With games requiring so much local storage for installs we wonder what this will mean for next-gen consoles.
500GB HDD minimum next gen... I don't think "alarm bells" are ringing, it's just going to be sensible to have that much space because HDDs are so cheap.
Patches, Firmware updates, Game installs, 500GB HDD's what are we talking about here.....PC's or consoles? Oh yeah consoles, sorry some times i get confused as one becomes more like the other!!! LOL 22GB install WOW that's a lot. if you got a 4GB model your disc is gonna be spinning it's little head off and those load times...OMG, how long are they? Hell how long to install 22GB of data unto a 360? anybody know. Next Gen 1GB HDD minimum and Bios updates along with GPU upgrade half through life cycle. LOL
Once you install the 22GB the Xbox 360 will perform better than the PS3 on load times because the entire game can be loaded from HD. Without the install and instant gratification, the DVD drive is still in some instances faster than Blu-Ray so if the game is optimized for the disc (which undoubtedly it is), it will still do excellent with some noise. "Next Gen 1GB HDD minimum and Bios updates along with GPU upgrade half through life cycle. LOL" Oh, I'm assuming you meant 1 TB.... not 1 GB. TB != GB
Well unfortunatly i spent hour what seemd forever hoping to see some rage footage from quakecon. only to listen to the guy himself tell me how hard it was to make this game. but i did learn few things from him while trying to keep my eyes and head off the keyboard. He doesnt seem to enjoy working with the ps3. he didnt say anything possitive when come to pc eaither witch stranage but had alot good stuff to say about the 360. In a nutshell it was because MS have sent devs tools to utilise on there games for there console only. many devs brush theses kits shall we say to one side. but this guy didnt he found it helped alot dureing this game. something to do with memory cache pixels k'bytes I was impressed at the knowledge he was given the people there but i did feel like im sure most of the audiance there did feel like it was more a lesson. but to take away that the game i was planning to get on the ps3 could possibly be the worst out of them all. and even the pc having some issues too wasnt what i expected to hear. 22GB is alot of install but pc users like myself will also be faced with something simuular too and ps3 users. unless they gonna read it from the blu-ray.
Edit 1gb Ooops I meant 1TB (TeraByte) 22GB for a PC Gamer isn't bad. I think my GTAIV file is like 25GB but it's heavily modded out! Running it from my SSD and it runs lightning quick so rage would be no big deal.
Personally I hope that next gen releases when solid state is more viable. Texture pop in begone!
Out of all the versions of Rage, I wonder which one will you actually be able to just pop the game in and play, without installs and patches? Take the wrapper off the box, put the disc in and play.
@gamingdroid: Carmack said that the worst case scenario for playing Rage would be on the 360 off the DVD, no install. Even though BD read speeds are slower, the information's less compressed as on DVDs. If you want to screw with the game, he said the worst thing you can do is walk backwards for a while into a dense area (city) then do a quick 180 with a very high sensitivity setting! I believe he said Id was in talks with Sony to try and get their permission for more install space on the PS3 (don't ask me why that's up to Sony...). But all-in-all he made it sound like they did everything possible, and then some, to make the game run as smoothly as possible on the consoles. To be perfectly honest, in my opinion, Carmack's a little too open when he gives keynotes! I understood that he went above and beyond what any other dev would ever think of to make Rage run as smoothly as possible, but he still didn't make it sound so great. I'm really looking forward to the game, and I'm almost sure I'll get it, but I'm expecting a few graphical glitches here and there.
@ATi_Elite Its funny but last gen when console gamers were asked why they dont like playing on the PC. They replied "oh we dont like the long install times, Driver updates(firmware updates), Patches" Now they have to go through the same stuff on the current consoles. Wake up people the only real console this gen is the Wii. PS3 and Xbox 360 are locked down PCs very low end pcs at best. Where you need to pay royalty to MS and Sony per game and then need to put up with all the limitations of old hardware.
will take about 30 mins to install 22gig (based on the time it takes to install a full single disc game). I'm guessing bluray is much slower read speed as it took me 1 hour and 20 mins to install 11 gigs for GT5.
