HolyOrangeCows (User)

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"Is the Socratic method a method of genius?"

The Moderation on N4G is Ridiculous

HolyOrangeCows | 1223d ago
User blog

For almost 2 years, I have visited N4G for the latest video game news and content (Even if half of the submitted articles are garbage). For 2 years, I pretty much just ignored the goofy inconsistencies and bias from the moderators. But when I was reduced to 2 bubbles in a few days for posts that HARDLY deserved what moderators marked them for, I felt that I could no longer hold my tongue.

Frankly, I don't care about my bubbles; it's the ridiculous reasons why they were taken that strike me.

Bubble #5: Labeled as "Trolling" - An article about Kids and Kinect. In a nut shell, I said that children have incredibly low standards, and I was sick of seeing people who were NOT the target audience, get so touchy in defending it. Unfortunately, I do not have the link to this one.
Bubble #4: ( http://n4g.com/news/661871/... ) Labeled as "Trolling" - I mentioned that it was silly that a first party was using a third party to find these numbers, and I went on to call out Microsoft's inconsistency in reporting sales numbers.
Bubble #3 - ( http://n4g.com/news/662462/... ) Labeled as....."Spam"?! - This one absolutely disturbs me. I was labeled as spamming for saying that Xcom was not an Xbox 360 exclusive, as the site had claimed. I'd love to the meet the guy who could justify calling that spam.

I would like to stress that N4G Moderators control bubbles, not the community. Every time you hit a bubble, you are simply making a suggestion. I have an image which will make this quite clear (See comment 1....it didn't seem to have posted here). In it, the mods choose to give a "well said" to someone that is supporting Kotaku completely falsifying information, while a post with unanimous agreement goes unacknowledged
(43 agrees, 0 disagrees!).

Those of you who squabble about which fanboy "owns" N4G needs to change their perspective. N4G is controlled by the moderators, who are absolutely not always fair in their judgments, even perhaps, to the point of foul play.

HolyOrangeCows  +   1223d ago
The image didn't seem to have posted, so here it is.
http://img249.imageshack.us...

This is a plea to both N4G and its community. Something is not right about how things are done, and it needs correcting.
Thank you.
-Alpha  +   1221d ago
I feel the same way when it comes to people spamming disagrees instead of arguing back. While I find the community to be the problem it is clear users like you have an issue with the mods.

Sorry that you had to get moderated like that. Will try to bubble you up when I can if I see fit.

But the whole mentality of the site is pretty broken because the majority simply ruin it. Unlike a forum, discussion is dead and stagnant because people hide behind bubble degrading and disagrees. This site is simply run by a majority and the discretion of mods, and though there is nothing wrong with that initially (mods are needed and the majority ought to have some common sense though I don't think they do) there is the issue of power going to improper users.

I think for the most part the system works fine, but it's not an ideal set up for proper discussions.

I don't know how the mods work or what goes behind their decisions-- no system will ever be perfect to run a proper society of users, but hope that you get things sorted out or come to an understanding. Good luck!
#1.1 (Edited 1221d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(4) | Report | Reply
darthv72  +   1221d ago | Well said
@hoc....
I have been told before that it isnt what you say, it's how you say it. Unfortunately, for some, it is difficult to convey the right emotion or emphasis in what is being "typed" because people perceive things at their own pace.

I have read many MANY comments that I have thought...maybe they should have stopped at that point. It is easy to get wrapped up in something like this when we all have differences of opinions. No law against that. It is when the opinion crosses the line of respect that it becomes an issue.

Where that line is, is different for each mod. I would like to think of them in a stance of neutrality while in moderator mode. They can have their own personal views of one side or the other but not in representing the "voice" of the site.

Kind of like somebody doing their job and then when they are off, they can be themselves. I dont know if there is a specific code they follow while on the job but I do know it happens. Sometimes we can let personal views cloud professional judgement.

