NowGamer: id Software's legendary programmer John Carmack has lauded the current-gen consoles, but admits he favours Microsoft's hardware...
I'm getting some popcorn for this one. "before the fanboys explode - how is this any diffrent from Kojima preffering the PS3 over the 360?" Good point. All devs have their preferences and opinions on whats "better". I don't see a problem with this...but obviously the people on this site that I will refer to as "The Others" will no doubt have a problem with this statement.
If people read it, it sounds like he favors the 360 over it's architectures, since he added that with he sega and PS2 it was a bit clunky and not that well to work with. Completely understandable though and very true. That is why majority of third party devs have so much trouble with the PS3 in the past, most of them have just gotten around to finally understanding it. So he is picking something more easier to work with.
360 is easier to work with. But, when developpers work hard you have games like GoW III, Killzone 2/3, InFamous 2 or Uncharted 2/3 that looks better than anything on the 360.
@Starhawk Have you seen Rage? For an open world game it looks incredible. @Below seriously? wtf i thought it was this whole time :(, i don't know much about the game but that was one of the thing i thought it was. http://scrawlfx.com/2009/07... from what i am reading on the net, it is a type of open world just not like GTA, Fallout ect, and more of Ocarina of Time open world where you can travel freely but you are still being guided once you enter places. So its a mix of the two? Linear in some parts and open world in others
@Nitrowolf2 RAGE is not an open world game. edit: I don't know that happend but now it's not. There is no free roaming and the roads are quite linear. "So its a mix of the two? Linear in some parts and open world in others" Probably.
Carmack has a Genius level I.Q and his experience with programming environments is undisputed. I do not think its much of a surprise he prefers 360's programming environment, it has always been dev friendly from day one unlike PS3. Secondly just a few days ago he admitted that DirectX now has the edge, coming from him as one of the biggest promotors of the OpenGL standard. Even though he admits DirectX is now better, he STILL prefers to work in OpenGL regardless. http://www.pcr-online.biz/n... Its just preference, don't argue over it. I can imagine him very much enjoying 360's D3D environment for ease of use and loving PS3 for using OpenGL. Hence talking about how there is no better time to be a developer!
I don't mind if he favors 360 over PS3, I mean it's his opinion, but I will mind if Rage does not end up being equal on both platforms especially on the PS3.
This means nothing until Rage is released. Besides, how much programming do you think this guy actually does? He draws out the concepts then hands the work off to the "underlings".
I don't mind that he favours the 360, I just hope he doesn't make shitty PS3 versions for whatever game they make.
when Carmack starts talkin about preferring one console over another It just kinda hits you how far he's fallen.
Programming for the 360 isn't hard because it's windows with everything removed bar directx so programming is well setup for it. On the PS3 you need to make everything all the GFX drivers handlers etc. It's not that the PS3 is hard to dev for it just a case of some people not wanting to make all their own drivers and handlers and other back ground stuff. Sony have a database with code you can grab stuff from but still you would need to alter it to make stuff work the way you need it to. So it's quite understandable why PC game devs will prefer the 360 and say it's easier to make stuff for because you don't need to waste extra time on stuff.
@inveni0 I believe he's the head programmer at ID and he did make the whole last Quake engine by himself. I think he spent 4-5 hours doing it and then has other people fill the world and tweak things as needed. Just one of those people who can say we need a new engine to do this stuff has an idea then walks away and comes back an hour later with a complete engine that does what is required and for other people they are stuck for weeks just doing the basic type engines.
Would like to see them "work hard" on the 360 then.
I get devs loving how easy the 360 is but a comment like this is why sales diminish. Go ahead and cut your profits out Carmack. That's smart.
Exactly. A PC developer is going to like something he is familar with over anything else. ID oly makes a game here and there, so they dont exactly get hands on experience all the time with everything. 360 is similar to PC architecture, thus they understand it a bit more. Meanwhile sony wanted to do something new. And we all know doing something new is what advances technology.
At Pax, the developers told us it was open world but guided at the same time. IE: you can go wherever you want but the story is going to progress you along a certain path so you will eventually need to follow it.