@Blaine ***Carmack said that the worst case scenario for playing Rage would be on the 360 off the DVD, no install. Even though BD read speeds are slower, the information's less compressed as on DVDs.*** I have to watch that part, but how is Blu-Ray information "less compressed" than Blu-Ray? The assets are identical across all 3 platforms including PC. Besides, the bottleneck in the entire operation isn't CPU, it is IO i.e. data reading. But you are right, depending on the game requirement and how the disc is optimized, it could swing either way in terms of performance. Either way, I think it still be excellent with an option for better performance. PC will of course have the best, if you got the dough for SSD. I got a 64GB SSD and it makes my 3-year laptop with Windows Vista fly. ***I believe he said Id was in talks with Sony to try and get their permission for more install space on the PS3 (don't ask me why that's up to Sony...).*** It's most likely because Sony sold the PS3 with 20GB hard drives at one point, and they don't want a situation where those users can't play the games or allow space for any other games because the hard drive is too small. That is a good thing! ***I understood that he went above and beyond what any other dev would ever think of to make Rage run as smoothly as possible, but he still didn't make it sound so great. I'm really looking forward to the game...*** I'm really looking forward to the game myself, but most likely won't get it day one. Too many games, too little time and it isn't prudent of me to be spending $60/each on multiple games. I think Gears 3 in September and MW3 in November will hold me over til the next year. I just picked up Gears triple pack for $15 and Borderlands GOTY for $10. @reynod ***They replied "oh we dont like the long install times, Driver updates(firmware updates), Patches"*** The updates doesn't take that long. On Xbox 360 it is all, but a minute once usually for me. On PC, I might have to d!ck around with settings to find the optimal setup on my subpar computer and deal with incompatibilities. PC might have it's advantages, but it also has disadvantages. That said, I might go back to PC since the difference in graphical power is now so apparent and superior even at the relatively cheap around the low $100+ range. It's an open platform, so games are cheaper and there are far more options with it. @Perjoss ***will take about 30 mins to install 22gig (based on the time it takes to install a full single disc game). I'm guessing bluray is much slower read speed as it took me 1 hour and 20 mins to install 11 gigs for GT5.*** That's insane over an hour! I didn't know there was such a stark difference in install time.
@reynod None of that really matters though since games like Valkyria Cronicles are only on PS3. It's all about the games and Sony has a bunch of those. Also I think most people bitched about having to upgrade their PCs all the time. Upgrading HW is expensive and if a gen lasts about 7-10 years on consoles you save a big bunch of money not having to upgrade.
@Droid: I don't know how that compression stuff works! All I know is the game's 22gbs on PS3 and that 2 DVDs =/= 22gbs. Also, Carmack mentioned some special DVD compression tools MS let them use for Rage. He also said he would have liked to use the full dual-layered BD, but that it would have been a hugely different development process and that it would take too long, too much resources, and basically too many headaches to make it happen now. Oh well...
We might get to 500GB HD this generation. The new Gears of War Xbox 360 and the Star Wars one has 320GB already. The next step up is 500GB, but I hardly see it as a necessity. The majority of users probably use far less than 250GB, let alone 320GB and soon 500GB. First we need content that is cheap enough for me to buy enough, to even spend the money on extra space on the hard drive. Next generation when Sony/MS starts, we might hit a TB pretty quickly though. The Wii-U though is questionable about their strategy and it doesn't make sense to me....
I've had 500gb in both my ps3 since 3-4 years ago.
Whats confusing about the Wii U strategy? You'll be able to use external hard drives and HD SD cards. Keeps the price down and the size of the unit will be smaller.
***Whats confusing about the Wii U strategy? You'll be able to use external hard drives and HD SD cards*** That's hardly enough space and external drive is bottle necked when it comes to data transfer speed (USB2?). In this day and age, it seems a hard drive should just be standard when the average hard drive on a store bought computer is fast approaching (if it already isn't) 1 TB. @nycredude I'm talking about it coming from the store. It's nice you can upgrade your hard drive, but my PS3 still has the original 40GB in it. I feel I can't violate my MGS4 Limited Edition PS3 by opening it... I might have to get over it soon, because most games on the PS3 require an install and I don't have the space.
with 1TB we should be fine next gen
if you are someone who needs every game you own installed at one time then sure. other than that as a PC gamer i dont think ive ever had more than 200GB of games installed at one time. management does wonders.
I used to be the same way, but Steam sales motivated me to upgrade to a 1.5TB :)
Faster blue ray drives - and possibly optimized for streaming is worth more than huge harddrives. Rage could run fine off the BD - and a better cash system. Possibly a faster BD drive and a very fast, but smaller (100-200GB) solid state would be the best solution. Solid state could also be cost efficiently integrated into the main board. I hope we are getting away from HDDs again. It is pointless installing GBs of data. We are going the way of a PC. Years ago disk media were slow - and they are. We need some instant media which can deliver instant games without install. A non-volatile media will still be needed for downloaded data and updated, etc.
SSDs will be simply too expensive, Bluray drive will never catch up with the speed of HDDs (which you already think are slow). currently even 100-200GB SSDs dont cost less then 150usd, thats about half the price of a console. Please speak some sense. There is a reason why we have installs, having everything streaming for a bluray or DVD is just too slow.