Having read through your comments and ones specific to me it is easy to see you are dedicated to your platform of choice. I can respect that. Sometimes (we all do it) we can take things just one step to far and throw out a comment that maybe wasnt needed at that time.

You say you get tagged for spam or trolling as I am sure we all have. It is when we get vocal about it that makes it seem more like we are whining about being labeled as such. You are not whining in any way. You are clearing the air of disgressions that have probably been piling up.

I agree with alpha. I would bubble you up if it is warranted. By that I am meaning you really have some good debatable (and respectable) point of views/opinions. I'll give you one now for bringing your side of the situation to the table.
lex-1020  +   1221d ago
@Darthv72

Well said. Well said.

@Hoc
It is extremely difficult to convey emotions over type. My advice would be to stay away from opinion pieces. That is where most of the comments get labeled as trolling or spam ect. I would also advise you to stay away from things like top 10 overrated game lists, and any flaimbait articles. It's hard to write anything without angering someone on this site. The biggest advice I have is to try to not anger someone specific. They could hold an vendetta against you and just go and -bubble all of your comments. Remember Make a person happy and they'll be your friend for the day. Make a person angry and they could hate you for weeks.
-Alpha  +   1221d ago
BTW have you discussed this with a mod/person of authority? Maybe you should before writing something like this if you didn't.
artsaber   1221d ago | Spam
gamerdude132  +   1221d ago
Wait, holy crap. You only have one bubble? You're right, this site's community blows.
toaster  +   1221d ago
No, the front page sucks. Go to N4G's forums. Much better and friendlier than the front page fantrolls.
f00pgames  +   1221d ago
I'm new, I don't know about losing bubbles, but sounds to be fun
Parapraxis  +   1221d ago
I noticed how messed the bubble system is after I lost 2 bubbles in the span of 24 hrs, and I KNOW I was not trolling.
If it really is mods who control bubbles it would seem to me some of them are doing so due to their own personal biases.
#1.5 (Edited 1221d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
DK286K   1221d ago | Spam
DK286K   1221d ago | Spam
Active Reload  +   1220d ago
Holyorangecows...you are a troll, at least thats what I get from your comments. Do you know what a troll is? Google it and you will be able to see the reasons your comments are labled trolling.
ubiquitious  +   1222d ago | Intelligent
It's not foul play. The site admins have hired people from both sides to moderate which really wasn't a good decision from the start. But for the most part, they balance each other out.

The problem is there aren't enough mods to quickly dispatch the issues that arise. It's very simple, but as of now they only get to a reported story/user when they finish with everything else.
#2 (Edited 1222d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(15) | Report | Reply
BannedForNineYears  +   1221d ago
Moderator's logic: If the comment supports mods, bubbles up.
If the comment points out the flaws in N4G or moderation system, bubbles down for trolling or spam.

They should have a system to where if a comment gets a certain amount of disagrees, it wouldn't be allowed to get bubbles up. ~_~
Same for if a comment gets a lot of agrees, it shouldn't be allowed to lose bubbles.
I'm not gonna complain about me losing my bubbles, I deserved it quite honestly. :D

Although being restricted from commenting for a month for these comments,
http://n4g.com/news/639731/...
http://n4g.com/news/640232/...
and
http://n4g.com/news/640357/...
Seems a tad unfair considering how often they allow comments implying the same thing to remain unflagged.

Then again, in my opinion, Parapraxis' comment that got flagged here : http://n4g.com/news/662631/... shouldn't have been flagged..... And apparently the 23 people who agreed with his comment would agree......

@13 "Ive never understood why people care about bubbles."

I care about my bubbles because I can't reply to you saying that I care about my bubbles because I wouldn't have been able to reply to you if I would have had 1 bubble which I do, hence why I'm having to reply to you in my comment that wasn't even replying to your comment...So you'll probably never read this.....
#2.1 (Edited 1221d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(4) | Report | Reply
jlar  +   1222d ago
I also want to know why they allow trolls to have multiple accounts and not ban them, I mean..couldn' they just blacklist their IP adresses for this site???

