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'Used Game Sales Are Only Hurting Us.' Says Insomniac Developer

TGH Writes: "We recently got a chance to sit with a member of the Insomniac crew and talk about their upcoming Resistance 3 title. When we asked Drew Murray, Lead Designer of Resistance 3 what he thought about Resistance 3 being the first major title to utilize the Playstation Pass we were somewhat surprised with his passionate response."

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FanOfGaming2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

very..

edit: here's my thing, I don't think developers like Insomniac shouldn't even speak on the matter and let publishers like Sony speak in this regard because no-matter what they say there will be backlash, positive or negative. Obviously, developers don't make as much money when games are being shuffled in the second hand market such as used and rented games.

ShadyDevil2216d ago

Well you guys are a barrel full of talk. I think that it is actually interesting that the developers take this sort of stance on a controversial issue. I for one am behind the passes as long as they dont include content that should be on the disc (new maps or such) If its just for the online let it go, thats why people buy these sorts of games.

gamingdroid2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

Really?

"From a developer standpoint rental and used game sales are only hurting us."

All other industries have this issue. Books, movies, music and even regular software suffer from used sale. None of them seek to get a payment from the second sale. They all *supposedly* hurt the industry.

Fact is that, this hurts consumers even more, so who speaks for us?

Why should video game developers enjoy some kind of special treatment?

I see plenty of developers succeeding just fine without this pass.

You are all free to vote with your wallet as it is a free market and some good may come out of it, who knows. That said, educate yourself on the issue and don't blindly listen to these developers and especially publishers.

MidnytRain2216d ago

"None of them seek to get a payment from the second sale."

Well, I think the gaming industry's a lot more fragile. Many decent studios get closed down left and right when they don't perform. Books, music, they sell years and years beyond release. Most games get forgotten quicky when you compare them.

nightmarex1212216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

The problem is all them of have some kind of additional revenue for like music and movies they have theaters and concert to make up the loss of used sales. So they aren't like super worry compare to the game industry, and the game industry is the only one of medium that actually crash.

KingSlayer2216d ago

@gamingdroid
When was the last time a movie studio, book publisher or record label shuttered its doors in comparison to what we see with the games industry EVERY SINGLE YEAR? It's almost ridiculous to NOT think used sales/rentals are hurting.

Ducky2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

"Books, movies, music and even regular software suffer from used sale."

Books are a bit more cheaper to make aren't they?

Music industry usually makes money from tours, although the digital market has caught on as well.

Movie industry makes a large sum from theatres.

Right now, both the consumer and the publishher/devs are suffering. The only one winning are the 2nd-hand retailers. I'm guessing the ideal solution is if the retailers themselves decrease the price of used-games to offset the online-pass charge (they already give you less for trading-in a game with a pass, don't they?).

ShadyDevil2216d ago

@Oldman I think they just take the pass out. Because thats how Gamestop rolls.

gamingdroid2216d ago

@MidnytRain:

***Well, I think the gaming industry's a lot more fragile. Many decent studios get closed down left and right when they don't perform.***

That is what they want you to believe. When was the last time you heard a publisher shut their doors?

***Books, music, they sell years and years beyond release. Most games get forgotten quicky when you compare them.***

Really? Mario is still around, so is Sonic. Many sequels are being brought back, and how many HD remakes do we have? Heck, even just a port to current consoles are made a plenty.

@KingSlayer:

***When was the last time a movie studio, book publisher or record label shuttered its doors in comparison to what we see with the games industry EVERY SINGLE YEAR? It's almost ridiculous to NOT think used sales/rentals are hurting.***

Small business close their doors all the time, should we give them special favors as well? If they are shutting down, it likely is because they didn't meet their target. Shutting down something under performing is efficiency.

Having a business isn't hurting the industry, no more than a third party manufacturer creates third party parts for a car.

@FatOldMan

***Books are a bit more cheaper to make aren't they?***

So are lollipops! What's your point? Plenty of writers fail all the time.

***Music industry usually makes money from tours, although the digital market has caught on as well.

Movie industry makes a large sum from theatres.***

...and games make money from movie deals, comic books, merchandises, DLC and so on. Developers and publishers are now bigger in size than ever and bring in more money than ever before. The industry is the largest it has ever been.

Also, theaters aren't making any money from their showing the movies and practically dying right now.

***Right now, both the consumer and the publishher/devs are suffering. The only one winning are the 2nd-hand retailers. I'm guessing the ideal solution is if the retailers themselves decrease the price of used-games to offset the online-pass charge (they already give you less for trading-in a game with a pass, don't they?).***

The issue isn't that they are reducing the price the used game, that is the free market at work. Despite that, used game sellers will only pass that loss to the consumer trading those games in.

The issue is that it seems the vast majority see this as some kind of way to save the industry despite the fact that it really is just a money grab and a reducing your freedom to how you use/share your game.

Now if you think it is fine, but it is nonsense that the developers are suffering. If anything, there are far too many of them and the vast majority don't make a great product.

kneon2216d ago

@gamingdroid

There is a significant difference between video games and all those industries you mention.

