280°
Submitted by Karooo 1155d ago | video

Forza 4′s A.I. Found Considerably lacking Compared to Forza 3 and GT5

GB : Check out this AI comparison between Gran Turismo 5 and Forza 4. You wouldn’t believe it but Forza 3 actually seems to have better A.I. than Forza 4. Turn 10 needs some explaining to do because this video is just hilarious. (Forza Motorsport 4, PS3, Xbox 360)

Attached Video
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Karooo  +   1155d ago
How did Turn 10 manage to downgrade the A.I from Forza 3? Wtf.
Dante112  +   1155d ago
Wonder what happened? The reviews said F4 had the best AI in any racer they've ever played, even said Forza 4 was the king. O.O
#1.1 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(45) | Disagree(10) | Report | Reply
The Meerkat  +   1155d ago
In Forza 4 the A.I can make mistakes.
I.e. run wide, early brake etc.

You park on a corner you EXPECT cars to hit you!

That's MORE realistic not less.
gypsygib  +   1155d ago
Reviewers lie all the time, for example Joystiq gave Child of Eden and that ridiculous puppet shooter 100% scores.

Reviewers are very pressured by some to give better scores than what games deserve.
Biggest  +   1155d ago
The Meerkat apparently lives in a reality outside of actual reality. Go watch ANY race. The drivers avoid contact at all costs. Even when a wreck happens there are techniques used to have the highest possibility of avoidance. No real driver, which is what the AI is supposed to be emulating, would hit a highly visible PARKED vehicle. Not only are there no obstructions leading into and out of the turn (meaning they have full vision of what is coming), but there is also ample room to pass above or below the obstacle. They aren't taking that turn at 200mph, bro.
theonlylolking  +   1155d ago
When I played the demo that was a big thing I notcied. The AI was retarded. I would brake and they would slam in the back of my car and cause me to spin.

@abriael
http://www.youtube.com/watc...
EVILDEAD360  +   1155d ago
Fail....

It's called difficulty settng and scalable AI.

Next up this vid of Black Ops on veteran shows that Modern Warfare 3's A.I. In normal is too easy.

Forza is easy to jump in but is made to cater to racers of all levels..hence the good reviews and feedback from the hardcore gamer racing community.

Nice try, but it's too late to hate. The game is amazing.

edit

LOL..this video isn't talking about the AI when the game is in motion..it's showing the AI of vehicles when you turn your car around and stop you vehicle in the middle of the road?? And it's only showing one vid that looks the worst when random occurances happen everytime you do it.

Silly..but watch what this turns into in the comments section (already you got some saying 'reviewers lied LOL)

Evil
#1.1.5 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(19) | Disagree(58) | Report
DK286K   1155d ago | Spam
Perjoss   1155d ago | Immature | show
SantistaUSA  +   1155d ago
@DK286K Bwahahahaha that video is awesome, got a good laugh out of it, bubbles to you my friend! :D
sdtarm  +   1155d ago
where are those journalists that criticized GT5 so much for its "terrible" AI now?
malol   1155d ago | Trolling | show
JokesOnYou  +   1155d ago
lmfao, Never mind the fact that different difficulties create different outcomes regarding the AI, but Are you guys seriously saying that 1 vid, under 1 circumstance, on 1 track is definitive proof that Forza4 has worst AI than GT5? lol, I've heard it all now. uhhmmm you guys do know their are plenty of GT5 vids about bad AI, right? Why are they showing spec 2.0? I've been reading comments by GT fans saying the AI is improved. Ahh, but yeah, everbody lied in GT5 reviews.