Unless the mods themselves troll around cause they have no life.......what the hell is the point of bashing MS, Sony, Nintendo, or any other game company?? You still get to play games and it doesn't matter if others don't like them or not, unless they flat out lie like Kotaku or give unfair comparisons (which always show up on this site).
f789790  +   1221d ago | Intelligent
Nobody blacklists IP's anymore. Unless your talking about a *chan ban. All you have to do is reset your modem and you will most likely be given a new IP address by your ISP.
gamerdude132  +   1221d ago
Why the hell do you think I lost my bubble? Haha, for trolling? Well, if trolling is saying, and I quote, "Microsoft also uses shipping numbers as an excuse for sales numbers. It's what companies do to try to show everyone that the public would rather have them over someone else. It's just an old corporate trick and I'm not surprised to see either Microsoft or Sony doing this", then take my damn bubble away. But that's the truth, so why the hell am I missing a bubble?

And THAT'S why I don't comment on a lot of things anymore unless I have a very strong viewpoint on it. The vast majority of this site does not believe in any opinion but their own and not having their opinion is trolling, SPAM, offensive, off topic, immature, a personal attack, and a message chuck-full of bad language. So, yes, I only really go here for the user blogs and reviews and the news itself, not the "opinion pieces" that are the biggest starters of flamebait I've ever seen.

Do I get a well said bubble for that, moderators? What, you don't like that I called this site broken? Oh, you're gonna bubble me down? Thanks (you bastards)!
#4 (Edited 1221d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
Bathyj  +   1221d ago
For all the trolling and name calling I've seen in this place, what I lost a bubble for today was pretty harsh in my book. What do you guys think?

In a Forza article, a fan requests:
"implement weather,night driving,buggaty veyron super sport"

My reply
"Theres already a game that has that stuff. Jus saying."

Slightly cheeky maybe. Trolling? No way.

If I said, Killzone needs plasma rifles, floaty physics and blocky armour and someone said try Halo, I wouldnt be upset. And I wouldnt consider it trolling.

Far worse gets said everyday.
Its hard as hell to build up those bubbles, but easy as to lose them. I got up to 9 once, took about a year, then they change the system, I when back to 3 and now cant get over 5 again. Hell I'm lucky to have 5.

And truth be told, I dont need 5 remarks on everythread, I dont need to argue back and forth like some of these guys. I say my piece, respond to the replys and thats usually it, but thats not the point.

I just want some CONSISTANCEY so I know what will get me in trouble and what wont. People full on drop F bombs in here now and nothing happens. I suggest a game that sound exactly like the one someones describing and its a bubble losing offence.

What do you want from me N4G?
xino   1221d ago | Personal attack | show | Replies(1)
asphogears  +   1221d ago
The reasons people lose bubbles are usually ridiculous.
Parapraxis  +   1221d ago
I honestly don't know which comments caused me to lose bubbles, I do know they were not as bad as many others I see around N4G.

I was up to 9 bubbles before the change over =/
#6.1 (Edited 1221d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
artsaber   1221d ago | Spam
Arup02  +   1221d ago
Hes, we cant say our opinions here, that out comment is already called as "trolling" I would appreciate if a mod could explain the situation.
M4ndat0ry_1nstall  +   1221d ago
Where did all your bubbles go "HolyOrangeCows"?

Brah, you have one bubble for a reason you are either a "troll" or a "fanboy" that consistently high-jacks 360 related submissions. Twisting everything positive into a negative and inciting unnecessary arguments, you did the same thing on Gametrailers and you were banned for it a few times and now you want to bitch and moan because your trolling has finally caught a mod(s) eye?

Suck it up and DEAL WITH IT.

