With the future of graphics looking more and more realistic, here is a quick look at the next era of graphics and can be possible looking at what has been done today.
will you people at least read the article before disapproving it ? this is not old.
Hideo Kojima talked about this when he start his PS3 quest he calls Metal Gear Solid 4. He also said if the mechanics underneath the game interfered with the game he would cut it from the game.
This article is new. The bottom of the article states "This entry was posted on Saturday, June 23rd, 2007 at 10:37 am and is filed under Dev, Ps3."
Wow. That was quite impressive! I particularly enjoyed watching the '4D Comet Oleary Graphics Demo'
BTW from article "This is Actually a very Complex 3D graphics video, but it can also be Procedurally Rendered on the Xbox 360". @weekapaugh You do know Blu-Ray destroys the load times on the PS3 and every multiplatform game runs smoother on Xbox 360. The PS3 and its amazing CPU can't even run a game as smooth.
The main differences in the platforms is in “Load Times” and that is where the Render Farm on Chip PS3 Wins Hands Down in 4D! yeah, they really sh*t on the PS3.
Im sure that makes you happy but did you read this "As in the video above but not near as high quality and remember X360 is very capable of running these high quality 3D games (and even some elements of 4D)." Key word some.
to grasp at anything that even remotely makes his underpowered console appear equal to the PS3. there is a reason Sony has been so quiet in the face of the avalanche of criticism and flaming aimed at the PS3, They intend to shut alot of people up.
I hope you all didnt fall for that somewhat skewed definition of "4d" because most people realize that the douche-bag author of that article is just a sony fanboy using the most effective method of lying: mixing it with some truth. Life (the universe, existance) cannot "exist" without the 3 dimensions plus the fouth which is time, computer and video game graphics have nothing to do with 4D, the only way they are connected to the 4th dimension is that your computer or console exists within "life" which as i have already said cannot exist without all 4 dimensions. Anyhow I did not see anything in those videos that the xbox 360 cannot do.
LOL the 4th dimension? wtf? Im pretty sure we live in the 3rd dimension.
We actually live in a 4d world but we can only see in 3d. Time is consider the 4th dimension.
And ever since Max Payne's "bullet-time"...game s have been in 4D. Haha...I'm just playin'. How is "4D" even possible? If we can't see it...what's the point of making it? That's like my mom calling me for dinner using a dog whistle...???
How is it possible? If you're playing it, it's 4D. If you're pausing the game, it's not. ;)
800$ console and 250$ console ! each ps3 worth 800$ and each xbox 360 worth 250$. Sony is losing 200$.
Or do you actually believe it?
I think that the main difference in cost is the Blu-ray player in the Playstation 3. If the Xbox 360 had that in then I'm pretty sure the pricing would be similar.
"7.2 - I think that the main difference in cost is the Blu-ray player in the Playstation 3. If the Xbox 360 had that in then I'm pretty sure the pricing would be similar." There is a big difference... 360... you would be wasting $200 on dead HD format...by the end of this year.
"In the past, we have played games, first in 2D, then in 3D. As in the video above but not near as high quality and remember X360 is very capable of running these high quality 3D games (and even some elements of 4D). But in the Future, we will play Games on the Playstation 3 in Full4D! (These are not transitions, they are textures being morphed in real time) May I present just a tiny snipit of the future of 4D on the PS3!" This is aslo from the article. So stop trying to defend your x360 :).
The Cell is the shiznit
so for all of those environments to age in "real time" how many months do you have to play a level for stuff to age to that degree? aging like that just doesn't work in a videogame world. maybe in a game where you go into the future and see everything from the past all old, but that would defeat the point of "real time" aging.
You could use a sped up version in a game. There was a game called Shadow of Memories made by Konami where you had to travel in time to prevent your death (I never completed it). But an effect like this could be used in a game like that, maybe instead of having a timer in the bottom of the screen. If you're running out of time, then your surroundings slowly begin to degenerate? I'm not sure how that'd work in a game, but I think it'd look impressive.