Being a PC guy, I'm pretty sure he would prefer the 360 over PS3, since their structures are pretty much the same. I bet he's complaining because they're having a hard time porting to the PS3. Well Carmack, that's what happens when you develop for PC/360 and try to port to PS3. You wouldn't have had much of a problem if PS3 was the lead platform. But we can't expect that from a PC/360 guy, can we. Oh well.
Why disagree with my previous post? They should turn the "disagree" button to "dislike".  Ok so maybe the part about "having a hard time porting to PS3" was opinion. But I just think he's trying to save-face in advance. Just a theory.
I think the only take you should get out of this is the fact that the Xbox 360 is designed and manufactured by a software company, but not only any software company. Most likely the most important software company existing today. With that in mind, it makes sense that a programmer would prefer the architecture of the Xbox 360. The system is built around a programmers mindset! If you look at it's company's strength you see how this is reflect in their design of the console: Xbox 360 -> Very developer friendly PS3 -> Great hardware quality Nintendo -> Fun products with wide appeal Look at each companies history, it exactly matches the freaken product!
Off topic: Mods just took out a whole buncha bubbles, lol! On topic: iD isn't what it use to be. Their last game, Doom 3, wasn't technical in any way. It wasn't groundbreaking or even evolutionary so I'm not expecting much from Rage either on PC, PS3, or the 360.
@ Nitro It's all about gameplay pussy.
I'm just going to leave these words here... feel free to read them.
Well to me it just show's a lack of wanting to learn something new! It's like an old person saying, a pen and paper is better than writing on a pc because i just have to put pen to paper to start writing, but on a pc i've gotta figure out how to turn it on, how to open the programme, how to type, etc etc etc... It's a pretty lazy attitude and an unwillingness to learn, my 2 cents anyway.
Honestly, i thought his comments implied a favorable view of the ps3. we need to note a difference between the wording "except" and "except MAYBE"... Basically if i said bob barker is the most popular person in the world except Mario... then Mario is definitely more popular in my opinion.. If i say, however, that Mario is the most popular person in the world except maybe elvis presley... Here i am saying I think Mario could be the most popular and the only one who could potentially challenge that claim would be elvis presley. In general the dominant one would be the first one listed not the last... since carmack was talking specifically about the ps3, you could interpret it as more of an equality rather than giving an edge to the ps3 though. anyway, dropping one word can completely change the meaning of any statement. Dropping such a key word out of the title was poor journalism. Its funny... Carmack is actually praising the ps3 based on the comments quoted.. It sounds like in the interview someone was trying to get him to rip on the ps3, hence the comment saying that just because he favors the 360 doesn't mean he has anything negative to say about the ps3. I think some people are off on the comment about the ps2 and sega system... the implication is that Both the Ps3 and the X360 are better to work with than previous generations. He isn't hating on either console.. he is praising this generation of consoles for being much easier to work with than previous ones because they both actually had a design beforehand. preference is about what is best for you, not about what is best overall. John Carmack, hideo kojima, gabe newell, david jaffe, or any other single person out there is not going to definitively decide which console is better due to their dizzying intellect or wisdom.. If a console is remarkably better than another, it will be self evident. we won't need someone like Carmack to make the call. I think in that looking at what is being produced on each console each has their strengths and you can't currently say one is definitively better than the other. All i can say is my preference is toward the ps3 currently due to my gaming habits and preferences. ultimately, I would think it doesn't matter to the end consumers about the programming complexity... what matters is the finished product.. and whether we as end users are satisfied with it.
Another article taken out of context. And the 360 fanboys ate it up.
Before the fanboys explode - how is this any diffrent from Kojima preferring the PS3 over the 360? Please explain before you disagree.
There is no real difference.There is one though,John Carmack is regarded as best tech wizard to grace foot on planet earth and Kojima is one of the best game designers and producers to do the same. If you wanna ask about programming side of things safest bet is Carmack,about design its the same with Kojima.