PS: I think the moderation is fine on N4G, I've been banned or restricted a few times and more often than not I deserved it.
#9 (Edited 1221d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(15) | Report | Reply
Parapraxis  +   1221d ago
There is so much irony in the fact you feel qualified to call other people out as trolls, then admit that you get banned often.
UnwanteDreamz  +   1221d ago
Well I am not surprised one bit. You openly call Orange Cows a troll in your comment (against the rules) lets see if you get the same ban I did.
Sarobi  +   1221d ago | Well said
i find it odd how one person can make fifthy accounts and bubble down people on them because they dislike what they said, i know people have multiple accounts, some are merely to push the approval rate while others want to make it seem like their argument makes sense and people agree, to be honest i don't blame the moderation team, the site is huge with with overflowing amounts of new users a day its hard to keep track of what's. what,
Bibto  +   1221d ago
Maybe they should introduce a leveling system where you can agree and disagree, but can't bubble or de-bubble until you reach a certain level.

That should stop most of the multiple account de-bubbling.
JL  +   1220d ago
There is a system like that of sorts in place. Members have Trust Rank levels. This is a ranking that is adjusted by staff. If that ranking is too low due to excessive trolling, etc in the past, then your actions of bubbling up or down have no weight behind their vote, thus do not count.
xino   1221d ago | Spam
Owner360-PS3  +   1221d ago
Ive never understood why people care about bubbles.
UnwanteDreamz  +   1221d ago
Well if you like to comment losing bubbles means you only get one comment per article. It doesn't really matter if you are here for the news. If you are here to fight in the "console war" then I guess it is a big deal.
phntom  +   1221d ago
Yeah, this bubbles system is completely useless, there's no reason to rage about it. Even if my bubbles were turned into negative, I would be like "Wow, it's just fucking nothing".
Ducky  +   1221d ago
The Mods must be crazy.

Now... are these little stories part of the general rule, or an exception to the rule?
All my (short) experience tells me is that people with lower bubbles generally make lower quality comments.

A few 1-bubblers are exceptions who actually do make intelligent/funny comments, and a few 5+ bubblers make horrendous comments ... but for the most part, things are generally fine.

Although, I did think bubble #3 was a bit unfair. =/

EDIT: *reads below* The expression "bear in mind" always evokes a Condemned-2-style rampaging bear in my mind. =x
#15 (Edited 1221d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
TheNocturnus  +   1220d ago
Ha! Clever play on words there. The "mods" must be crazy. Loved those movies, The Gods must be crazy. So stupid yet hilarious.
Cat  +   1221d ago
Hey guys! Thanks for the feedback, but an onerous part of my job is helping stop the spread of misinformation, so that's where the focus of this comment will be: :)

Bubbles and comment labels are largely driven by the community. When a member of staff intercedes to collapse a comment, you're typically going to be getting a warning or restriction to go along with it.

So everyone can votes on bubbles, but it is true that not everyone's votes have the same power, that is where Trust Rank comes into play. Rather than bore you with wall-o-text, I'll give you the links to the info:
http://n4g.com/user/blogpos...
http://n4g.com/user/blog/du...

Bonus info: bear in mind that Voting on a comment is treated very differently from Reporting a comment. Interestingly, we typically see far more members hitting agree/disagree than voting on a comment as Well Said, Trolling, etc.

Let me know if you have any Qs!
#16 (Edited 1221d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
Zeevious  +   1221d ago
I did not understand a part of your answer here:

What do you mean "...far more members hitting agree/disagree than voting on a comment." What's considered a vote? (Agree/Disagree I thought)

I've read the comments about the "trust" rank, but it seems to be an intentionally vague and concealed number...so why even mention it?

Even though I and others have been members for a very long time...we not only had our bubbles taken away in the server upgrade...but it seems most of us also have a nearly worthless trust rank, since giving bubbles to others NEVER seems to increase their amount.

The question I have to ask is, how is this a system that works?

Is this really better than the old system, that at least would let someone deserving increase their comment bubbles? Except for very few exceptions, I've not seen this working effectively for anyone.

I'm asking these questions because these changes...from mysterious unknown trust-levels to a less effective "upgraded" comment system where you lose bubbles easily, but never get bubbles at all...is simply not working.

