Smarthouse: Sony who announced a $3 Billion plus loss last week is pinning their future, on a brand new processor which some are speculating will lead to a new Playstation 4.
Teh Cell will prevail
So will Sony, and possibly Microsoft. Nintendo....... ish. I feel like Nintendo are starting to try too hard.
meh just double SPE's ? Not buying it. Give me hits rumor.
i see it this way sony has the cell and bluray. they took the hit this year. nintendo next console could have bluray ,and a touch screen and its HD so it wil be expensive plus who is it for. look at the 3ds its adds with a little bit more power and pop up book 3D is what i call it and it coast an arm and a leg BTW 3ds is a flop they want to sell 16 million by this time next year and they are not near 4 million, japan didn't take to it at all and wii in japan is DEAD(i swear look at the numbers) microsoft needs a new CPu,GPu Bluetooth, wifi day one, with will cost mony and either go bluray or make a new format either way its cost money next get sony will win because they took the hit this gen by bring out new tech. this is their first system with a true OS running at all times and a first gaming network so it only gets better
modern higher end cpus have well over a billion transistors. the cell in the ps3 has 230 million. therefore the spu count in the ps4 will be quadrupled at least. it will probably be a quad ppu 32 spu updated iteration of the cell with more local store for each spu and probably branch prediction in the ppus and more cache. probably will run at 4ghz+. ps4 will probably have 2-3 gigs of high performance main ram and a gig of gddr5 video memory. the gpu will probably be based on either nvidias fermi architecture or something newer. first party titles will most likely all render 1080p native at at least 30 fps. there is no way sony is going to ditch the cell architecture now. all the devs are just starting to wrap their heads around it. its best to keep a familiar development environment. a cell/fermi combo would be a parallel processing powerhouse. we might even see some simple ray traced games.
Well a non-upgraded simply extended Cell would equate to 16 SPES = 16 threads. If its upgraded though its very likely we will see different numbers at least adding up to 12 threaded CPU or greater. I am expecting them to at least match Nintendo's rumored 6 to 12 threaded CPU. I expect the design to mirror IBM's Power7 CPU. Capable of 32 threads only to a slightly lesser extent. Maybe around 24-30. Never know. This site is not exactly well known. 16 SPEs makes this twice as fast as current Cell. Facepalm. Someone doesn't understand technology. @ guy above me. All possible. Likely 32 SPUs are not necessary to reach 32 threads though. 4 Ghz certainly possible. Both Cell, Power7 run up to 4.25 Ghz or so stable.< At 45nm A more efficient smaller CPU on 32 nm could run higher and be cooler. 1080 is going to be a standard for next gen. All games running at least 30 fps on this standard.
nobody including sony will use the cell next gen. Next gen you will see an arm powered ps4. Lower priced, lower powered, but profit for sony day 1.
This rumor is very likely IMO. I've been saying that the new Playstation will simply have a faster, more powerful processor, with more RAM and probably a bigger hard drive. If we are to believe the article, it would seem that the PS4 will use as much as it can from the PS3 in order to keep costs down so they're not losing money on developing an entirely new console.
First paragraph error "What we have been told is that Sony is working on a very fast processor which is being developed with IBM, who was the original architect with Sony and Toshiba of the Cell processor, which has been used by both Sony and Microsoft to power their gaming processors for nearly 10 years." "which has been used by both Sony and Microsoft to power their gaming processors for nearly 10 years." "which has been used by both Sony and Microsoft to power their gaming processors for nearly 10 years." "which has been used by both Sony and Microsoft to power their gaming processors for nearly 10 years." "which has been used by both Sony and Microsoft to power their gaming processors for nearly 10 years." Sony and Microsoft uses cell processor for 10 years? LOL!! This article is a fail from the first paragraph!
