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Ninja Theory: Hard To Get “Things Working Fast” On PS3

Much has been spoken in regards to possible screen tearing issues with the PS3 version of Ninja Theory’s Enslaved. However, after the Heavenly Sword developers have had much time with the PS3′s architecture, Ninja Theory should have more “know how” on the Sony system, right? According to them, they still find it challenging.

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units2703d ago

so doubt most people will care

Anton Chigurh2703d ago ShowReplies(26)
master_of_ownage2703d ago (Edited 2703d ago )

the cell is a bitch to program for and anyone who knows about programming knows this. PS3 system is the most expensive to develop for and provides the smallest install base. If you want to get upset, blame Sony for always using the most complex and advanced architecture... a great decision in theory, but (sometimes) a pain in the ass in practice.

This is fact that many developers acknowledge. No amount of PS3 flag waving is going to change that, and its not about poor development programming.

Blacktric2703d ago

Well, if the architechture is too hard to program, there are always first party companies like Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch to help. Sony can send some first party developers to help others.

nycredude2703d ago

The only thing you are doing is owning yourself. Stop living in the past bro. Blame the developers for having subpar skills not the machine.

If you aren't skilled enough to drive a race car and post good time do you blame it on the car? Seriously you just have to practice and get better, or lose the race.

master_of_ownage2702d ago

Sorry but Ninja Theory is not a terribly large company.Their resources are either devoted to games like enslaved and new devil may cry.

The Playstation 3 architecture is very complex. Getting the know how on their toolkit takes time. Time they simply don't have.

It's all about choosing your battles and Ninja Theory opted for better quality on more platforms.rather than lesser quality on single one platforms.

midgard2292702d ago

um from what i understand developing for the atari was harder than developing a game for the ps3, so says an interview with itagaki (ex team ninja leader.

people just whine and complain.

if ninja theory even did amazing with heavenly sword and all other first party games look amazing and always get some sort of game of the year, wtf this guy talkin bout?

just because its different doesnt mean its hard. just gotta learn it again

thief2702d ago

Play Uncharted 2
Play Killzone 2
Then play Halo or Alan Wake

Makidian2702d ago

Your comment would be perfectly reasonable if they hadn't already made a PS3 game, that was exclusive, three years ago. So yeah, it is about piss poor development programming on their part.

Ju2702d ago (Edited 2702d ago )

"Ninja Theory opted for better quality on more platforms"

No, NT opted for the cheaper solution with the wider market reach. Simple. They did not go down the max quality route for sure. Costs usually more, creates a much more sophisticated product, but well, will also cost more to develop for.

Crystallis2702d ago

"This is fact that many developers acknowledge. No amount of PS3 flag waving is going to change that, and its not about poor development programming"

You just made yourself look like a fool with that comment.

MisterAV2702d ago (Edited 2702d ago )

do you think naughty dog or sucker punch are big studios?
and how can you say that more platform means more quality? most of time less...

Nemo882702d ago

... But Sony Im afraid is still more to blame here than anyone for the results of multiplats on PS3.

It IS more expensive.. and more complex to dev for, therefore posing more of a barrier to devs.

And the fact is that it is seemingly much harder to develop for and the gains you see are what... 20% more in terms of visuals?

Overal the ps3 system (smoothness, quietness,bluray standard hd etc), and sony exclusives, still make it my system of choice. But I pray to God that Sony dont make the same mistake next time. MS knows it IS all about pleasing the developers.
Making multiplat devs learn completely alien programming on a more expensive system is just shooting yourself in the foot.

At least next gen hopefully they will not be trying to push yet another new (and expensive) disc format and can spend money on the important stuff in terms of performance.. graphics card, ram (give us more than is necessary at the time for a change), bandwidth, disc read/write speed, integrated online options and fix the OS so updates do not require a whole new firmware to install and can just be patched.

raztad2702d ago (Edited 2702d ago )

I agree with Ju.

NT picked a poorly performing engine on the PS3 called UE3 (instead of their own propietary solution that just needed tweaking) and they (not surprisignly) found a lot of bottlenecks. No wonder how Enslaved barely stands on par with HS, a game released 3 years earlier.

Next victim of NT cheap decisions: DMC. I can bet game will end up running like a slow molass at less than 30fps. Why not to use DMC4 engine?

beardpapa2702d ago

@master_of_ownage

The Visceral Games guys working on the new dead space says hi.

midgard2292702d ago

yeah, who woulda guessed next gen would actually be more complicated and the devs wouldd have to actually work. i mean not everyone uses last gen hardware on a next gen console.