I doubt that. A mechanical part will be more expensive than pure silicon (at some point). SSD tech will improve. Latest gens blow HDD away performance wise. In addition, in a console, this can be implemented as a large non volatile memory rather than a "drive". Blue-Ray streaming does just fine. See KZ3, UC games, inFamous, etc. Pretty much all latest Sony games do not install, have no pop ins, and beat other (third party) games which use installs. It needs some clever algorithm. Not everything is solved with brute force methods. We are talking consoles (an embedded system) not PCs where you can have the freedom to implement something for exactly one purpose - that is gaming, primarily. I'd expect a platform holder to work with that advantage. If I'd want a PC, I'd just get one. And, BTW, just add a eSATA connector so everybody can hook up a huge external HDD - where all the DLC goes and for the people who want it. Lowers entry costs and gives people options.
as a die hard playstation fan and as much as i love ps3's bluray capacity why is changing a disk every 6-8 hrs a big deal? now nothing can be done until next gen so let it go just install the games and have fun. I feel like we as gamers make big issues out of something so small as getting off for 10seconds and changing a disk. Nintendo is developing their own disks i read so they are not gonna use bluray no one wants to compete with sony with their console plus pay them bluray fees. PirateThom: we have already seen 320gb ps3 i say for next gen a 720-1tb is more likely. Hard drives are not as expensive as they use to be and by the time next gen comes around they will be even cheaper ATi_Elite: it don't take that long to install actually plus when installed the system is super quite i hope sony releases a patch to let us install games so the game doesn't have to consistently spin. ME2 was i think 16gb so 22 gb isn't that much out of the way for 3disks. other than that its not a deal breaker have fun enjoy
Its not that its a big deal. Its limiting. Dvd9 is holding back multiplatform games. Publishers don't want to sell games on 10-15 dvds so they compromise. Its like putting low grade fuel in a ferrari. The full potential of the blu ray is not being realized or met bc publishers have to consider the limited storage on the dvd9's. La noir is a perfect example. Sure blu ray has latency issues, but the storage capability far outweighs that negative. The tech in the 360 is gettng old as hell and its holding developers back, just ask john cermack from id software.
We can look at this at both a business and practical side. Both DVD and Blu-ray are markets that have been introduced by SONY in the console war in the first place. The whole point of the DVD back then was to eliminate the problems John Carmack faces today; business-wise, the royalties for succeeding discs which would be a burden to their already high-budgeted funds for their game. Practical-wise, open world games like RPG's can suffer because the quests on that disc that can be relevant to the 2nd or 3rd disc cannot be streamlined together because the information cannot be read across multi-discs at the same time. Developers have to force the story (like Mass Effect 2) to have every possible quest to start with and then tie up the "loose-ends" on the final disc. A higher-capacity disc would've made it easier to work the quests irrespective to where/when you are because there's no redundancy for data to deal with. "I feel like we as gamers make big issues out of something so small as getting off for 10 seconds and changing a disk." It's definitely one for the taking that making jokes about old tech has existed since the beginning of time. But as I have explained earlier, there's more to media storage on consoles than moving out of your couch and switching it. Reducing a problem to a perspective of "convenience" is extremely short-sighted. Examples of which would never pave the way for re-chargeable batteries. You wouldn't want your phone to run on disposable ones despite how "easy" it is to change to new batteries in the first place - amirite? ;) - End statement
@ frelyler i fail to see how dvd9 is holding back gaming, games that are sold on dvd9 still manage to regularly get 10/10 scores. Hint: it's not all about uncompressed audio and super high res textures.
pfft. As of right now you can get a terabyte for under $50. Hardly going to be an issue for the next gen having 20gig installs. http://www.newegg.com/Produ...
yea i think PirateThom is right around 500gb min. and this is no alarm at all. less then 10% of games are installed to drive so i do not think it is a major issue for most. the price of hdd is getting lowered so people can get it cheaper plus who knows if rage releases a edition with a hdd. the starwars and gears of war have 350gbs so i would think the next system has to have more as they are built for a longer time.
I have 500gb now, plus if the bluRay can be updated to 500gb, that's 1 terabyte to mess around in. alarm bells for the 360, but there's no real concern for PS3 owners.
It has become the myth of alot of PS3 owners that the PS3 will eventually be able to use the higher capicity 3 and 4 layer BDXL format. The higher capacity discs require a more powerful laser that the PS3 does not have. http://www.bit-tech.net/har...