I'll take the risk with my own account, and bubbles by being direct and honest about this with you, through these questions and comments.

I think the tendency when dealing with Mod's and Admin's is often to "Yessir -- Yessmaam -- That's great! You're doing a great job!" and in fact, It is because I respect you that I'll just be as honest as I always am, and tell you directly -- you're not.

This is one area where there's not just room for improvement, but the 'improvements' have made things much worse, to the point of making them essentially function-less.

Who here HONESTLY didn't feel stabbed in the back after putting in years of time and effort here to go from 7 8 9 bubbles to THREE, and now with what seems no ability to ever gain any bubbles unless you play games to the 'elite'

I'm sorry, but that is not a system I will support. No one should.

The real question I would like answered is simple:

It worked better before...or at least worked -- Now it's broken, that's clear. When will it be fixed?

I've contributed my time and energy to N4G for some time, and instead of being rewarded, apparently have a nonexistent trust rating, and a system that won't reward or at least recognize any further efforts.

So I must also ask...why bother?

These are difficult questions, but they must be brought to your attention because they affect everyone here.

I'm sure this will put me on one or two mod's list...so be it.
If it helps the community and this site improve, that's a sacrifice I'll make....and in fact just did.
#16.1 (Edited 1221d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
Cat  +   1221d ago
The answers to all your questions are there in the links, from why bubbles were reset to why the change was made, to Trust Rank! Why mention T.R.? Because it affects the effectiveness of user actions - like bubble votes!
#16.1.1 (Edited 1221d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report
Zeevious  +   1221d ago
Except it does not work Cat.

If it worked, we wouldn't be here right now talking about what's broken, instead of games.

I read all the comments in the links, and have been following this since the site change.

It does not work as intended...and the unintended consequences are longer-term and active users have minimal motivation to contribute because they lose bubbles but never regain them!

How is this one way system, only downhill an effective one?

How many users like myself need to bring this to the administrations attention before someone simply says "OK...our bad" and fixes this?

I'm asking these questions because at this point I don't really care what happens to my account here. I used to, but not now.

Ban the account...kill my bubbles...don't care as long as you LISTEN and someone makes whatever changes need to be made so you at least have a chance of contributing and rewarding commenters...not what we have now, that seems to go in one direction only...down.

Please Cat...what I'm simply saying here...for everyone is PLEASE FIX THIS.
#16.1.2 (Edited 1221d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(0) | Report
cgoodno  +   1221d ago | Interesting
What is broken is an issue with individual perception.

"I only have one bubble, the new system is broken." When 90% of the time the person is far from the most constructive poster.

If you don't give the users the power to affect the rating of other users, it requires too much moderation that people claim is biased based on the moderators.

If you give the users the power to affect the rating of other users, the system is considered broken because of fanboys and I swear I'm not a troll.

There are issues with influencing good debate here, but it's not because of the system, it's because of the people here. You're at the mercy of each other, and 95% of the people here aren't interested in gaming debate but quick one liners and voting against people they have a bias against.

So, if you have an issue, the best choice is to find a site with a community more to your liking. You're not likely to find it here, no matter what system is in place.
Zeevious  +   1221d ago
I agree there where issues with the old system as well...but known trolls could simply be banished to the open zone...

THAT WORKED much better than this.

Those links sound great, but everything sounds good on paper.
If it worked half as well in practice we wouldn't be here discussing this right now.

It is too easy to lose your bubbles and too hard to gain any.
How many times do you need to see people give you bubbles...and NOTHING happens before it's clear the system simply does not work?

I have had this happen many, many, many, many times and after 6 months with not even ONE bubble registering...I give up.

IT DOES NOT WORK.

What is everyone asking here...change 3 lines of code, maybe 1 number somewhere in the variables?

I've seen this type of problem many times before.
Someone coded this and thought it was the best thing since sliced cabbage...and now there's an ego in the equation, which makes it even harder to fix.