360 is still next gen but they took alot of short cuts which made their console not as strong or able to make such quality as the ps3 does. sadly while gears still looks good they dont even hold a candle to ps3 exclusives

tucky2702d ago (Edited 2702d ago )

@master_of_ownage: excellent comment ... people should listen instead of disagreeing

@Nemo: the 360 has certainly as good exclusives as the PS3. It's just a matter of taste.

BrianC62342702d ago

What a bunch of BS. The Cell is easy to program for if the programmers know anything. Stop trying to make old fashioned games and get with the multicore 21st century developers. This is how everything in the future is going to be.

BrianC62342702d ago

"The Playstation 3 architecture is very complex. Getting the know how on their toolkit takes time. Time they simply don't have. "

That excuse won't cut it when it comes to Ninja Theory. They made one of the first PS3 games and did a good job. This isn't their first PS3 game.

catguykyou2702d ago

With hundreds of development companies with many developers per company, Sony doesn't have enough first party devs to go around and help them. On top of this, not a single dev knows every single in and out of the system and the development process. Making a game is a team effort. Takes a whole company/ team. Most of the time, losing one person on the team doesn't hurt the team at all.

For example, You could take one programmer from ND and give him to EA. Do you think from then on, EA is gonna produce ND quality games?

catguykyou2702d ago

with that logic, why are devs even bothering building stuff for the specialized product? How many people do you know own a race car? Not much of a market there. They should go make stuff for the family car (wii) or the nicer street legal sporty car (360).

catguykyou2702d ago

No one said the 360 was more powerful than the PS3, just easier to program for. It probably took 1/4 the man hours to get the games on 360 to look that good compared to what it takes on the PS3. That is Sony's fault. If they did a better job building their SDK's and dev tools, devs wouldn't have to spend hardly that amount of time squeezing power from the PS3. More games would look like Sony first party games. Sony first party games would look even better!

DaTruth2702d ago (Edited 2702d ago )

If I have to choose between slightly less mediocre multiplats and exceptional exclusives, than I say Sony made the right choice!

Let the multiplats be slightly more mediocre, I only buy six games a year anyway. Four exceptional exclusives will appeal to me and some dev will put in the work to make two decent multiplats.

@Peole saying Sony should make better dev tools: Are you suggesting Sony create tools that work on the competitions machine? That's just stupid! Sony makes more dollars on their 1st party exclusives than on 3rd party games, so they probably prefer other devs games look like crap!

lonix2702d ago

The devs aren't going to rewrite the unreal engine code just to make a game for ps3

N4g_null2702d ago

[email protected]

Isn't GT5 about that little analogy you just made? If the car is not tweaked to precision and your handling style then you will surely loose.

Even in nase car there is a whole crew making sure the engine works better than all the other cars.

Sure the SONy guys are making some gamers happy but from the sales you could say not enough to matter. It's been 4 years trying to erase a lead by a company that is going for casual gamers now lol, MS and they just sold the last reason for owning the second place. Yet Sony and all their studios can not get gamers to put them on top.

If you guys have programmed for a risc chip or a cisc chip you would know why fragmenting and bandwidth issues cuase a barrier to get every thing working faster on the PS3. Imagine a i7 yet all of its cool features where on another peace of chip. So now you have to almost setup up a packet server just to get your code running well.

The problem that NT has is they made an engine yet they are not trying to make the same game so they are basicly having to have to rewrite code and break things down even more making the dev time longer just to say it's going to be on the PS3.

Good tech doesn't make you rewrite your code just for your game to be acceptable. Notice how no PC games suddently run worst on the newer chips? The same goes for even the wii's chip and GPUs. Yet you guys are some how saying developers are the problem. If this was any one other than sony the chip would have been boycotted like the jagure by atari and the 3do.

The gaines devs are getting from the PS3 are not an order better than whats on the xbox 360.

Hey I understand you bought into this power yet for some reason it's not panning out right. Yeah your mad at people but it really is up to sony to either teach devs how to use it or fix their problems. Intel does it and so does amd and nvidia is known to do it.

Being easy to program has long been some thing console makers learned if they want 3rd party games.

ChineseDemocracy2702d ago

Enslaved looks almost identical to Heavenly Sword (graphically) which is almost 3 years old. I think that says something.

Time_Is_On_My_Side2702d ago

What's ironic of your comment is that even though it's the hardest to develop for, why haven't the best games come from the easier to develop platforms?