That is all cute and all, but this is clearly talking about alarm bells for 72o and ps4. If this was 2005 your comment would be on topic.
@LoydX-mas Actually higher capacity Blu-ray discs are possible for PS3 and current BD players with firmware updates. Hitachi even had a working proto-type for a quad layer 100gb disc compatible with PS3 back in 07 and Sony already know a way to increase data per layer to 33gb. With Blue/Violet lasers PS4 could possibly release a console with 1TB duel layer discs. http://www.psu.com/forums/a... http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... I would add that whilst Blu-ray discs read speeds are lower they are not directly comparable to DVD read speeds i.e. 1x to 1x as Blu-ray discs are reading more data per pass at a constant rate (CLV) as opposed to DVD's variable read rate (CAV). The above is more of an issue now as whilst DVD discs can be mastered to push data to the (faster) outer edges of the disc with games getting bigger and bigger there is less room to do so. See comparison below and note DVD data read amounts show minimum (inner half of disk) / maximum (outer half of disc) data amounts. Blu-ray 1x: 36Mbps / 4.5MBps 12x DVD: 66-132Mbps / 8.2-16.5MBps Blu-ray 2x: 72Mbp / 8MBps 12x DVD: 66-132Mbps / 8.2-16.5MBps Blu-ray 3x: 108Mbps / 13.5MBps 12x DVD: 66-132Mbps / 8.2-16.5MBps Blu-ray 4x: 144MBps / 18MBps 12x DVD: 66-132Mbps / 8.2-16.5MBps Mb = megabits MB = megabytes Finally, back on topic, I would agree 500GB 'MINIMUM' HDD's next gen with options up to 1.5TB plus cloud gaming being pushed but in a limited fashion. I hope that Sony doesn't go proprietary HDD and leaves the option for us to upgrade, however Piracy may see them do otherwise. Currently I have fatty with a 500GB internal and a 2TB external for movies, music, pictures and am looking to upgrade internal drive so thoughts / experiences on drives appreciated?
@LNDCalling When an actual 33gb single layer or 66gb dual layer disc comes out and is used in games or movie applications, then I will take back my statement. Besides, in my opinion, the cost of a 200+gb Blu-ray disc will prohibit its use when flash technology price and performance is advancing so much faster.
@LoydX-mas I was only stating that higher capicity discs of even 3+ layers are possible on PS3 in answer to your statement that they aren't: "The higher capacity discs require a more powerful laser that the PS3 does not have" Whether they are required 'yet' is another thing of course, especially with current game sizes and with existing 50GB duel layer discs being utilised. I will concede that the latency on i-MLSE discs may increase lowering data trasfer rates which whilst ok for movies may effect data streaming from disc in gaming if not cached to HDD first.
@ LNDCalling: Yeah, basically what you said, but I get a little tired spinning the same wheels; if they don't know it by now, they never will; and once it penetrates, they usually go into denial mode, so I just cut to the chase in lieu of verbosity.
How about some alarm bells for the WiiU? I've got a feeling the next Xbox and PS4 will both have ample hard drives. However, the WiiU will not even have a HDD at all and is opting for a much smaller flash drive plus memory cards. I don't think that's going to cut it for a next gen system.
lol WiiU and next gen should not be put in the same sentence....
This was already posted.
not exactly, he just moved some words around and basically came up with something even more clever or so he thought... smh
who cares? we will talk about it when they get here... this is a stupid post if you ask me... hahaha If I take a sh*t while im playing a game, will I be able to see my tv in the mirror...
the alarm bell is for the 360. 250gb limit with uber price ps3 has no limit... oh well, it has 1,5TB...
uber price? I bought my 250 gig hardrive for 60 bucks, and I've never ever been short on storage, and I install all of my games... Please, don't try and make this a fanboy war...
STFU http://www.gamespot.com/new... originally it was 180$, and it was a scam, and if you paid 60$ IT'S STILL A SCAM, because with 60$ i can buy a 750GB HDD.
If we're going to analyze prices of each console, lets talk about the fact that the xbox 360 is 100 dollars cheaper than the ps3... But seriously, can we leave the fanboy talk out of this...
The alarm bells are definately NOT for the 360 here fanbot. Did you even listen to Carmack's speech? Over and over he was talking about how you could do this on 360 and not on ps3, how 360 had this texture ability and ps3 didn't, how you could use 360 RAM for this but you couldn't on ps3 because it was split, how you had a RAM shortage on ps3, and how the worst texture loading problems were on blu ray, and how they were having to try and get Sony to let them use more hard drive space for installs (hello MANDATORY install). Did you even hear all that or did your ps3 brainwashing kick in and shut your ears down? Bells were tolling for ps3. 360 can run this just fine and Carmack has always said he preferred 360 over ps3. Now we know why.
got my 250 gb harddrive for my pro for only $55. I installed over 15 (5 with 3 discs) to it and add demos and music.. i still have 45gb left.