What about the difference that Kojoma's game has been out or some time versus still waiting for Carmack's? not really trying to start anything, but honestly, how long have we been waiting on this game? What if like Doom 3 it doesn't deliver yet it takes the gaming community a few months to accept this.
What if you had a game that had Carmack visuals , Kojima storyline, Kaz vechiles, DICE destruction/online and COD advertising.
Godmar the fact that many will not use kojimas engine or his story telling style puts him way belowe carmack. I'd tech 5 will be used on many many million sellers and offer even Kojima the chance to make a better game. Carmack is no fanboy. He is very logical and he was a driving force behind shaders and other things that actualy define HD console gaming. The cell is dead even the Marvell chip in the ngp is better. The ps3 is like buying a spaceshuttle and having to make your own fuel injector. It's not really a complete system even with all the extra help. It's like this because of bad design descessions. It's an A for effort but it is by no means the best. Yet it's a great example of brand loyalty if any thing. I've never seen so many people feel bad for a fallen Corp.
@Blad2star: 1) Just to note: Carmack didn't just say he the X360 is a "personal preference" - he said that it is simply undeniably better. How better? we don't know from this interview, but we heard about it in the past (it was mostly about architecture, memory) 2) Kojima preference of the PS3 is somewhat doubted. He mentioned that it is going to be the best (with his movie theatre VS home cinema comparison), but that was back in 2006 when he mostly had theoretical specs of the PS3 that Sony promised (and no hands on experience with the Xbox 360): http://ps3.ign.com/articles... But later in 2008 he said the following: "I remember saying three years ago that we wanted to create something revolutionary, but in reality we couldn't really do that because of the CPU. We're using the Cell engine to its limit, actually. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing the PS3 machine, it's just that we weren't really aware of what the full-spec PS3 offered - we were creating something we couldn't entirely see." http://www.computerandvideo... So basically Kojima's preference of the PS3 was based on theoretical specs that Sony promised but eventually didn't deliver. Sony simply lied to him, like they lied to all of us, that the PS3 is going to be some kind of futuristic beast capable of things that nothing will match in the coming two decades. Some fanboys (many of them concentrated here) still believe these lies (Ignoring the fact that even the lead architect behind the Cell in IBM mentioned that the X360 and PS3 processor are about equal), but Kojima sobered up quite some time ago. 3) Carmack is a tech guy, Kojima is a designer. Designer design, tech guys write code. When it comes to artistic vision I will prefer to listen to a designer, but when it comes to tech I will prefer to listen to a coder. And Carmack is probably one of the most legendary coders in the business - Back then he actually downplayed the conveniences and development ease that came with C++ when coding Quake, and instead opted for just C because if provided a small performance gain when coding "down to the metal". 4) Just to refute some other delusional claims that some people here make: Carmack does not prefer the X360 because "he comes from the PC world and the X360 has the same architecture" because: A) The Xbox 360 and the PS3 both share the IBM PowerPC architecture, and have nothing to do with the Intel X86 architecture that we have on common PCs B) When it comes to Carmack, you can't even make the claim that he prefers the X360 because it uses DirectX implementation. The guy is one of the biggest and strongest supporters in the industry of the competing OpenGL standard, and the PS3 happens to implement OpenGL... tl;dr: 1) Carmack = developer. Kojima = designer. 2) Carmack comment = 2011. Kojima comment = 2006. 3) Kojima seem to have changed his mind in 2008. 3) Carmack does not have any X360 architecture "experience bias".
Carmack's independent, Kojima's tied to ps3 by legacy. There.
its because the 360 al;ows them to keep doing what they were doing in the past. The ps3 is more complicated and these devs dont like having to learn anything new even if it gets you better results. Looks like another case of a dev wanting to be lazy and not learn anything new. You would think in the tech industry they would want things to improve and get better but if its at a cost of learning something new they dont want progress.
Yup. The name Carmack is synonymous with lazyness and half-assedry. =) (Obvious sarcasm is obvious, right?)