Now that's a real question that needs to be answered, is anyone willing to attempt?

catguykyou2702d ago (Edited 2702d ago )

Coding doesn't make the game fun. Good design does. Coding doesn't make the game pretty. Good art does. Good coding allows a bigger pallet for these artists. That is why, even though your just stating your opinion, the best games aren't on the easier to code for console.

I would argue the best games this gen have come from nintendo who has the easiest to code for console this gen. If you simply mean graphics then Sony has the most powerful console. The right people took the time and money to get great graphics out of it. Those same people on a equally powerful system that is easier to work with would have spent half the money and time making the same game. You don't see that as a problem? Sony provides the sdk (the development kit used to allow the programmers code to be understood by the console). This sdk is not known to be very friendly and devs have to do lots of extra coding to get something done that may only take one command on a different console.

moparful992702d ago

Ughh I'm so sick of this argument.. Sony shouldnt have to hold these developers hands when making a game.. Its been proven over and over that a sony proprietary engine runs soo much better then these third party engines.. I think this is where the "bottle necking" comes from... Third party engines have to be split up between the spe's on the cell and that is a complicated mess so instead the developers just squeeze all of that information into the single core and thats why it has fps issues, screen tearing, bad AA.. There's just not enough memory on that single core to run all of that.. I wish sony would sell their proprietary engines to devs to build games out of but of course they wont allow that because it would be used to build the 360 version as well.. Ohh well my ps3 exclusives keep me satisfied...

+ Show (23) more repliesLast reply 2702d ago
tinybigman2703d ago

i suggest you stop talking now because everything thats coming out of your mouth makes you look bad, very bad.

talltony2702d ago (Edited 2702d ago )

“…we have found that it’s usually harder for us to get things working fast on the PS3. It’s a really powerful piece of kit but it’s a little more complex to work with than the 360. So maybe there is slightly more work being done on the PS3 as we can be pretty sure that if we get it working at a decent FPS on PS3 then it’s going to work on 360 too.”

Dont take things the wrong way guys.
Keywords: Powerful, Complex.

Raoh2702d ago

tired of sites twisting and/or omitting quotes for hits

N4g_null2702d ago

So maybe there is slightly more work being done on the PS3 as we can be pretty sure that if we get it working at a decent FPS on PS3 then it’s going to work on 360 too.

Keywords More work powerful yet it going to work on the 360 too? That does not say more powerful thats says overly complex just to get to the same out come.

It's like arguing with your girl friend using 0s and 1s in machine code. The only reason devs do it is because they are desperate for sales.

niceguywii602702d ago (Edited 2702d ago )

Sounds like this is their excuse having to sadly admit to their PS3 fanbase that now that they are working on the 360 they came across unexpected advantages with the 360 hardware and now realize PS3's short comings and struggled.

"It’s a really powerful piece of kit but it’s a little more complex to work with than the 360"

Yes if they didn't say that they would have been committing financial suicide starting war with the SDF due to the PS3 version being inferior when they were PS3 only devs that helped create the myth of PS3 being more powerful to sell games on PS3.

All your quote means to me is despite the PS3 version being inferior PS3 is not weak. Also could be an all out attempt of appeasement. *talltony* ate that up as intended by the team that thought up the tailored words for the fanboys. *talltony's* quote makes little sense considering PS3 is having trouble keeping up more often as the generation goes on. You feel for that crap LMAO

Snakefist302702d ago (Edited 2702d ago )

I was surprised that NT releases their projects after HS to the ps3 judging how things ended with Sony (not well)and i deffinetely don’t believe that they’re showing the same “love” for all platfroms.Is it coincidence that every gameplay footage of Enslaved they showed us so far comes from the 360?not even one on the ps3.They say that there isn’t a lead platform of development for Enslaved.I say there is and the other one is just a port.It’s pretty obvious which is the port.
Anyhow Enslaved seems mediocre so a 3-4 days rental suits perfect.October has other much more interesting game releases.

DMC5 is gonna be the same thing cause they gonna use the Unreal Engine 3 on that game.

ministryx2702d ago

no, the game is gonna suck in ps3 because it can't handle the UE3. Remember, RSV1 and 2, splinter cell double agent, UT3, stranglehold, the list goes on and the ps3 always dissapoints, and I own a ps3. I'm getting tired with ps3 this, ps3 that.

moparful992702d ago

Umm most of the Ninja theory team that worked on heavenly sword has left so most of these people are new..

darkziosj2702d ago

@thief yeah just like all ps3 multiplatform games sucks

CernaML2702d ago

Yeah... no. Not really.

