1000°
Submitted by Simonkey75 1025d ago | interview

Tech Focus: MLAA heads for 360 and PC

The PS3 may lose one of its graphical advantages over the Xbox 360, with a team working on implementing a version of Sony’s MLAA anti-aliasing technique seen in such games as God of War 3 and Killzone 3 on Microsoft’s console – and they claim that they’ve “raised the quality bar considerably” over other versions. (Microsoft, PC, Sony, Tech, Xbox 360)

Credit url: beefjack.com
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Convas  +   1025d ago
Excellent news! Hopefully, we start hearing about more titles that take advantage of these technique.

I hear that Battlefield 3 for Xbox 360 will be using FXAA. Interesting stuff indeed!
SillySundae   1025d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(12)
NewMonday  +   1025d ago
would like to see it, how much resource dose it take on the 360, how much would be left?
#1.2 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(24) | Disagree(11) | Report | Reply
gamingdroid  +   1025d ago
They indicated a 2.47ms time compared to Sony's 3-4 ms (on five SPUs) which should give you an indication of resources needed, but more specific information would be nice.

I also would like to see why this is an issue. It's a freaken jagged line, that is already smoothed out as is. Can you even tell the difference?
#1.2.1 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(18) | Disagree(6) | Report
marison  +   1025d ago
They could and should use the Xenon GPU, unless some CPU resources area idle. With the MEMEXPORT feature the GPU could write on RAM and eat that again.

I see this as a very possible and useful bullet point on game engines.
Ju  +   1024d ago
This is using the 360's GPU (read the article). Not possible with the 360s CPU. It has been implemented before using ATIs chips on the PC running shaders. This is most likely a newer (better) implementation.
#1.2.3 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(3) | Report
Arksine  +   1024d ago | Intelligent
Because it runs on the GPU it needs to be faster. Running MLAA on the CPU allows the GPU to render the next frame in parallel, whereas a GPU implementation must render then postprocess before the next frame can be rendered.

I'm a bit skeptical of some of their claims, because ATI's implementation of MLAA isn't very good. IIRC there was a Star Wars game that used a similar type of AA for the 360, and while it was ok, it wasn't on par with MLAA.
#1.2.4 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(24) | Disagree(5) | Report
Pixel_Pusher  +   1024d ago
Yeah sorry but until I see proof of a game on the 360 that looks the same or better than GOW3 on the PS3 that's the day I'll concede. Until then it's nothing but hype.
#1.2.5 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(17) | Disagree(11) | Report
SilentNegotiator  +   1024d ago
I'll believe it when I see it (on 360, I mean, not PC). Without the integration of CPU with GPU, I don't think the 360 has the power to use MLAA in a significant way, like PS3 with the massive GOW3 and Kz3.

With PC, I suppose it would make sense if you can effectively emulate higher MSAA without sacrificing as much power.
#1.2.6 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(8) | Report
pixelsword  +   1024d ago
Hey, I thought MLAA sucked, so why is this big news or good news?

Because it was on the...?
Brosy  +   1024d ago
The 360 can use MLAA as well as a few other lighting tricks that surpass the PS3. Until I see cross game chat and Viva pinata running on a PS3 I wont be impressed by it. PS3 doesnt have enough general purpose processing to run the a.i. on a game like Viva Pinata let along do cross game chat. Atleast the PS3 has enough fans in other countries outside the US to keep it moderately competitive, otherwise folks would take the obviously better built machine the 360.

BTW for all who dont know a.i. cant be run on the Cells SPEs it can only be run by the Cells PPU.
#1.2.8 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(24) | Report
MaxXAttaxX  +   1024d ago
@Brosy ^^
'"Until I see cross game chat and Viva pinata running on a PS3 I wont be impressed by it. PS3 doesnt have enough general purpose processing to run the a.i. on a game like Viva Pinata let along do cross game chat."'

You serious? LMFAO! Hahaha :D
Best joke I've seen here on N4G in a while lol
#1.2.9 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(15) | Disagree(8) | Report
iagainsti120  +   1024d ago
Brosy is an ignorant fool who dosen't know that he is talking about
1- "The 360 can use MLAA as well as a few other lighting tricks that surpass the PS3."
This part about the MLAA is true but if the game does not use the Cell for lighting then yes you are right but if the lighting is done on the cell then you are wrong as lighting is so much better when written for the Cell"

2- "PS3 doesnt have enough general purpose processing to run the a.i. on a game like Viva Pinata let along do cross game chat. Atleast the PS3 has enough fans in other countries outside the US to keep it moderately competitive, otherwise folks would take the obviously better built machine the 360."
Really? AI is up to the developer it runs just fine on 1ppu core the rest of this is just Face Plam.

3- "BTW for all who dont know a.i. cant be run on the Cells SPEs it can only be run by the Cells PPU."
Well where did you hear this the E3? source pls or im wait im just going to Face Palm this too i dont have time for you anymore.
badz149  +   1024d ago
@Brosy?
WHAT? muahahaha....
RememberThe357  +   1024d ago
Whether it blows our minds or not, the fact that they're experimenting with it and trying out new ways of AA is good news. The more people try new things the more solutions we find to prevalent issues.

Instead of being skeptical and negative how about being happy that developers are trying new things.
AAACE5  +   1024d ago
Console architecture is designed differently than PC's! PC is designed to do many different things and has to be powerful because other things are running while you are doing whatever.

Consoles are designed to focus on specific task without all the extra crap PC's do!

Consoles have custom hardware! So while the components seem similar to what you already recognize, you forget that each console maker got their CPU and GPU custom made to perform a certain way! Otherwise the consoles would have been cheaper because we would be getting the same thing off the shelf as PC gamers.