Dude its carmack... wtf are you talkign about him being lazy and not wanting to learn new things... this is probably the most absurd thing i have ever read on N4G... and thats saying something.
so saying he's wrong is LOL and besides the only PS3 exclusive that actually looked really good on PS3 is Uncharted 2 the rest of the PS3 exclusives aren't very impressive and 90% of Multiplatforms are still better on the 360
I haven't played KZ3 so to me UC2 is still the best looking game on consoles that I can go to the store and buy then play...
I don't care what Carmack says, Kojima tells the truth, even when he's lying.
Personally, Uncharted 2 is still the best looking game on the PS3. The game just gets its design right in so many ways. It has a very good balance of lighting, texture detail, good modeling, animation, and effects. Killzone 3 in some ways is a step back from Killzone 2. The aliasing is worse and some things have been paired back, such as the muzzle flash that used to cast dynamic shadows and now doesn't. Still a fantastic looking game, though. I simply think Uncharted 2 looks better. Sony has some great developers under their belt, but when an engine is done right on the 360 it can shine too. Gears of War 3, for example, looks amazing.
The Cell was designed to support the blu-ray movie format not gaming, this is why it's so hard to develop for. Sony hasn't changed the way processors are built, they simply had a processor built to support the hardware and business plan they made with the PS3. This is why the PS3 has gotten so much hatred from developers over the years.
Hideo Kojima is no where compared to John Carmack. John Carmack is legend. He invented the ideology of GPU which your seeing today. He made the worlds first 3d game. He is the first to make full 3d engine. Majority of game engines today are modified game engine of his.You see so many devs with new engine because he has open sourced all his engines when he releases a new game its just countless. Killzone engine itself is a superset of Quake 3. Every developer will bow down in front of John Carmack when it comes to tech. Every developer complained of Ps3 right from its launch and have made bad ports. But when first time John Carmack made 60fps preview of Rage people got blown away of how great it looks and runs on Ps3. Not only that John Carmack has said Ps3 version will look better than 360 coz of blu-ray limit of having high res textures when microsoft didn't allow them to add more than two discs for a single game in demand for more money to be given to Microsoft. If someone is thinking he is bashing can just fk off. He said NGP will a gen ahead even any hardware is similar to it. John Carmack till today has made games for every PS hardware and made it look as the best version by making the most optimized engine. i remember playing 4 player split screen Quake 2 for the first time in Ps1 until then it was theatrically impossible
He's definitely a legend and he's entitled to his opinion. Not sure why people are going crazy over it.
Kojima brought mature and well-paced storytelling packed with amazing gameplay, memorable characters and soundtracks into games before in which game developers does now.
dude plz don't say things you don't know the first who made a 3d game it was David Braben not john Carmack
Pretty sure Kojima or Carmack could give a fuck what random people rank them
Kojima is also a legend, and so is Miyamoto. To say anything otherwise would be to disrespect the industry itself, or to show your immaturity. Kojima and Carmack are two different people with clear expertise in different fields. They are both visionaries. They're visions are just different.
Does Kojima do programming? I thought he's a game designer, no? Carmack, on the other hand, is a programming genius. They are legends on different platforms.
@meetajhu Leonardo Da Vinci did not invent the paint brush, but he did paint the Mona Lisa.
Nitrowolf2 it was becuase of 360 disc space it still dose have 2 semi open world environments ( was 6 ) http://www.1up.com/news/rag...
@Logicwins Why would you need some popcorn, and why would anyone explode. He says he prefers the 360. Everyone has a preference. And coming from a PC background Carmack should prefer the 360 since it's so similar. There was nothing wrong with his comment. He says he likes the PS3 as well, and on numerous occasions he's said the PS3 is the most powerful console. So what's to get upset about?
It's pretty obvious why Logigwins said what he said. Your explanation is logical, but what does that have to do with N4G.