I don't think the author's using the term 'aging' in the traditional sense of the word. what I 'think' he's referring to is the ability of the PS3 to RENDER/ALTER complex sceneries/textures/lighting in real-time - that is, without having to render frame-by-frame as with traditional CGI (i.e., Toy Story/Shrek, etc.) This is what I think they are referring to as '4D'; we've always been able to render complex 3D sceneries...except that doing so is painfully slow: One agonizing frame at a time...the frames are later compiled together using some form of video editing program (i.e, Premiere, Final Cut Pro, etc.). Every single movie showcased in that article can be RENDERED by virtually any PC setup and 3D program. The main difference is that it was never possible to do so in REAL TIME...especially once you begin incorporating complex elements into the scene, such as accurate lighting - particularly ray tracing - and particle effects. This brings to mind The LittleBigPlanet demo, which has been playing in my mind ever since I first saw it. What grabbed me the most was the outstanding lighting - which has me wondering whether we were witnessing raytracing in real time. As a matter of fact, I just now remembered that a while back, someone posted an article about IBM showcasing a bunch of linked PS3's rendering a car scene ray traced in real time. I never took the term 4D seriously until now. If the PS3 is able to do what they actually claim, then we're gonna be seeing some really amazing, groundbreaking stuff in the future.
4d games are going to be like fable? Where you can plant a tree and watch it grow?
In a sense, yes. That and much more. I think fable is the beginning of this and we won't see it happening in full until the next generation of games consoles.
you took the words right out of my mouth. dosent fable 2 already age in real time?
then why use procedural programming for the textures, why not just create an aging texture? One that slowly morphs over time, like a waterfall effect moves and changes, but make it much slower. This sounds like it was possible last gen, just not really incorporated because no games are long enough to effectively use it in creating the environment or atmosphere. The only games I can really think of that would benefit from this type of texturing, is something like a FF7 remake when you go back to midgar, but even then you could just re-texture and save the time and space. The few places that this 4d procedual texturing would be useful would have to be in places that need to age quickly. Or on objects that age quickly. I don't know, just sound like a waste of processing power. Maybe later on when games hit the ceiling in terms of graphics it might be useful, but I doubt it will really be incorporated this generation as there's more of a push for ai, air, crowd and fluid dynamics, and other physics and npc characteristics. also I feel ytmnd has filled all the 4d needs. http://fourd.ytmnd.com/ http://true4d.ytmnd.com/ http://real4d.ytmnd.com/
the difference would be the techniques used to show aging. While 4d does everything through texture a game like fable may use a substitute.
Not sure if this came to mind, but has anyone thought this could be of what can be done in Killzone2, if Sony wants to really impress people. Just a thought.
are these people high when they say 4D because we are living in 3D
As said elsewhere- The 4th dimension is TIME, and we know this, because PS3 games raelly are in 4d. You know how every just keeps saying "give PS3 more time and you'll see how much more powerful it is than 360", or "give it more time and sales will pick up", or "just wait until 2008 when the big games hit"? That's what happens when you develop in 4d!
lol bubbles bud!!!!!!
not one chip in the 360 is as fast as cell at calculations.it's why it's not worth it to put folding home on 360.it would be no different than running a slow pc and making it try to fold.and you pray the system doesn't fry. as for "4D?" 360 does show elements of 4D.the "time" in having to wait for the brown box to arrive.the "time" in waiting for your check to clear in paying for the repair and labor.the "time" in waiting for your system to come back so that you can play again.the "time" in waiting for another game to show up that remotely has textures to match gears of war. actually 360 has other elements of "4D."the "endless time loop."having to repeat the process of returning your system back to microsoft and repeating it all over again.which is why it's called "360."can i get a towel please? also the element of "time reversal."this element is where the clock is turned back.microsoft used this element of time to add a larger hard drive because they said it wasn't needed.they also used it because they said 1080p wasn't needed.and lastly,they used it because they said hdmi wasn't needed.to bad they can't reverse time to add a larger medium.or help hd-dvd because 360 gamers failed to buy the add-on.can i get another towel please?
but it works both ways calderra.
So will the Wii, 2 years from now the Wii's games will put its launch games to shame you speak as if this concept is unique to PS3. lol Quote: ."can i get a towel please?... Its rubbish like this that proves you know the 360 will be useing this so called 4D tech before the PS3 and for some reason PS fans have always needed the PS to the best or have the biggest fanbase to respect the product.
well, my 360 has never broken one time since launch. So you may wait in 4d for your great ps3 to crush the compeittion, and Ill play my currently superior console. (right now it is, cheaper, more games, better games, xbox live, graphics the same....)
Hahahaha, it's funny cause its so true
It's the tiny details that make a big difference. Nice one Sony.
games is goin to look astounding on the ps3..its just only the matter of time till it show how powerful it is..
That link works but I don't see any graphics or videos. What gives? Can someone also give me another bubble please?
very good read.
Yo have to be totaly brain washed to believe a video game can be developed in 4D. This stuff is crazy!!!