Judgment will be reserved for a later date!
sobekflakmonkey  +   1024d ago
Brosy needs to GTFO.

@Brosy

Wow...I have never read such a ridiculous comment before...I'm sorry but games like Killzone 2 and 3 have AMAZING A.I., but you probably wouldn't know...would you? you know...being that you most likely haven't even touched a PS3...
r1sh12  +   1025d ago
Ive said it before:

The hardware will be hitting its max output some time soon, the software will need to improve is techniques to get more from it.
This could be one way (If it works), but its probably possible
Hayabusa 117  +   1024d ago
...
#1.3.1 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(2) | Report
Hayabusa 117  +   1024d ago
I would like to point out that PS3's MLAA was also done through software. It was possible on PS3 because it has 3 SPUs but MLAA is software, not hardware.

When you see games that look better than it's precedessors or competition it's primary because of the techniques the graphics programmers use. It's not like the developers slowly turn the "awesome graphics" nob up over time :p
Ness-Psi  +   1024d ago
@Hayabusa117

The Awesome graphics knob! it should implemeted in all PC's lol.
Gray-Fox-Type0  +   1025d ago
this is great news , Xbox has much graphical capabilities and dominates for multiplatform reasons, but this new technique could rise the bar of the Xbox 360 exclusives and perhaps reach PS3 exlusives :D this articles makes it seem it well go beyond we will see how devs use this.
#1.4 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(24) | Disagree(85) | Report | Reply
zinkabass   1025d ago | Trolling | show
BrutallyBlunt  +   1025d ago
zinkabass, still standing by everything you say?

I have a Playstation 3 and a XBOX360, does that mean I am a 3-10 year old or does my age fluctuate pending on which system I am currently using?

You would think after 5 or 6 years these trolls would finally just give up.
M-A-R-S-H-A-L-L  +   1025d ago
Someone has been misinformed and haven't done their research at all.
randomwiz  +   1025d ago
Only one problem - you're using the gpu which is probably already pushed to the max when playing the game. If you're going to use the gpu, you're sacrifice pixel pushing power.
CrimsonEngage   1025d ago | Trolling | show
firemassacre  +   1025d ago
gray fox

you cant be serious
Redgehammer  +   1024d ago
Zinkabass, my father would have said you must talk out of your butt, because your mouth knows better.
I have 100 friends on my friends list, and the youngest is 10 (my son) and the oldest is 54 (13 years older than me). Your comments just have the distinct ring of bitter generalizations. Why do you even comment in a 360 article?
fr0sty  +   1024d ago
Gray Fox, MLAA isn't the only thing that makes PS3 exclusives look better. Uncharted has never used it, for instance. Also, being that the GPU is what is handling this, it ties it up before it can render the next frame as well, so there is a performance hit vs. on PS3 where the CPU is able to do it while the GPU keeps on chugging along. Typically PS3 games are not CPU bound, so there are SPU's the can be freed up to do things like this with a minimal impact on performance.
strickers  +   1024d ago
You actually believe that AA is the difference between PS3 exclusives and 360 ones?
It's not.
bunfighterii  +   1024d ago
Now all 360 needs is exclusives to utilise the technique...
gapecanpie  +   1024d ago
So people actually like that blurry mess that is GOW 3 and just about every other ps3 game .... MLAA is a fking joke it does nothing then make a game a blurry mess.... This is one tech MS should skip on. One of the main reason I like 360 games gfx is because they aren't blurry....Oh well
#1.5 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(19) | Disagree(52) | Report | Reply
knowledge4lfe  +   1024d ago
really man? how old are you?? you sound like a little baby who didn't get his bottle. if you even played GOW 3 you'd sure as hell know its not bllurry. yet look at Halo Reach. has to be one of the blurriest games i've ever played. but i'm sure you won't admit that.
CernaML  +   1024d ago
Like knowledge4lfe stated, Halo Reach is blurrier than all the PS3 games that use MLAA. Crysis 2 is especially blurry.

MLAA was one hell of a breakthrough. I'm surprised you are crying about such an amazing tech coming to the 360.
gapecanpie  +   1024d ago
Hmmmm well first of all I haven't played Halo Reach so I wouldn't know. I have played some 360 games and they weren't a blurry mess as compared to the majority of ps3 games... Also to me GOW 3 is a blurry mess maybe not to you but to me it is and thats a fact and unless you have my eyes you or any one else can't disprove other wise.

(Insert lame comment about me seeing a optometrist here)

The only two crying and sounding like a little baby is you two... you must be like 6 or something defending a piece of plastic like your lives depending on it...

Oh and yeah I did play that short blurry mess, I even got a platinum trophy for it :) but its not worth the $60 dollars I paid because its so d*mn short and blurry.

http://us.playstation.com/p...

Let me guess I'm trolling right just because I stated my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if my comment get removed.
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AshleyRiot   1024d ago | Immature | show
BlackTar187  +   1024d ago
Gape you really believe that anyone believes you don't own a 360? in the last 3 comments you have put down PS3 games you have made points about ps3 getting owned in certain territories. You think people believe yoU?

Everyone look at his last 10 comments they are so hate filled its ridiculous. Troll is all he is.

here guys look at my PSN account lol.
#1.5.5 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(12) | Report
yingYangdragon  +   1024d ago
A lot of you guys are getting so b*tthurt over that one comment Gape made, I mean if it's not true then why get so b*tthurt over it??????

I never seen so many people get so passion over a gaming system before :O
#1.5.6 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(6) | Report
fallingdove  +   1024d ago
Glasses would help with your issue seeing in blur.
SilentNegotiator  +   1024d ago
MLAA....blurry? That's a good one, Mr. Troll.

