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Submitted by -Mezzo- 1735d ago | opinion piece

Which One Is Worse? RROD vs. PSN

Kotaku - At this point, after 17 days with no end in sight, it's fair to ask the question. the PlayStation Network Outage, or the Xbox 360's Red Ring of Death: Which is worse?

Let's leave aside the data breach, though it is one of the largest in history, and is the feature of this disaster that attracts so much mainstream attention. Within the gaming community, the idea that a console would be completely without its online functionality for this long is just staggering. (PS3, Tag Invalid, Xbox 360)

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TomInc  +   1735d ago | Well said
Red ring is deffos worse.. at least the PSN will come back and isnt really costing people. Red ring is a new console. Anyone who would prefer to fork out over £100 to replace a console rather than wait for multi-player on the PSN to return needs to get outside.
omi25p  +   1735d ago
Red ring is not a new console, You get a three year warrenty so if it breaks you send it off and they repair it for FREE, if they cant repair it they send you a refurbished console.
sdtarm  +   1735d ago
this is just plain stpid, both are issues but completely different, one affects you for a determined period of time but you lose nothing, you can still play your games, and you just lose and extra service for a period of time.

The other is a hardware issue, once you get your console RRoD you wont be able to access the content you paid for, you will probably lose some and you cant play your games neither, it may or may not affect you. in order to fix it you need to do an effort and wait and even after you get your new one you are in risk of getting again.

Stop being stpid ppl, ssly if this makes it to the main page this site must me renamed news for retards.
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TenSteps  +   1735d ago
Ha my friend got the red ring 2 weeks after his warranty finished therefore even though red ring doesn't mean new console it's still a problem that could result in someone having to buy a new console.

-All Heil Tman
#1.1.2 (Edited 1735d ago ) | Agree(41) | Disagree(2) | Report
Godmars290  +   1735d ago
Depending on if the reason the 360 broke-down was actually RRoD and not a few other issues at the time which MS chose not to call or include in RRoD.

And that was after MS eventually recognized RRoD while trying not to recognize it. Release or supply numbers.

They certainly weren't called before congress as things suggested RRoD went as high as 70%
b_one  +   1735d ago
i bought NEW console and dont want some used God knows how console... refurbished shit
tehpees3  +   1735d ago
RROD for sure. that breaks it down. PSN is temporary
the_best_player  +   1735d ago
Red Dot Of Death (New Version)
Fox01  +   1735d ago
Identity theft or RROD, which is worse?
gamingdroid  +   1735d ago
Although I feel they are pretty similar, the defining factor (surprisingly isn't the credit card number) is your date of birth combined with your name and address being exposed!

You got a broken hardware that is covered by warranty or a network that is down gets resurrected. In either case, at the worst you are screwed for a few hundred bucks and choose a different platform in the future.

However, your Date of Birth can be used for identity theft for the rest of your life. You can't change or retract it obviously!!!

Anyone affected by identity theft knows the burden of proof is on you, got your credit screwed up can affect your ability to get a loan, the cost of the loan, even a job opportunity (yes, credit checks sometimes happen) and set up utility services just to mention a few things.

Makes the loss of game time seem negligible.
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Vip3r  +   1735d ago
Warranty only applied to the non slim consoles. Now it's a 1 year warranty.
omi25p   1735d ago | Trolling | show
mastiffchild  +   1735d ago
Well, seeing as the same faults that result in RROD don't ALWAYS result/show as RROD you can have wrangles with MS over the warranty as well. It's not and never was watertight. Also it was the result of MS caring way more about getting a lead on Sony and making devs break exclusive deals from the PS2 days more naturally whereas, even if Sony could have done a bit more, the fact is PSN was attacked by outside influences. MS and our 360's weren't.

Dunno which is more annoying but blame wise I'd say MS were more consumer unfriendly than Sony have been. In the end, though, both are different things but I've STILL lost more online gaming time to RROD and the holiday Live outage than to PSN being down after being hacked. Whatever, both were shitty and I hope Sony gets PSN up for everyone soon as they can. It's dragging on a bit and is going to cost them a lot-but if the PSN is better afterwards and people stop being so daft can't we all be a bit happier and, you know, get back to talking about games rather than which shit smells worst?
Scyrus   1735d ago | Trolling | show
AAACE5  +   1735d ago
It's pure flamebait, and we know who the majority of posters will be an which side they will be on!
Sunhammer  +   1735d ago
RROD bricks your console.
PSN, which is only required if you wish to play online, is free and only down temporarily.

