much I still played it). KZ3 hit the nail on the head for me control wise. I love it after speeding up the x,y speeds a little bit. And NO it does not remind me of COD in control feel. It to me is the definitive First Person Shooter on console at the moment.

[Holeran]

I get disagrees for my opinion?

[unkn0wn]

Why not? It's an opinion, I don't disagree with it, but I'm sure other people do. You want some cheese with that w(h)ine?

[shadow2797]

I can understand why you feel that way. Luckily, KZ2 is still around to play.

However, personally, I prefer KZ3 a lot more. And it's not just the difference in the controls, I can play both games just fine. It's the manageable numbers that don't turn into cluster****s quite so easily or often. It's not having to play Radec Academy relentlessly because it's the only map most people like to play. I also prefer the weapons, and their variety. And personally, besides Blood Gracht (basically a KZ2 map), there isn't a single map that I dislike in KZ3. Guerrilla Warfare is nice, as is Operations.

I know it's not really a popular opinion on this site, but I love KZ3. Visually, and in the campaign for the most part, I probably prefer KZ2. But I like the MP in KZ3 more.

[pupa]

Therefore I still play KZ2. I hope GG will never stop the support. I love killing glitchers behind the wall. I love the KZ2 controls. In KZ3 it's just aim and kill, no much skill. Do not get me wrong, kZ3 is fine but I wish we had the option of using the KZ2 "weightiness" as an option, that would make for a perfect game experience and truly show who is who. BTW my most played game in KZ3 is Blood Gracht.

[Trroy]

Does anyone else see the irony in griping about KZ3, when Halo and CoD basically rule the FPS roost?

I mean, by comparison, KZ3 is awesome -- yet people bash it, and not the popular competitors that it trounces so easily. Wierd.

I guess the Halo/CoD-popular-crowd brainwashing works pretty well.