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DragonKnight

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Opinion on Representation, Inclusion, and other Buzzwords...

Recently I received this PM from a user on this site and, coupled with discussions I had today, I thought I'd use these experiences as a framework to discuss an opinion many people THINK I have yet are completely wrong about. So first, have a gander at this message from a user whose name will be withheld because it doesn't matter.

Note: I censored the profanity so as to not violate the rules. I will reply by using the pronoun "Me" but the user blocked me so you'll be reading my reply for the basis of this blog. TL;DR I was basically called a bigot.

User: "Your such a f***ing hypocrite you say s*** like representation doesn't matter and talk about when games were all text so race shouldn't matter But then your in every f***ing thread talking down anyone or any games that adds a minority spewing out words likr PC and SJW. I can respect that you have an opinion but what bothers me is your such a f***ing coward that you pretend your not racist and sexist. Race doesn't matter as long as the characters are white male and straight that's all i fucking hear out of you."

Me: The user doesn't understand what hypocrisy is. I am very consistent with my statements. Yes, I am in many threads about so called inclusion and it's because each article shows inclusion as a check mark made in a progressive box. Inclusion in games is done mostly to pander to the agenda of the loud and vocal Social Justice Warrior minority that have to make everything about identity. It is not sexist or racist to state that a character like Nadine is a token SJW character, or that making Tracer lesbian is the height of pandering. Nadine has unbreakable plot armor which makes her character unrelatable and unrealistic. Tracer's orientation has literally no bearing on anything and no place in a 5 on 5 multiplayer FPS with no story. How is that inclusion for the right reasons and not inclusion for pandering reasons?

User: "Every f***ing time there is a thread or a game there is Dragonknight with his long winded replies to call it propaganda and fight against any kind of inclusion."

Me: I never called it propaganda because it's not. It's pandering. I'm not fighting against inclusion, I'm fighting against the forced acquiescence of developers, or the shaming of developers, or opportunistic pandering that developers use to check that identity politics mark off. It's about being able to create for your own sake, not to cater to the fragile emotions of perpetually fragile ideologues that need validation every second of every day in every possible fashion.

Now, the rest of it goes on and is much much worse and more of a personal attack against me with no relation to games at all so I left it out. Since this blog is already long enough I'm going to try to briefly summarize my feelings about inclusion.

On the whole I don't care what a character's race or orientation is. Video game characters are not real people. They are not going through real struggles, they do not even exist. Everything the characters are experiencing in the game is unique to them and them alone and in reality is not actually happening. People who require validation of their existence through media have serious mental problems. If you can't feel good about being a girl, or being gay, or being any ethnicity unless you see fictional people living unrealistic lives in either total positivity or eventually overcoming all challenges and barriers, then you have personal issues you need to seek help for because they will never be resolved no matter how much media you consume.

I have many games with Character Creation and open relationship potentials and play all different kinds of characters because I'm trying to play as something as unlike me as possible. That's the point of escapist media. My problem is with progressives, political agendas, and identity politics being used as a weapon against developers who do not tow an ideological line. A developer who does not have females in their game is not a sexist developer, but they will be publicly shamed as being such. THAT is what I am against, and all the related issues and problems as a result of that kind of mentality. Your identity is not important to anyone but you, and you do not have the right to have your identity celebrated by the world. Celebrate who you are yourself, be happy with who you are, but the second you try to force me or anyone else to, we're gonna have a problem.

If you want to call me a racist or a sexist because of that, let me introduce you to a term you'll seldom hear from the progressive world but one you should always remember. DILLIGAF. It stands for Do I Look Like I Give A F***?

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238d ago Replies(1)
gjxodnvb238d ago

"My problem is with progressives, political agendas, and identity politics being used as a weapon against developers who do not tow an ideological line. A developer who does not have females in their game is not a sexist developer, but they will be publicly shamed as being such."

But in saying this your saying you're just saying you want a conservative agenda and your augments are against developers who don't tow your conservative ideological line. A developer who does choose to have a gay female in their game is not a pandering SJW, but they will be shamed as such. Saying that's OK seems pretty hypocritical to me.

"If you can't feel good about being a girl, or being gay, or being any ethnicity unless you see fictional people living unrealistic lives in either total positivity or eventually overcoming all challenges and barriers, then you have personal issues you need to seek help for because they will never be resolved no matter how much media you consume."