GOW3 is vivid as can be. Compare that to ANY "360 games gfx". And I mean ANY. You'll find that GOW3 triumphs with the other game looking significantly more blurry.
#1.5.8 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(6) | Report
ndl1531  +   1024d ago
you know whats a joke ? microsofts lack of exclusives . atleast sony has games to implement MLAA on you idiot fanboy . doubt you even have a ps3 judging by your hate let alone played god of war 3. you probably game on a old a$$ 1980s tv thats why everything looks blurry to you haha time to upgrade man or your a$$ is blind one or the other
#1.5.9 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(3) | Report
Crazyglues  +   1024d ago
Actually I'm a PS3 fan, but I think this is good news for Gamers.. Why?

It's good to see Microsoft raising the bar, competition is what makes the game companies try harder... -So if more companies start using this then they will make better games for 360 and PS3.. instead of ugly ports..

-and it means better games which is always good no matter what you play on.. We all want, just really good games..

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#1.6 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(22) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
digoutyoursoul8  +   1024d ago
well said young man, well said.
sobekflakmonkey  +   1024d ago
Agreed.

Competition pushes the industry, it's an extremely important part of the gaming industry itself.
#1.6.2 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(0) | Report
xAlmostPro  +   1024d ago
This is awesome news.. but and im not trolling when i say this it doesn't fix the disc space issue -_-

you can make it look as pretty as you want but without the storage it's gonna be either really short or on multiple discs.. MD' isn't that much of an issue but it can be annoying..

anyways im excited to see what they do with this :)
bozebo  +   1024d ago
True.
MD is an issue if the game needs to be open world though.
#1.7.1 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(1) | Report
JsonHenry  +   1024d ago
My HD5870 already did this I thought?
Liquid_Ocelot  +   1024d ago
Great news!!
Can't hate on this, it's always great to see that we keep moving forward. Great news for our Xbox brothers indeed. Rejoice!
Brosy  +   1024d ago
NathanExplosion I cant help your ignorance as well as any of the other sony fanboys on this site, all I can do is try to educate you. And I think thats a useless endeavor.
50Terabytespersec   1024d ago | Trolling | show
THC CELL  +   1025d ago
U mean exclusives will look better on xbox that ps3, hm.............. Lol yea sure they will, sony will laugh there ass off at that one.. I garantee bf3 will be the worst in the consoles.
The Meerkat  +   1025d ago
Can we all quote you on that one?
UltimateIdiot911  +   1025d ago
I'll believe it when I see it until then it's just all mumble jumbo words.
WhiteLightning  +   1025d ago
Agreed...

We've been lied to before by Microsoft, I'm not falling for it again....."Theres hardcore games coming to Kinect", "Core gamers LOVE Kinect", "Core gamers are our main focus". Over and over again they say the same things and now they expect us to believe that they have done this for core gamers after yesterday in that article they said casual gamers were their main focus.

Not being fooled again

As you said....I'll beleive it when I see it.
#3.1 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(36) | Disagree(24) | Report | Reply
kneon  +   1025d ago
This isn't coming from Microsoft, it's from some graphics researchers. Microsoft had some involvement but they don't own it. The code is available under a BSD license which means anyone can use it.

So while it will benefit the XBox it may equally benefit PC, Wii U and even the PS3 as it's a more efficient way to implement MLAA.
UltimateIdiot911  +   1025d ago
@kneon
I do understand that it's coming from graphic researchers but again, there have been many researchers who claim many things but fail to come up with substantial results.

I don't doubt they are working on something of this sort but I don't know if it's as great as they say. It's dealing with graphics here and that requires us to look at it first. So while it may look good in their eyes, in reality, it could look meh.
MOTY  +   1025d ago | Well said
@ WhiteLightning

"Theres hardcore games coming to Kinect"

- Ryse - CORE
- Fable - CORE
- Child of Eden - CORE
- Haunt - CORE
- Star Wars - CORE
- Rise of Nightmares - CORE

Kinect implemented games

- Mass Effect 3
- Ghost Recon
- Halo CE Anniversary
- EA 2012 Sports Titles
- Forza 4

Doesn't look like MS lied.

"Core gamers LOVE Kinect"

I'm a core gamer and I love Kinect. Can't wait to play some of those listed core games as well as use my Kinect for games like ME3, Forza 4 and Ghost Recon.

MS didn't Lie again.

"Core gamers are our main focus"

XBOX 360 has a CORE library that far surpasses the Casual library. There are more games coming out each year on the XBOX360 that are core games than casual. If 3rd party support for Kinect games count as MS focusing on Casual, then 3rd party support for Core games also means that MS is focusing on Core as well.

Gears 3
Forza 4
The Whitcher 2
Halo CE Anniversary
CoD Timed exclusive DLC
The largest library of Indie and Arcade games

Seems to be a rather large focus. 1st and 3rd party support.

MS didn't lie again.

I fail to see where MS were lying.

I don't agree with you.
#3.1.3 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(41) | Disagree(40) | Report
callahan09  +   1024d ago
@MOTY:
"- Ryse - CORE
- Fable - CORE
- Child of Eden - CORE
- Haunt - CORE
- Star Wars - CORE
- Rise of Nightmares - CORE "

So I take it that "CORE" to you is based entirely on theme?
fr0sty  +   1024d ago
um, half of those games are either on rails or only use kinect for non-gameplay purposes (forza 4's car view mode, ghost recon's weapon mod mode, neither are used while actually playing the game). then there's others that use nothing other than kinect's mic, which is a feature that is far from exclusive to kinect. all modern systems have a mic and can do voice recognition. hell, the n64 was doing voice recognition back in the day, so did dreamcast with seaman.

