Developers are creatively limited by the current generation consoles, according to Matthew Karch, CEO of Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary single-player developer Saber Interactive.
WTF does the PS3 have to do with Halo?
he is just saying in general for video games, not just Halo
I think what Godmars is trying to say is that the Halo developer can't make that statement about the PS3 because they have never worked on the PS3.
How do you know the dev that said that doesn't have experience working with the PS3? Saber Interactive has made/is making PS3 games.
@Pandamobile I apologise they have made Timeshift for the PS3. I will say though, that I hear a lot of developers saying they need limits. Each to their own, I suppose.
I don't think Timeshift pushed the limits of either console. Technically or creatively.
The trick is on how to optimize the game for the console.
All hardware has limits, hardware that's half a decade old even more so. You don't have to be an expert at all the platforms to understand that. I'm all for optimizing, but if some of the "just optimize better" people had their way, we would still be playing 'optimized' PS2 games. Sometimes more power *does* allow for fuller gameplay experiences.
No matter how optimized, SotC, Ico and GoW are, they would never look close on PS2 to what they look like as remakes for PS3; and those remakes look nothing close to PS3 games! Optimizing has it's limits and I'd rather play games a generation better, than slightly better optimized games! But he can still do Uncharted 3! That's not bad and he's not doing anywhere close to that!
@DaTruth...I would agree and disagree. I think technologically YES I would love to play games from this gen. However, creatively there were several gems from generations past that could teach a few classes on how to create a game that is as visually appealing as possible AND provide an experience that is rarely duplicated. SoTC and Ico are 2 examples of that.
There's no limit to imagination, if they got good concepts the game will be fantastic. Those devs are just lazy, they don't want to create a new franchise, they just want to make of the game they did by the past but instead of making them evolve in their gameplay, narration, mecanism; they just want to evolve on the technical part. They just want to make games with better graphisms. It's the easy path.
@DisturbingFlame if you actually read the post you would see he dosnt mention graphics as much as he mentions processor power i order to do things like real dynamic crowds, liquid simulations and better cloth simulations, soft body dynamics, flexible joints. and thats just the tip of the iceberg. imagine 128 vs 128 players in BF3 and so on.
it is creatively limiting if you're working on Halo franchise or any franchise that is already established. starting afresh with the new IP is the right way to go.
Creatively limiting? "Hi. I am in the running for ROTY!" (retard of the year) I have my preorder in for HALO Anniversary and can't wait for the game to launch. This revamped title can still steam roll most current games easily. It is a landmark title... ...but that comment is idiotic. When a person such as this individual begins to produce titles from scratch like the HALO CE with which he is involved then he can begin to say something. Irony much? That is what makes his remarks such a farce. He is working on updating a ground breaking title THAT WAS BUILT ON LAST GENERATION HARDWARE AND STILL OUTSHINES MOST GAMES MADE TODAY. It isn't all about the purty graphics butthead. I read this persons remarks, then look at what Sony is doing with Eve and Dust 514. Suddenly I think, "Hey. Maybe those people that support forced sterilization for genetically warped individuals are onto something because Matthew Karch is a poster child for such action." Has he seen the sand in Uncharted 3? Look at LucasArts Euphoria, that was demoed last generation. That never matierialized and it wasn't this gen's hardware that was the issue. Yes more power, more memory, more advanced GPU's are great but that isn't the most important factor in next gen gameplay. It's imagination that says I am going to change the way people interface with each other. I am not going to make the same FPS with the gun sticking in the field of view from the right side. Working on HALO CE and stating current consoles are creatively limiting is an easy nomination for Self Pwnage.
You can always trust a developer on these things that makes top tier games like "Time Shift" and "Battle:LA".....you know, games that made us rethink the ps3/360. /s lol, they're lucky that someone made this next game (Halo remaster) FOR them; it will be their best for sure! Their biggest limitation is their own selves.
I think Working on a 10 year old game is 'creatively limiting'
you dont think ND could do more with a new playstation? You dont think Kojima could do more with a PS4? You dont think turn 10, EpiC and 343 could do more with a new xbox? Hes making a general statement about the console industry, and it is 100% true. This guy could have worked on Ps3 before as saber is not a 360 exclusive dev, but any developer knows that 5+ year old tec is limiting the possibilities. They could make a huge, more ambitions game in may ways on the powerful development PCs, but it wouldnt run on the consoles. If you dont think a multiplat developer can comment on the consoles because he is working on just an xbox game currently you are funny. Share you knowledge with us then??? If you say anything other than the current consoles are limiting all developers then you are wrong. Even new consoles will have limits. Its just that these consoles are pretty outdated and the gap is growing and growing between the consoles and the powerful machines the they make the games on.