But if you can't be happy with games that do include homosexuals girls or ethnic people, that's totally ok? Sounds pretty hypocritical to me. And on top of that this is a pretty typical lack of understanding and empathy answer. We live in a world where racism and sexism and homophobia do exist and those are the barriers people are trying to overcome by including them in games.

"I have many games with Character Creation and open relationship potentials and play all different kinds of characters"

Coming from you this sounds like when a person say's I'm not homophobic because I have a gay friend. Even though chances are the friendship is not mutual.

DragonKnight237d ago

"But in saying this..."

No, not I'm not. For starters I'm not a conservative. Secondly, it's an argumentation flaw to suggest that anyone who is not parroting progressivism must therefore be conservative, and finally I haven't even stated an ideology that I may even believe in for any developer to have to tow its line. I've very clearly stated that I'm against the kind of tactics that have been consistently used to push developers into towing an ideological line. Ask Ubisoft how it feels to be called sexist because one of their games didn't have a playable female character, then look at their response in their next 2 major games and tell me that you don't find it disagreeable that shame tactics can be used to influence design decisions.

"A developer who does choose..."

Recently many people attacked TLOU 2 for having Ellie as the main character on the grounds that it supports an SJW agenda. Everywhere that I have seen such an attack I called out the person making the attack as being ignorant to the progression of the series and that having Ellie as the main character makes sense for the franchise if you bothered to follow the game at all. You can even look through my comment history and find at least one of those comments. So no, it's not ok to attack a developer for having a gay character in their game. The line is drawn when it's clearly obvious that the reason WHY they have a gay character, male or female, in their game is not for the benefit of the game but instead to cater to an ideological agenda and the incessantly whining, vocal minority that will shame any dev that DOESN'T cater to said agenda. And I have remained consistent in that.

"But if you can't be happy...?"

Another argumentation flaw, and a fallacy at that. For one, you can stop strawmanning me. Two, if a person is not happy with a game that includes those people, then they can simply not buy it. And not liking those groups is not a statement on their need to have their identity celebrated. Because that's the difference. When you can only be happy with who you are if you see other people like you (who actually are nothing like you because they are not going through anything) in media, then what you are is someone who bases their whole life on needing that validity to your identity. You aren't happy with yourself unless you're being celebrated for being you. But not liking to see those groups doesn't even have to do with personal identity at all.

DragonKnight237d ago

Part 2: "And on top of that this is a pretty..."

Empathy is irrelevant where fiction is the topic. These characters are not people, they do not go through what actual people go through, and no one's life will be made better by living in some kind of fantasy that seeing a gay character in a game will somehow change anyone's perception on real life gay people.And again, the inclusion of these characters is not the problem I'm discussing. It's WHY the characters are included that's the problem. Do you think gay people are happy with tokenism? Would you want your representation to be a check mark? If you want something to be normalized, do you think it will be by making an event of how different it is and how its inclusion should earn you brownie points?

"Coming from you this sounds like when a person say's I'm not homophobic because I have a gay friend. Even though chances are the friendship is not mutual."

This statement says more about you than it does me. And I'd add that any person who is racist, or sexist, or homophobic would not be capable of having friends who are part of those groups. It is an oxymoron and literally impossible unless said friend is a self-hating individual that allows themselves to be walked on like a door mat. But I like how people taking a progressive position somehow literally know everything about everyone.

ginganinja237d ago

"Empathy is irrelevant where fiction is the topic."
Really ?
I'm not sure if I'm missing some context and misrepresenting it, but that is a strange statement to make.
Are you just arbitrarily applying it to video games or is any form of fiction ?
For instance, I thought I'd just enjoyed The Last Guardian because of the journey these two disparate characters made and feeling their relationship and motivations change throughout it, but maybe it was just indegestion.

DragonKnight236d ago

You are misinterpreting it. The user I'm replying to is making an appeal to empathy argument for people in real life. The user is attempting to state that I lack empathy for how real people feel about the identity of fictional people and how that can impact real life. And the user is correct, I do not have empathy for that kind of projection.

gjxodnvb236d ago (Edited 236d ago )

No DragonKnight, What you said originally was an extremely rude comment insulting people who want to see characters with similar life experiences as themselves by saying they have serious mental issues. Which frankly is something only an a-hole would say to begin with. And basically your just doubling down on that statement with your reply to ginganinja. Is it really that hard for you to understand that people might enjoy things they can identify with, and moreover that it's perfectly normal?