If I buy a used book or movie then they may have lost a sale but it doesn't actually cost them more money. When I buy a used game and play online it costs the developer, but they didn't get anything more when it was sold the second time around.

It costs money to run the servers, the more people play online the more it costs them. Most people will buy a game, play online for a few months and move on to something else. The used market stretches that time period out so that the average time online per game sold is longer than it should be. Someone has to pay for the extra server resources, its either going to be the original buyer through a higher initial price or the secondary buyer through some sort of pass.

I've never sold a game and have never bought a used game so I know which I prefer.

MidnytRain2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

"Really? Mario is still around, so is Sonic. Many sequels are being brought back, and how many HD remakes do we have? Heck, even just a port to current consoles are made a plenty."

Only because they're constantly remade. Those are examples of super popular titles. Others, like Heavy Rain, it probably doesn't sell much anymore. Books and music have enormous crowds, much bigger than gaming, so they aren't as badly affected.

mantisimo2216d ago

@gaming droid

Devs close down/are bought out all the time some having very good products eg Free Radical etc.

It costs an awful lot to run a development company whereas a succesful book is often writen by 1 person and edited by 2 or 3.

Movies have many more people involved but if it's a success has very good residual sales and tie ins. (heck maybe even a cruddy game tie in)

The development cycle for a modern major game is around 2 years with 50-60 team members involved.

A Movie may take as long have more people involved but sells to many more people. (as well as the residuals)

So no other medium really compares. Buy 2nd hand if you like just don't start whining when you have no new games to play because your favourite devs have died a long and slow corporeal death.

jke822216d ago

@ kneon

but if someone buys that used game, someone else had to sell it, so the dev still has same number of people on the server they had before they dont have to pay extra if that game is out in someone elses hands

The game pass is just another excuse/way to rake in extra money its not to deter pirates its not for any reason other than to dick the consumer.

second hand games dont hurt the games industry anymore than used car sales hurt the new car industry everyone is getting paid for it why dick with it and make it harder for someone to get the full enjoyment outta your game.....

KingSlayer2216d ago

@gamingdroid
I'm not talking about small businesses. I'm talking about studios compared to the industries you brought up. Pandemic, Ensemble, Black Rock, Bizarre Creations, Midway and on and on...then the layoffs at Microsoft Studios, Sony, EA, Activision in addition to the studio closures. Movies don't meet targets, yet continue to get sequels. Case in point, the Saw series. Each one of those films made LESS than the previous one, yet they keep cranking them out. Twisted Pictures ain't closing. Why? They have more avenues to recoup any losses or under-performing than game studios have. It's unrealistic to think "Oh well, used sales of your product that you don't see any money from isn't hurting you".

baker_boi2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

Do yall dummies understand developers aren't supposed to make more money off ONE sold copy of the game? That money has already been made.

When a store buys a SHIPMENT of more than 100 or more(prolly a lot more, just an example) copies of a game they making money off of that! From the purchase by the store, NOT YOUR MONEY.

They DO NOT SUPPOSED TO GET TWO SALES OFF OF ONE SOLD COPY. Once I buy that copy it is mine to do what I please with it.

Developers make their money from the publishers. Publishers sell the games to the store and make the money from that. Yall need to understand this. This is getting ridiculous. it's a billion dollar+ industry, it's not suffering and it's not hurting.

The music industry is basically a pirate's home right now. They shouldn't be making ANY money at all, but they still pull in over 700 million every year.

Do you really think making someone by the game new or not buy it all helps them get more sells on the game?

How bad is the fashion industry hurting from Second-hand store sales?

I don't recall any of these bastards clamoring for every dime from the used/renting games market back in 2009.

These fucks are just greedy. And every time these companies do this and you sheep ass bastards support it gets 10 times worse.

Next time somebody homeless goes to buy clothes out of the thrift store, just tackle his ass and yell in his face! You tell em', "these designers have to eat too! You're hurting the industry by buying used!"

Cot damn, these kids these days.

kneon2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

@jke82

Yes of course the original owner is no longer playing online. But when developers size the servers they have to make certain assumptions about usage patterns. If no one ever sold their games and followed normal usage patterns then they could use less resources than when many people sell their games and bring new players online.

This is a cost that has to be covered somewhere, it's not free. We will all pay for it somehow, or the devs have to cut back in other areas, such as game development and testing.

Everyone should want developers to make a profit. If they don't then they are going to play it safe with the next game (more COD clones), or cut corners (shorter games) or eventually just go out of business.

@baker_boi

Yes the game is yours to do with as you wish, but the online servers are theirs to do with as they wish. As long as such passes are for online play only I have no problem with it, if they require these passes even for offline play then that us unfair.

MrBeatdown2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

@gamingdroid

"Really?

All other industries have this issue. Books, movies, music and even regular software suffer from used sale. None of them seek to get a payment from the second sale. They all *supposedly* hurt the industry.

Fact is that, this hurts consumers even more, so who speaks for us?

Why should video game developers enjoy some kind of special treatment?

I see plenty of developers succeeding just fine without this pass.