The only compelling use of kinect so far IN GAME that isn't another arcade on rails experience is forza's head tracking, but even GT5 had that.
#3.1.5 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(17) | Disagree(13) | Report
Apophis   1024d ago | Spam
bozebo  +   1024d ago
"there's massive lag"

^ this, is why there can be no core kinect games.
#3.1.7 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(7) | Report
TimeSkipLuffy  +   1025d ago
I don't care! Just wanna play good games. There is not that much difference between those two consoles anyway. It's not like MS has NES and PS has GameCube graphics.
darkride66   1024d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(1)
falout  +   1024d ago
I agree..

This place with ppl like darkride always leave me scratching my head wonder if I got a ps3 knock off or something. They always make it seem as if the ps3 is leaps and abounds ahead of 360 graphics like if the ps3 is some super pc rig and the 360 is the original xbox.

Darkride cry all you want but every game you mentioned looks great be a gamer and stop with all this ms hat you spew on every 360 article. My goodness! You act as if ms raped your mom had you and never paid child support.
gamingdroid  +   1024d ago
I kind of agree with this. It's not like the PS3 is some graphical leap above anything else out there. In fact, the graphics is so similar to the Xbox 360 it is plain ridiculous. You want great looking games, go to PC and you will get full 1080p in all it's glory.

If you just want to game, then even the Wii will do!
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pixelsword  +   1024d ago
@ falout Darkride didn't say that any PS3 game looked like a high end PC rig...

A few other guys said it though, and I think I can trust the source...

http://www.gamespot.com/for...
starchild  +   1024d ago
I completely agree with this.

I play on PC, PS3, and 360, and it's crazy how close the graphics are on PS3 and 360.

I have been playing the Uncharted 3 beta and I honestly think the Gears of War 3 beta looked a bit better. Overall, though, the best looking games on both consoles are at a similar level of graphics.

If you want a decent leap above that, you have to get a gaming PC.
falout  +   1024d ago
@pixlesword

He didn't say it out right in here but he sure as he'll acts like it is a high end pc rig in 99.9% of his posts.
#4.2.4 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(2) | Report
MASTER_RAIDEN  +   1024d ago
AGREE! i first clicked on the article because i was wondering just what the hell MLAA was..then i see that it has a thing or two to do with graphics, and 160 comments from about 100 sweaty fanboys trying to downplay this achievement. get real guys..ps3s graphics are better than 360s. NOT by leaps n bounds, but its visuals are Superior in most ways. whatever upgrades the 360s visuals get due to MLAA will probably be very slight and more of the same. no need to get all defensive.
kudakadere  +   1025d ago
If only they still put more investment into hardcore games as they used to.
kookie  +   1025d ago
sounds good but we need new games as well
theonlylolking  +   1025d ago
This should be used in gears 3 because that game NEEDS some AA.

@disagrees
Dont act like it does not. If you played the beta then you should have saw how jaggy the game was.

@septic
If you look though my comments I am not trolling on the 360. I am actually commenting.
#7 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(19) | Disagree(30) | Report | Reply
Septic  +   1025d ago
What are you on about?? I played the beta and it doesn't NEED AA. Troll somewhere else please.
M-A-R-S-H-A-L-L  +   1025d ago
You can't say that about a 360 exclusive! What the heck are you doing?!/s
MOTY  +   1024d ago
I was in the Gears Beta and i thought it looked great. I must have missed all these jaggies you speak of during my month of constant playing in it.

Maybe you were in a different beta.../s
Old McGroin  +   1024d ago
Played the Beta, didn't notice any jaggies. Maybe you should have tried the Beta yourself?
BlackKnight  +   1024d ago
I am a PC gamer, and I need my AA, but when I played Gears of war 3 beta, due to motion blur, depth of field and the MINOR AA the game does have on any static objects. I had more issues with jaggies with BC2 or UC2 or Halo 3.
Insomnia_84  +   1025d ago
Hopefully, this will help clear the "PS3 and 360 have the same graphical power" debate. This article clearly states ONE of the PS3's advantages over the 360.

I had to take that one out.
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ct03  +   1025d ago
It's not a hardware ("graphical power") advantage. MLAA can be and has been implemented on the GPU, it does not need a cell processor.
bozebo  +   1024d ago
yes, but it has to be done on a different device than the GPU - otherwise it is trying to use the gpu resources which are already maxed out so it causes a lower frame rate or stuttering. The reason it works well on the PS3 is because there is plenty of spare CPU resources, especially for floating point calculations (the types used intensively in graphics) so the image can be Anti Aliased while the gpu starts working on the next frame.

The article merely states that they are able to get it working on the 360. In some games it could provide a performance increase compared to standard AA methods but probably not at the same time as defferred rendering (what most 360 games use now) because that eats up the 10MB edram so there is no space left to store the final scene while performing AA.

But anyway, AA is hardly important and it will never be possible to remove jaggies enough on consoles to please everyone. So developers shouldn't be sacrificing other visual quality just to get rid of jaggies.

------
Anyway, overall the 360's gpu is noticably more powerful than the PS3's. But the 360's CPU would be incapable of performing any useful amount of graphical calculations whereas the PS3 has plenty to spare if the developer learns to use it. /debate
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Corrwin  +   1025d ago
Awesome... Only 5 years late.