"This statement says more about you than it does me. And I'd add that any person who is racist, or sexist, or homophobic would not be capable of having friends who are part of those groups. It is an oxymoron and literally impossible unless said friend is a self-hating individual that allows themselves to be walked on like a door mat. But I like how people taking a progressive position somehow literally know everything about everyone. "

This is just ignorant.

First off saying "I'm not racist or I'm not homophobic because I have a friend who is "gay or minority" isn't in anyway a new thing. Mostly it's ignorant because life is not so cut and dry as if someone is racist or homophobic someone can't say they're friends with someone. Besides, what I was trying to say is just because someone thinks their not homophobic or a bigot or doesn't mean that they aren't or that other people don't see them as such. You don't get to decide how other people perceive you. Just like you don't get to decide why gaming companies make the games they do nor do you get to decide what they do with their own time and money.

@ginganinja Your absolutely correct games can and even should evoke an emotional experience and the best games do. Don't listen to what DragonKnight says he is just desperately trying to justify his position after I used his own words to show how hypocritical his positions are.

And one last hilarious comment for you DragonKnight.

If you want to call me a racist or a sexist because of that, let me introduce you to a term you'll seldom hear from the progressive world but one you should always remember. DILLIGAF. It stands for Do I Look Like I Give A F***?

Well it seems after a blog post and 4 replies in a thread of only 9 comment at the time of writing. YES, yes you do give a "F". Well we'll just add that to your growing list of hypocrisy.

DragonKnight236d ago

"No DragonKnight, What you said originally was an extremely rude comment insulting people who want to see characters with similar life experiences as themselves by saying they have serious mental issues."

Bzzzzt. Wrong. I said if you can't feel good about yourself unless there is a fictional (read: non-existent person) character that shares your identity, then you have problems that no amount of media will fix. I said that a person who needs their identity validated by media has serious personal issues they need to get help for because they do, and they should. There is no video game character in existence that has gone through anything similar to anything a real person has gone through. Every game character is written to go through scripted struggles that will never happen the same way in life, and every game character is written to overcome all challenges because there always has to be a happy ending. That isn't how life works, and you're not helping anyone by coddling them and making it seem like a fictional character is in any way relatable to a real person going through real struggles that will take a lot of hard work and time to get through.

So let me put it to you another way. I would bet money that you know at least 1 person who is part of a special interest group. I say special interest because that encompasses more than just LGBT people. So go to them. Find a character you think is relatable to their situation. Have them play the game with that character. Then ask them how their life has improved. Ask them if being part of that group has suddenly become better for knowing a fictional character is written to be like them. Ask them if tokenism makes them feel great about themselves. I would LOVE to be around for that conversation.

"Is it really that hard for you to understand that people might enjoy things they can identify with, and moreover that it's perfectly normal?"

People like you employ red herrings with the same lack of effort it takes to breathe. You change and redirect your point a million times over to try and be correct, but you're not. This isn't about "enjoying" something. My blog isn't about people enjoying gay characters, my comment isn't about people seeking enjoyment from gay characters. Everything I've said has been about USING special interest groups to PANDER and be OPPORTUNISTIC to either shut up the whining from said groups (who are filled with people who have yet to learn about their personal issues and that no amount of characters "like them" will ever fix those issues) or make money off of identity politics. My comments and blog have been against shame tactics being used to pressure developers (like Ubisoft for example) to tow a line. Not about what people can and cannot enjoy. I enjoy good characters, gay or not. I don't care about their non-existence identity.

DragonKnight236d ago

"First off saying..."

No, it isn't anything new because people like you are too stupid to understand that a homophobe or a racist or a sexist CANNOT be friends with someone from whatever group of people they hate. In order to befriend someone, you have to be able to value that person as a person. To enjoy their company, their input, and in general just having them around. Hate is literally the antithesis of that. And second, I'm not a racist, or a homophobe, or anything else you want to throw at me. That's not something I "think", that's something I know. You know nothing about me but that I don't coddle LGBT people and don't think their identity should be celebrated, but that fact alone is enough for you to make libelous statements about me or anyone that says anything similar. You don't know about my life and yet you make statements like you do. It's a problem with people like you. It's irrelevant though because I don't really care what your opinion is of me.