Only the hit-seeking retards at Kotaku would attempt to make such comparisons.

Gaming "journalism" at it's finest. N4G, worse by the day.
BattleAxe  +   1735d ago
Well with the PSN outage, my console will still work perfectly, so RRoD is far worse.
wsoutlaw87  +   1735d ago
what happens after 3 years? you lose you're console. RROD can happen to you more than once while hopefully this only happens once. The biggest difference however is that i can play demons souls dead space 2 and portal 2, when you get rrod you cant play a thing
somerandomdude  +   1735d ago
They aren't really compatible. rrod is a hardware problem with the 360.

The psn situation is due to a malicious attack. This is a situation that Microsoft could/can be targeted against as well. It shouldn't matter what gaming platform you prefer, as a gamer everyone should be routing for Sony to defeat these hackers. This situation is more a test as to whether a online gaming platform can succeed. If Sony fails then online gaming will fail as well, not to mention companies will take a huge step back from any form of digital distribution in general. Hackers are only defeating themselves by holding back innovation.
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Zydake  +   1735d ago
Don't want to be a negative nancy but...

One got shut down for like over a week and maybe will happen once.

While the other happens all the time.. Hmm which one's worse.. -_-

Btw Any1 up for playing Call of the Dead? I want to beat the top guy whose at 40.
Achemki  +   1735d ago
I used to work as a skip tracer, lots of fraud accounts, you're overexaggerating about the name/addy/birthday PSN thing.

Your SSN/NID# are way more important to conceal. Name&addy going out mean little. I can get all that AND someone's phone# by looking in the phone book, an online directory like Blackbook, or by calling directory assistance. I know people who have even activated cable/internet/phone services under kids' names lol. Google maps can even show me how many trees are on your front lawn. People's addys change all the time too. The addy linked to my account/card on PSN isn't even the right one. Means nothing. I can vouch for all the people I've seen approved for fraudulent loans with aliases and wrong addys. Telemarketers ever call you? Then your info is already circulating.

Your local paper publishes birthdays and obituaries every day along with full names and those of family/friends. A million people share your birthday, and probably your name too. Saying I'm Brad Pitt Dec18/1963 ain't gonna get me a credit card with a million dollar limit and a spare key to Angelina Jolie's Manhattan apartment. Try it. :D

Identity theft is a terrible thing, but other than your credit card getting out, there's nothing in this PSN breach that isn't already out there. PSN doesn't have your SSN/NID, birth certificate, passport, health card (if you're Canadian), Drivers License, banking info (if you're smart) people need to take a deep breath.
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HolyOrangeCows  +   1735d ago
"Red ring is not a new console, You get a three year warrenty so if it breaks you send it off and they repair it for FREE"
And after 3 years?
And the launch consoles, the ones with the most explosive failure rates, are WELL past 3 years.

Hardly comparable problems.
#1.1.20 (Edited 1735d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(3) | Report
Anon1974  +   1735d ago
Oh Kotaku. How low will you stoop? "Which is worse, PSN outage or Hitler? Surprisingly, we find it's very close."

Seriously, remember before Gran Turismo 5 came out, and they launched 4 negative GT5 stories in a week, about a game months from launch, and then topped it off with an obviously faked video of reported lengthy load times?

Of course the PSN outage is nothing like RROD. People are going on about "But they leaked people's BIRTHDAY's!" Are you kidding me? Aren't births a matter of public record? I put my name into google and found a family tree with my birthdate on it. I didn't put it there. Ohhh nooes! Someone is gonna steal my identity!

Seriously, the leak certainly isn't a good thing - but I went through 3 faulty Xbox's, countless hours lost talking to incompetent call center reps and had months were I couldn't play games I spent hundreds of dollars on. Contrast that with PSN's outage which has affected my gaming habits NOT AT ALL. I've been playing single player games, like I normally do, without any problems.

And if thieves want to try identity theft on me, I'm one of 35 million others who had their information taken and I know the bank laws in my country are strict enough that no one can do squat with my name, address and birthday. I need to show ID to deposit a third party cheque where I live.

