The videogames industry is no longer focused on improving graphics, according to Sony Computer Entertainment UK boss Ray Maguire, with attention now turning to artificial intelligence to make games more compelling.
And the fun thing is... Which console is actually optimized for AI with the hardware?
Right. XBOX 360
what bs are you talking ? the cell is in every aspect better than the xbox360 cpu by at least a margin of three.
achira... and your basis for this would be? oh yeah thats right you're talking out of your a$$ again. You would think you would at the very least have spent some time (like the year you've been waiting while I have been playing games) to research the strengths of your beloved PS3 enough to know that AI will not be one of them as compared to the 360 or other true multicore PC's. IDIOT!
as a side note.. anyone think its funny how now that the PS3 is about to launch and the games for it are NOT better graphically than the 360 like they said they would be that they are now trying to down play thier importance and instead say that they are focusing on other things...
P.S. achira and gametime are losers and I hope they both get thier PS3's so I can laugh to myself knowing that they basically flushed $200 extra down the sh!tter and had to wait a year to do so.
Achira, you must be one of the dumbest fanboys around. Your comment is almost too stupid to post a reaction on, but well, we'll try to learn you something
Even if the a so called 'core' on Cell would be comparable with one of the three simultanously working real 360 cores, one would need 3 x 3 (cores) = 9 to have a margin of at least three.
Now we all know that the Cell has 7 working ones, if they manage to get them at that level with a 10% to 20% yield. I bet every week after launch one core breaks down haha just joking in between
So 7 assymetric cores, competing with 3 simultanously real cores. It has been proven before: the actual performance differs almost nothing marginally seen. Especially not in games, while the 360 has the stronger GPU. And isn't it all about games and not about playing BR video's?
But I guess only a Freaking Fony Fanboy can make such a stupid comment what will make everyone see you are actually 10 years old
I agree with what he's saying, I think graphics at this point are fine and AI improvement wil make good games great...but his example of the Hard Rain clip makes no sense at all. That's not AI, that's scripted.
Well he's partially right, but graphics are still important. Fluid and fun gameplay is what makes games epic. But you still need the best graphics to immerse you.
He does not represent our true vision for the PS£. I mean obviously we obviously made the Killzone CGI movie, I think that's what we want to get across. The Blu-ray is for Hi-Res textures and models, since HD DOESNT START UNTIL WE SAY SO. If you want "gameplay", go buy the Wii.
more sony bullcrap again.
Hmmmmmm The Emotion Engine! Maybe!
Hey i mean id like to play mario with smart turtles then to play a 3d mario whith flashing lights and everything and turtles thta just slide around i mean come on!!! lmfao
Until I can go into my local Gamestop and get scanned to be a point guard on NBA 2K12 its going to be about graphics. Maybe you want people to believe otherwise because your wonderful Ps3 machines games dont look better than Xbox 360. In fact its grainy and pixalated. Dont worry Sony im buy 3 Ps3's in November. They will all hit eBay.
IMHO, I don't think that we will see a real jump in AI until the next gen machines are released (xbox720, ps4, or wii-wii). These machines will more than likely contain a seperate physics processors as well. Which I think is the next area for improvment.
I'll think we do this new generation.
Why? Because for example the first line of games for 360 only used 1 core, because gameproducers weren't known with the final hardware and been working on PC for that time.
Imagine. They go use 3 cores of the 360 where one is dedicated to AI. Last gen consoles needed to combine all the tasks and AI on one core/CPU. That's why the AI didn't grew any further.
So expect AI to improve massivly this generation.
mmm.. There is a word for this. Damage control... Now that people will see the power of the PS3 and how it is not much or any different from the 360, all of the sudden, "Graphics are no longer a big deal" why? because graphics becomes obvious immediately but AI it one of those things that sony can always say, "We gave the tools, it is up to the developers to use it."
Phil Harrison stated that Next-Gen isn't just about graphics, it's about the complex progression of A.I. as well. Or at least it should be. Graphics draw you in, and gameplay keeps you hooked.
What impressed people so much about the infamous Killzone video was not just the graphics, but the quality of the animation and A.I. If they can pull off the feel of that video in the game, then they're set to go.
