Submitted by Nineball2112 1761d ago | news

Valve disses Microsoft, Xbox 360 with $6.79 Left 4 Dead 2

The latest content for Left 4 Dead 2 has launched on the Xbox 360. Called "The Sacrifice," the levels show what happened before "The Passing," and is played from the point of view of the Left 4 Dead survivors. On the Xbox 360, it's also 560 Microsoft points, or $7. On the PC it's free, but Valve didn't think that was enough of a hint about their feelings for Microsoft's DLC policies. (Left 4 Dead 2: The Sacrifice, PC, Xbox 360)

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ingiomar   1761d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(22)
TheObserver  +   1761d ago
Well.... you guys enjoy paying for Facebook, lastfm, P2P, and free stuff like that. Have fun.
antz1104  +   1761d ago
Way to turn it on the gamers. I forgot its our fault that microsoft is greedy. I'll enjoy playing L4D2, and I don't care that I had to pay for the dlc. It sucks, but I get to play The Sacrifice nonetheless. (which is awesome btw)

Valve is a great company, I'm glad they spoke out and then basically spit at MS. Maybe they'll start listening to their community now.
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8-bit  +   1761d ago
I am just waiting for the PS3 version of L4D2 to release with all of the DLC included.
JackBNimble  +   1761d ago
That's why MS get's away with this, because people like you will buy it anyway and say you don't care.

Ya , blame it on the gamers when you're this dumb.
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antz1104  +   1761d ago
@ JackBNimble;

So I'm supposed to go out and get either a good gaming computer or a PS3 b/c I don't agree w/ MS buisness practices? Or I could just shell out $7, bite the bullet, and get to play a great dlc for a few months.

Not all of us have our parents buying us systems junior.
JackBNimble  +   1761d ago
I think you missed the point. If you continue to support the guy who keeps sticking it to you then don't expect it to ever change.

"Not all of us have our parents buying us systems junior".... that made me laugh, I am the "parent".
moparful99  +   1761d ago
Lets see I've paid for every bit of my gaming gear since the ps2 including my $600 launch model 60 gig ps3.. So yes you do have a choice if its "YOUR MONEY" Microsoft charges for everything because they know people like you will pay for it pure and simple.. Yet you say you arent going to forgo playing just because microsoft unfairly charges you.. DOnt you see the correlation, they know you will pay so they charge.. I dont know how many times I can say it but you probably wont change your opinion.. Just like xbox live they've made more then enough money to justify the cost but instead of reducing the cost they raise it. Why is that? BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL STILL PAY FOR IT! Have you realized the theme? I hope so for your sake..
Kurt Russell  +   1761d ago
I think I'll give this DLC a miss :(
Karum  +   1761d ago
L4D2 isn't much of a resource hog tbh. The graphics in their games are hardly amazing either, they certainly look good but they aren't by any means jaw dropping.

You can run a lot of Valve games pretty well with an average PC.

My PC is approaching 4 years old and can play it just fine, the speccs of my PC were higher end when I got it brand new back then but ~4 years in the PC world is quite outdated.

Personally though I got L4D2 on PC instead of 360 simply because I prefer the KB&M control scheme for FPS...only console FPS I play are console exclusives like KZ, Gears 2/3, Halo, Resistance etc.
bobrea  +   1761d ago
I'm going to have to disgree with antz here. JackBNimble has it right. Don't expect anything to change if you keep buying Microsoft's overpriced shit. L4D has pretty low system requirements. And there's always that whole saving your money thing...
SephireX  +   1760d ago
Maybe the dlc is worth more to ant than M$ changing their practices? He's only one person. Many people would have to refuse buying the dlc to make a difference and that won't happen, unless a collective movement is formed somehow. I don't agree with M$'s pricing but we can't boycott everything with an unfair price. If he's happy to pay for the dlc, where's the problem? I just wonder if the PS3 had the same policy, would you even comment?
YoshiMeetsU   1761d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(4)
skyblue14213  +   1761d ago
You took the words right out of my mouth.
moparful99  +   1761d ago
Lol did you notice how he whent back and edited his comment? Now the entire part I replied to is gone... Ohh well at least he learned from his mistake. Well either that or he didnt like the negative feedback he was getting from everyone..