My stress level at having my information hacked is zero. Thieves have probably stolen more information out of my trash over the years and I'm not about to lose one second of sleep over it.

Seriously, go online and try to apply for a credit card with just a name, phone number and birthdate. Or a mortgage. See how far you get. I just don't understand people who insist in living in fear all the time rather then getting informed.

But here's the thing, those claiming that this is some kind of massive breach that should have us all scurrying in fear, look at their posting history. Notice a pattern?

Kotaku is a joke.
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InFAMOUS1  +   1734d ago
he was saying the RROD was a new console in terms of the fact that when Xbox 360 launched it was a new console and had the issue and in a smaller way still does today... As it stands right now, the RROD issue is far greater. If the PSN ends up costing Sony billions and billions of dollars then we will talk.
jeseth  +   1734d ago
While the PSN outage is getting annoying as I can stand . . .

RROD is probably the worst consumer electronic problem I've ever seen. Failure rates as high as 50% in some tests is crazy. How a company can put a product to market with that many design flaws is unbelievable. I have co-workers that have had as many as 4 Xbox 360's. And every time it is a major inconvenience to them.

PSN being down isn't that much difference than the Xbox Live outage during the 2008 holidays that lasted for 2 weeks. RROD is/was an epidemic.
dontbhatin  +   1734d ago
yeah the 3 year warranty didnt happen until a year after the incident got big. so all the ppl who got it at launch had dead consoles after the year warranty ended and they were shit out of luck. then MS got sued a bunch of times so they settled for doing the 3 year warranty extention. so at one point, it was a new console.
Reibooi  +   1734d ago
God I hate these flamebait piles of crap. Doesn't at all shock me Kotaku came up with this crap(one of the reasons I stopped reading that site)

RROD is definitely worse. I mean come on. At one point if you bought a Xbox 360 you were almost guaranteed to have it Red Ring and that lasted for like 3 years before you could safely buy a console from MS and not worry.

The PSN issue is something that A) Wasen't Sony's fault B) At worst didn't even last for a month and C) didn't prevent you from playing all your games(yeah I know some didn't work but oh well). Really there is no comparison.
skrug  +   1734d ago

360 didnt have 3yr warranty, when it first came out.

I believe, at first it was 90 days, then after a few months it was extended to 1 year. Then a year or so later, the 3yr warranty[only of rrod].
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pixelsword  +   1734d ago

I can still play my PS3, just not online. RRoD prevents both.
L0ner   1735d ago | Spam
Solid_Snake-  +   1735d ago
identity theft or rrod. hmmmmm id have to go with rrod.
Scyrus  +   1735d ago
funny, considering no one had their identity stolen (yet)

ontop of that every psn user has 1 million$ coverage for free identity fraud soooo stop trollin
TomInc  +   1735d ago
At the moment they've yet to find someone actually affected by ID theft that hasnt lied about it for site views... So im not really viewing it, or the credit breach claims as a worry right now. Plus Sony are covering insurance, so again, no loss.
wsoutlaw87  +   1735d ago
you cant steal an identity with a name and address or else the phone book would be worth money. Don't let fear-mongering websites trick you.
jeseth  +   1734d ago
There was nothing stolen that isn't already shared between companies.

The people that think there is security beyond your SSN are just in denial. Name, Address, DOB, hell even mothers maiden names are not "safe" anymore.

People just need to be responsible and ID things on their statements as they come through.
ChrisGTR1  +   1735d ago
i think you mean RROD vs YLOD
TomInc  +   1735d ago
The article mentions RROD vs PSN.
ChrisGTR1  +   1735d ago
yea its talking about which is a worse debacle. definitely rrod is much worse. but hes comparing different things, he should compare xbox live crash in christmas 08 to psn crash of 11
a_cold_soul  +   1735d ago
Identity theft > RROD
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gapecanpie  +   1735d ago
I agree identity theft is way worst then the RROD.
dontbhatin  +   1734d ago
there has been no actual proof that there has been any identity theft. the title says rrod vs psn, not rrod vs psn identity theft.
The_Nameless_One  +   1734d ago
Was there any confirmed identity theft yet resulting from the breech? So far all I saw were some rather shady people claiming they got money charged on their accounts even after Sony said people should start monitoring them.