@The Killer I lol'd a little myself seeing it took this long for someone to post that. +bub
Thank you Killer for posting that. I can't believe no one caught that. Definitely makes you question the credibility of the whole article. I definitely think Sony will use an upgraded cell for the ps4 with more ram and more bandwidth and of course a much more powerful gpu. The possibilities with that combination are very great.
its less about the cell, and more about how much memory (ram) they will put in the system..splitting the 512MB of ram in the ps3 is the one thing that most 3rd party devs have a problem with, especially when the console first came out
This Article is full of fail HAHAHA
Cell has the playstation on lock get it cell is the future
If Cell+ Rsx+ 512mb ram can make U2/U3/KZ3/FF13/LA noire/ GT5 / GOW/ Infamous2 .....etc What will be the Power of the Upgraded Cell ? Tradtional Specs are crap & easy to hack. We can see more exclusives if they keep cell.
ignorance. if it was why isn't intel releasing larrabee as a cpu(its basically a cell that's much easier to code for and that's because it uses x86 cores). The cell architecture has weaknesses but you dont seem to know any of them any i7 or even i7 quad core will destroy the ps3s cell+the 360s gpu put together.
@aia12 Larabee and the CELL are 2 entirely different things. Larabee is literally a GPGPU while the CELL is a CPU with only 1 core, 8 Synergistic Processing Elements that can do GPU kind of jobs but only 1 at a time and 1 PPE to maintain the job queue of the SPE's. CELL can't really replace a GPU unless it had like 50 SPE's and that would be a nightmare to code. Each one of the SPE's needs to be coded individually and that's why the CELL can't be used in conventional computers. It would be just too hard and inconvenient, specially for multi-tasking with only 1 core and no SPE optimization. The entire OS would need to be rewritten for it to take advantage of the architecture. And by architecture I mean the SPE's... The reason the PS3 struggled at the beginning was ----------------------- edit: And let me add that the CELL still outperforms the best i7 that Intel has to offer right now in 2011. Believe it or not. Don't want to believe? Then google it yourself. CELL = 218 GFLOPS Intel Core i7 980x Extreme Edition = 107.55 GFLOPS
True, cell outperforms PC processors in single float operations. But for games and general computing, double float operations are more important. In that area the I7 leaves skitmarks all over the cell (I7 = 70, cell = 15.)
@peaceful jelly The cell will not outperform an i7. you are simply wrong. Perhaps in 1 or 2 structured benchmarks, but overall the I7 will absolutely destroy the cell in every category. Also Gflops is not a reliable source of determinate speed, that is a theoretical number that describes bandwidth on paper with very basic vector based calculations. The real killer is in IPC (instructions per clock) something that intel has been focusing all of their energy on improving. and don't get me started on the 2nd generation Intel I processors the i5 2500K is faster than all previous i7s but the 980X. the i7 2600k is faster in most tests. has hyper-threading and absolutely crushes all current GPU solutions for transcoding video. my I5 2500k takes about 8.5 minutes to transcode a full movie to 1080p 23MBPS my Ati radeon hd 6970 currently takes around 13 mins. both of which are faster than the cell based trancoding of the WinFast PxVC1100 card that has a cell processor on it with comparable conversion settings.
I think it's a great idea to use the cell processor for a PS4. The PS3 cell was too hard to develop games for because they were rushed in development of the chip and didn't talk to the software side when developing the chip. Sony also made the mistake of dividing the memory into 256mb for the processor and 256 for the graphics instead of sharing the memory. Hopefully Sony will correct the problems they made with the PS3 cell and make a PS4 cell that's easier to develop for.
``and let me add that the CELL still outperforms the best i7 that Intel has to offer right now in 2011` LMAO! Um...no, just no... reedbananaboat is right. There are simply too many people on this site that havn`t a clue about hardware.
And cue PC fans....
@reedbananaboat: You are aware the SPURs chip on that winfast card only has 4 SPEs, has slower memory and runs at less than half the clockspeed of the PS3's Cell? So you're comparing something that is at best 1/4 as fast as a full Cell processor. An upgraded Cell with the same transistor budget as an Intel Sandybridge would have 4 PPUs and 32 SPEs. It would crush the i7 in many, many tasks.