Blind lemmings, is what they are called as they believe every piece of $hit thrown at them by Fony. This article is ridiculous in trying to define 4d gaming. Next up, in video games we can do time travel so its the freaking 5th dimension gaming? Its all about programming, you make a game in which a character becomes old, like in sims, so what revolutionary piece of hardware is required to make that happen? Even my cell has sims game so its at par with PS3 i guess. Earlier someone tried justifying 4d by saying it was the 7.1 channel sound which is the 4D. Comeon guys you bought an expensive grill which will fold and keep you warm at nights thats about it.
xbots r funny. if u look at the problems on both systems id rather buy a ps3. lack of games, high cost, under developed online gaming. All these are fixable with games: next couple of months, high cost: there will be a price drop, online gaming: home/warhawk. on a 360 you have a console that break down with updates (games & frimware), over heats, and u gotta pay for something at every turn (xbox live/points then the point dont even add up evenly its like buying hot dogs and buns) All this stuff M$ either blames somebody else for the problems or has no intention of fixing them. I rather have hopes of 4D then hoping that my xbox doesnt break when it uploads H3
This is all very good, but in reality what kind of positive effects is it going to achive? To see things age as you play the game? Doesn't that happen already? I mean, in fable your character gets older - in fable 2 if you plant a tree it will grow over time...
So growth and time can be completely simulated and has been before in many other games. Sony is trying to toot their own horn like they are starting a trend when in reality they are not breaking any new ground at all. Why are so many of you fish on this hook? Brain washing.
Completely agree bud - seems like PR nonsense - we have seen it before. rep for the man with some sense.
to understand that procedural textures can now be rendered in realtime because of the PS3 should really refrain from making comments that reveal how ignorant they really are.
I dont even wanna comment as this will be the next flame war but this is very cool stuff indeed.
The 4D only refers to "Time Morphing" and is really a buzz word rather than a real representation. Morphing textures to distress environments over time is impressive but not really that game specific or 4D in scientific terms. Horsepower is needed for such scenes and maybe the PS3 can provide that but overall its a rather strange and pointless article in game terms. The Cell will provide some unusual and unique angles in gaming mathematics in the future but its still got a long and imaginative way to go in my opinion.
I can see this leading to a whole new type of games like RPG and FPS. Something like "time aging game" TAG? lol... I hope this aging wont get redundant in upcoming games or used by everyone because they see it as a new front... It's pretty cool and stuff, but I don't think it is for every game.
whats crazy about this whole thing here is that the PS3 hasnt proved it can do what they claimed it can from the start(killzone an motorstorm CGI) an now all of a sudden it can really produce 4d graphics!! I want my PS3 to put out some great 3d graphics first before they even start to think about 4D!! these sony boys grasp for any kind of PS3 can do this an 360 cant news they can find!! sony needs to deliver on one promise before moving on to another one!!
Incredible how technology keeps on advancing.
is rooting for sony in this console war, I don't want gaming to turn into another microsoft created junkyard littered with underpowered consoles from a corporation that is ALL TOO HAPPY to sell you refurbished PC architectures with a fancy GPU slapped on top to make it look next gen but in reality doesn't provide any next gen play.
You know who you are. "We live in 3d! What is this crap?" You didn't even LOOK at the article. And some of you are thinking in a tiny little box. "Why would we want to age things?" Use your imagination. Adding the potential for the passage of time in an environment creates a malleable world that goes beyond mere collision detection... which is basically what 90% of the recent GTA's have been. Add "time" qualities to your models/textures and you can generate a realistic house-fire... for example... where wood burns and turns to ash, and loses it's structural strength and things collapse. (Of course, you could just be happy with a silly flame sprite animating the same thing and then chorograph the same destruction, but that's fake and always the same.)
Obviously Kojima-san won't do such a thing but just imagine you literally seeing Solid Snake rapidly age because of Foxdie while you're playing. The walls crumbling down and soldiers that were killed by Gekkous or by other soldiers literally rotting and insects and such creeping on top of them. There are a lot of ideas that one can think of to use this neat feature.
