130°
Submitted by Bigpappy 1051d ago | article

Now this is how you sell Kinect :- Betanews

Joe Wilcox writes: I'm a big fan of Kinect and Microsoft using the body as the command line. The most natural user interface is you. But selling the long-term benefits, beyond gaming, is tricky. Leading into the controller's November 4 first-year anniversary, Microsoft promotes the "Kinect Effect". It's brilliant, and forward-looking, marketing that shows Kinect's huge potential outside gaming. (Kinect, PC, Tech)

Attached Video
user858621  +   1051d ago
Wow thats a really good advert
aviator189  +   1051d ago
I agree, that ad was pretty inspiring.
gamingdroid  +   1051d ago
This video showing this little kid pulling off moves in Kinect is awesome too:

http://betanews.com/2011/06...

Apparently he is playing on hard, I struggle with normal!
#1.1.1 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(1) | Report
Resurrection   1051d ago | Spam
cgoodno  +   1051d ago
Marketing pablum.

Kinect is not capable of capturing violin playing or keyboard finger gestures, specifically fine details in finger movements.

This is more overselling of the product's capabilities. Much like how touch screen devices usually show video edited in images in commercials, but at least they are required by law to put a disclaimer saying just as much.

Some of what was shown is possible, but it is more limited than they care to admit.
#2 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(13) | Report | Reply
iamnsuperman  +   1051d ago
that is what confused me about this ad. How can this advert be shown when it can't do most of those things.
IronFrogMan  +   1051d ago
I've already seen videos of developers using finger recognition, someone just hasn't looked hard enough. o.O
#2.1.1 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(1) | Report
Letros  +   1051d ago
Possibly they are challenging developers to do these things you claim are not possible, "There's Plenty of Room at the Bottom"
#2.2 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
cgoodno  +   1051d ago
I enjoy challenging people, but what was shown is not possible with Kinect. It will require more advanced hardware that can read at that fine of a level. Currently not consumer friendly, but possible about five years with new and affordable hardware. But that won't be Kinect.
Letros  +   1051d ago
I think the problem is that you took the commercial as too literal.
cgoodno  +   1051d ago
I admit Kinect is kind of a sore spot with me, but primarily because we constantly hear Microsoft tout how next-gen it is and the endless possibilities... without seeing any of them. Sony kind of did the opposite, they showed a ton of demos showing of its precision, but they never put out the dedicated software.

IMHO, neither Sony or Microsoft released their products at the right time. If they both waited to release with their next gen of consoles, we could gave gotten better hardware with Microsoft and actual software from Sony.
#2.2.3 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(1) | Report
HeavenlySnipes  +   1051d ago | Helpful
Look at 0:24
All depictions are 'visionary'. It all could be made up BS for all we know....
iamnsuperman  +   1051d ago
that is almost unreadable. I missed that every time watching this ad. Only until you pointed it out I saw it. Sneaky but still I am sure it has to be easily seen
#2.3.1 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(0) | Report
cgoodno  +   1051d ago
Damn, that is hard as heck to read. Or, I'm getting old. At least that proves my point.
gamer7804  +   1051d ago
Dramatized, of course, but actually it is capable of detecting finger movements. Developers at MIT put out a video displaying early versions of this. Research a bit more before you try to refute something.
gamingdroid  +   1051d ago
@cgoodno: Comment kablum?
***Kinect is not capable of capturing violin playing or keyboard finger gestures, specifically fine details in finger movements.***

That is actually not entirely true, there is more than enough fidelity to track finger gestures in Kinect provided you focus them on the fingers/hand i.e have the Kinect camera close enough to the hand:

"The horizontal field of the Kinect sensor at the minimum viewing distance of ~0.8 m (2.6 ft) is therefore ~87 cm (34 in), and the vertical field is ~63 cm (25 in), resulting in a resolution of just over 1.3 mm (0.051 in) per pixel."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

If there are other problems, I don't know... but the fidelity seems to be there.

Comment kablum?
#2.5 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(4) | Report | Reply
cgoodno  +   1051d ago
You do know that Kinect is limited to 15 MB/s data transfer rates, which Limits resolution to 320x240, right? Furthermore, getting in close enough to would also result in vastly reduced field of movement.

No, new hardware and better transfer rates (non-USB based/limited) are needed. Even the G Tech basic ASL demo has not been advanced because of this reason.