Knushwood Butt2702d ago

They blew most of the budget on Andy Serkis's paycheck.

BkaY2702d ago

they were praising the bajesus out of ps3... what happen now.. ps3 is no good for them.. what a bunch of idiots...

and for the record .. HS still looks better than enslaved..

dont blame the console... mate.. step your game up .. you are not living in 2007..

peace

RazRei2702d ago

Are you seriously blind about RE5? Capcom is one of the worst when it comes to porting games between the 360 and the PS3. Not only does the 360 versions have better load times and graphics but it also have effects that the PS3 versions always lack.

I MEAN HELL in SF4 the boat stage YOU'RE MISSING BOATS for god sakes that where never put back in when SSF4 came out for the PS3.

DMC4? Better on the 360.
RE5 again? Better on the 360.

I'm sorry folks but MT Frameworks and MT Frameworks 2.0 was meant for the 360.

avengers19782702d ago

Let's see Heavenly Sword was great and looked amazing. And Enslaved looks great so congrats to Ninja Theory for putting in the work.

+ Show (8) more repliesLast reply 2702d ago
LarVanian2703d ago

Screen-tearing IMO is something you really need to pay close attention to notice. I honestly didn't notice it once while playing the demo.

LarVanian2702d ago

Forgot to say that I didn't notice screen-tearing during my first playthrough of Uncharted: DF. I only noticed it mid-way through my second play-through after looking carefully.

Ju2702d ago

And yet, there is a perfect example what you can do if you focus on these issues (as a studio). UC2 fixed all those issues, increased the visual by a mile and yet had no issues with screen tear.

I would have liked this game to be HS2 (even with a different name). Improve the cinematics, add MLAA, add triple buffering, fix all performance issues, etc.

But no, instead we get the same with more colors...shame. Well, maybe someone takes over HS2. One can only hope.

XI_-Minty-_IX2702d ago

Sony Santa Monica + Heavenly Sword 2? ;-)

ZombieAutopsy2703d ago (Edited 2703d ago )

It's because you used the Unreal Engine NT, as long as they optimize it this time it might be better afterall UT3 ran pretty good. I just wish they would of invested in making their own engine that could of been optimized from the ground up for both platforms.

@too pawned

Yea because we haven't heard that its hard to get UE3 running as good on ps3 as the 360 /s

slutface2703d ago

They have no class whatsoever. Quit bitching cuz it only makes u look like an incompetent developer.

divideby02703d ago

yea,, considering the games we have seen on the PS3.. and I really liked HS.. they sound like whinners..

beardpapa2702d ago (Edited 2702d ago )

i'ved said it many times before and I'll say it again.

Ninja Theory developed HS exclusively on the ps3 to bank on the success of the PS brand. All that stuff they said before the release of HS was PR bs talk.

When their game flopped in sales, they quickly turned around and decided to develop on both 360 and PS3. "Oh hay whadja know... we gonna be multiplatz now"

How is it so hard for you guys to see that NT is just an incompetent software development company trying to make quick cash? Little effort maximum profit?
They went from "oh blurayz is l33t storage!" "ps3 is da schizzle" to "oh we can't get it fast enough or working right"

At least when Gabe Newell bashed the PS3 for its architecture he had conviction. And even though Mr. newell has turned heads these days, if you look at the bigger picture, he's just praising the PS network and its openness. He hasn't made any statements [yet] going against his original opinion of the PS3 architecture. I bet he still thinks PS3 programming stinks but the network smells like flowers.

These NT guys? No, they praise a system for being fast then whine about it being slow when their 1st game into this gen didn't turn them into Bobby Koticks. Not to say they never developed on Xbox before. HS was originally shown on Xbox 1 hardware. NT has no loyalty to sides when it comes to producing games. They're just in it for the glory and not the dedication to creating masterful art.

maxcer2703d ago

lol yup add them to your list of "lazy" developers. i swear that term was invented by ps3fanboys this gen to cover any/all excuses.

Makidian2702d ago

If the stable of first party exclusives weren't so good that excuse wouldn't be circulated. In some cases, that isn't the truth, but in a lot of them it is.

Shikoro2702d ago

Oh man... -_- Naughty Dog, GG, Sony Santa Monica (a.k.a. first party developers) say hi...

divideby02702d ago

max.. all I can say is LMAO... you clearly only own one console or you would not put out a silly comment like that....

saint_seya2702d ago

@maxcer
the thing is that we ps3 owners are used to great games.. not just some generic games with number 2,3,4 or five after the name..
so we can tell the difference betwen lazzy devs and good devs ;)
can u say the same?