But back on topic. Yes there are always people that will pay for content like this. It's an intrensic part of the process but if microsoft took heed to what companies like sony are doing or the Lord of the rings online game are doing then maybe their fanbase would explode.. There was an article that stated the lord of the rings game increased its revenue by 2X since adopting a free to play model.. Its worked wonders for valve, sony, and countless others.. Look at facebook those games are free to play but they offer advantages for paying and they are raking in cash because of it...
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SkylineR  +   1761d ago
I love how all you PS3 fanboys are saying Valve is dissing the 360 because they're charging gamers for DLC.
If anyone out there has Steam, then you'll know that Valve's service is great in both pricing and for free DLC. That's how Valve works. If it was up to them I'm sure the L4D DLC would be free on Live, but MS possibly had a say about it being free. Who knows, but the fact is that 360 owners get to ACTUALLY play and enjoy both L4D games and the DLC, at what's considered a bargain in comparison to, say, Modern Warfare 2's Map Packs. $5 is hardly breaking the bank. If it is, get a job.

In the end the DLC on 360 is optional. Valve isn't dissing anyone.

360 owners; go back and enjoy playing the game.

PS3 owners; keep twiddling your thumbs and holding your breath for a version on your console.

I'm just glad I have access to Steam, Live and PSN. xD
moparful99  +   1761d ago
For the record not a single person has shed negativity upon valve for this.. We can all clearly see that its microsofts rigid and closed xbl platform that is the cause for the pricing.. Microsoft is the ones who force the price premium not valve.. But of course you twisted this to fit some misguided agenda.. You claim to have all 3 but you single out ps3 users.. Am I sensing some bias there?
SkylineR  +   1761d ago

Not at all.
The price is obviously MS's doing and you can't do anything about it.
What I was trying to convey is that the article gets the same anti-360 reactions again that's the norm on this site all due them charging a few bucks.
Who honestly cares?
If people want to buy it and play it, good on them. Least they're enjoying what Valve has to offer as opposed to complaining about it's price. But on N4G, omg, you can't have such an article without the constant fanboyism.

The truth is PS3 doesn't have L4D at all. Period. 360 owners do, and it's their prerogative wether they get it or not, free or otherwise.

And that's another thing. Despite people saying they own both consoles or whatever on this site, it's never good enough if you have anything "anti PS3" to say.
moparful99  +   1760d ago
Dont sit here and act like like 360 owners are thrilled about the content costing money.. Valve has always supported their games with free dlc and to for microsoft to force 360 players to pay for what others get free is just stubborn and a slap in the face... Microsoft should allow valve and all other devs determine pricing for their own content but of course microsoft ONLY cares about money not their users....
vhero  +   1761d ago
New we are starting to see why Gabe had a change of heart and has finally starting to support Sony after all this time..
MASTER_RAIDEN  +   1761d ago
lol and thats the exact reason why valve gave up on the 360.
"have fun paying for (insert 9,000,000 things here), 360 users."
finally an MS lapdog is is realizing that it isnt ok to nickle and dime users for everything they can think of. i just kind of wish valve had a decent understanding of the ps3s coding and whatnot to begin with so they could have noticed what else it has to offer.

cant really blame them though. at the time the ps3 just had weird ass coding AND valve was having all their success on pc.
its all good valve! just as long as you make left 4 ps3 happen ;-)
pat_11_5  +   1760d ago
I've been a member of Xbox Live for 5 years, since I started subscribing I've always been very satisfied with what I'm getting for my money. $59.99 a year really isn't that huge a deal. Also, all my friends own an Xbox, we all have live so it's the logical choice unless I want to game alone.

Sure it would be great if it was free but you get what you pay for. Live is vastly superior to Sony's PlayStation Network in almost ever feasible way imaginable.

I agree Microsoft is greedy, dlc costs to much and it sucks that companies have to follow m$'s arbitrary price points. But what does that have to do with the price of Xbox Live? I pay for live because it is a quality service and as long as I've had it, save one year over the Christmas holidays when it was terribly laggy, I've been very satisfied with it.
bumnut  +   1760d ago
MS will never change while people such as yourself (no offence intended) are willing to pay for a service that is free on every other platform.

I game on 360 (silver account now though), pc & ps3. I have dead rising 2 for pc and can sign into live and chat with my 360 friends who are paying £40 per year for free!