So, no, not comment pablum.
gamingdroid  +   1051d ago
@cgoodno
***You do know that Kinect is limited to 15 MB/s data transfer rates, which Limits resolution to 320x240, right?***

That is actually incorrect too. The data rate transfer limit is due to Xbox 360 having to support multiple USB devices. It has nothing to do with Kinect itself.

Furthermore, that was a report by Eurogamer "by a trusted source", which we all know isn't official, but closer to a rumor:

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

"This artificial limit is in place because multiple USB devices can be used at once on an Xbox 360. But Microsoft is working on a technology to allow greater throughput in this regard, Eurogamer understands.

If Microsoft achieves its goal it could double the spec of Kinect's depth camera with a simple dashboard update.

Microsoft had not responded to Eurogamer's request for comment before publication, but Digital Foundry's Rich Leadbetter described the potential accuracy improvement as "eminently doable"."

This advertisement is for Kinect, not Xbox 360 so it is possible with Kinect now. On Xbox 360 remains to be seen according to that report.

So maybe comment kablum after all?
#2.5.2 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(3) | Report
cgoodno  +   1051d ago
So, let me get this straight.

1. Firmware based limitation that exists on PC but can be overwritten (aka you are right on that point)
2. Ignore the fact that field of vision shrinks exponentially with your statement that it could work at 0.8m.
3. Ignore that 640x480 still isn't enough resolution to track arms and fingers in the wide range of movement required (see the CopyCat ASL Kinect demo to see limitation at a good depth).
4. Ignore that even though you believe it to be possible, there is no proof of anything even close to what is shown in the video for finger tracking.
5. Continue to blindly argue for Microsoft for some reason, which isn't what you were foing 6 months ago. Yes, it really is you promoting all things MS the last few months.

I'm seeing less and less reason to have debates with you when you wish to just look for snippets that don't actually prove the possibilities as dictated in the video.

P.S. and minor annoyance -- pablum, not kablum; specifically the part of the definition that infers that it's for entertainment.
#2.5.3 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(1) | Report
gamingdroid  +   1051d ago
***1. Firmware based limitation that exists on PC but can be overwritten (aka you are right on that point)***

The USB port is fine transferring data at faster than 15 MB/s. In fact real life transfer speed is 40 MB/s for USB 2.0 so I'm not sure what the firmware based limitation is in PCs?

***2. Ignore the fact that field of vision shrinks exponentially with your statement that it could work at 0.8m.***

You only need to focus on the hands, so why would you care if the field of vision can see the body? In fact, that is the point. The further you go out, the tracking fidelity goes down.

***3. Ignore that 640x480 still isn't enough resolution to track arms and fingers in the wide range of movement required (see the CopyCat ASL Kinect demo to see limitation at a good depth).***

That is because you are tracking the entire body (based on the video I saw) as a skeleton. See comment in 2).

***4. Ignore that even though you believe it to be possible, there is no proof of anything even close to what is shown in the video for finger tracking.***

There are finger tracking videos, but we are not talking about proof. There are no proof in either direction, but it appears Kinect do have the fidelity at 1.3 mm tracking. If you can make the software figure it out what you are doing, that's another question.

***5. Continue to blindly argue for Microsoft for some reason, which isn't what you were foing 6 months ago. Yes, it really is you promoting all things MS the last few months.***

mrmm.... good one! How about we focus on the topic at hand instead of attacking me? I could easily have said the same about you, but I will leave it at that and try not to stoop at that level.

***I'm seeing less and less reason to have debates with you when you wish to just look for snippets that don't actually prove the possibilities as dictated in the video.***

So what do you want me to show you, when you haven't shown me anything to the contrary? Your statements in parts of our conversation so far is even based on essentially rumors.

Lack of proof doesn't prove possibility or impossibility.

The only main limitation I see is how complex it can be to interpret the data i.e. obscured parts and Kinect isn't likely able to detect pressure on the strings for instance.

However, 1.3 mm fidelity is enough to track fingers if you could figure it out in software. It seems some has already hacked stuff out in their basement.

Finger tracking is largely a software problem at this point it seems.
#2.5.4 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(4) | Report
cgoodno  +   1051d ago
***You only need to focus on the hands, so why would you care if the field of vision can see the body? In fact, that is the point. The further you go out, the tracking fidelity goes down. ***

No, for instrument playing arms are vital as well, especially for determining position of the bow as well as the placement of the hand on the neck can be almost two feet away from each other with cello and hand placement across a full keyboard. For ASL, arm movement and gestures to both sides as well as around your head are required. Feet are required if you are tracking pedals for piano.