I haven't seen this whimsical game. Has anyone? People keep forgetting that developers have to make their games for all kinds of lower end systems, and that includes LOW END PC's and Laptops that in the current state, are typeically less capable game machines than the HD consoles. Take WITCHER 2, a PC exclusive, was that limited by consoles? That's now coming to the XBOX 360, and I'd put money on it that the XBOX 360 version will run as well or better than the Minimum PC specs. If anything, consoles bring creativity by enabling developers to do things with consoles they weren't supposed to do. MLAA for example, has spawned DLAA and FXAA, and other offshoots. Optimizations with consoles are the key.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Consoles provide a standard set of specs, whereas with developing games for PC's, you've got to keep in mind tons of different combinations of hardware (varying amounts of RAM, processing speeds, graphics cards, etc.).
absolutely spot on mate.
This "whimsical game" hasn't happened yet, but that type of logic looks backwards if you apply the same reasoning to previous generations. There are plenty of games on current consoles and modern PCs that couldn't have been done on the PS2/Xbox1/Gamecube. The additional power has allowed for not only better visuals, but improved AI, physics and more. What makes you so sure we won't see the same thing happen again when the next consoles roll around? Just because you can't imagine it now, doesn't mean it won't happen.
It depends on how you define "can't be done." BF3 on consoles doesn't perform anywhere close to how it does on a high end PC. That can be said for a lot of games. I for one am ready for the next gen.
Battlefield 3 had to be cut down to size considerably to be played on console.It's a fact that Rage could have been a much larger game if the Xbox 360's discs had more storage space.The games can be done but they could be done much better with new consoles.
No shit sherlock, but you missing the whole point the guy's trying to make! He is expressing his desire to push things furhar then they can be pushed now at a technical level so that they may then spread their wings and travel beyond the current benchmarks at the artistic level which is constrained naturally by aging hardware. You can't paint a color image with a lead pencil. Ya got it!?
Yeah because Crysis is obviously the same experience as an XBLA/PSN title as it is on a high-end PC? Keep dreaming. The optimization for consoles turned one of the highest rated benchmarking games into just another skybox-oriented, near-linear shooter. For people who enjoy Super Mario Bros. 2 on the NES you can play it and enjoy it. That's fine. No gripes here. However, some of us would like to see what developers can do with 8gig of RAM, a 2ghz GPU and 4ghz or more of a hexacore CPU. If you want more down-graded experiences on consoles that's fine, but I didn't upgrade my PC so GTA IV could run as crappy as it does because it was optimized for the Xbox 360. You might like that but I was sick of the same two cars spawning all the freaking time because of the console's RAM limitations. No thanks.
@persistantthug when the witcher 2 comes out on consoels it will be sub-hd, covered in jaggies, riddled with pop-in, run at a 20-30 framerate at best, lack high resolution textures, not have soft shadows and honestly, it will look nothing like what it looks like on a decent mid range pc, let alone a high end pc that can max it out. Ohhh and I'll name a few complete and utter failures on ps3/360 that should neve have been ported to consoles from pc Lord of the Rings Battle for middle earth 2 Supreme commander 1 and 2 they were SLIDESHOWS whenever more than 10 units were onscreen....never should have even been made for console. hell to be honest dark souls and GTAIV run so terrible on console, they should have either downgraded the visuals or lowered the resolution even more and I freaking LOVE Dark souls, but play around at the firelink shrine, blighttown, the depths and watch the framerate drop town to single digits, yes....like 7 frame per second freaking slideshow I think with dark souls more optimizations could have been made or something, cause that game ain't no beauty pagent winner....maybe implementing loading screens or something. But, the 360 is six years old, the ps3 5, it is BEYOND time for new machines for devs to flex their muscles in, they have squeezed every single last drop from the consoles and that is why no game since uncharted 2 has been even remotely impressive on console!