"Just like you don't get to decide why gaming companies make the games they do nor do you get to decide what they do with their own time and money. "

Oh but you and your ilk do right? I mean with all the whining and yelling, and shaming you use to get your way, you seem to believe you are entitled to force gaming companies to do what you want. Oh but me pointing out obvious pandering is the worst crime ever and I need to stop because "I don't get to decide..." blah blah blah. Well actually, my money gets to decide. If I so choose, I can buy or not buy anything and contribute to whether or not certain products will remain being produced. And that's where we differ, because I understand that and you don't.

"Well it seems after a blog post and 4 replies in a thread of only 9 comment at the time of writing. YES, yes you do give a "F". Well we'll just add that to your growing list of hypocrisy."

Responding to comments is not an indication of a vested interest. It is a mere courtesy. And when people decided to make a directed comment at me, it is even moreso. Contrary to your misguided belief, one does not need emotional validation to engage in something.

gjxodnvb236d ago

DragonKnight your such an angry person, you have been on a tear arguing with everyone on the site who has a differing opinion.

You don't even read or understand what I am saying.

I didn't even read your last comment I'm just going to assume it said "blah blah blah I don't hate everything but don't make anything I don't agree with because I hate it and I'm going to argue with anyone who's happy about it till I run out of comments".

So, you go on being angry and miserable trying to stop the world from turning.

Best of luck with that.

DragonKnight236d ago

"DragonKnight your such an angry person, you have been on a tear arguing with everyone on the site who has a differing opinion. "

That "differing opinion" you seem to think exists is really "call everyone who disagrees a bigot." Because that's what you do.

"You don't even read or understand what I am saying."

Says the guy who misquoted me AND changes his argument all the time.

"I didn't even read your last comment I'm just going to assume it said "blah blah blah I don't hate everything but don't make anything I don't agree with because I hate it and I'm going to argue with anyone who's happy about it till I run out of comments"

You've already proven your illiteracy so I'm not surprised in the least.

"So, you go on being angry and miserable trying to stop the world from turning."

I weep for a world that can only turn based on forced acquiescence to identity politics.

gjxodnvb236d ago (Edited 236d ago )

"That "differing opinion" you seem to think exists is really "call everyone who disagrees a bigot." Because that's what you do."

Actually, it's pretty much just you because your so long winded and you seem to think your so much smarter than all the people you argue with, and don't pretend I'm the only person you get into arguments with.

I've been calling you a hypocrite using your own words based on what you said in the blog. Though if you have to keep on proving your not a bigot maybe you should have a self introspective.

"Says the guy who misquoted me AND changes his argument all the time."

What ever, I cut and pasted basically everything you said and I didn't change my argument. My argument has been mainly that your hypocritical and secondly that your unable to empathize. If you think I meant something else it's because you didn't understand. And this is particularly hilarious coming from you given how hypocritical your comments have been even with in a single post.

"You've already proven your illiteracy so I'm not surprised in the least."
http://giphy.com/gifs/react...

"I weep for a world that can only turn based on forced acquiescence to identity politics."
http://giphy.com/gifs/warne...

Edit

I decided to scroll up and read the post I skipped over and you said this.

"Just like you don't get to decide why gaming companies make the games they do nor do you get to decide what they do with their own time and money. "

"Oh but you and your ilk do right? I mean with all the whining and yelling, and shaming you use to get your way, you seem to believe you are entitled to force gaming companies to do what you want. Oh but me pointing out obvious pandering is the worst crime ever and I need to stop because "I don't get to decide..." blah blah blah. Well actually, my money gets to decide. If I so choose, I can buy or not buy anything and contribute to whether or not certain products will remain being produced. And that's where we differ, because I understand that and you don't. "

This really just shows how little you understand. I have never told any gaming company or even posted anywhere asking to put anything into a game. This entire topic has largely been about you feeling entitled to tell gaming companies why they are doing things and saying they are wrong for making games that have things that you don't like.

I am fine with game companies making whatever games they want I respect their creative freedoms and understand it's their time and their money. Not once have I said some company should do this or that nor have I said they shouldn't do this or that. If they want to make a game with minorities I'm fine with that if they want to make a game with out them I am fine with that too. This entire thing seems to have started with you offending people with your constant problems with companies adding minorities not with anything I said.