He has never said the PS3 is the most powerful console in the way you might conceive it. If you had any technical background and read his comments it is pretty easy to see that he believes the 360 is actually 'functionally' more powerful. He has only said that the PS3's CPU is 'theoretically' more powerful, but is quick to point out that there is a big difference between 'theoretical performance' and what you can actually achieve in the real world. Here are some quotes from an interview he did with 1UP. http://gamevideos.1up.com/v... "...the only thing Sony has going for them over the 360, is the data storage on the blu-ray..." "...the only real advantage that the PS3 has over the 360, from our point of view, is the extra space." "Yeah, I mean that's our position that it's almost unequivocal across the board that the 360 is a better platform to develop for. When you get down into actual comparisons on the hardware performance characteristics, it's not quite an apples to apples comparison. On almost anything on the strictly graphical side, in terms of pushing vertexes and triangles on there, the 360 hardware is superior to the PS3's RSX on there." "On the processing side it's a little bit more complicated, where the main processor on the PS3 is roughly equivalent to one of the three processors on the 360. But then you wind up saying, you have to compare two other symmetric processors on the 360 versus the eight quirky cell processors. ...in theory you can do a lot more, but that's where you come to the difference between theory and practice. And given an infinite amount of development time on there [development time is never infinite], you can craft a program that's gonna work more efficiently on the cells there than on two additional processors on the 360. But given a finite amount of development time, it's much-much easier to get things working well on the 360 than it is on the PS3. And that's pretty much the case across the board." "And the other major difference is the memory partitioning. Where they're both 512mb machines, but on the PS3 it's partitioned into 256mb of video and 256mb of main. And one of the biggest things that Sony does poorly for developers is their system stuff sucks up a lot more resources than it does, than Microsoft's does on the 360. So memory is much more painful on the PS3. We spend a lot more time trying to crunch down the memory for that..." "...and we're trying to say pretty plainly that this [blu-ray storage] is going to be the one thing that the PS3 version is gonna be better at, and in fact it's almost the worst sort of thing for Microsoft there because we are having to work twice as hard on the PS3 to bring it up to spec. But in the end it's going to be 60fps game, and it's going to wind up looking just like the 360, we just had to sweat lot more for it."
He never said that the 360 is better than ps3. He knows that Sony created a beast. He just likes to work on the 360 because it's easier.
Well that's just not true at all. He CLEARLY says that the Xbox 360 is BETTER. He never says he likes to work on 360 cause it's easier, people are just assuming that's why in his opinion he thinks the Xbox 360 is better. You can't just say 'he never said' something when he definitely 100% did say that.
"The PS3 is still far and away better than anything else that’s ever been made... except maybe the 360," He CLEARLY did not say the 360 was better than the PS3. Learn to read. First he said 'maybe'. I'll let you look the definition of that one up yourself. Second, he clearly didn't state the 360 was better. Possibly they're equal? He then goes on to state: “Because I do favour the 360, it doesn't mean I have anything all that negative to say about the PS3” Maybe you want to look up favour while you're at it?
Carmack is a PC developer fist and foremost. So, of course he'd like the 360 over the PS3. He had the same position during the PSone, PS2 days. Yawn...PC dev like 360, which shares similar PC architecture design? DUH!
since its easier to develop for, and its like a low level PC i don't have a problem with what he said. its his opinion.
is id software the guys who made wolfenstein
As long as Rage still comes out on PS3, he can like 3DO best for all I care. Besides, it sounds like he likes them both a lot, anyway.
did he just compare himself to kojima ??? WHO IS THIS GUY ???
/facepalm Please tell me that was sarcasm, and that you can't really be that dense?
New gamer is new.
rage is going to look so fucking ugly on the ps3 isnt it. i was seriously looking forward to it aswell.
@LOGICWINS Kojima never bad mouthed the 360 thats how its different and Carmack as put flame to this console war and thats what i really dont like
@LOGICWINS I gotta give you that one...
@Brosy: You are bad at lying, where and when did Sony say the Cell was designed for bluray movies? WHEN??? Also, developpers were lazy, if Uncharted 2 can be finished in 18 months and have one of the best looking graphics. Then it says something about the multiplatform devs being lazy and limited by the 360 hardware. Also, I dunno if you're old enough to know this but PS2 was ALSO hard to develop for back in the day, but as time passed, devs started to get more experience on it and thus release even more better looking games. Thats part of Sony's 10 year life span for their consoles.