Fact is depending on the difficulty setting you will see alot of different things from the AI, they are more prone to wideturns, oversteering, and downright stupid mistakes at lower levels=

"The racer AI is noticeably better in Forza 4. Racers are appropriately agressive, but not perfect; one of my only gripes in Forza 3 was that AI cars made too few mistakes, and rarely strayed from racing lines. In Forza 4 you'll see cars spin out, go off the track, and do stupid things, and what's great is that none of it seems fake or generated." Reviewers loved the AI in Forza4 because its more life like. You can learn more about Forza4's great here:
http://forzamotorsport.net/...
#1.1.11 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(6) | Report
4Sh0w  +   1155d ago
Yeah its obvious GT fans are just pissed off because all the reviewers liked Forza4 more than GT5, especially because these two games are direct competitors in their respective genre's. Some people have a hard time dealing with reality, so they get desperate and will grab at straws to try and say everybody is wrong and they are right. You know thats what fanboys do best.
archmage  +   1148d ago
Wow, it's amazing how many people playing Forza 4 don't understand that Forza is Mircosoft's answer to Gran Turismo which is a racing simulator not an arcade racer. We're not talking about NFS here people. The whole point of these simulators is for the player to drive as if they were in a real race. There are stiff penalities for running other drivers off the track, hitting other cars, going off the track, and other things which would be encouraged in an arcade racer. Professional drivers are not going to run into a car just sitting in plain sight; they are going to slow down and go around the car. Understand that simulators are trying to mimic real world racing with all that implies, so AI that can't recognize other cars on the track is not a good thing. And, btw, the difficulty setting for Forza 4 doesn't matter because I play on expert with all aids turned off and this still happens. When you get up to R1 level cars the AI cars will sometimes hit you from behind at the start of the race. Not cool. For me, because I do care about driving sims, this AI problem has ruined the game for me.
Abriael  +   1155d ago
The explanation is actually quite simple. And it's the same reason why the AI of Forza 3 was slightly better than that of GT5 in some areas.

More cars on track = Less space to dodge = more AI elements the engine needs to operate = Less CPU resources for each one = stupider AI.

GT5 has better AI now because they had a lot of time to iterate and optimize it.
vulcanproject  +   1155d ago
Pretty much. Forza 4's car count has increased to try to compete with GT5's higher count, and that means less performance for each individual AI routine.

Less CPU time per car, more variables to calculate, dumber AI.
Abriael  +   1155d ago
Lol at all the people disagreeing with a simple fact and logic :D
killerhog  +   1155d ago
It's still 16 racers though, more than forza 4. So what does that say??
#1.2.3 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(2) | Report
Heartnet  +   1155d ago
Cuz The Ai reaction time isnt based on the CPU speed lol its based on how well its coded etc and i mean everything,... down to how well they take corners etc...

If its coded bad then ofc its gonna suck lol
gypsygib  +   1155d ago
More power to graphics means less for AI
disturbing_flame  +   1155d ago
I remember those reviews explaining why GT5 couldn't reach perferct scores because of its AI.

And now guess what ?

It looks that it's not a problem in F4.
evilunklebud  +   1155d ago
But F4 is not a perfect game, as its meta of 91 reflects. I would agree with you if it was at 100 across the board.
disturbing_flame  +   1155d ago
Of course it is not, some reviewers did their job.
evilunklebud  +   1155d ago
This isn't really a racing situation most people would find themselves in, now is it...? unless you're retarded, or incredibly bad at the game(s).

Show me race situation AI glitches and we'll talk.
#1.5 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(13) | Disagree(5) | Report | Reply
MerkinMax  +   1155d ago
I'm not going to discredit the video because it does prove something. But I am sorry, I care about the how the AI performs when I am actually competing and you know, actually racing.
TKCMuzzer  +   1155d ago
Maybe not but it does clearly show that the AI won't avoid a car that would spin in the middle of the track. Of course in real life you could technically spin a car and stall it in the middle of the track, which would be pretty distressing if real racers performed like the AI above.
evilunklebud  +   1155d ago
@TKCMuzzer But would the AI treat a "drone" the same way?

I need to see it to be convinced. We are all speculating at this point.
kneon  +   1155d ago
Turn off all the driver aids in a high power car and most people will end up spinning out sooner rather than later.