But in all seriousness, as each generation ages we should expect to see better looking games, as developers learn to get to grips with the hardware.
JsonHenry  +   1025d ago
Since when was MLAA better than real AA?
SuperKing  +   1025d ago
Depends how optimised it is. MLAA looks shit on PC but on PS3 SPU's looks glorious. Just a simple look at Killzone 3, LittleBigPlanet 2 and God Of War 3 shows this.
ct03  +   1025d ago
A "simple look at Killzone 3" reveals jaggy flicker galore because MLAA can't do subpixel anti-aliasing and causes temporal artifacts.
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

It works pretty well on God of War though.
socomnick  +   1024d ago
Mlaa looks terrible no matter where its implemented. Blurred mess that's all it is.
BlackKnight  +   1024d ago
That's what I don't like about MLAA, doesn't pull any sub pixel data so meshes (foliage, fences, grates, catwalks, any thing with alot of lines) pixel pop all over the place when it is in motion, you can't see it from screen shots.
nycrekid  +   1025d ago
jsonhenry

Do you know how stupid that sounds? MLAA or "real AA"?

WTF is "real" AA? AA is just a technique to remove jaggies on edges in games. Does it matter HOW you achieve that as long as the results are same?

Superking
4 people didn't play those games, especially GOd of War 3. you can't find a jaggy anywhere in that game!
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JsonHenry  +   1025d ago
^^ You know damn well what I meant. MLAA is not as good as traditional AA (which the 360 can do) albeit to a slightly higher hit to GPU usage due to it being unreliable.

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

It is a step in the right direction, but unreliable depending on the scene in front of you. At least it doesn't muddy the textures up very bad which has always been one of my complaints about traditional AA techniques.
Kurylo3d  +   1024d ago
he means real aa renders the entire image a 2nd time.. all the models and eveything.. 2x aa for real aa means it renders everything over again to smooth it out, while mlaa is a fake aa effect. It tries to find jagged edges in an image by using a couple of methods and then sort of applies a bluring type of filter to those areas. It doesnt catch every jagged edge that way, and it doesnt always look as good, but for this generation of graphics its not bad to use id say.

I think his point is that on the 360 u can do traditional real AA because the 360 is more powerful graphically because its gpu is a generation ahead. But still if u dont need to and u get a simlilar look with mlaa then you can use some of that power for other things and higher frame rates.
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ZombieAssassin  +   1024d ago
Haven't Ps3 games had this real AA you speak of?
madcowz64  +   1024d ago
God of War 3 was beautiful ,MLAA is more of a blurring effect and AA just smooths jagged edges. AA kills framerate, MLAA doesn't hurt framerate that bad. MLAA is acceptable these days and doesn't look half bad, AA is really only runs well on higher end PC's not consoles. The 360 can run 2xAA on a lot of games and if I'm not mistaken 4XAA on some,I could have sworn New Vegas had 4x.
#10.2.4 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(1) | Report
Kurylo3d  +   1024d ago
@ZombieAssassin

I cant speak for all of them, but most ps3 titles do not have any real AA where it re renders the entire screen. Ps3 gpu isnt powerful enough. Id say all the games on ps3 that are graphically impressive like god of war... do not use traditional real aa... part of the reason is some of them used deferred rendering which is a different rendering pipeline that allows you to get away with 100s of lights in a scene without any impact on performance, but the problem with deferred is it wont support real AA due to limitations... this is one of the reasons things like mlaa were invented in the first place.
gapecanpie  +   1024d ago
MLAA is awful and I hate it... It's the reason why just about all ps3 games look so d*mn blurry ....
Rybnik  +   1024d ago
Fail, you are talking about Qaa, not MLAA
Most PS3 Multi-Titles (GTA, RDR, Bioshock, etc) and (pre GOW3 exclusives) all used quinqunx anti-aliasing which in effect just creates a sort of blur filter over everything, texture detail suffers massively at the expense of edges looking smooth.

MLAA on the otherhand, works on finding edges by analysing the pixel structure in combination with using a depth buffer. It doesn't work on geometry at all. High contrast areas stick out clearly, and thus these parts of the scene effortlessly receive AA. Low contrast ares - like transition between textures - are harder to detect. But unlike QAA, MLAA doesn't blur texture details.

By comparison, both MSAA and SSAA work on the pixel structure and on available sub-pixels to some extent, meaning that the accuracy of the anti-aliasing is superior in comparatively high levels to MLAA, yet these are way too performance heavy (when such high levels are implemented) to be feesible in current consoles. In contrast, the memory cost of MLAA is a fraction of the other techniques while for the most part can offer the equivalent of up to 16x MSAA.

The Reason to use or not to use MLAA largely comes down to the type of game and art style chosen. In most cases, Game titles with objects made up of larger geometry, rather than ones with smaller, finer details are suited to the technique of Morphological anti-aliasing.

For instance, for a game such as KZ3, it's pretty clear that most objects get a fair amount of edge smoothing - more than what would be possible with 4xMSAA. However, the more complex and intricately detailed parts of the environment (read sub-pixel geometry)suffer from noticeable edge shimmering, and what looks like soft, crawling edges. Also, Because more in the way of detailed geometry is being pushed about on screen as compaired to even KZ2, the use of MLAA isn't perhaps as impressive as it would be in a completely different scenario (like say GOW3). The greater the amount of thin geometry in the scene, the less in the way of decent edge smoothing is present. In the end, anything between 2x all the way up to 16xMSAA levels of anti-aliasing are present throuout the game, with that being largely scene and geometry size dependant.

What would be awesome is if this new 360 implemetation can somehow allow the 2-4x MSAA that is supposedly "free" due to tiling AND offer the PS3's MLAA added on top of that! It would definitively allow the Xbox to have truly superior image quality to the PS3. Lets see what happens..
yingYangdragon  +   1024d ago
Well MLAA and Qaa is both a motion blurr technique and they both cause blur even if one is using less blur then the other... but that was still his point, so how did he fail????
#10.3.2 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(5) | Report
Ju  +   1024d ago
@YingYangDragon, did you actually understand a single word Rybnik just said above you? Go read again, maybe that helps.
yingYangdragon  +   1024d ago
I don't have to read what he said I know it use a form of a blur technique but yeah what ever. You can believe everything what some random guy say on the internet if that what make you happy...