You are all free to vote with your wallet as it is a free market and some good may come out of it, who knows. That said, educate yourself on the issue and don't blindly listen to these developers and especially publishers."

----------------------

First of all, books, music and movies can't do much about it. There is no way something like an online pass could work for those forms of media. Video games are in a unique position, because to play online, you need an online connection, which can be used redeem an online pass. Creators of other forms of media might not seek a solution, probably because there really is no solution, outside of expanding to digital download options, like games are also doing. It does no good for the creators to harp on a problem they can't do anything about. Game developers can do something.

Secondly, books, movies, and music, don't require the use of servers maintained and paid for by the creators.

Third, it's "special treatment" because video games are a special case. Video games are different from games, movies and books, and so they should not be "treated" the same. It makes no sense for developers to ignore the benefits that are unique to the medium.

And lastly, you say that it's a fact that this hurts consumers more. Does it, really? How do you know that? How can you say that used games aren't cutting substantially into sales of new copies? GameStop seems to be making a killing thanks to used sales. So many people like to chalk it up to developer greed, but as an arcade racing fan, I've seen great devs like Black Rock and Bizarre Creations go out of business since the genre wasn't worth while when it comes to profitability. What if an online pass made the difference? I'll get no sequel to either of those games, despite both being fantastic. So who's really hurting? Sure, something like Battlefield might not have that problem, but on the other hand, well... (in the voice of Andrew Ryan) is a dev not entitled to the sweat of its brow?

+ Show (13) more repliesLast reply 2216d ago
mastiffchild2216d ago

Talk about being biased you guys! HGow is the music and how is the film industry any more stable than the games industry? Piracy closes a shed.load of independent labels! When someone pirats my stuff I lose the cash but if it's a CD being resold I alreayd got some for it and should make a better damn record if I want people to keep it.

also, allowing the poor(often students who will become BIG buyers tomorrow or young people who will go on to have more income AND families to get into gaming)to buy used AND still ply on line builds your fanbase for the NEXT game and the best ad for your on line? That's right, it's a great, busy server full of people and cutting off people who can't buy new(and therefore can't be expected to have enough for a used game PLUS a pass either) is short sighted and will mean a dead community sooner and they'll damn well deserve it.

bloody industry cries ALL the time. If they weren't SO greedy maybe gamers would turn on the pirates? Making people have to stop buying used will just mean fewer core gamers in the future and watch how much they'll milk us then.

cliffbo2215d ago

@mastiffchild

i agree totally the game industry makes more money than the movie industry and the game devs work for the publishers who are doing just fine.

also if these poor devs are in such money problems then perhaps they should cut back on the ferrari`s and multi million dollar homes.

trainsinrdr2216d ago

Im gonna buy resistance 3 used just to be evil muahahahaha.
Fuel me with your disagree's!

FAGOL2216d ago

I'm going to buy it new just to restore balance to the world haha

lol

Coffin872215d ago

I'm gonna rent it.

Where's your God now?!

gamingdroid2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

Maybe we should apply that to everything uh? books, movies, music... heck everything tangible! great idea! /s

When you bought it, you own it. All other nonsense is just to take away your freedom of how to use and dispose of the product you bought.

zgoldenlionz2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

how hard is it to understand that games with online components take money to maintain? the pass is for online and youre acting like you cant play the game without it.

if a game developer/publisher wants to include an online option and your not willing to give your money to the people that made the game why should they let you play something you didnt contribute to?

thinking youre entitled to something thats costs money to keep going i.e. multiplay and not supporting the people that keep the online going with servers, leaderboards, and patches is foolish. grow up you sound like a child.

gamingdroid2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

I did support them by buying the game, but you are free to buy their propaganda.

They aren't offering you something you already had, they are offering to remove it, then restrict it and give it back to you billed as saving the industry.

... but you are entitled to your opinion.

Nexgensensation2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

then I have no problem with that. but i'm no multi million dollar company that branches all over the world. If i were gamestop, giving 2% from used games to developers does not sound like a bad idea.

think about it, gamestop rip off gamer by 50%. Whenever anyone buy and trade in game.

whats wrong with giving 2% out of the 50%?

STK0262216d ago

And, how would you do that? I can see the big publishers try to enfore such a thing with Gamestop and Bestbuy, but it would be nearly impossible to enforce in smaller venues like most mom and pops stores. Now, if you can't enforce it everywhere, I highly doubt Gamestop and Bestbuy would be inclined to be at a disadvantage.

ddkshah2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

gamestop should just pay the publishers for the passes instead of making us pay and then give them to us when we buy the used game ;) Until then I shall stick with amazon ;) also I am not surprised this comes from insomniac since they have released some great games including Ratchet and Clank, and The Resistance Series which I thought undersold :(

SageHonor2216d ago (Edited 2216d ago )

If developers make good quality games then people wil buy them new.. If they dont strip content or do any other B.S. then people wil buy them new.. We want to save money just as much as you guys want to make money.

As far as the playstation pass.. My only concern is if this works for Resistance 3... then I wonder how many other developers would do this... and if it continues to work... what else would publishers do to try and slow down used games sales and make us buy new games more....