I've ended up in a position similar to that in the video while playing, but of course I don't just sit there. I try to get turned around ASAP which just adds more difficulty for the AI.
evilunklebud  +   1155d ago
@kneon

I'm not sure a race spin would be harder for the AI or not. I mean, it must have some logic to how it would handle that situation, and just sitting facing oncoming traffic is not how it would expect a driver to react.

I'm not saying it would not happen, I just need to see it (hey, I'm a scientist, ok).

I am pretty much assist free in GT5 and F4, btw...
#1.5.5 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(0) | Report
kneon  +   1155d ago
@evilunklebud

Once you start trying to get your car back to facing the right way arouund you are you are adding more difficulty to the AI as the car is now moving and the game can't easily predict which way you will go. As long as you stay still it should be easy for the cars to avoid you.

But in real life just sitting there after a spin is not uncommon, usually drivers will wait until they can safely turn around as they aren't keen on ramming into other cars, unless their name is Lewis Hamilton :)
#1.5.6 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(2) | Report
evilunklebud  +   1155d ago
Until I see AI problems racing I'm still not convinced. Just as I was when a similar situations arose in GT5. I've not had issues with either AI.....
Heartnet  +   1155d ago
Then again u wudnt find anybody in real life hit a highly visible parked car... you wouldnt find anyone in that situation now would you
killerhog  +   1155d ago
It's the same reason why turn 10 didn't deliver 90% of what they promised (weather, night/day transition, limited auto vista to 20 predetermine cars ONLY, etc.). The 360 reached its peak long ago and DVD cannot hold much, in order to increase they would of had to decrease on other things. Yet these reviewers are throwing 10s at forza 4 ( puffing much)?

But thank god forza does not have parallel parking 3:05-3:10. Also at times the AI in forza doesn't even try to maneuver around but just tried the ol' ram technique. I was very impressed by the gt5 AI imma pop that bad boy in and go a few hours racing till I gotta study.
ambientFLIER  +   1155d ago
So weather and more autovista models is 90% of the game? So what is the other 10? Insignificant things like graphics, sound, and handling?
kaveti6616  +   1154d ago
The fact that Turn 10 never made those promises is reason enough to dismiss you completely.
humbleopinion  +   1155d ago
@Karoo: this just shows you how some idiots like GB don't understand the difference between a bug and a feature.
Notice how at time 0:50 in Forza 4 the first two cars pass smoothly, and only when the player hits the breaks the other cars smash into him? Ask yourself why did they have to hit the brakes to prove their point. It's simply because that's how the new "pressure system" on AI in the game works...

Forza 4 Has better AI, it is just more realistic. If you pressure the AI it can make mistakes, just like real drivers. This obviously depends on the AI difficulty, and doesn't happen when setting the AI difficulty to "professional" - which GB obviously didn't set. What we see here is simply a handicap given to beginner drivers to make life easier.

The funny thing is that Turn 10 already announced exactly how this will be quite some time ago:
http://forzamotorsport.net/...
"We no longer remove power from the AI to make them slower on the lower difficulty levels. Instead, we gave the lower level AI less confidence going into corners. This makes them brake sooner and carry less speed through the corners. However, once they are at the apex and heading onto the straights, they are flat-out regardless of difficulty level. This has led to far more wheel-to-wheel racing. The key to beating the lower level AI is to take advantage of them in the braking zones and then block/frustrate them down the straights. On the flip side, this does mean the AI on lower difficulty settings brakes very early – so, watch yourself when you’re waiting to pop out of the slipstream"

This is why reviewers acknoledged the better AI in Forza 4. For example:
"The racer AI is noticeably better in Forza 4. Racers are appropriately agressive, but not perfect; one of my only gripes in Forza 3 was that AI cars made too few mistakes, and rarely strayed from racing lines. In Forza 4 you'll see cars spin out, go off the track, and do stupid things, and what's great is that none of it seems fake or generated."
#1.7 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(9) | Report | Reply
DK286K   1155d ago | Spam
onyoursistersback  +   1155d ago
hmmmmm...that dose look bad but, what i was paying more attention to the lack of car on the track!!!
uhhuh   1155d ago | Spam
Bathyj  +   1155d ago
Forzas drivers might be dumb but at least the bumper fell off. Thats kinda cool right?