***That is because you are tracking the entire body (based on the video I saw) as a skeleton. See comment in 2). ***

Only upper body, but that is what is required for ASL.

***There are finger tracking videos, but we are not talking about proof.***

No, there are finger point detection videos, not articulating finger tracking, which includes finger bending and crossing/overlapping. Pretty much the same finger pointing that MS showed off at E3, which just treated thr finger as a pointer and did not recognize its movements outside of being a single point at the tip of the finger.

See link I posted in other comment below.

*** There are no proof in either direction, but it appears Kinect do have the fidelity at 1.3 mm tracking.***

No, it's still not enough. You and I will have to completely disagree, but finger tracking has used 3d modeling, including the GTech guys who did the Kinect ASL demo, because it's not high enough of a resolution or requires way too much processing. The logic already exists for performing analysis of finger movement on a 3d level (determining finger placement behind other fingers). But, they still use 3d because the algorithm combined with HD cameras still show at a lower quality and require a lot more processing.

***How about we focus on the topic at hand instead of attacking me? I could easily have said the same about you, but I will leave it at that and try not to stoop at that level. ***

Hmmm.. Observation is now an attack?

***The only main limitation I see is how complex it can be to interpret the data ***

I think you think this hardware is way more advanced than it is or think that detailed finger tracking of playing a cello or piano doesn't require as much data as it does.

You take a 640x480 picture of two hands in a specific gesture and run an algorith against it and not only is it going to require some complex logic to remodel it in 3d digitally, it's also going to have a much greater chance of making an error. IR helps this, but primarily on the 3d interpretation, which will still require a high level of processing and still have good chance of error considering the proximity ofnthe data on a smaller scale.

In the end, you and I will have to disagree, but I'm already going on two years of MS saying this device is the future without ever proving it. How long are we to wait before it's support of our disbelief of it being possible at the level they are attempting to sell in the commercial, let alone close to it?
#2.5.5 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(1) | Report
gamingdroid  +   1051d ago
***No, for instrument playing arms are vital as well, especially for determining position of the bow as well as the placement of the hand on the neck can be almost two feet away from each other with cello and hand placement across a full keyboard. ....***

Two feet is hardly the same as full body tracking that needs to see portions of the floor as evident in actual use and as you mentioned, exponential decay.

***
No, there are finger point detection videos, not articulating finger tracking, which includes finger bending and crossing/overlapping.***

There are already stuff that shows the vectors of finger directions. This is now largely a software problem, not hardware anymore. Which is why I think Kinect is capable.

***You and I will have to completely disagree***

... but like anything, people didn't believe you could do motion capture at a $150 either.

***Hmmm.. Observation is now an attack?***

Your observation is irrelevant to the discussion and only used as some sort of ammunition to discredit me. How about you disprove me with proof like I have shown you, because where I'm sitting it sounds like the pot is calling the kettle and I'm trying to keep the conversation civil.

Like you, I'm less and less interested in discussing if all you do is provide overly generalized and blanket statements without anything backing it up.

***I think you think this hardware is way more advanced than it is or think that detailed finger tracking of playing a cello or piano doesn't require as much data as it does.***

I might underestimate the detail needed to play cello or piano, but looking at the specs I don't see why it isn't a possibility instead of assuming it is an impossibility.

***You take a 640x480 picture of two hands in a specific gesture and run an algorith against it and not only is it going to require some complex logic to remodel it in 3d digitally, it's also going to have a much greater chance of making an error....***

That is what they thought about skeleton tracking too, and that is why many of those systems cost gobs and gobs of money and use quite a few cameras so they don't have to do the computation.

... but now we got Kinect for $150 and the things it has opened is nothing short of amazing and more than I expect already.

***...I'm already going on two years of MS saying this device is the future without ever proving it...***

New technology requiring more than two years to see benefits? Parts of this thing has been in research for decades.

Somehow these problems are going to be resolved in matter of 2-years, when the product hasn't been in consumers (and vast majority of researches) hand just about a year?

All I have to say is as simple as, the original console controller is a far cry from what we have today to be able to do what we can today. Yet it has taken it almost 3-decades on such a simple problem.

So why would you think that these problems would be solved in 1-2 years?

I can't help, but think that I have heard that oh so many times before by the naysayers yet we have Kinect sitting right there.

Let's face it, so far Kinect has opened many many things and it is slowly being integrated into hospitals and even then it is a *huge* work in progress. To get to grip with this new possibilities, it is likely going to take many more years.