Seemed fishy to me that the claims started mere days after Sony declared that account information was stolen. You would think as a cyber thief you would want to use the time people had no idea of the extent of the breech.

Plus those people never really explained if thier account hacking was a result from the PSN breech. WHo knows, if they are willing to give Sony their bank account information then they could have done the same on another web site.

Seeing how I went through 5 Xbox 360 in 4 years I would give the RROD the crown. Don't forget that as Soon as Sony knew the extent of the breech they notified people while MS knowingly released defected systems into the market knowing they would fail. Also don't forget how long it took MS to even acknowledge the problem (though they never fully admitted it) and start the their extended warranty program. Remember how MS actually charged people to get the RROD fixed?
Joni-Ice  +   1735d ago
PSN being down for the hack reasons happened once. The RROD happened 4 times to me. You decide.
Apophis   1735d ago | Spam
TurismoGTR  +   1735d ago
Both.. at the moment. when PSN back on, then it's RROD.
egidem  +   1735d ago
RRoD was worse. With PSN down, I at least can play single player games. When my Xbox RRoDd, It was:
Hairy Chewie  +   1735d ago
It's like comparing AIDS and Clymidia. One's for life, the others just a pain in the ass.
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DelbertGrady  +   1734d ago
Does AIDS come with a 3 year warranty? Can I send my AIDS back to MS and get it fixed?

Are you seriously likening RROD to AIDS? lol.
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lh_swe  +   1734d ago
That was an inaccurate comaprison but still kinda funny XD
the_kutaragi_baka  +   1735d ago
another shi* of article from kotaku....

don't give hits for kotaku trolls guys.
r1sh12  +   1734d ago
too many people dont know the facts...
RROD - 3 year warranty and free repair and you get a 1 month xbox live code as an extension for inconvenience, MS will automatically transfer licenses over if you get a different console, so you dont lose anything. After you get your replacement your 3 Year warranty is extended.

Sony PSN hack, your personal details are owned by someone and can be sold because the data was not encrypted.

How is the customer affected:
Xbox RROD - 14-21 days without xbox, but a free 1 month extension code is given back, warranty is extended and xbox is sent back for free (repaired or replaced), unless its out of warranty $120

PSN hack - Personal details can be published on the net like they already have. Personal details can be sold to anyone, or Identity fraud can happen.
US customers are the only ones with ID theft insurance not anyone else in the world...[Hopefully other parts of the world get ID theft insurance because my details are now floating around on the net]
PS YLOD - not sure about the US cost, but I think its £120 (UK)if out of warranty (only 1 year warranty)

SOme people need to not get so offended
Which is worse?
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dontbhatin  +   1734d ago
nobody knows if our info has been posted on the internet nothing but rumors as far as we know. and the same as our information actually being stolen. nothing but rumors. nobody knows...... all speculation
White-Sharingan  +   1734d ago
I don't want someone else refurbished shit console. Now if they would give me a brand new console then that would be great, but it isn't the case.
skrug  +   1734d ago
you didnt mention about, sony compensating, with 1 month PS+ to everyone and extend PS+ to people the same amount of down time, in addition to downloadable games/content.

and also only some stuff are not encrypted, CC are encrypted, passwords are hashed.
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Clarence  +   1734d ago
Well seeing as the PSN outage will not cost me any money and I only have to wait for it to come back online.

RROD you either going to spend money for a new console or your going to wait for a refurbeshed console to come in the mail.

RROD is the worse
Solidus187-SCMilk  +   1734d ago
WHO CARES. They are totally different, and neither one is good for gamers or the companies
looking for hits I assume, looks like it worked :(

EDIT- The worst would be if you own PS3 and 360 and your 360 got RRoD while the PSN was Down. And then you started to get strange charges on your CC and you 360 got lost in the mail. And if the PSN was down for 3 more weeks and the day your 360 is delivered the mailman leaves it by your door, but it rains and floods you porch and gets it all wet. And then PSN comes back up but your dog chewed off the left analogue stick on your only PS3 controller while you were at work.
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Rage_S90   1735d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(4)
Kran  +   1735d ago

With the PSN being down, theres a bunch of SP stuff you could be doing.