The win-fast card has the ability to access the CPU of the computer to assist in transcoding. should be more than enough for a comparison seeing as how "the cell has 218 gflops". and btw the other four are still present but modified in order to make it more efficient in decode/encode h.264 and mpeg-2 "Toshiba replaces two SPE in the Cell processor for a hardware MPEG-2 decoder and encoder. In addition, two more SPEs have been replaced for hardware H.264 decoder and encoder. Furthermore, the Power Processing element (PPE) has been eliminated and the FlexIO has been replaced for a PCI Express bridge for interconnection to the host. The result of such changes allow the SpursEngine to be have an integrated full HD MPEG-2 encoder and decoder, a full HD H.264 (MPEG-4 AVC) encoder and decoder, and more power efficient than the Cell architecture. "
So you agree it's a meaningless comparison. Good.
I wish Sony goes with a conventional CPU + GPU set up for the PS4 instead of using a Cell processor. Graphics and performance won't take a hit, as current CPU's are much more well suited for gaming when compared to a Cell. Shoddy ports will be less frequent, as third party studios won't have to spend years on researching how to work with the Cell, a luxury Sony first party developers have. I think, overall, that at the end of the day it'll be the best for developers and consumers. The only real downside I can see is PS3 backwards compatibility issues.
@Thrillhouse - It would be madness to drop all the R & D that has gone into Cell now. I mean all the Dev tools are in place, they just evolve over time. Most devs are starting to get to grips with Cell now. Cell is a very scaleable CPU, and hugely capable CPU. By the time PS4 releases Cell could be on a gen 4/5 Cell, smaller, faster, cooler, less power comsumption and cheaper to manufacture. So re-using Cell+Blu-ray could help Sony see major returns from there billions of investment.
Oh, it's undoubtable that all of the knowledge would no longer be applicable, and that's definitely unfortunate. I just think that it would be easier in the long run to use a conventional CPU, and this would be very beneficial to both devs and gamers.
If developers don't understand the Cell architecture by the time the PS4 comes out, then we can truly say they're lazy devs. Come on. So, if and when the PS4 uses a Cell architecture, I don't want to hear developers saying, "Oh, it's too hard to develop for the PS4..." and all that crap. If the PS4 uses a Quad PPU, 32 SPU Cell architecture with an upgraded GPU and around 4GB of main RAM, with 1GB of Video RAM, then the thing is going to be a graphical monster!! It's probably going to make the PS3>PS4 a bigger leap than PS2 to PS3 was. Also, if they take the Cell approach again, backward compatibility won't be an issue this time around. It will easily be able to play ALL PS3 games, and possibly run them easier than the PS3 does. Plus, developers who have taken the time to learn the Cell architecture will be rewarded by the fact that they won't have to re-learn any new technology. I can't wait for the PS4!
I have only one thing to say. ARCHITECTURE CHANGES! If you don't like it, go back to 1985. And I'm happy it's being pressed forward. I can't wait for great affordable cell processors for my home cpu.
They most likely won't use a "conventional" CPU+GPU because of piracy. There is a reason to why the ps3 was the last console to be hacked, and they constantly find ways to block said hacks. The CELL-processor plays a part in that.
@Thrillhouse That's the problem with your generation... "oh it's too hard, I'm a wuss and I give up...." In short the easiest solution isn't always the best solution in the long term, technology demandes evolution in order to advance and it's not by sticking to the same model like a sheep that things will get better. sheeps these days... pfft... nuff said
Hear what some of the guys above me are saying. I truly do. But BUT the devs arent lazy because they didnt "figure out" teh cell. I wouldnt be surprised if alot of devs didnt expect teh cell to last past this gen when everyone else uses the standard cpu/gpu. So its my belief that even if Sony uses teh cell again there will be reluctant devs out there. I mean its not like the teh cell has taken the world by storm or anything.