Relax guys, I kid because I care.

PS
I swear to god this is true, I looked at the video and though WOW Forza looks better than I thought, only to realise it was GT.

I swear thats about the 3rd time thats happened to me with all these comparison videos.
#1.10 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
kikizoo  +   1155d ago
Not only AI, but physic and graphics/lights !! (even on that video you can see reality cars vs good game cars)
SkyCrawler  +   1155d ago
Who cares? Let's just pretend the A.I. is the best and move along. Noone will notice unlike that other game.

Edit: Guess I'm just used to the reddit community lol
#2 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(16) | Report | Reply
Biggest  +   1155d ago
At least 7 people need the /s tag. LOL!
enkeixpress  +   1155d ago
GT5 wins in the AI department... whereas Forza 4 wins in the graphics department.

I've played both of 'em & I've noticed that Forza 4 has alot more detail on it's tracks & the car models look really detailed especially in the AutoVista mode.. Pure EyeCandy.

I also love how F4 lets you be able to look all around the car (interior & exterior) with the right analogue stick. Why did Polyphony make the car models look so good in GT5 when you can't even admire 'em like you can in FM4? doesn't make any sense.. lol

I'm sorry but Forza 4 looks to be the more polished game, regardless of it's AI.. which will most likely be fixed in a future patch if the community see this & complain about it.
#3 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(9) | Disagree(46) | Report | Reply
tickticktick  +   1155d ago
Forza 4 is just a better game.
Abriael  +   1155d ago
The cars of Forza 4 don't even get near the premium models of GT5, sorry. The autovista cars are static models that really add nothing to the racing game itself (and the selection is minimal anyway, way to waste resources to put in that silly warthog instead of an actual relevant car).
Dlacy13g  +   1155d ago
waste resources..you mean like dumping 800 craptastic cars in the game so GT5 could boast 1000 cars? I will gladly take the route Turn 10 took.
ambientFLIER  +   1155d ago
Yes, because GT5 doesn't have any stupid and silly cars, right??? Funny how you say that Forza 4 cars don't get near the premium GT5 models, yet everyone else knows better...
C_Menz  +   1155d ago
There is a mode just like that in GT5...
r2kcipher  +   1155d ago
he would know that if he really played it like he said he did
IRetrouk  +   1155d ago
go to options and change the right stick to look around the interior in gt5, how can you not know this?
sashimi  +   1155d ago
I actually never knew that too ~_~ but then again i spent all my time racing and doing the license challenges.
IRetrouk  +   1155d ago
i usually change options in my games before i play, otherwise i would have missed it too, peps just need to look though instead of spouting a load of crap.
Cloudberry  +   1155d ago
In my opinion...
.
The drivers in one game certainly didn't love their own car.

XD
SantistaUSA  +   1155d ago
it was in drinking and driving mode lol :p
Godmars290  +   1155d ago
Have to ask why the breaks were on for the car in Forza 4.
mendicant  +   1155d ago
@Godmars290,

Exactly, I was asking the same thing.

Why in the GT clip, brake lights aren't on. In the Forza clip, they're on. I saw that and starting typing but you got to it first.

Kudos.
FighterJoe  +   1155d ago
The brake lights arn't in the GT5 clip because GT5 has a handbrake that stays on and holds the car if you hold it down for a couple seconds, thats what he did.

Obviously in Forza he just decided to hold the brake to make sure the car stays put.
kneon  +   1155d ago
Likely because he knew he would be hit and was trying to stay in the same position as long as possible rather then just get shoved out of the way like a couple of the cars were trying to do.
MrBeatdown  +   1155d ago
My guess would be to make it a more apples to apples comparison for the AI of individual passing cars, rather than a comparison of how the overall field reacts, since that's much harder to compare. It's much harder to say if it's AI fail, or accurate simulation of driver fail when dealing with major car pile-ups.