"MLAA doesn't blur texture details" ~ Yes that is right but it still blur everything else. I know what that crap do on my mid range PC and it make all the games I play with that crap on look blurry....

Enough said......

Why do I even waste my time here???
#10.3.4 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(2) | Report
Kurylo3d  +   1024d ago
ying yang dragon is right.. the blur is applied to everything slightly, u dont notice it so much, but someone who is looking for it will spot it. It will blue parts of the scene that arent even edges.
Otheros00  +   1024d ago
Real AA?

AA just get rid of jaggies. There is not such thing as real AA or fake AA. AA is still AA even if you do it different.

Don't claim to be an expert when your not.

Nobody from amd, nvidia, pc reviewers, and pc gamers use the term real AA/Fake AA.
PirosThe4th  +   1024d ago
Best AA is UBER SAMPLING... look for it...
Kurylo3d  +   1024d ago
yea apparently i think he tried to reply to me, but some how missed my name. Yes talk to any other game developer right now.. these other "aa" effects are camera filters. Not traditional anti aliasing. These other aa effects arent half as good as traditional AA, but they are good enough. I mean these fake aa effects are like depth of field or motion blur to a game... just an effected added ontop of a camera to modify an image...
holdmedownma2008  +   1025d ago
Hmmm..I'm not sure about this one.....I believe it when I see it. Microsoft promised us a title to rival the first Uncharted and we have yet to see it. So I don't think you guys should get your hopes up. Also this information is coming from Richard LeadBetter who has a history to favor 360 over the PS3.
#11 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(16) | Report | Reply
AdmiralSnake  +   1025d ago
This is good news why are people getting disagrees for something to help the Xbox 360 Console ? You fanboys are something else lmfao.

Edit:

@Septic

This site is run by bias fanboys PERIOD. I don't care what fanboy it is. Ignorance is ignorance in my opinion they don't even seem human to me.... just fanatics and obsessed with proving their own preference lol.

@Phoenixdown

That's besides the point why would you be mad because another system is getting something to help gaming period ? Should they not get a good quality experience game as PS3 users ?

I tell you children on this site lol...
#12 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(22) | Disagree(9) | Report | Reply
Septic  +   1025d ago
It's not surprising is it? Ps3 fanboys run N4G

@ below- yeah they don't like the console and are fanboys of the PS3. How hard is it for you to understand? A cursory glance at this website proves it.

What do you mean don't jump to conclusions? It's a fact. If you cannot understand that then there is nothing more I can say.
#12.1 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(12) | Disagree(22) | Report | Reply
phoenixdown  +   1025d ago
or people that just don't like the 360. ever thought of that? not every ps3 fanboy so stop jumping to conclusions just you prefer something someone doesn't.
wenaldy  +   1025d ago
What goes around comes around, do you remember N4G back in 2007???
M-A-R-S-H-A-L-L  +   1025d ago
The fact that you're running around screaming 'PS3 fanboy to anyone who dares to like a PS3 is pathetic. I remember the days where 360 fanboys laughed and poked fun at the PS3 and its fans. Now they're crying wolf, as usual.

Take a backseat.

Awww, look at the disagrees.
#12.1.3 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(17) | Disagree(16) | Report
Redgehammer  +   1024d ago
There is a difference between a PS3 fan, and a anti Microsoft "fan". I understand liking what you like, and being willing to share positive feedback about the device, experience, etc. However, to simply bash someone elses preference, or options, is childish, and reminds me of the school playground.
Septic  +   1025d ago
@ marshow

I'm calling people who like PS3s pathetic? Why would I call myself pathetic seeing as I own and enjoy a PS3 too?

I don't care about the early days of N4G (of which I wasn't a part of) because 360 fanboy or PS3 fanboy, its not justified in any circumstance.

The fact is, this place is infested with Sony fanboys who are so petty and and counter-productive to what is otherwise a great website.

Go on an article about Halo and its filled moronic trolls spewing nonsense. Go on an article praising an element of the 360 and you fanboys jump on spamming disagrees and trolling against a person who shows any favourable interest whatsoever.

Don't make blanket assumption in the future to avoid making yourself look like a clueless fanboy again.

Edit- oh you say look at the disagrees? Lol if you had any intelligence whatsoever you would realise it confirms my point exactly. You as your trolling mates can disagree all you want in a desperate bid to increase the size of you e-pen*s. It doesn't change the fact that your pre-pubescent and illogical ramblings will carry any weight.
#12.2 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(13) | Disagree(12) | Report | Reply
MetalProxy  +   1024d ago
"I don't care about the early days of N4G "??? I have been here for a while now (alot longer than your 77 days) and I do remember those early days and they do matter. You xboys where pathetic, it was so bad they had to change the bubble system. Look at your agrees, dont tell me there isnt any xbox fanboys here.
Bonobo12345  +   1024d ago
Your all as bad as each other.

I'm a fan Of PS3 but I generally stay off Xbox related articles, I no longer own one so why?

On 360 articles there are PS3 fanboys and on PS3 articles there are 360 fanboys...

Yeah there are a lot of PS3 fans nowadays, It shows the PS3 has gained a lot of support for great service. Don't forget that a troll Is usually trolling due to some other fanboy comment that ticks them off, Its a vicious Trolling circle and to put the blame on only half of it shows your short shortsightedness.

You can't even express honest opinion without being called a fanboy, everyone's just so touchy, geeez..
#12.2.2 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(3) | Report
Inside_out  +   1025d ago
Please...don't follow the PS3...
.
I haven't seen anything on PS3 that is better than 360. This year, more than any other is making that very clear...