The Lazy One2702d ago

@"generic games with number 2,3,4 or five after the name.. "

sure you're not...

and there are no lazy developers in the industry. Stop saying they are. There's plenty of reasons that the games look worse. Laziness is not one of them. They ran into unexpected bugs on a new architecture. They started with a bad system design for the PS3's architecture and didn't have time to get performance up to par all around. Their deadline was too short. Or any other number of possible problems they ran into.

ash_divine2702d ago

What about the people who re-hash Madden every year? Or Guitar Hero?

Those devs are lazy COMPARED TO our top tier devs. So why isn't okay to call them lazy? Besides, Ninja Theory have ALREADY made a quality PS3 title in the past.(that oddly enough, had little to no screen tearing.) Say what you want about other companies, but NT have NO excuse.

dalibor2702d ago (Edited 2702d ago )

Lazy people are everywhere. Businesses, politics, movies, music and even sports. Think about it. What makes games so different, take MW2 for example, it could have used a beta but naw it's time consuming.

The Lazy One2702d ago

"Those devs are lazy COMPARED TO our top tier devs. So why isn't okay to call them lazy? Besides, Ninja Theory have ALREADY made a quality PS3 title in the past.(that oddly enough, had little to no screen tearing.) Say what you want about other companies, but NT have NO excuse."

They are not lazy. A cheetah is slow compared to a car, but I would never in my wildest dreams consider a cheetah slow.

Someone gave the example of madden. Look at what they do every year. They manage to release a AAA title in the same quarter every single year. That's a ridiculous deadline. Do I consider them the highest quality developers in the world? no. They certainly aren't lazy.

Developers are constrained by a hell of a lot more than their imaginations. They have deadlines to meet. They don't meet them, they don't get paid, and the studio goes out of business. Not every developer has the luxury of being able to go back to the publisher and say, "Hey... our game's doing great but we need more time." most of the time the publisher will say, "nope. We're taking all the code, finishing it in house, and you aren't getting paid. gg no re." Sure naughty dog/Polyphony/Kojima productions can do it and probably get extra money thrown at them too because they're the star and they've proved that Sony will make money off whatever they make no matter the time frame they're given. The average developer does not get treated that way.

+ Show (5) more repliesLast reply 2702d ago
Saladfax2703d ago

Keep in mind that this isn't some big public declaration or interview stating that the PS3 architecture sucks and is too hard. This was a response to question asked of them on their own forum, which was, "Xbox 360 or PS3?"

Her full answer was that they have an equal number of dev kits and people working on both platforms, so both receive roughly the same attention. Her addendum was that the PS3 is more complex to work with, a simple truth that no one can deny. There's no hint of a complaint anywhere.

Jazz41082702d ago

You guys can keep fighting about your poor multiplats and I will keep playing them on my 360 over the poor ps3 design anyday. Firmware hpdates weekly and mandatory installs should have made u run to the hills but you will defend sony till they are out of business.

moparful992702d ago

Whats funny is that more often then not these games are dead up identical and these sreen tearing issues and lack of vsync or lack of msaa are soooooo minute that they are barely indescernable.. In fact these differences are only noted by people that painstakingly look for them.. Even digital foundry said the differences were negligible but that screen tear was more apparent on the ps3.. I had to watch their video 3 times before I noticed screen tearing and the only time I did notice it was when the camera pans the lennght of the ship from the outside there was screen tear at the top.. Other then that I had alot of trouble finding the screen tear.. At the end of the day the average gamer wont notice nor care about these issues as they dont really affect the game.. This is just a bullet point in the anti ps3 argument.. Its quite sad really because I dont play a game based on how much screen tear is available I play because its a good game that is enjoyable.. The day that screen tear affects my enjoyment of a game is the day that this argument holds any water....

JustSomeLogic2703d ago (Edited 2702d ago )

You do not have to buy our games. Love NT
Edit: really? Because so far they have produced stellar games, which one of their games is a bad apple? Or does making games better on x360 make a developer a bad apple? If so then almost all 3rd party studios are bad apples.
But I understand your frustration, sucks to own The Most Powerful Console Ever and only have like 5 games or so out of 500 that show any semblance of superiority and have the other games look better on the console of gamers that actually buy and play games instead of look at screenshots and talk about graphics.
Oh dear, I should really cut back on these long edits

Troll-without-Bridge2703d ago

Rotten apples spoil the basket.