If in Forza, one car crashes and knocks the player car sideways, taking up even more room on the track, it's harder for the AI to avoid, and it's not as close of a comparison to GT5 anymore, since GT5's cars are passing one car, but the remaining Forza cars have to pass a cluster**** which could be more difficult for AI in either game.

By putting on the brakes, you keep, or are at least trying to keep the car from moving and getting knocked into a position making it less comparable to GT5.

As for why the brakes aren't on in GT5, I'd bet it's just a case of the guy recording GT5 first and only realizing there was a need to hold the break once the car was close to getting hit in Forza. It looked like the brake wasn't used until the car was headed right into him.

EDIT: kneon beat me to it. That's what I get for not refreshing before posting.
#5.3 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
smashcrashbash  +   1155d ago
Why bother pointing out faults ? No one will listen anyway. Just smile and nod. @ mendicant you misunderstand. I am talking about people in general. I never stated the GT5 didn't have faults, its just that people seem to ignore Forza 4's more. Most gamers ignore glaring faults in games and are usually in denial e.g. Rage and DI.
#6 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
mendicant  +   1155d ago
#6.1 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(6) | Report | Reply
Perjoss  +   1155d ago
this is perfectly normal, I've seen it happen many times on a real race track.

/s
GenoZStriker  +   1155d ago
ROFLMAO! The AI in Forza 4 is just as bad as me in driving game and that is saying a lot. I watched the video and when they showed Forza I though ":/ I don't understand why it's ba....LOL!" when the car hits.

But it can't be that bad if you are just focusing on your game can it? Or is it noticeable even during regular races?
#7 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(6) | Report | Reply
Biggest  +   1155d ago
Let's be honest. People complained about the trees in GT5. They paused the game and looked at the trees to better complain about them. Granted, the trees have nothing to do with the driving and look just fine while driving. . . Trees in the background are more important than the AI of the drivers you're racing. Of course the racers in the race on the racing game that you're racing are more or less invisible with all of the tree watching going on.
SixShotCop  +   1155d ago
Your response to my "long dev time" comment was completely retarded. Games are games. Stop being the usual defensive baby everyone has come to know.

Biggest BITCH is what you are.
Megaton   1155d ago | Trolling | show
Adropacrich2  +   1155d ago
The difficulty of AI can be set for Forza 4. We don't then actually know what setting this is here. Also don't forget that AI has been set to both mess up and drive well
Michael-Jackson  +   1155d ago
Yeah that video showed dumb AI in Forza 4.
DukeN13   1155d ago | Spam
mendicant  +   1155d ago
Not only that Adropacrich2, but I wonder what's up with the brake lights.

In the GT clip, the brake lights are off. In the F4 clip, they're on. Does this have anything to do with it? Would the lights being on trigger some kind of reaction from the AI?

Thoughts?
solidworm   1155d ago | Immature | show
AngelicIceDiamond  +   1155d ago
So the AI needs to be perfect drivers, and never ever mess up and they're suppose to have smooth driving 100% of the time. No, if the player can make mistakes so can the AI. You know like in real life where the world doesn't evolve around ONE driver.
Heartnet  +   1155d ago
not 100%.. but the video done the same thing 3 times and it happened 3 times.. so going by those statistics its not even 33% perfect
JokesOnYou  +   1155d ago
No the video shows 3 seperate film captures, they could have easily produced this from many film captures where the AI performed the same, also remember the difficulty setting makes the AI react differently on lower settings, also YES Turn10 purposely made the lower settings AI MORE prone to mistakes which is YES more realistic for beginner drivers.
RyuDrinksTheDew  +   1155d ago
doesnt really prove anything. there are multiple things to factor in.

1. What difficulty is the AI set on in Forza 4?
2. Why do the experiment in conditions that arent realistic for the game?
3. (As other people have stated.) Why is the car braking in F4 and not in GT5?

If you look, in the 1st Forza 4 clip, he brakes right has the Jaguar XJ220 comes up to him.