Funny I have a 360 slim and itstill has 200gb free space. There are also 320gb HD for it coming soon.
Damn! I have a 320GB fatty PS3 with 50GB left
My 320 is full...PS+ Game Trial's fault...
I guess it's a slow news day on N4G? Why is an install size important on PS3 and 360? It's like someone mentions HDD space and it's turns into WW3 on the forums.
alarms bells??? rage is not the 1st game.. didnt metal gear take more gig space years ago? i dont think space is an issue, thats an easy fix.. i would like to see more ram and memory or are those the same? all i know is devs want more memory, so that should be sounding the bells..
Most of it was cut scenes and other coding. I'm pretty sure if it's not extra content on disk, let's say like trailers, demos etc etc, then it's shouldn't be that big of an installation. Probably some junk code in there.
MGS4 didn't install the full amount on the HDD... in fact, it had shorter, reinstalls, between chapters... unless you're talking about disc space, then it was bigger... but this is talking about installing the 360 version to the HDD, all the discs have to be installed at once.
oh... but either way i dont think that space is going to be an issue next gen.. if we even get there considering whats going on right now with the market..
PS3 vs XBOX 360 Round 2.....FIGHT!!!!! LOL
As the writer of the article I feel my title needs a little explanation. I agree that this is not the first time a game requires such a large install - however it seem to me that things like this are becoming more common. With so much talk of next-gen consoles of late we thought that the two subjects needed addressing. Therefore we set up a poll to see what our readers thought about the next-gen consoles and local storage. Some people think that capacity doesn't matter and performance does... in that case SSD has to be the way forward - but even a 256GB SSD will have a serious impact on a console's RRP. Will Microsoft and Sony give consoles a cheap SATA HDD for plenty of storage rather than risk scaring people off with a high RRP due to a mid-capacity SSD? BTW - Agent-86 I 100% agree with your WiiU concerns... Feel free to fire more questions back at me!
At least it isn't a "forced" install. Not sure if anyone ever played MGS4 on PS3, but I'd take swapping a disk any day of the week over a freaking 5 minute install for every single chapter of Metal Gear 4! If I had to watch Snake smoke and put that butt out one more time I think I'd have screamed! I have a new Xbox 360s with 250 HDD, I've still got around 190 left on it, so this is not "screaming" anything to me. It is telling me that with games getting larger it's not likely to be digital download only, imagine trying to download a 20+ gig game? Sheesh....even if you got it release date you'd be waiting a couple of days to play it! Installs are OPTIONAL on Xbox 360, I wouldn't install it, new 360s models are quiet even with a disk not installed. Only games I bother to install are online ones that I play often ie Call Of Duty, Halo, Gears ect...
Troll Troll Troll Troll Troll Troll Troll Troll Troll Troll Troll.
Listen! If he like to change disks and not install his games. Then let him be so don't call him a troll just because his is telling his own opinion on how he plays his games.
no a troll would say...lol you haz 2 force install games lolz 360 fur teh win!
Well...the good news off this for any 360 owner who is installing, based off this being an all or nothing install, I am assuming you will not need to swap out the disc like you did in L.A. Noire. Should just run all the way through off the first disc in the drive.
22GB WTF 22GB for crap !!!!
Next: Lack of color options! We need new consoles!! PC people seem to be looking for every reason to bash consoles now.
take it from me a PC Elitist.... Bash consoles....for what! I mean what is there to bash?
All this speculation is driving me nuts,its so far off as to not really matter yet.
For you Xbox gamers who have the fat360s with a large hard drive of a sufficient size and plan to up upgrade to a slim60. Just buy the 4gb system and take your fat60 harddrive apart and you can literally install it I to your slim60. You will need pliers to install and remove it, but it works perfectly well. If you already have a 4gb, then buy a used harddrive and install it vs, paying the extra cost for a slim 60 hard drive. It is just one of your options to get around insufficient space and low budget. The slim60 already has the transfer software available built in, you will need a transfer cable which you can get cheap on eBay. http://www.youtube.com/watc...
Not a viable option for me, I need the extra amps on the 12v supply line to give my 10k rpm hdd power. Yes my phat 360 has a 10,000 rpm hard drive, it loads......fast as shit.
1TB, or maybe 500gb solid state. They must suck up their pride and use Blu-ray or perhaps there's something in the pipes with equal/more storage.