@Persistanthug Battlefield 3 64players with 3.0 Destruction. Console players get the ultra dumbed down version, it's not war at all. Might as well rename it for consoles "Desolationfield 3"
Can somebody explain to me why Persistantthug gets so many Agrees with such a, lets be frank, not very clever comment. Every fucking game these days are made to work on consoles with the exception of MMOs. There is noone pushing the boundries of what can be done on a high end PC because its not financially feasible to make such a massive game with such a small market. Therefor no such game will be made until the next generation of consoles come out. Its not hard to imagine though some of the possibilities that next gen hardware would present. Simple things like more enemies on screen, more and smarter AIs could make a huge difference in gameplay. You can have battles that feel truly massive and you wont have more enemies dropping in everytime you kill an enemy just because the engine wont allow for more then a few enemies on screen at once. Personally im looking forward to more bigger more open games with huge drawdistances. In most games nowadays the leveldesign is so obviously trying to hide the limits of the engines. I want to see games where the designers can make the levels however they like to, without having all these restrictions. Certainly there will always be some restrictions but they should be minor next gen compared to this gen. I feel like games this generation has little more to offer that we havent really seen before and i dont have a problem seeing how developers are being creatively limited. I often think of games that would be cool and very often i realise it just wouldnt work on the current generation of consoles.
Another developer who makes mediocre games complaining about current gen consoles limitations. Yet they can't top Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, Battlefield, Batman and many more.
These sorts of statements just sound defensive to me. They do not appear to have any faith in what they are producing so are blamming it on the current technology instead of their own shortcommings.
Saber Interactive also works on multi-platform games.
Mean while at Sony..... Uncharted Metal Gear InFamous Little Big Planet Resistance Killzone creativity limited? those are all pretty damn creative games if you ask me.
remember, according to the media...PS3 sucks! Xbox the bestestest, period. Kinect, gets a pass! Live hacking, gets a pass! Multiple discs, gets a pass! Move, shit apprently! PSN hack, you now wha happened! "MANDATORY! installs, oh the horror!
Killzone? creative? LOLOLL. i didnt know a corridor simulator borrowing game mechanics from better games and implementing them poorly is creative...
@SJPFTW nice job taking 1 game out of the 6 I listed and trying to prove my point wrong.
Am I the only one who sees the irony in a guy who is REMAKING a game is talking about limited creativity?
The only way you could be limited is by your imagination.
"The best way to put it is it's kind of like being given a Lego set with 100 block and a set with 1000 - you can do a lot more with the second set. You have more wiggle room and more blocks to make something big and great." 100 Block Lego=XBOX360 1000 Block Lego=PS3 1000000 Block Lego=PC
That's a total BS analogy, oversimplified. Maybe that is how a designer (not as in tech design) thinks. Pure quantity. We had this problem over and over in the past and it just shows a disconnect between art design and understanding techology. It's not simply the number of blocks you can use. Those are much closer if you want to use this analogy. But they also differ in size. You probably can have a 1000 small ones in consoles, and 1500 big ones on the PC. Now, that hits he mark much better. Now be creative and use smaller blocks to build something. That might actually help. But some people have big hands. They like to play with Duplo instead of Lego Tech.
Halo devs can't make a statement like that without adding "ps3" = dammage control for the fans..
Naughty Dog give you my friend, a big middle finger.
I'm sure Naughty Dog are itching to get their hands on the PS4 so they don't have to jump through hundreds of hoops trying to fit everything into 256 MB of RAM.
Trying to run things through two sets of RAM you mean. @Ulf: Of course its not that big a deal, that's why I said it. It also why there will always have the argument of PS3 exclusive looking better than Xbox 360 ones. That the 360 will have the edge with most multiplatform titles, because they're built more with the 360 in mind.
If Naughty Dog gave me a big middle finger i'd just... ...Don't aim on their ass!
@Godmars290 Split memory pools is not really as big an issue as you might think. Typically, games use at least 256MB for screenbuffers/meshes/textures/ etc, and swapping in some additional space from main RAM isn't really a big deal. Not any bigger deal than having to do tiled rendering in a small 10MB eDRAM framebuffer, for example -- maybe even easier. PC devs have done this same thing (as the PS3) for eons.
must have been some big hoops, if you look at uncharted 2... the best game this gen in my opinion.
This gen is relies too much on prerenderd and quick time events
I'm guessing you've never played an Uncharted game before.
But most of Uncharted 2's cut-scenes are pre-rendered.
This gen we have a lot of pc fanboys commenting on console related topics.