Im taking this with a grain of salt. i havent experienced ANYTHING like this.
cvflyboy  +   1155d ago
obviously the creator of the video knew that gt5 AI wouldn't slam into him so he didn't need the brakes.He knew forzas Ai would slam into him so without the brakes on he would end up in the grass.:)
Dlacy13g  +   1155d ago
Good AI in driving games is going to be reflective of the difficulty level...so something on easy or normal should be much more prone to getting caught up in a spin out, accident or just poor driving lines... as you ramp up the difficulty the AI should in turn get more reactive and less likely to be caught in a misshap.

Moving on, I am sure there will be plenty of trolling articles to come with BF3 and MW3 coming too. I will be shocked if we dont see a Gears 3 vs Uncharted 3 AI video.
BeaArthur  +   1155d ago
In the first video the car is sitting at the exit to a turn and in the second it is on a straight away. Maybe if you did a comparison with the same variables it would be a credible comparison.
fabiani  +   1155d ago
yea forza n gears undeserved perfect scores accross the board free pass on alll the flaws
fabiani  +   1154d ago
SOO MANY FORZAS WHOS DESPERATE
Oldman100  +   1155d ago
Everyone join the party.

Related image(s)
#19 (Edited 1155d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
DigitalRaptor   1155d ago | Trolling | show
sin151   1155d ago | Spam
Venjense   1155d ago | Trolling | show
Pyscho_Mantis  +   1155d ago
People above saying that GT5's AI is just as bad lolol...you clearly did not see the spec 2.0 sign in GT's part. Show me a vid that is Gt5 spec 2.0 that has bad AI please. Also that f40 in Forza 4 looks horrible....the brake lights are even worst and people said this game had good modelling...yeah in one mode where the car is the only thing modelled and is not moving lol.
DK286K   1155d ago | Spam
devilhunterx   1155d ago | Trolling | show
earbus  +   1155d ago
Lol the ai is way better if i hit a car the will fight back and they are alot faster than other forza games im lovin the whole deal the tyre physics are just perfect.
testerg35  +   1155d ago
I have to agree that Forza 4's AI is bad when you're faced the wrong way, but why are the GT5 cars going so slow considiring its almost a blind turn?
PirateThom  +   1155d ago
There's a car in the way and they're having to slow down to cut across it. They're usually slow on the approach, fast on the exit.
kaveti6616  +   1154d ago
PirateThom, how come of the 50 or so people who commented on this video before, only a handful of them asked the critical question: "What difficulty setting is Forza 4 set at?"

We can appreciate that AI in games is never perfect, but to see this many dumb people being so quick to conclude that Forza 4's AI is terrible without even asking for video proof of the difficulty setting is even more depressing.

The people who make these kinds of videos and post them to the internet shouldn't be trusted so easily.

The person who posted this may have wanted to show Forza 4 in a bad light, and it's possible he could have decreased the difficulty setting of the AI to the lowest point, while keeping GT5's AI at a high setting.
PirateThom  +   1154d ago
Difficulty shouldn't affect the AI's spacial awareness, it should still avoid a static object in the way at any difficulty.

If you don't trust it, do it yourself. Prove it wrong like people did with GT5 vs F3 AI when GT5 launched and had "questionable" videos made about the AI which were shown to be false. I never even made a comment about Forza's AI though.
#26.1.2 (Edited 1154d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report
kaveti6616  +   1154d ago
But why do you think that?

If a human being has below average intelligence, then his spatial awareness will be reduced.

Why should a below average (easy setting) AI not have reduced spatial awareness?
timotim  +   1155d ago
What difficulty is this on?
2v1  +   1155d ago
dont matter how stupid the ai is, after all they are bots ordered to go in circles for no reason..those trees look to good they must have tasty fruits!
JonnyBigBoss  +   1155d ago
Amen!

Gran Turismo 5 is a beast!
MasterCornholio  +   1155d ago
Wtf LOL I wonder where he got his drivers license.

XperiaRay
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