Thats because pc owners voted with their wallets and said no we are not paying, 360 owners need to do the same.
R_aVe_N  +   1761d ago
This is one issue me and Valve agree totally on. If a dev wants to give their loyal fans free DLC they should be able to. The 360 is just a console they should not stand in the way between the dev's and their fanbase. Without these fans the 360 would not have made it this far. If they keep pushing I can see Valve no longer supporting the 360.
YoshiMeetsU  +   1761d ago
"If they keep pushing I can see Valve no longer supporting the 360. "


Yeah right.
BrianG  +   1761d ago
Okay, I get that they couldn't offer it for free.

But why 540 MS Points?
Why not 400? or even lower?

If anyone has any insight on this please reply with it, it would be appreciated.
TheObserver  +   1761d ago
Probably having to do with covering for bandwidth cost. PSN charges developers for bandwidth usage. Developers fork the bill too on PSN. Still don't understand why they have to CHARGE THE CONSUMER in XBL.

Amazing how developers are willing to pay to host free DLC on PSN.

frostypants  +   1761d ago
Why is it amazing? Sony is spending money to run PSN. Why shouldn't they ask the devs to pay a little?

The nice thing is they leave it up to the devs to determine whether or not to pass the buck to the consumer.
No FanS Land  +   1761d ago
though devs don't pay bills after a free DLc has been out for 60 days.
Pandamobile  +   1761d ago
$7 is the cheapest Microsoft allows for large scale DLC
vhero  +   1761d ago
The thing is they COULD offer it for free just stupid MS policys getting in the way. I mean it's not like they don't make a fortune already off your XBL fees they gotta sting you for DLC fees. Sony let the Devs choose the fee for DLC so why can't MS?? Simple MS doesn't care about gamers only money. They bought this generation nothing more. The sad thing is looking at how quick Sony are catching up and next years lineup.. They are gonna come in third AGAIN.
Chnswdchldrn  +   1761d ago
xbox live: because if it costs money its totally worth it
gamejediben  +   1761d ago
Well it better be worth it because online is free for PC, PS3 and Wii. As for me, that's $60 a year I'd rather spend on games with free online play.
edoman20  +   1761d ago
^This XD
Ravage27  +   1761d ago
so true :/
i've always regarded those who willingly pay for LIVE to be a special bunch of idiots. Wonder if they are aware of the fact that they are the only gamers on this planet dumb enough to pay extra money just to access the online content of games they have ALREADY PAID FOR.

Then again these are the same idiots who senselessly defended the price hike using bullshit like 'it's only $5 per month'. Lol try using that retarded logic to justify all your bills and taxes.
cliffbo  +   1761d ago
this is going to get very interesting when Steam comes to PS3
bustamove  +   1761d ago
My, my how the tables have turned. :S

I don't understand why anyone would pay for something that should be free. Really sad.
Dr_Handsome  +   1761d ago
I applaud Valve for doing this, but what financial benefit do they receive for giving every dlc away for free?
R_aVe_N  +   1761d ago
I think they know that the fanbase will support them more when they know any DLC that comes out will be free. That usually turns into more sales since word of mouth would get around about it. That would just be my guess. Or they don't care about the money and care about their fanbase more. *shrugs*
OtherWhiteMeat  +   1761d ago
what financial benefit do they receive for giving every dlc away for free?
A loyal fanbase who will be very eager to purchase your next game.Games like Half-life and Unreal Tournament have be giving away freebies for years.
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Saladfax  +   1761d ago
There's also the fact that digital distribution creates significantly lower cost. Valve has already seen a significant profit from L4D2, so why not have a sale to coincide with a release of free DLC?

The sale, in turn, boosts the amount of copies purchased by a *huge* margin; well more than enough to justify the lowered profits from selling it for less. Steam's been doing this for a long time. Every time a TF2 update (every one of which has been free) hits, they do a free weekend and slash the price. The business model works because not only does it actually increase profits, but the whole "free" thing makes them look like saints.
UnwanteDreamz  +   1761d ago
In truth there are many reasons why a company would give something away. Some of those reasons have already been mentioned above. Look at other products. Go into any store and see how many "buy one get one free" offers they display.