Panda, stop talking about things you really don't know nothing about, they are not.(and it's 256X2 rambus)
@Pandamobile, who told you that??? I wanna bitch slap some sense into that person
ahahha thats pretty insulting to naughty dog. You dont think they could make a much more amazing game with more powerful hardware???? you would probably faint if you saw what they could do with a PS4. This guy is right, all devs could do more with more power. if they use that power is up to them. but the great devs now, like ND that you mention, could do far more with new consoles then they could with the current ones. Imagine what just U3 ported to PS4 could be like. Same game but in native 1080P 60FPS and 4x AA and already is a huge improvement. now imagine Unchated 4 on PS4 compared to U3. 1080P, 60FPS. but with better textures, more polygons, better AA/AF, better AI, better draw distance, bigger areas, more characters on screen, better effects, shorter loads, more people online possibly, etc. Any good dev could use more power right about now. Just because this multiplat dev is working on an xbox game doesnt mean he cant know what every developer in the industry does too. Edit- if you people really dont think the ps3 or 360 is limited then go play Dark souls and go to the area BLIGHTTOWN. See those frames dropping to 10-15 FPS in this game that has only good visuals??? Yeah, these consoles are getting old and any dev could use more power by now. Maybe it could be bad programming, But I know that even if the consoles had only an extra 256mb more of ram and nothing else, then the blight town part in dark souls would be silky smooth instead of a slideshow(and yes I have the lead platform PS3 version and I know that the frames also drop like crazy in the 360 version in that area).
"Imagine what just U3 ported to PS4 could be like. Same game but in native 1080P 60FPS and 4x AA and already is a huge improvement." It would still be U3. So what exactly can't they do with the PS3. I didn't catch that. I mean, not scaled back, I mean, what would limit them? Of course fully dynamic lightning being one, or photo realistic landscapes, character models. But, have you seen latest game play videos? Does this look like "limited" to you? Shaders are extreme in that game (sand?), lightning is awesome (and shows not everything needs to be dynamic), the best animation system ever in any video game. I'd say, when someone else reaches that level, we can agree we reached a boundary. But so far these are excuses.
No, im pretty sure the guys at Naughty Dog are nice people, they wouldnt flip off another developer for no good reason.
Erm....360 devs might be but it dosen't mean PS3 first party developers are in need of a new console, don't get me wrong I bet they would like the PS4 to come out but I think they could survive another year two without one
Someone like Peter Molyneux is definilty limited by the 360, that's why the guy hypes things up so much only for us to get dissapointed.
Hate it when developers are stuggling so they make it seem everyone is in the same boat when their not. I wouldn't want to see it on the PS3 but if it was I bet ND could make Uncharted 4 look better then U3.....hey we thought the same about U3 when it was announced but like always ND have blown us away. Now could Epic make the next Gears of War look better then Gears 3 on the 360......I highly doubt it because the 360 would probably limit them to what they could improve.
The entire essence of console game development revolves around these strict limitations. You wouldn't believe how many tricks Naughty Dog used for Uncharted 2. For example, they had to sample their animations at 10 FPS, rather than 30 and interpolate between frames in order to fit all their animations in the PS3's RAM budget. (I only use ND as an example because I've watched a bunch of their GDC presentations)
That's not really a "trick", per se. It's standard practice for games which have more than one animated skeleton/animation set, and the 360 has the same problem. The 360 also has the additional issue of not having a zillion SPUs to assist with animation decompression, so the compression schemes have to be simpler (thus taking more RAM), or the number of characters animated each frame has to be less. Panda is totally correct that working around these issues is the "essense" of console development, however. If one factor was causing game design to be held back in favor of consoles over PCs, memory limitations would be it -- not processor power, as so many people seem to believe.
I don't know how standard sampling the animations at 10 FPS is. I know all of the engines that I've fooled around all sample at 30 FPS or higher.
Honestly it's difficult to tell the difference between an animation sampled at 15 fps and one sampled at 30 fps, unless you use a terrible compression scheme. Uncompressed animations are pretty hefty in size -- we're talking 60-80MB in the typical shooter, as an example, for 15 fps anims. Good compression usually yields a colossal 10-to-1 redux (although faster schemes yield only about 4-to-1), and animation memory budgets, for a relatively complex animated game like a shooter, tend to fall in the 8-12MB range, in the end. Reducing framerate is usually a linear gain, even after compression is factored in -- only games with relatively simple animation sets will go for that extra fidelity, at 2-3x the memory cost. Games like Rock Band, or Dance Central, are good examples of games that would stand to benefit from the extra fidelity, by burning the extra memory required, because they are very animation focused, and don't require a truckload of dynamically blended animations for a zillion different possible situations the onscreen characters could be in.
"The smart money says we're nine months away from the reveal of brand-new Xbox hardware, that major advances in visual technology are being held back by the hardware limitations of six-year-old architecture. Gears of War 3 begs to differ. Developed in parallel with the hugely popular Unreal Engine 3 technology, the game looks absolutely remarkable: put it side-by-side with the last game, or even up against Epic's own Bulletstorm, and it's clear that the current gen is still capable of some genuine surprises" http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
"You dont know what you are talking about"
Really....well I don't think you do aswell
That's odd because here in this interview there all set for next gen and are getting ready with the UE4. Mike Capps even knows too much that he can't really say anything about it. So it does show you that because of this there getting ready because they've hit a wall.