Over time shoddy ports will almost disappear anyway as Cell becomes more common and people learn it. I dont see why Cell arcitecture cant be used on ps4. Just uppgrade it, new PPU, new SPU's etc. Devs have already spent so much on mastering it so just letting it go when it obviously carries a grand potensial is sort of lame? Guerilla, SM, ND, PD +++ Even some third party devs; IG, Crytek, Suckerpunch, Dice, kojima and so on. Regular CPU design better than cell? IDK about that. Its easier, yes. but over time Cell will be easy too.
Agrees with Thrillhouse, sorry, but architecture changes. You are a glutton for punishment if you insistantly stick with older technologies if better, newer, proven ones exist. Its ignorant foolishness. If CELL is no longer deemed viable as it is a decade old design, then sony should not hesitate to bin it. Intel went down the path of pentium 3, and 4, for years. Longer and longer pipelines. They finally decided it was a mistake after being trounced by AMD's athlons and binned the whole thing, years of development, to go back and base core 2 on a completely different lineage. Result? Revolutionary leap in performance... Binning an architecture in favour of something new does not mean you were wrong 5 or 6 years ago when you made the decision to use it, it was maybe right at that time. It merely means you know when to quit and use a fresh piece of paper. The most IMPORTANT factor is that sony properly consult with developers this time around. Ask the developers what they want to see. Don't just tell them what they are getting and tough if you don't like it....perfect way to avoid the PR disaster that was around for PS3 in its early life. Ask a developer if he wants to spread his code over 32+ threads right now, and he'll tell you it would be a nightmare. This is despite all the experience gained from multicore processors. The more threads you have, the more difficult it is to achieve maximum efficiency. Basic law of programming.
No. For what the cell lacks in terms of ease of use, it more than makes up for in the power department.
every so often theres a cost in development its usually offset by releasing it to recoup some of this loss arm processors are extremly simple and fairly limited even a 8 core arm would struggle with complex instructions wich means more chips handle decoding and other stuff arm= portable sony took a huge hit on ps3 but they own a factory which means parts are made at cost and they own the tech no licences no middleman a duel cell on 32 nm would be waht i expect to see same silocon price as the current 64s its now understood tech and it would be easy to die shrink the rsx and pop it onboard as well for on chip back compat the research is done ps4 with a 32 nm 16 spu would be very powerful allmost as powerful as a duel 8 setup up local storage to 512kb per spe up the ram to 2 gig xdr for both gpu and cell and have 1 gig dedicated to graphics retial prices that wouldnt be too much 1tb hdd and a x8 bluray and your laughing
You are probably too young to remember that PS2 was also difficult to developer for but over time devs got used to it.
Yes, you can do whatever you want if there is no competitor alas PS2 dominated the market. There wasn't really much of a choice. PS3 came from a very strong position in the market and many people waited for it. Yet, by the time it came it faltered and is now a fraction of it's original user base.
Wow you guys have no idea what your talking about do you? The cell is not hard to code for they just crippled it with bottle necks galore. Tell me how fast core to core bandwidth is and where does the cell store data? Let me put it to you like this open gl and direct x has some thing called a computation shader. You know what it does? Stuff that the cell use to but guess what it works and you can use on over 500 cores at the same time. Yes that's what's in your current hd gpus on pc. What is funny is this core is in the cafe also. The cell needs major tweaks not just more. There is a reason why you don't see ten core CPUs because of memory sharing problems and bandwidth. The cell was basically an idea that ati and nvidia had already got started. Now it's up and running and the tools work. If you guys would actually look at current gpus you would see why the cell suffers even intel doesn't get 100s of cores right. Face it ibms only choice is to work with gpu makers if they want to get multitude right. Like I've said before it was great for blu rays but tech has moved on. We don't use and CPUs any more also. Intel i7 is just crazy fast and they are making the adjustment to work even better by you know working with developers code instead of making some crap then forcing people to use it. Even gpu makers are way beyond Sony. If Sony wants to make a real chip they better call up nvidia also. Yet I'm sure they can beat the old cell though. Hey but amd can beat the old athlon also and that's not a good thing. Get up to speed guys. If your gonna chip chip geeks get your info right! This looks like more hype tech rather than real tech.
scissor_runner you got the job buddy!!! bubble+ well said http://www.youtube.com/watc...