Its that simple! Basically they talked so much about how they were going to revolutionize gaming. Instead they just put out another version of the same thing for more money.
Mistake 1 - Dont promise what you cant deliver
Mistake 2 - Dont pass CGI as gameplay. You eventually have to eat it. Motostorm looks nothing like the "video" last year.
Mistake 3 - Know when to give in. Sony has rushed the product just to stay in the race. Blu-Ray should have been scrapped. The life on this product is 5 years not 15.
i cant remember the last time i was wowed more by an impressive onsceen emotion more than an impressive on screen landscape
videogame graphics are at the point at where they arent going any better(unless they become photo realistic) when it comes down to. i wanna play a game that at leasts lasts about 4 weeks for $60-80 bucks. not 8-20 hours max.
"but that graphics have now reached a point where they are so good that developers must look elsewhere for the next big step forward."
this is not BS.
and second. yall need to read the cells white papers one more time. Reading is one thing, but comprehending is another
"Even if the a so called 'core' on Cell would be comparable with one of the three simultanously working real 360 cores, one would need 3 x 3 (cores) = 9 to have a margin of at least three.
Now we all know that the Cell has 7 working ones, if they manage to get them at that level with a 10% to 20% yield. I bet every week after launch one core breaks down haha just joking in between
So 7 assymetric cores, competing with 3 simultanously real cores. It has been proven before: the actual performance differs almost nothing marginally seen. Especially not in games, while the 360 has the stronger GPU."
Mart i cant really argue on that first comment but i dont you even know what a CPU core is. Basically a processor is a processor. the only different is tha the SPE have a lower chache and are single threaded. there are 7 SPE's, thats means that the PS3 has the Xbox360 CPU over by 3 threads
PPE= 2 Threads SPE=6 - 7 threads + 8-9 threads
3 cores= 6 threads
10% to 20% yield means that the software hasnt yet been fully optimize for the cell yet. thats not a hardware defect.
360 has the stronger GPU....not .this cant be proven until the RSX specs have been release. til then jusT be quiet.
Ok now this s me runnin my mouth
"yes the 360 has more general purpose processing power than the ps3. ps3 has more floating point processing power."
if anyone thinks this then they are a dumbazz, to have more general processing power you would think that the 360 would have a higher floating. BUT WAIT the PS3 has more floating point power??? that makes no sense at all. if you people havent heard yet. Bill Gates isnt that smart. he just did when the next person with common sense would have done. hire smart people to do the job from him. and thats about the smart thing he's ever done......
"We gave the tools, it is up to the developers to use it."
sony was always known for giving crap dev tools. not arguement there. and until devs get used to the cell/RSX the PS3 will seperate its graphical differences from the xbox360 which should take no more than 2 to 3 years
Thanks for marking my point though. Achira fanboy is thinking the Cell will outperform the 360 CPU by a margin of at least three. We can all see that's certainly not true.
I know the bad yield of 10% to 20% has no direct link with the 'cores' breaking down. I was just joking a bit, they might include the bad CPU's in PS3's with 'cores' breaking down ;)
The RSX spec's are known, but Sony says they won't release officially. Why not? Because they know comparing a standard old Nvidia PC card doesn't take up to a special designed ATI GPU for 360.
If it could, like they always misuse the TFLOP story, they would use it.
Sony always likes to talk but don't deliver so everyone should be worried why they're not talking more about the RSX.
For me it's easy. It's a 6800 Nvidia or something like that, 24 vertex/shader pipelines up to 48 unified ones will always crush it, especially with the speed tuned the same (the latest tune down in Mhz. on the RSX).
It's lust like Nintendo with Wii. They wish not to talk about it too much because they know they'll loose the battle if they're head on
And again: don't believe to much of Sony's nice stories including picking out any part of TFLOPS or other sh!t. The PS2 used to have that TFLOP story also, it should outperform the Gamecube and original XBOX by a factor of 10. Well urm we all know it never did and got defeated in terms of graphics
Even when they reach a higher level on programming, it won't be for the end of the life cycle of 5 years. And then the next XBOX will release and bring the new king again. Sony still has to lick it's wounds by then, loosing a massive 3 Billion dollars on every 10 million PS3's sold. That combined with already making 600 million loss every three months it's just not looking bright at all
sony really needs to either shut this dude up, or fire him.
one of the biggest reasons to get a ps3, at least according to sony, is because the games will look better with their blu ray and 1080p. but if the graphics aren't going to be any better, what the point in paying more to get a ps3? is sony preping their fans for upcoming diaapointing graphics? doubful , but who knows.