"The talk naturally switches to the next console generation. Given Capps’ involvement with ongoing editions of Unreal Engine, he’s bound to know something. Turns out he knows too much.
“The hard part about getting to work with the hardware manufacturers early is that then I can’t talk about it at all,” he says.
“‘What would you like to see?’ I can’t tell you, because I know what’s going on.”
Despite the silence, though, Capps is willing to concede that developers Epic’s engaging with on UE4, the company’s next generation engine, are pumped.
“We’ve only talked to a small number, but the ones we have are very excited because we’re doing a lot of core work that’s going to make it easier for them to scale up, especially with lots of processors,” he says.
“That’s what you see on PC; ten years ago you had one, maybe two, and now you have 16. I think we’re going in the right direction, and I expect to have a bigger marketshare, not a smaller marketshare.”
@unaffected Bulletstorm on pc utterly and completely DESTROYS gears 3 visually up and down and all around, it makes gears 3 look 4 years old, I own them both and played them both on the same exact 1080p Samsung 55", and side by side you would think Gears 3 was covered in vasaline after playing bulletstorm maxed out on pc in 1080p with 16x anti aliasing at a buttery 60 frames, there is nothing on consoles that has been made or ever will be made this gen that looks even close to bulletstrom on pc/// Same goes for; Rage PC BFBC2 pc Dirt 2 pc Shogun 2 pc Crysis 1 pc Crysis 2 pc Stalker CoP pc ....basically any AAA PC game from the last 4 years makes anything on console look last gen.
@WhiteLightning lol the difference between ps3 and 360 isn't much at all so stop trying to make it look like ps3 is a generation ahead of 360 crysis 1 on both consoles looks amazing and features fully destructible massive environments and is still the best looking game on consoles. devs are limited by consoles even a 2006 high spec pc is several times more powerful than ps3/360 what does that tell you ? uncharted 3 doesn't even look much better than uncharted 2 so what are you talking about ? the ps3 is not an omnipotent machine and if epic made gears 4 on 360 it could look better than 3 considering crysis 1 on consoles ouscales it, has fully destructible environments and still manages to edge out anything else in visual quality on consoles today. so the ps3 doesn't limit developers ? lol the hardware isn't improving like pc always does so yes the ps3 is limiting devs just like all other consoles infact ps3 and 360 has been limiting devs since they launched even a 2005 dual gpu high spec pc is more powerful than either of them RAGE is another very good looking game that runs 60fps yes it sacrifices a lot to get it but its still one of the best looking games on consoles and its all creativity but with consoles creativity can only take you so far. you think the ps3 can match crysis 1 pc running at medium with a little AA,AF @1080p ? no and it never will(same goes for 360) so please stop talking as if the ps3 is a powerful machine because even modern warfare 2 on pc looks better than your "amazing" looking killzone 3 and it can run maxed out on a low end pc LOL I'm sure you're one of those that think ps3 can match battlefied 3 pc maxed out when in actual fact the pc version running minimum settings will be better looking than anything on consoles just the same way crysis 2 pc running gamer(lowest settings possible) looks better than anything on consoles INCLUDING uncharted 3 :/ i feel sorry for you console fanboys your hardware has been outdated for the past 6 years now. do you know when 512md ram went out of fashion ? in 2004!!!lol @the disagrees you ps3 and 360 fanboys troll each other all the time so why is it wrong for me to troll you and your pathetic consoles ? the hypocrisy on this site is astounding lol
All I got from that was
"Blah Blah Blah 360 fanboy crap...Blah Blah Blah"
@402: Sorry I got up to "uncharted 3 doesn't even look much better than uncharted 2" and just assumed he was a 360 fanboy since that what most of them say
@WhiteLightning lol you didn't read his post. just his regular pc elitist B.S how could you not know qwertz doesn't he always troll console articles talking about how superior pc is ?
everytime i come on this site i see trolling (i'd prefer the word stupid) comments from qwertyz. ALWAYS.
Sorry, but if you've watched the Desert Village gameplay demo and can't notice the truly significant boost Uncharted 3 has in terms of visual fidelity and quality of animations that adds to the overall graphical impression, then I'd advise booking an eye-check appointment. http://www.youtube.com/watc... I was unconvinced until I watched that section! Naughty Dog are technical wizards - don't underestimate.
is it me or do PC elitist just care about graphics & dont give a shit about gameplay?