Depending on how well the game did they could just look at free DLC as good PR/ marketing.
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solar  +   1761d ago
Valve believes in gaming as an "entertainment service". not push a crap game out and see how many people buy it before word gets out it is crap.

when Valve releases a game they support it from the day it's released til....well forever. HL was released in '96 still gets updates. TF2, L4D, HL2, the Source Engine has gotten over 20 visual and optimization updates from the day it was released. none of which you have to pay for.

Valve relies on word of mouth and great support of their titles after release, producing a very very loyal fan base. when you buy a Valve title you expect more content, and the content you get after purchase Valve wants to give every gamer who buys their product for "FREE".

free DLC is the way gaming should be. not like it is today, where many many console gamers pay extra for a very little content. imo it's one of the problems that is plaguing gaming today.
NCAzrael  +   1761d ago
From a business standpoint, word of mouth is the best advertising you could ever have. Publishers spend millions of dollars per game to advertise and get the word out about that game. Even then they rely heavily on word of mouth advertising. Let's say you see an ad for a new game and you're really excited about it and the following day you talk to your friend about it. He's never heard of the game, but because you mentioned it now he's heard of it. Because you were interested, now he's interested. And unless you're the loneliest person on the planet, you're probably going to tell more than one person about it.

Now let's say you've bought the game, and you absolutely love it, and you tell your friends about it, but they aren't that interested. Maybe they had other games they were playing when that one came out. Later on, there's a free update released for it, adding some new levels or new weapons or whatever that makes you start playing it again. You tell your friends about it, and perhaps now they're interested. You tell them that not only is it still fun to play, but now there's a bunch of DLC for it as well, and the DLC is FREE! Well, now there's a greater chance your friends are going to buy it, so with the free DLC that they didn't pay millions of dollars in advertising for, they have just generated a bunch of new sales.

It's all about successful marketing.
Sarcasm  +   1761d ago
Free DLC = Consumer loyalty

Something Microsoft has absolutely no clue about.
acere  +   1761d ago
pay motherfuckers pay lol
solidboss  +   1761d ago
wait a minute
valve disses microsoft and xbox 360 by giving the dlc for free on pc and l4d2 for $6.79?????
wow what a way to seperate your fan base valve..i understand they cant really do nothing about the pricing of dlc on xbl but this isn't really a diss to m$ because ppl are still buying the dlc which means in the end they are still getting money. who valve really are dissing are the console FANS. its not right that the pc gets the dlc for free yet live users have to pay for it. valve if you have a problem with the way mS handles their dlc and xbl dont take it out on the console fans
Saladfax  +   1761d ago
Curious. Then how should they respond? Their only option to make things fair would be to charge $7 for the DLC on Steam as well. In a way, they're not really doing anything differently than normal; Valve has always had big sales to coincide with more free DLC.

Direct the irritation to the bean counters in Microsoft, who don't understand the concept of a loss leader.
meatnormous  +   1761d ago
Most of valves fanbase is on the pc. I bought left for dead 2 last night off of steam.
solar  +   1761d ago
holy crap, i dont even know where to start with that. you are delusional solidboss.
solidboss  +   1761d ago
i know that most of valve's fanbase comes from the pc but that doesnt mean its okay to alienate your console fanbase. the gaming industry is about THE FANS AKA THE GAMERS..we are the ones who buy these games play them and buy the consoles for the respective console. and support the developers. how does that make me delusional? don't get me wrong im all for going after m$ and they way they price their dlc but making half of your fans pay for something and the other half free is just ignorant and in the end only hurting your fans the real people valve should be worrying about.
JackBNimble  +   1761d ago
@ solidboss
I think you're confused, MS is making the "gamer" pay for the DLC not Valve.
Valve wants it to be free on XBL but MS wont allow it. The only alternative would be for Valve not to release the L4D2 DLC on XBL, but wouldn't that alienate Valves fan base even more?
ocnkng  +   1761d ago
I don't get it
How is Valve dissing 360 fans? The fact that console fans have to pay for free DLC is not Valve's fault. They wanted to provide free but M$ has rules about fleecing customers. All that Valve is doing is providing people like me(own a ps3 and 360 and gaming rig) the chance to get it on the PC for cheap and then enjoy the free DLC. Also I think Valve are providing the statement that they don't really care about that crappy DLC money coz they r making enough anyway. Instead of railing against Valve shouldn't you be mad at M$ who charge people for playing online and then have these ridiculous rules for fleecing its fan-base every chance they get.
vodny  +   1761d ago
I don't get it. Valve wants their DLC for free on every platform. Microsoft is againts it with their stupid policy. Valve is offering their product free of charge, they don't get a cent for this. It's Microsoft who charges X360 owners to pay for a FREE product. It's like giving your friend (George) a present for another friend (Jimmy) (who you can't meet for some reason) and he (George) will sell this present to that friend (Jimmy) instead of giving him it for free as supposed. George (Microsoft) will oppose that they want money because they go-between this transaction and they want to pay for their XBL service. But Gold members are already paying for that service so where is the point? Why is Microsoft so greedy?
frostypants  +   1761d ago
solidboss, so, Valve should charge PC gamers more just so 360 gamers won't feel ripped off by Microsoft?