To be honest I'm surprised you even tried to say that I did given that I have said repeatedly one of the things I objected to was the fact your trying to tell companies why they are adding minorities and objecting to it aka calling then pandering SJW's.

DragonKnight236d ago (Edited 236d ago )

"Actually, it's pretty much just you because your so long winded and you seem to think your so much smarter than all the people you argue with, and don't pretend I'm the only person you get into arguments with."

Lol, you're so off base it's pathetic.

"I've been calling you a hypocrite using your own words based on what you said in the blog. Though if you have to keep on proving your not a bigot maybe you should have a self introspective. "

No you haven't. You're the guy that misquoted me and mischaracterized my position this whole time. And I don't have to prove anything because I haven't said anything bigoted, though you will parrot that I am incessantly because that's what you people do. When people don't march to your beat, you turn up the libel. Btw self-introspective is a redundancy. Add that to the list of fallacies you continue to commit.

"What ever, I cut and pasted basically everything you said and I didn't change my argument. My argument has been mainly that your hypocritical and secondly that your unable to empathize. If you think I meant something else it's because you didn't understand. And this is particularly hilarious coming from you given how hypocritical your comments have been even with in a single post."

When you start a statement with "whatever" you have already conceded. You copied and pasted some things I said, things you didn't comprehend, attempted to twist what I said so that you can attempt to gain leverage over me, and you failed. You didn't prove me to by a hypocrite because I haven't said anything hypocritical, and I don't care if you don't think I'm being empathetic because empathy is irrelevant to the topic. And when you said this "What you said originally was an extremely rude comment insulting people who want to see characters with similar life experiences as themselves by saying they have serious mental issues" you flat out lied.

As to your links....

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

gjxodnvb236d ago (Edited 236d ago )

"No you haven't. You're the guy that misquoted me and mischaracterized my position this whole time. And I don't have to prove anything because I haven't said anything bigoted, though you will parrot that I am incessantly because that's what you people do. When people don't march to your beat, you turn up the libel. Btw self-introspective is a redundancy. Add that to the list of fallacies you continue to commit."

Well then why is it you get into so many arguments with so many people? Clearly I'm not the only person who disagrees with you. Us people huh? What about you people? Want to call me an SJW for old times sake?

"When you start a statement with "whatever" you have already conceded. You copied and pasted some things I said, things you didn't comprehend, attempted to twist what I said so that you can attempt to gain leverage over me, and you failed. You didn't prove me to by a hypocrite because I haven't said anything hypocritical, and I don't care if you don't think I'm being empathetic because empathy is irrelevant to the topic. And when you said this "What you said originally was an extremely rude comment insulting people who want to see characters with similar life experiences as themselves by saying they have serious mental issues" you flat out lied."

"Whatever" is basically me rolling my eyes. You brought up the whole mental illness thing, don't try to pretend you were saying it out of kindness now that I pointed out it was rude. And empathy is entirely relevant. An empathetic person would understand why people who are ostracized by society might enjoy playing as a character they can relate with. DragonKnight your the one saying NO to them. If you can't understand why someone would want play a game or watch a movie or be around people in real life that share common struggles or have common interest I really don't know what to say other than you lack understanding.

P.S. The crying jackass gif was way more creative and funny.

DragonKnight236d ago

See, there you go again, completely misrepresenting what I've said. Well, I only have one thing left to say.

Merry Christmas.

gjxodnvb235d ago (Edited 235d ago )

You mistake my disagreement with not understanding. I understand you all too well. You don't get to decide how I or anyone else views you. Nor are you right just because you think you are. You're very intolerant, that's why you're constantly in arguments. You just think anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid or wrong and unable to understand, but the truth is different people have different opinions and feelings about things and just because they are not the same as yours doesn't make them wrong.

Merry Christmas
https://ixquick-proxy.com/d...

+ Show (9) more repliesLast reply 235d ago
DefenderOfDoom2237d ago

Not sure why "neatO's" comment was flagged as 'spam' ?

DefenderOfDoom2237d ago

Truth is, no one can really the tell what the developer , writer or artist is actually thinking when making a video game , unless someone does a interview with that person .