1. Online Multiplayer
People what do you think that the "Cell" processor is good at? its good at streaming, FPU's, AI & physics! Thats what the SPE's in the Cell are good at. So in this sense the Cell is a better match for AI & Physics than a general purpose core would be. And two, to all the people that are just being dumb little fanboys (which to tell you the truth is practically all of you's). The 360's GPU is closer to a R480 & R520, while the PS3 GPU is closer to a non-GTX/or GT, 7800-7900. Thats puts them about on par with each other. If anything the G70 cores are overall faster than the R480/520 cores. However its not that clear cut! the 360 has some other newer technologies in there, like the "Unified Pipelines" (it supposedly has 48 of them, which i doubt, to tell you the truth). But there is a big war about this between Ati and Nvidia, Ati says that it is more efficient to go the unified pipe route, because it results in less transistors and Nvidia says that unified pipes "is a jack of all trades, but master of none". There are valid points to both companies arguments. Yes Ati is right, it is more efficient and requires less hardware, but Nvidia is also right that unified pipes cant be as optimized. So far i think Nvidia is wining the argument, as thier GPU's are outperforming Ati's, but unified pipes is where the industry is heading. And also the 360's GPU has some other innovations in there, like the 10MB embedded RAM (which is supposed to give it free HDR and Anti aliaising, but i know for a fact its not giving it for free, cuz i can see with my own eyes that AA is being either shutoff or lowered in higher rez'es).
Also people recognize that the 360 (and i think the PS3 too) has a 128-bit memory bus from the GPU to the CPU. This in my opinion is weak, and cuts the 360's memory down in half from a PC's 256-bit bus graphics card. When the 360 tells you that its running at 700 mhz DDR, since its running on a 128-bit bus, it is equivalent to it running at 350mhz when compared to a graphics card with a 256-bit bus. I do not know why they went this route (and i think that the PS3 has the same problem too) but to me this is lame, and do not understand why they chosed that (other than cost cutting, which is probably the real reson why).
So people get of your high horses and stop being such inmature little fanboys and recognize the facts. The Cell processor is probably better fitting for AI and Physics than the 360 is (and notice i sais "probably" cuz i dont know for a fact), but DSP's (which is what the SPE's are) are better fitted/designed for specialized stuff than general purpose chips are. As a matter of fact its similar to the Ati/Nvidia argument about Unified Pipes. Where Ati's approach is closer to a general purpose CPU and Nvidia's is more akin to the more specialized SPEs. Its kind of like asking whats better to get more speed out of a car? two engines? or adding say maybe two turbos, or maybe even superchargers.
You doubt that the 360 GPU has 48 pipelines
Second: all major tests have shown that the ATI 1900 XTX (closest one to the 360 GPU, except the 360 GPU has extra's as the 10 MB extra fast embedded RAM) wins in tests from the Nvidia 7900 cards.
So please, make no more fun I laugh my butt off, "I doubt it has 48 pipelines" hahahaa you would know better then the hardware is listed?h hahahaha
Ps3 may be a technological wonder but its the programmers who make the games. If programmers cant use the tools its all for naught. Xbox360 is a year in on a 5 year cycle. They have made great tools for their games. Opening LIVE to the public will get more people using MS tools. Guess what those people will be recruited for MS projects.