With RROD, you can't do absolutely anything. With the Slim though, its less likely but it still has its problems.
Peaceful_Jelly  +   1735d ago
and u need to ask?
-Mezzo-  +   1735d ago
For the consumer both are Bad, but i will get the PSN back without any extra cost. While i will have to shell out another $300 if i get an RROD.
Loner   1735d ago | Immature | show | Replies(1)
v1c1ous  +   1735d ago
when my xbox rrod, MS paid for everything and i got a brand new xbox free of charge.

when my ps3 YLOD, i had to pay sony $100. which is worse....
wedgie  +   1735d ago
I believe you for that, but not really the issue that is being discussed here...
rob6021  +   1735d ago
because one company had to pack on a full 3 year warranty to avoid a class action lawsuit; where as the other one didn't. and they only did for a specific flaw that they were owning up to - they didn't warranty your system is the drive stopped reading disks.
birdy966   1735d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(2)
MintBerryCrunch  +   1735d ago
a broken console in RROD to a console with no online play at the moment

this doesnt stop me from playing GT5, RDR along with all the ps 1 classics at the moment
SonyNGP  +   1735d ago

Of course RRoD is worse. You can still use your PS3 when PSN is down!
ash_divine  +   1735d ago
(Sighs)... it was only a matter of time. To answer the question, that really depends on how long PSN stays down.
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ZBlacktt  +   1735d ago
Lets see here. One you can still play games every single day and earn trophies. The other you can't play anything at all. As the console is shipped out. For millions, that happened 3 and 4 times.
slugg  +   1735d ago
Well, I think
The PSN thing could be way worse if a bunch of subscribers start getting strange charges on their stolen credit cards.
wedgie  +   1735d ago
IF that happens, then I agree. However, as I see it at this very moment (where I don't think any credit cards have really been stolen, or if so only a handful (sorry, don't really know the numbers)) then RROD is worse for many of the reasons others have already mentioned.

If widespread credit card theft occurs, however, then we are talking a much bigger dilemma than just a network being down.
kuge456  +   1735d ago
Epic fail by MS itself.
Are they innocent?
AdmiralSnake  +   1735d ago
Stupid article flamebait... You can't compare a hardware failure with a network issue wtf...
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Esena  +   1735d ago
Yeah, I mean anyone to say PSN is worse is...well, stupid. Both the RROD and PSN are terrible. But one eliminates all gaming, while the other only eliminates online gaming. I've been playing Tiger Woods 12, Clash of Heroes, and Portal 2 (SP). I actually would have been doing the same thing if PSN is up, except for Portal 2 co-op.

Also... this is under the assumption Sony fixes this issue relatively soon.
Killman  +   1735d ago
Well, considering that I am submitting this comment with my PS3, I say that RROD is far worse and this question is stupid.
Jazz4108  +   1734d ago
I would have to agree rrod is worse. I'm very glad in my time with a 360 its never happened. I have an original launch console and a 1 year old slim that both get heavy use and a ps3 that's been replaced 3 times and one was for ylod so I'm gping to be a little hard on sony but no diffrent if my ms console dies which it could. I don't woory about my ms slim as reports have shown it as reliable or more reliable then the ps3 slim but my launch console is another story but after almost 6 years it does not really owe me. I do have to give this one to rrod though as psn will be back up better then ever and soon.
acemonkey  +   1735d ago
wtf is up with theres stupid ass writers lately?
Rybakov  +   1735d ago

ive gone through 3x as many PlayStation as i have xbox's they only time i got a new xbox was to upgrade but my friends who i either sold or gave my old console to still play and one of them is from launch....but leave it to sony to cover things up like the beginning of the psn hack
GOODKyle  +   1735d ago
Kotaku, I used to respect you but with all these articles in such a short span on the've become the gaming version of FOX News in my eyes.
Raendom  +   1734d ago
Which One Is Worse? Kotaku vs. IGN.

loololol. I'd love if GameSpot did that article.
ryan_s  +   1734d ago
you are totally right i hated kotaku when they banned me from commenting on their site just because i was expressing my mind
i mean who would make an article about a toilet seat
Game0N  +   1735d ago
for those brainless idiots saying that RROD is not as bad because it's free replacements under warranty also have to factor in the insanely amount of time it takes for you to receive a cheap refurbished one thats probably gonna break down in a couple weeks. When i used to game on xbox i got the red ring 3 times and each time i sent it back, it took a month for me to get back and it was REFURBISHED. PSN is just a service issue, not a CONSOLE issue, the two aren't even in the same ballpark so those saying otherwise need to wake up and smell the latte!
user2285916   1735d ago | Spam
meganick  +   1735d ago
Is anyone seriously asking this question? With the red ring, your 360 is dead, meaning you can't do anything on it at all forever. With the PSN issue, you just don't have access to online gaming for a little while. How are those two issues even remotely comparable?
despair  +   1735d ago
RROD duhh...PSN cannot play games online...RROD cannot play there even a point to asking other than flamebait?
mrcapcom  +   1735d ago
agree apart from prod only effects that one user not the entire network
BushLitter  +   1735d ago
What a silly little question...