" Sony didn't take this lying down though, and created a new effect "...lol...the new effect is termed " simulations " as naughty dog calls it. It's where your console is inadequate and near impossible to code for so you make pre-rendered cut scenes the main component of your game. GOW was practically all rte's. They show you some 1600 foot monster, ask you to tap a button and then when the screen stops moving, you get to fight with some monsters toe nails...sorry, not impressed. Uncharted was worse. Sony has had to resort to this type of fraud to hide the fact the cell is a failure at gaming...

http://youtu.be/7NpAXMdBWTQ

Crysis 2 raised the bar this year with fantastic visuals that showed it's in the hands of the devs...

http://youtu.be/kF67XFXq_ys

Destruction is beautiful...

http://youtu.be/mW8bMnkZozQ

Epic and their engine Unreal 3 have been a catalyst all gen...starting with this...

http://youtu.be/cwEW6pBBs1M

...and Gears 3 will raise the bar they already set...just ask Lucas Arts who recently signed Unreal for ALL their future games...

http://youtu.be/efYjoNaEA5c

...and a second to none multi-player...

http://youtu.be/f_yEgrhiSPM

Sony has come a long way this gen from those dark,scary early days but as they have tried to compete with the big boys, they have falling behind. Uncharted looks pretty bad and KZ 2 looked better than KZ3 in many ways. As they add more features, the visuals have gone backwards.

I have a PS3 and completed ( own both ) Uncharted 2 as well as KZ2 and 3. You can't compare them to Halo and Gears both in features and visuals. I do like the way Resistance is looking and is hoping it's a good as it appears. It could turn out to be the best game yet on PS3
#13 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(16) | Disagree(39) | Report | Reply
WhiteLightning  +   1025d ago
"I haven't seen anything on PS3 that is better than 360"

LOL

Ok then.......

What a blind fanboy
Drekken  +   1025d ago
Wow... You should win some sort of award for being so unintelligent and able to type.
gamingisnotacrime  +   1025d ago
flmao
that was the craziest comment ever

bubbles sir
Bonobo12345  +   1024d ago
Ya lol, he structured his sentences well but is obviously delusional..

Why do people defend the 360 with such force?
I will never understand...
darksied  +   1025d ago
Wow, so much work into such a terrible comment. Truly uninformed and incorrect.
firemassacre  +   1025d ago
dude the xbox360 has not even matched uncharted 1 in graphics.
ksense  +   1024d ago
god all the people, journalists and websites must be wrong for giving the ridiculous amount of awards and praise to uncharted for best graphics , gameplay, game, etc.... I will tell them that they were all wrong and blind and that they should listen to what you say....
kingdoms  +   1024d ago
Agreed
You're on one of the smartest people on this site and the proof is your bubble count.

I hope we see more developers making more advanced software engines and tech that takes full advantage of the 360's multi core multi thread hardware like devs are starting to do now. The dime a dozen multi platform engines designed to crank out multi platform games only show the 360's edge with multi platform games. This doesn't benefit the 360 when Its exclusives use the same engines while ps3 exclusives use engines crafted for the Cell alone, in ps3.

I don't know why ps3 fans are so delusional and fanatical. The only time the ps3 versions of games top the 360 version's is when devs purposely slack on the 360 version's because of something to gain or to avoid upsetting the rabid base.
#13.6 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(6) | Report | Reply
KING_KAI  +   1024d ago
'The only time the ps3 versions of games top the 360 version's is when devs purposely slack on the 360 version's because of something to gain or to avoid upsetting the rabid base'

= bs and im a 360 fan
maxmill  +   1025d ago
Wait? Since when did ps3 have AA?

Shits a jaggy fest for me
nycrekid  +   1025d ago
What brand TV do you use? I'll make sure to avoid it when I buy my next one.
maxmill  +   1025d ago
What do you use? my TV is pretty old, a 2008 bravia
Wikkid666  +   1025d ago
More importantly... what type of connection are you using?
maxmill  +   1024d ago
what do you mean? i have an hdmi
Wikkid666  +   1024d ago
HDMI can be touchy. There are all kinds of versions. 1.0, 1.1, etc. You have to make sure what kind of connection your tv has. Then make your cable supports that version.

Also make sure your tv and console settings are right. If you have 720p tv don't try to set your console for 1080p.
madcowz64  +   1024d ago
Jaggies happen on HDTV's and it's not just your tv, remeber that MLAA and 2xAA really doesn't completely eliminate jaggies.
Ju  +   1024d ago
Go play with your TVs contrast settings if all you see is jaggies.
belal  +   1025d ago
What does MLAA really do? it dosen't help graphics right? in eliminates jaggies?
BeastlyRig  +   1025d ago
it blurs edges to hide jaggies. BF3 will use it.
#15.1 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
PirosThe4th  +   1024d ago
You can also reduce the Sharpness of your tv... It works really well...
Here2SpeakTruth  +   1025d ago
games look about the same anyway. no big difference between ps3 and 360, but for some, boasting one over the other helps them sleep at nigh
b_one  +   1025d ago
so now Sony will rise up bar even more :) nonesense ;)
andibandit  +   1025d ago
So the PS3 just had 5 SPU's lying around doing nothing, god damn those game developers need to learn how to program.
thekiddfran  +   1025d ago
So how many third party devs have actually used this technique on the ps3? Microsoft doesnt have the 1st parties to use this tech. although I do hope halo 4 will use this!
Bonobo12345  +   1024d ago
why did people disagree with this?
doesn't matter what your a fan of, what he said was completely nonbelligerent.
thehitman  +   1025d ago
This article seems like some fanboy with high hopes wrote it. I am trying get to the source which for some reason I cant register on that site, but he called the ps3 MLAA highly demanding lol which if he knew anything about aliasing MLAA is 1 of the most undemanding techniques out there and who are the people he mentioned from what studio/dev team are they apart of what game they are making etc.... poor article seems like this author was just talking out his ass.
dragonelite  +   1025d ago
Gameindustry.bizz is far from a fanboy site.
thehitman  +   1024d ago
didnt say gameindustry was talking about this 1 who fails to list proper sources and better context when he takes from another site.
dragonelite  +   1025d ago
A 343 engineer got his hand on FXAA which already was around 1ms. And he optimized it on the 360 and it was 16~30% faster depending on situation then the initial implementation.