I am huge on good AI. So I dig this statement.
with the quality of this generations graphics as a baseline I would have to say.
thanks somebody finally responded
Finally? it's just a hour after your post :)
Here is mine:
1. Online/AI (I can't make a choice between them)
3.Gameplay (well actually AI and Gameplay are interacting)
I guess it's almost to hard to make choices. But I know the online part makes me want to use the console
because Sony knows that ps3 is equal to xbox360 and they promise ps3 be 2x more powerfull than 360, so when graphics will be equal or better on 360 they can always say," you know we can made 2 times more better graphics than xbox360 but for us it isn´t importante, now it´s IA that mater."
is twice as powerful as the 360. But that power doesn't have a set distribution; it all depends on the needs of each title. Some need to allocate more power to physics and AI, some are solely dedicated to graphics, some are a nice balance of everything, etc.
They already showed a bunch of fancy numbers and superior tech specs at E3 2005, but most consumers don't know what floating point is, and frankly they don't care. The games are going to prove its power, and in fact even the top launch titles like Motorstorm are showing some amazing technological advancements that haven't been seen on any other platform.
With this much promise so early in the game, there's no telling how amazing PS3 titles are going to be a year from now.
They actually also showed 'numbers' with PS2. But did that gave the best results on games? No actually.
I don't care about Sony's specs. I care about what they deliver or not. And mostly they're not
Twice as powerfull as 360? Links? Not biased ones, analysts comparing them. They say the consoles are about of the same power and will deliver about the same. It's all on programming environment, online service and the content
i stopped caring about graphics after the i couldnt distingish a 360 game for a PS3 game. Gameplay/online/AI is most important right since there is a closing gap between graphical power between the 360.
It's all on programming environment, online service
TheMart i cant argue with this. this is something that sony dont have like MS. not even close. that online maybe free but it will still be second to XBL premium
Imaging your playing a shooter then you shoot at the enemy then all he does is run behind a tree or climb the tree then start shooting at yah.
These are the two first thing in next gen i want to see Animation and AI then graphics.
A game can look good but it aint got the animation or AI.
We want to play a game that has the same animation as what we see in a cgi and also the same AI, thats what u call next gen, but a this point i havent seen much of that from the 360 even thou its earley days in the next gen.
Last time I checked the Xbox 360 has been proven to have thousands of character models with there own AI like in Kameo, Dead Rising, and 99 Nights.
Hey as a gamer I want to continue to see every aspect of games progress and improve.....until graphics become picture perfect theres always room for improvement and even though we are still a ways away from that, I'm pretty impressed with the graphics we have now. I have been gaming for 20+ years so as far as graphics go, I can clearly see we have came along way, but when it comes to AI, I believe games have alot of catching up to do. I mean honestly games are just as fun as ever but I'm looking forward to the day when enemy's (videogame charachters) change tactics and "think" so you never no what they are going to do....for instance how many times have you been playing say a FPS, and after you get killed you know exactly what to look for?..because the next time you know the enemy will do or behave in the exact same way. As AI improves the enemy's will be tougher to predict which will mean games will become even more immersive and fun. I know we have games with decent or good AI already but it could be alot better than what we see in games now, imagine (videogame)teamates that actually "help" you defeat/win the game, not just along for the ride....its asking alot but I think AI can be drastically improved. OK, enough of my thoughts. BTW, this Maguire should do more talking for Sony....anybody but Ken, OMG anybody but Ken please! Its good time to be a GAMER!
Thinking he know's about Sony so much but really doesn't!,I'mean the retard thinks he is inside Sony's employee's and see there point of you and same thing with TheMart both of them are Microsoft d1ck suckers! and the rest of the Microfony fans.
Since he's an total idiot its not all about the graphics dumbass! falcindor "Duh!" or hasn't anybody told you that yet retard.
ps3 i have no idea about
as for the AI the reason why the ps3 will not be better is because the coding for AI in the now relies on branch prediction.
the ps3 only has one core to do this with which will be tied up with distribution of all of the intense streaming depressible ground in motorstorm so they say.
360's cores have rather long sets of branch predictors alowing for better ai.
also the word yeild in reference to computer chips Refers to the printing process of the wafers. the yeild [ercentage is how many functioning chips are pulled out of each wafer.
there you go clarified!
since everybody in here knows so mucha about the consoles processing systems...why aren't you working for them? Sounds like we have a bunch a geniuses in here...didn't know this was the forum for people who know every single thing there is to know about console processor systems....crazy.
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