Yes, I totally agree with you. If the PS3 can really do this fully, in an actual game this would be incredible. Texture warping means such things as the ability to actually create holes in things like bullet holes, or the aforementioned burning house actually turning to ash eventually. Reportedly, the real tech demo for Killzone this past GDC included footage where bullets ripped through walls, and in so doing, allowed light to stream through. If they were doing it using these particular procedural techniques, think about what that means. This would not be just some effect, it would actually create changes to the structure of things. Say enough bullets or RPG's rip through something, it will tear apart due to its real structure, not because of some predefined Broken texture. I believe this may be part of the key to what was recently demonstrated in DMM (digital molecular matter) that tech going into the new Force Unleashed game. In the demo, the wood splinters realistically and differently depending on where it is hit. But see, in that game it seems only to apply to physics, whereas perhaps (I'm conjecturing of course) in Killzone it affects lighting and shadowing as well. I find it rather intriguing that the KZ developers are scheduled to discuss their engine at the Developer's conference in Europe after E3...The only reason one would need to discuss their engine is if something amazing is being done with it..We will all find out in less than three weeks just what that is.
You mean like Carmack's amazing discussion on "MexaTexturing" in Quake wars? Or how about Rare's rendering discussion at GDC about Viva Pinata. Wait, you mean like Time Sweeny's discussion three hour discourse on lighting in UE3. People discuss their engines every damn day in the development community. And, gasp(!), 4D is ANIMATED FREAKIN textures. You know, like the ones that make water effects in games? But dub something 4D and it is the future...only available on PS3! I hate this forum a little more each and every day.
absolutely NO Wii’s! LOL Anyway, that was very interesting. Hummmmmm, it seems the possibilities may actually be limitless thankx to the CEll Processor. :)
ImWithStupid - 26 Minutes ago PM Track Ignore 29.1 - which is why any intelligent person is rooting for sony in this console war, I don't want gaming to turn into another microsoft created junkyard littered with underpowered consoles from a corporation that is ALL TOO HAPPY to sell you refurbished PC architectures with a fancy GPU slapped on top to make it look next gen but in reality doesn't provide any next gen play. Agree(3) | Disagree(0) | Report ^^Sure whatever you say buddy.
The article proofs people believe in whatever they want to.
There are 11 dimension's based on Quantum theory and the PS3 is not a Quantum computer! It's going to be awhile before any of us witness true Quantum computer power and when that happens then we will be able to see the other dimensions if our brains allow it! I love were Ken is trying to go but if the PS3 were a Quantum computer then it would of already figured out a cure for just about everything! The PS3 is a great machine though with potential down the road like in 2009 or 10 where it will by that time totally all make since! You see the PS3 is this device from the future that can't be turned on with the fuel of the past! So in other words people are just going to have to wait to get the proper fuel to ignite it! Notice even though I'm a 360 fan I never was bashed the PS3!
Procedural texture generation is not 4D and PS3 is not better at it for any reason. It still is a 2D (or Pseudo-3D.) shader effect and 360's unified shaders + EDram post processing effects + tiled rendering + better development tools still make 360 faster in it. Plus the larger operational memory and smaller embebed OS provide more freedom to generate textures. (No, the Blu-Ray doesn't have any relevancy in this matter.) There is no such thing as "Hardware Accelerated Procedural Generation" .. and much Less "4D" generation in PS3 or Cell. Cell is a "smarter/slower" GPU .. (or a dumber/faster CPU.) .. it can do complex shaders with a bit less effort (But considering a GPU is at least 15x faster then he is.. less effort is not enough to be a decent GPU.) It doesn't do anything "new". The only thing worth reading in the article is the proposal of what would be a 4D game .. and it's only a "possibility" .. not a fact .. not news.
Good job ignoring the article. The author points out that procedural texture generation which can update in real time is EXACTLY what 4D is. If you are going to ignore the author's own definition, then whatever else you say regarding this subject should also be ignored. Remember, these are not things which we have yet seen in a game, so until it is proved that this concept is actually impossible to employ THIS generation, maybe you should quit the bashing and wait and see.
I didn't ignored what he said about "realtime updating" the proceduraly generated texture .. but it's TEXTURE .. everything would need to be proceduraly generated in order to be "simulated enough" to be a 4D game. It doesn't matter you can go back in time and open a hole in the car roof and see the hole is there in the future more degraded. It needs plants that grow with the sun rays to grow inside the car using the hole .. it needs rain that pours in and fills the car or not depending if the hole is there. Aging texture generation is COSMETIC ..it doesn't change the game concept at all.
Yes, this would apply to what you are saying, but it would also apply to smaller increments in time, like the amount of time passed between when a bullet enters a texture and exits that same texture, and the resulting warping that said texture just went through. While yes, a full 4D game would affect absolutely everything, this concept can be scaled to whatever level the hardware can support. This is the point of the author. He says that the 360 and PS3 can both use this, but his claim is that the PS3 can actually go much further with this than the 360. Edit: Thnx ERQ, a bubble for ya
@ Rybnik ...good point.