That makes sense how?

They literally cannot do anything about the DLC cost on Live. If they choose to give it away on the PC, or even pull a sales stunt on the full game to make a point, it's not causing any additional inconvenience to the console base. It DOES serve to make Microsoft look stupid, and mission accomplished.

If they wanted to punish console fans, they'd just tell MS to stuff it and take the DLC down all together.
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-IronMan-  +   1761d ago
Valve finally see the light.
kingpocky  +   1761d ago
i was thinkin if i should buy L4D2, came home, saw this news, and made my $6.79 purchase, awesome day.
EVO-OM3GA  +   1761d ago
PS3 owners are still crying for left for dead lol your all amusing to me and from what you all type it shows you know very little about what Sony have planned.

Didn't any of you see an article stating rockstar will be making an exclusive first person zombie game, I guess not.

Also why do you go on about MS charging for dlc don't any of you buy dlc for your ps3 games whether multi platform or exclusive
frostypants  +   1761d ago
I own a PS3, a 360, and a PC.

I have the sense to know that Valve always offers their stuff at big discounts on Steam around this time of year.

I just bought L4D1, L4D2, and all its DLC for $10.

How about you? Sucker...

I don't see Sony forcing developers to charge for DLC that said developer wants to give away. That's the point here.
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Sarcasm  +   1761d ago
Funny how this had nothing to do with the PS3.
helrazor343  +   1761d ago
How are people getting on at Valve for this...
as it is my understanding that they wanted this dlc free on the 360, and how is that hurting gamers. What they did isn't hurting gamers either (they're just getting pissed because the discount was passed on to someone else). Yeah M$ has the right to their charging policies, as does Valve have the right to give out free dlc or whatever. The 360 gamers don't miss out, they just have to pay, but that seems more like M$'s doing.
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vodny  +   1761d ago
It's really sad that someone wants to give his product for free and Microsoft want gamers to pay for that free stuff because it's distributed via their Xbox Live stream. It's like you're not paying for the product, you're paying for the XBL service which is already included if you own a Gold or Premium Gold account. That's sick.
cliffbo  +   1761d ago
with the MOVE devs saying it's a great way to transition PC gamers over to the PS3 and steam coming to PS3 (given that the DLC 'could' be free on PS3), could we be seeing the beginning of a co-operative strategy from Sony and Valve?

putting N4G users aside, could this encourage 360 and PC gamers over to the PS3? i think it could
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jjank11  +   1761d ago
I heart Valve. If you let the big guys just push around the industry, change and evolution will never happen. Anyhow, I want me some Episode 3 already!! L4D and Portal will suffice until then!!
SexyPrawns  +   1761d ago
All that free stuff Valve has given us over the years has earned them something Microsoft will never even know the concept of.

wanderingpixel  +   1761d ago
This bites. It's totally worth the money IMO, but I think it's real dickish of MS to do this.
ocnkng  +   1761d ago
just placed order to get it for 6.79 awesome!
vodny  +   1761d ago
Microsoft sucks
On PC you get L4D 1+2 bundle with all DLC for $10. On X360 it's $118. I spell it extra for Microsoft - "one fu*king hundred and eighteen american dollars". If I were a X360 gamer, I would be really angry at Microsoft and their crazy XBL politics.

If I were Valve, I would release L4D2 on Blu-Ray and sell it PS3 owners for 20 bucks and this would be a grave for Microsoft.