RROD is worse for Xbox gamers - coz they don't get to play games
PSN is worse for PS gamers - coz the don't get to play MP
Neko_Mega  +   1735d ago
I'll stay with my PS3, I have had seven 360's and only now I got one that seems to last longer then the others.

Problem is that I don't play it really anymore because I got sick off having it quit on me or something else.
DigitalRaptor  +   1735d ago
From a company standpoint, RROD is far worse, since Microsoft most likely knew of the problem and decided to launch the 360, rather than waiting and building a more reliable machine. Not only this, but they flat-out denied the problem until they faced lawsuits, and at this point, they extended the warranty to 3 years. Until around last year the 360 (when they launched the slim) the 360 was an unreliable POS, hardware-wise.

With the PSN, Sony have managed to keep their network secure for around 4 years, until the master key was stolen/leaked and hackers found a way in. All networks have their vunerabilities, and PSN just wasn't as secure as Sony thought. Consumers aren't losing any money with the PSN problem. It's just an unfortunate incident.

Sony has definitely learned the errors of their ways, and are proving it by re-building a much more secure network and offering their consumers free protection against identity theft. They will have to earn customers' trust, but seem to be going about it the right way.

Will Microsoft have learned from their errors of shipping unreliable hardware? Who knows?
Bzone24  +   1735d ago
I've only got a comment for one of your points. You wonder if Microsoft learned from the error of their ways shipping unreliable hardware, but they are shipping the newest Xbox model that is far more reliable and you rarely hear of problems out of it.

You say Sony has learned the error of their ways even though they still haven't brought back PSN for you even to see if it is more secure???
DigitalRaptor  +   1735d ago
Microsoft have only manufactured and released a steady and mostly reliable SKU after 5-6 years. That is far too late as far as I'm concerned. Improving your hardware and releasing a slimline version is a natural progression, and Microsoft have done that but VERY slowly. When you consider how widespread and serious the RROD problem is, as a company you shouldn't take 5 years to sort out that problem and continue passing it off to the consumer. They've done nothing to gain my respect as a company.

The situation with Sony is a serious one in regards to people trusting them again, but Sony have outlined clearly what they are in the process of doing. The PSN is not available because Sony is treating this with the utmost diligence, and they wouldn't knowingly bring a potentially unsafe network back online. It's not hard to see Sony is learning from the mistakes that were made, because they are in the direct process of that as we speak!
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Bzone24  +   1734d ago
You aren't getting the point. Microsoft did eventually get it right regardless of how long it took.

You don't know if sony has learned from their mistakes. You are just hopeful. Of coarse they won't knowingly bring a potentially unsafe network back online, but they didn't know it was unsafe to begin with. How are you so sure that they've learned from this? They are being forced to fix things right now because of the breach, because they have to, not because they learned something. It remains to be seen whether or not they've learned something and keep PSN secure.
leogets  +   1735d ago
rrod means you have a 360 so thas way worse lmao.. jk guys. joking aside the rrod is worse cos that means u have no console to use at all.obviously what a silly article
wsoutlaw87  +   1735d ago
lol that was a little funny
th3_d3an  +   1735d ago
RROD PERIOD! had it happen to me 3 times thats 3 times too many the last one being right out of the box brand fcking new! WTF! sorry it rrod not even close.
Optical_Matrix  +   1735d ago
Talking about brewing up a shit storm. Keep it classy Kotaku, jesus christ
Bimkoblerutso  +   1735d ago
Seriously, wtf Kotaku? This is getting ridiculous. Well, that's not true. Your articles have been ridiculous since this whole thing started.
Harelgur  +   1735d ago
PSN will be back, my dead xbox wont.
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