Still i prefer 4xMsaa then those post processing detail destroying post Effect AA filter.
M1chl  +   1025d ago
Since when is MLAA from Sony? Intel engineer Alexander Reshetov developed it: http://visual-computing.int...

And "PS3-Like Style"? No, on PS3 it runs on SPUs (CPU), but on Xbox it runs on GPU. Its pretty inaccurate article.
---
Anyway I think that this "post-process AA" will be smashed by FXAA, from I have seens is superior to MLAA a and its less demanding to HW. But it requies some "hard coding" to the platform, so implementation could be harder...
BlackKnight  +   1024d ago
People will argue Sony took that form of MLAA and made it better (which they did) but since they did it better, it makes it "sony tech". It is just fanboyism. Even this article is dumb because post processing an image to remove edge aliasing has been around BEFORE MLAA in games, "edge detect" and other forms of post processing AA have been done before.
gumgum99  +   1025d ago
Still doesn't help your game library though. What about that?
MOTY  +   1024d ago
XBOX 360 game library is larger than the PS3 game library. What about that?
abczby  +   1025d ago
Well, the 360's video card is already capable of tessellation...
Which the PS3's video card isn't capable of and will never be capable of... So the Xbox 360 actually already has the ability to have better graphics than the PS3, it's just that only recently did developers realize the 360's video card was capable of tessellation, so I'm guessing you'll see newer games start to use it.

That Lionhead tech demo released a month or two ago showed off tessellation on the 360, and graphically, that was far beyond anything released for the PS3 or 360 yet.
#24 (Edited 1025d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(13) | Report | Reply
Thecraft1989  +   1024d ago
It maybe able to do it but not at high enough FPS or resolution.

Gears of war is one of MS graphical games. If they could effectively add tessellation they would be paying millions to get into gears of war.

Trusting anything Lionhead have to say is very stupid.
#24.1 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(5) | Report | Reply
abczby  +   1024d ago
There's a video on youtube of Lionhead's tech demo
in HD, running at a consistent rate of 30 FPS, on the Xbox 360.
Here is the link moron (I embedded it also, just incase using this link is too confusing for you):
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

I love how your comment gets more agrees than disagrees, even though it is blatantly incorrect. It just shows how idiotic every PS3 fanboy is on this hideously biased website.

Related video
#24.1.1 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(3) | Report
Ju  +   1024d ago
That sounds strangely familiar to what id does with Mega Textures in their latest tech5 engine. I am surprised they didn't use the same term (well, they did: page 27).

So, while impressive, it is nothing which is unique to the 360. Virtualization of geometry and a huge "paged" texture are not new ideas. Very impressive tech, non the less. Geometry virtualization was used in all Uncharted games.

If anything, what that shows, is that we can expect quite some more from future console titles.
#24.1.2 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report
Thecraft1989  +   1024d ago
and started to wonder if every 360 fan boy is blind. The water and sky look like shit. There is many 360 games look a lot better than that tech demo.

You may be add effects but the bottom line is the hardware dose not reach requirements to running anything from dx11. Not to mention there is nothing happening in that tech demo if thats running 30fps now imagine adding a load of buildings and people etc.

Its like adding coke to bottle of piss you can do but won't taste good.
#24.2 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
abczby  +   1024d ago
Another fanboy pretending to know something when they really know squat.
The man who presented that video at GDC 2011 stated that the entire thing was captured at a steady frame rate of 30 FPS, and if you think any game on any of the current consoles has foliage that even comes close to comparing what is shown in that tech demo your vision obviously has some sort of impairment that prevents you from being able to tell something that is more visually impressive apart from something that is less visually impressive.

Also, there are water and lighting affects being shown off in that video that almost no Xbox 360 or PS3 games currently use, and there is tessellation being shown off, which is currently used by NO CONSOLE GAMES, and can never be done on the PS3 because the PS3's video card does not support it. You're an idiot. Next time, try to contain your fanboy rage and don't make a complete moron out of yourself.
#24.2.1 (Edited 1024d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(2) | Report
yewles1  +   1025d ago
This news is old... OLD!!! And if you remember correctly, MLAA implementation on AMD chips haven't been pretty. In fact, they've been disastrous.
qwertyz  +   1024d ago
horrible ? like killzone 3s mlaa implementation lol
andron666  +   1024d ago
Welcome after 360 developers. Less jaggiez for everyone...
Merivigian  +   1024d ago
This is good news, a longer life for our systems! Would this be put in an update though or what?
STGuy1040  +   1024d ago
So much arguing between console users. I own both systems and enjoy them equally.
zero_cool  +   1024d ago
Here's some links on mlaa for anybody who wants to check them out but if not that's fine just thought id post them anyways enjoy!

http://www.realtimerenderin...

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

Practical Morphological Anti-Aliasing:

http://www.youtube.com/watc...
nightmarex121  +   1024d ago
And that's why people want 360 to have core games b/c sony needs the competition. With out xbl psn wouldn't be good as it as today, with out sony mlaa 360 wouldn't have gotten this.
Jocosta  +   1024d ago
bubbles for a non biased, non trolling post.
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