EDIT and added: It's really sad that someone wants to give his product for free and Microsoft want gamers to pay for that free stuff because it's distributed via their Xbox Live stream. It's like you're not paying for the product, you're paying for the XBL service which is already included if you own a Gold or Premium Gold account. That's sick.
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frostypants  +   1761d ago
Hell, just release both as a package download on PSN for $20-30, including all DLC.

Bam. Done. Point made.

It's a shame about Live. It has other issues beyond this one. The whole buying points system is utterly stupid (why must I buy points, then spend them on a game...why is there no way to just use cash up front without the extra clicks?!).

The party system is really nice, when it's not causing in-game party glitches. But they need to go back to the drawing board with everything else next time (if there IS a next time).
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Gilliand  +   1761d ago
Nice, just bought it
darkdoom3000  +   1761d ago
Times like this I wish i was a PC gamer :/
iammason  +   1761d ago
This Article is Poorly Constructed
The only person dissing Microsoft and the 360 is the author of this article. There is no evidence that says Valve lowered the price to spite Xbox Live users, and it clearly says at the end of the article that they may evrn be putting to much thought on why the sale is on.

They just want hits on their website, and by golly they, thry got 'em.
jordenkotor  +   1761d ago
Ignorant idiots
This article proves they know nothing about how microsoft runs.

They only allow so much free content for a single game on the Xbox Marketplace, that's why the DLC's cost points on the xbox.

Steam is owned by valve so they can set the price to whatever they want, they lowered the price to celebrate the ending of the left 4 dead 1 characters.

Not because they hate the xbox. Friggin morons
Beahmscream  +   1761d ago
I love Valve.
therapist  +   1761d ago

PC is the obvious choice

the 360 version looks like shit (SUB HD)
runs like shit (20-30 frames per second is SHIT)
and, worst of all, it costs 10x as much.

Consoles are good for 2 things, and 2 things only, their respective exclusive games (gears of war2, god of war 3, killzone 2, uncharted 2, halo and ummm, ummmm, that is it) and, most importantly,
funding for devs to make great games on the pc.
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JUDALATION  +   1761d ago
You are on your last breath....Ps3 fanboy will school you!
Next Gen will over take P.C because of a smaller market and lower sales.. whicth means Piracy will be a huge concern for developers. The fact is that the PS3 will have some of the best exclusives this gen... over P.C and Xbox... ITS JUST A FACT!!! (Resistance socom 4 infamous uncharted little big planet killzone agent dc iniverse final fanticy )And the Move is more Mouse than duelshock so games like STARCRAFT can be ported if the games are simplified... also the ps3 has the best upcoming exclusives (sorcery Last gaurdian the shoot MAG 2 and many more) the fact is that the P.C is not as tempting as a secure console.

Now im a PC player here but I have to stick up for the console because you P.C users are always bashing and its never the other way around... everyone has a p.c dude!
JonnyBigBoss  +   1761d ago
Hence why I have stuck to PC gaming.

PC >>>>> Xbox 360

Plus, building PCs is fun.
hiredhelp  +   1761d ago
building pc's is very much my thing and is fun. building for someone else and on a budget. not soo much.
getonmylev3l  +   1761d ago
just built my first :) hella fun
Human Analog  +   1761d ago
I love Valve.... And here is why.
They are never afraid to piss of popular conventions. First it was the PS3, now it's Microsoft and the DLC cap. They would bite the hand that feeds them if they felt it was the right thing to do. I respect that. Let them burn bridges, and have it light thier way!
kagon01  +   1761d ago
360 fanboys = >:()

PC gamers = :)

The negative comments are quite entertaining, keep it up guys...
getonmylev3l  +   1761d ago
i am :)
hiredhelp  +   1761d ago
I would laugh my ass off at this post and the respnses but. im affraid ill pissing myself. listen to yourselvs. so what.!! i wasnt jumping threw the roof when valve big fat GABE said sorry to ps3 fans and was wanting and is being apart of the ps3 base.
NO NO NO. infact i dreaded it. still do. downloading paying for games one thing. but what if you want to trade in your games get some money raised for another. oh wait you cant its downloadable. (Thats my point) as for big fat gabe that urging for another dohnut! he likes money just as much as microsoft.

i dont know whatever happend to when it was all about the games.!! bring back the 80's early 90's
#30 (Edited 1761d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
solar  +   1761d ago
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