In Sony we trust.
With Toshiba having abandoned the Cell and IBM not showing any interest, I wouldn't be so sure that the Cell "will prevail". Sony would have to shoulder all R&D costs. The PS3 was expensive, the PS4 would be *very* expensive.
There is no reason for the PS4 to be overly expensive. When the PS3 launched a bluray drive cost hundreds of dollars, now it's tens of dollars. 500gb Hard drives can be had for $50 retail, even less for the console manufacturers who place orders in the millions. As for the cell, because of it's architecture it's possible to just make a new cell with more PPEs and SPEs without changing much else. The R&D for that is easily an order of magnitude less than creating the cell in the first place. They may very well do more than that but it's still not on the same level as creating the cell.
Cell is a microprocessor architecture jointly developed by Sony, Sony Computer Entertainment, Toshiba, and IBM, an alliance known as "STI". The architectural design and first implementation were carried out at the STI Design Center in Austin, Texas. Sony do just fine next time around as they did this time. There smart .
Didn't they drop IBM for Dell? ...wait for it...
Sony is always putting their best foot forward when it comes to hardware but they need to focus on a smooth operating system for their next console. The XMB is nice but could still use some polishing.
Yup, I think Sony have learned the lesson. Someone from SCE talked about that and said that the hardware department put something powerful together, gave it to the software department and kinda said, 'do something with it. He mentioned that in the future they will closely work with both hardware and software departments to get the most out of the hardware. If this works out I believe that future PS consoles will be beastly. Really excited.
I love the xmb. It works great in my tv and ps3. But I guess it could load a little faster when in-game.
that would be a very stupid move.
I do recall a recent Sony article with Katou Masaru saying something about them wanting to not burn a lot of money into the next development cycle, which to me sounds like they won't be going all out on this console. Also, it sounds like most of you don't remember that IBM ended their development of the Cell architecture, so the 32 SPU variant doesn't even exist and won't. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see a PoweXCell 8i in a PS4. The most important question though, is what they do for a GPU? Do they go with something more custom made for a console, or do they just throw in what Nvidia has for the lastest and greatest, add a GB or two of RAM and call it a console?
He said that, but sometimes these guys try to throw their competitors off their tracks..Saying exactly what they're doing would give MS time to jump in and beat them - it happened with the 360. I remember before the PS3 price drop several years ago one of the head guys at Sony said it wouldn't happen.
True, but look how much money they burned on the PS3. It was in the billions. I figure they'll go out of their way to not let that happen again.
16 spu's thats a hell of alot SMP parallelized code to be dealt!! Thoose lazy PC developers will surely have a hissy fit on this one! LOL!!!!! ASMP is the future deal with it!!!! now give me a true GT7 1080p 60fps 20+ Cars! and Polygon crowds and airplanes in the skys and birds and such!!!
are you 3 really patting yourselves on the back for misconstruing the article? "developed with IBM, who was the original architect with Sony and Toshiba of the Cell processor, which has been used by both Sony and Microsoft to power their gaming processors for nearly 10 years." comprehension is key here, this is awful grammar but not once did I read that and think they were saying Microsoft used the cell processor
Sony exclusives with the cell rock. Multi-plats, not so much. I'd personally rather them go with a more traditional, albeit powerful architecture so as to ease the game making process for PS3. Just my $0.02.