So remember kids...
Ego's & Equations Don't Mix.
#16.1.4 (Edited 1221d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(0) | Report
falviousuk  +   1221d ago
Unfortunately your just one of the many trolls on this site that really needs to disappear. You constantly troll xbox articles which is why you should lose those commenting rights.

The bubble system is ther to allow people who want to discuss gaming in a proper way ragged than attack one company or system just because that person doesn't like it.

Real gamers don't care about the hardware used to play games or the companies involved, they just enjoy playing game. So whether you use an xbox, ps3, wii or Pc/Mac or a mix of all them, then there are great games available.
cgoodno  +   1221d ago
No matter what the topic, whether its gaming, N4G moderation, or politics, it all boils down to half the comments being about whether or not the person is a PS3 or 360 fanboy who 'trolls and flames articles of the other system'.

I've given up on the system here as far as encouraging and supporting debate about the articles at hand. Sure, I can go to the forums, but there's just not a good amount of debate and the topics that are worthwhile tend to stagnate fairly quickly.

IMHO, take what good gaming debate you can when you can. You'll just waste time and raise your blood pressure worrying about the bubble system.
gon-freaks  +   1221d ago
cool story bro..
tplarkin7  +   1221d ago
I've never seen perfect moderation in any forum. I think mods should always be respectful and cautious before deciding on intervention. The more freedom, the better.
Artsrevenge   1220d ago | Spam
GenericUserName  +   1220d ago
Waaaaaaaaaah ! The mods are biased! If you keep on trolling kinect articles, you're gonna get the banning you deserved. I got my 3 day restriction and I knew I deserved it so I didn't go calling my internet gang about it lol.
Why are ps3 extreme fans so sensitive? Gees, there's always something with you people. The media is biased, the mods are biased, global warming is biased. Come on already with the conspiracy theories. Orange cow, a quick look at your comment history shows just why you have only 1 bubble. Just as mine shows why I only have 2, but you don't see me starting a cryblog about it. If you're gonna troll, deal with the consequences
FA-SHO  +   1220d ago
That's about 6 people in this thread alone that have lost bubbles for useless trash. N4G Mods take a look at the total BS injustice your doing to this site.
Scotland-The-Brave  +   1220d ago
I completely agree HolyOrangeCow. When i first joined this site i spent alot of time commenting and sharing my opinion, even submitting articles but then slowly but surely my bubbles would start to go down for reasons completely unkown to me (non fanboy comments). I decided to make a new account because i wanted the ability to speak to the community and not be hindered by 2 bubbles. Now i could not give a crap, i had 5 bubbles about 2 month ago and 2 of them got taken away from me in an article about forza 3 (some people will remember this article because nearly half of the comments were marked as spam, trolling and offensive for no reason at all), just because i shared a different view from the bubble stealing cock jockey of a mod. After that i thought "why keep trying when i dont earn bubbles but lose them for really petty things?" thus i am at 2 bubbles and i have lost all interest in this site. Now i troll.
Scotland-Tha-Brave   1219d ago | Bad language | show
pr0digyZA  +   1220d ago
@HolyOrangeCows

you have to agree that you are biased towards your console of choice, and I don't know about you but when I have 20 people ignoring me I start to think that maybe something is a little off.Just going through your comment history I can see that there's some real hate and no give and take on your side.It's either your way or the highway. In future try to stay away from the one consoles submissions, it will definitely help you to get those bubbles back. just think in 2 years time all this will be in the past and no one will care, we will all be talking about the next thing. Oh and happy birthday for jan because i wont be here :P
ZombieAssassin  +   1214d ago
After reading this i searched the mods on this site and went through their comment history just to see if their was any bias...and most seemed like your average gamer but some were really bad and unfortunately they seem to be the more active ones. Not like i care though i rarely post i just come here for the news you know when it's actually news and not TOP lists.

Although I have a feeling alot of people here will lose their bubbles just for posting, and if you do just try to go over their heads and contact the webmaster of the site.
#26 (Edited 1214d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply

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