That said, if it is a computation or software problem somebody out there will likely figure out a faster way to do it.
#2.5.6 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(3) | Report
johnnywit  +   1051d ago
I don't know if it could detect someone playing a violin but i have seen videos on youtube of kinect detecting finger movements. Search kinect finger detection.
cgoodno  +   1051d ago
There has been point tracking (finger tips) but not articulation. Even MS showed that iff at E3 calling it finger tracking.

I hope MS puts out a 1080p/60fps Kinect device with HD capable transfer rates and more built-in processing power for handling higher level processing (body and finger articulation along with logic to calculate 3d depth at all levels). That device could work to have consoles, TVs, and PCs generate multi-purpose apps for using it to navigate and perform detailed interactions with a screen.

People are right that it will never be equivalent to the speed and precision of a touch screen, but it can be precise enough and easier to use due to being at a distance.

But it needs these hardware updates.

Here's the current hacks I've found that are based on finger point tracking http://kinect.dashhacks.com...
#2.6.1 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(0) | Report
Shadonic  +   1051d ago
it can track finger gestures i mean isent that what the ghost recon future soldier kinect shooter shows and also the hacks< .< ? Really what kinect can do is dependent on the codeing that's put into the program or game and also the system its running on a powerful PC rig can do amazing things with kinect i mean it is running on a 5 - 6 year old console and it came out a year ago.
matt801   1051d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(2)
BrightFalls76  +   1051d ago
Good commercial? Yes. But the problem is that an actual device that you touch will always be more precise than touching "air". Microsoft has a problem (just like their futuristic Windows phone commercial last week) where they can sell a great idea but they can't execute. Mainly because what they are selling is unrealstic to begin with.
#4 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(4) | Report | Reply
ChickeyCantor  +   1051d ago
Reminds me of how people went berserk over how Nintendo misled the consumer by thinking it was all 1:1( so say the people)...The people playing instruments is just NONSENSE...

Rage people! RAGE!!
#5 (Edited 1051d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
mcstorm  +   1051d ago
Kinect is going to get better and better every year because it is the software that runs the device not the hardware. I really do think kinect is the devices that will make the biggest change to computers since the mouse and keyboard because of what it offers. Voice control and tracking. MS have said since the start that they are only scratching the serfice of kinect and i think that is true. If you look at things people have said kinect cant do sin it was called project natal and there is not alot it cant do now with the updates for finger tracking object scanning 4 players sitdown tracking ect. People need to remember the tech is only 1 year old for the public. Plus if you look at ms as a company now to 2 or 3 years ago they have started to make quality software again and are starting to pull the company in one direction for everything to work with everything microsoft where before they offered everything but none of it worked together.

I am looking forward to seeing what ms amd other tech companys do with kinect over the next few years as i think we will see some amazing things.
ChickeyCantor  +   1051d ago
In this case you are wrong about the hardware.
Since MS decided to cut internal hardware and use software to run the cam it basically had a huge cut on the performance.

The hardware in this case did improve the functionality.
Shadonic  +   1051d ago
it really has made a Big impact on other things besides gaming.
StarWolf  +   1051d ago
i feel bad for the people buying this expecting it do be like the commercial. only to get some mess of a device that gets your arms tired and tangled while giving command prompts .
YodaCracker  +   1051d ago
Chills!

Add comment

You need to be registered to add comments. Register here or login
Remember
New stories

R-Type I and II Released on the OUYA

7m ago - Hardcore Gamer: Less than a week after the Amazon Appstore version of R-Type was made available f... | Android
10°

Graal Seeker RPG On Indiegogo Channels The Banner Saga

13m ago - GG3 writes: "Developer Lugludum from Lyon, Frace has put up their funding campaign for roleplayin... | PC
30°

Wait a Minute, is Destiny Just an Inferior Version of Diablo III?

13m ago - Hardcore Gamer: Wait just a second here. Is Destiny just a lesser version of Diablo III? | Xbox 360
10°

Tales Of Zestiria New Livestream To Be Aired On September 29th

17m ago - The new Tales Of Zestiria livestream will be aired on September 29th on Nico Nico | PS3
Ad

Need Cash? (US Only)

Now - How would it feel to have your money struggles solved by this time tomorrow? We give fast loans from $100-$10,000+, and repayment terms up to 60 mo... | Promoted post
40°

Sunset Overdrive Was Originally ‘The Insomniac Version of DayZ’

18m ago - Sunset Overdrive wasn’t always the over-the-top action game it once was, Game Director Drew Murra... | Xbox One