@The Killer Well actually the xbox 360 cpu is a slightly modified PPE of the cell processor main cpu ....... so in a way he's half right.... Anyway I don't think cpu processors really isn't the problem for next gen and I don't think Sony will use the cell again ... I see people here saying they should use a cell with16 spu ... thats just crazy and not really needed .. its overkill .... I think sony will use a 8-10 core ARM or IBM processor clocked at @ 4.0Ghz or so .... its ture the the cell have brought out the best in the ps3 exclusives game library but it came at a heavy price that Sony hss surely learn their lesson from and also lets not forget the father of the ps is no longer with sony, Ken Kutaragi who designed the last two ps systems that guy realky love technology and was willing to try anything but he is gone now. Also while the cell have gotten easy to developer for its still no where as easy as coding for a x86 processors 10 core or a general regular processor... a 16 spu cell would run up development cost and game developers thats try to take full advantage of something like that would take forever to make game*Cough GT5* not to mention how much those games would cost for their customers. Lets look at the the fact that today games made for hight end PCs don't even take advantage 8 core processor and thats a PC that running bloat ware.... a game system don't need no more then 8 cores really and especially if they will be clocked at 4Ghz .... the real problem will be how much memory and what Gpu they will use... I hope they will use 3-4 GB of DDR3/5 memory... I think 5GB is overkill for a game system.
"What we have been told is that Sony is working on a very fast processor which is being developed with IBM, who was the original architect with Sony and Toshiba of the Cell processor, which has been used by both Sony and Microsoft to power their gaming processors for nearly 10 years." Lol wat... When has the 360 used the Cell? I think the writer means the Xenos on the 360 based on PowerPC architecture by IBM but still people might interpret it wrong. A next gen Cell makes a lot of sense as it will solve Sony's Backward Compatibility issues. Also, with the latest SDKs, and seeing how most multi-plats are now on par or even better in some cases on the PS3, it's safe to say it isn't the deemed 'Alien Technology' anymore.
the PPE that was developed for cell processing is used in x360s processor also, that might be what theyre talking about
the statement you quoted is saying sony and microsoft used ibm for the their processing needs in consoles. its not saying the cell was used in the xbox.
Microsoft got wind of Sony's project and wormed their way in and basically stole the R&D that Sony had up to that point. MS then dumped more truckloads of money on IBM's doorstep to develop their processor alongside Sony in the same facility. So yes, the PS3 and 360 use the same basic architecture for their respective Power PC Cores. I'm actually surprised that Sony would trust IBM after that to develop a new chip. How different would this generation have been if Sony could have kept their R&D secret thereby shutting MS out of the Power PC Core used on the 360?
You can disagree all you want. :) I invite you to read, "The Race For a New Game Machine: Creating the chips inside the XBox 360 and the PlayStation 3" by David Shippy and Mickie Phipps. It tells the full story of what I've mentioned above. Happy Reading!
You're right, but I wouldn't say MS "stole" the design. They paid about twice ($1 B) the amount that the R&D cost ($500 MIL).
LoL these guys do know the wii uses a power pc also lol. Also if they stole it how come ms dint use the spus? Maybe because they compared it to what ati was makIng and said it was crap? Don't know. 3 cores cost more than spus.
The reason the cell is what it is ... is simply because of IBM Sony just funded it and lmao off if you think Sony own R&D team can develope a Cpu that can match IBM R&D team ... if Sony own R&D team could make a decent cpu they wouldn't have went to IBM in the first place .... dont you remember the crappy emotion cpu/gpu in the ps2 that Sony had thrown together by themselves?
microsoft went to ibm for a chip ibm showed them the research being done on the ppc core microsoft order a triple core varient of it
doesn't matter if it doesn't have at least double the ram of ps3. have all the power you want but without more ram games will not evolve. any studio sony first party in particular will tell you that ram is always where things get cut not because the CPu or GPU can't handle it
Of course it'll have more RAM. At least four times as much, maybe eight times.