Check out the life-to-date and year-to-date hardware figures for the PS3, 360, Wii, DS, PSP, and PS2 updated from the most recent NPD sales report.
The DS has just been fantastic since the first version of the system launched. I would have never guessed that the DS brand would be this successful when Nintendo announced the system. I wonder what kind of year it'll have next year - Another iteration of the handheld, the DSi XL, will be out in North America early next year.
The DS does great but the software is telling when great games like GTA: China Town Wars for instance sell like crap, with over 100 million units you would think at least some of those people are into mature rated games?!? Great numbers with the PlayStation family, especially the PS2, I'm surprised those things sell this much! The 360 isn't doing that bad either, I expect it will reach 20 million easily before 2010 is over. The PS3 will also go up to maybe 12-13 million by the end of 2010? Great software for both system, tons of stuff to help move consoles. :)
Indeed, it is truly amazing how well the PS2 has continued to sell. I am also surprised to see that the lifetime sales of the Wii in North America isn't too much greater than the sales of the 360.
Lifetime-to-date PS2: 44,981,318 DS: 35,416,758 Wii: 23,324,381 Xbox 360: 17,320,986 PSP: 16,182,836 PS3: 9,768,696
People wonder why 360 games sell so much more in the US than PS3 games and call the PS3 a "failure" becuase of it yet they almost always seem to forget that: 1. The 360 leads 2:1 in NA 2.NA is the only thing keeping the 360 from being outsold (even with a ONE year head start. Seriously people, use your heads. A good example is MW2. It sold 4 million on the 360 and 2 million on the PS3. Given that the 360 leads 2-1 that means that MW2 sold, technically, the same on both consoles.
@Saaking Your also forgetting the UK you know the 3rd biggest gaming market in the world... Where the 360 completely storms the PS3 most likely more so then it does in America. I know alot of tech heads and have alot of mates that enjoy gaming. I can name 3 friends that own a ps3. And at least 15 friends/people I know that own a 360. Everyone always forgets how important the UK is to the console market. Its almost as important as Japan and where the PS3 is destroying the 360 in Japan, the 360 is destroying the PS3 in the UK Microsoft knows that all to well. You can pick up a new 360 here for 109.99 a new PS3 is going to cost you 249.99. In the UK the 360 is better value then the PS3 unlike America and the rest of Europe/Asia. I know the PS3 is catching up due to the rest of Europe and Asia just though I would correct you though. Maybe next time you should do a little research before you preach to people about using there heads.
Um, I'm not talking about the UK though. I'm talking about game sales here in NA. People bash the PS3 for not doing the same as the 360, but forget that the 360 leads 2-1. It's OBVIOUSLY going to make bigger numbers. Get my point?
the point isn't that a single game is selling 2-1 on the consoles it's that the number of games in general. http://www.neogaf.com/forum... (page 42 has the top 20 games) 4 of the top 10 selling games in novemeber were 360 titles, and 7 of the top 20, compared to 2 and 4 respectively for the ps3, 8 for the wii. That's double the number of games, selling at double the amount. the total sales for 360 games versus ps3 games is much greater then the 2-1 your implying. it's not like this will persuade developers to drop the ps3 for development. You shouldn't really care as long as you're buying an enjoying games.
@Saaking Well clearly you just edited your first post from saying the US is the only place the 360 outsells the PS3.... But whatever I will let that slide. Fact is your talking on technicalities think activison care that the PS3 version only sold 2 million in the US because the installer base is half as big? Nope they couldn't give a stuff when it comes down to business sense the 360 sold twice as many Modern warfare 2 games as the PS3. All your doing is giving us reasons why it didn't sell as much on the PS3. Doesn't matter if them reasons are correct modern warfare 2 still only sold half as well on the PS3 as it did on the 360. Let me make it nice and simple Modern Warfare 2 on the 360 outsold the PS3 version 2 to 1 FACT! Reasons why purely speculation.
MW2 sold 4.2 million on the 360 and 1.87 million on the ps3. Which works out to 2.2:1. So... yeah. A good example all right.
It's also nice of you to round the numbers in favor of the PS3, but whatever. The real numbers are there for people interested in factual data. @rampant: Not only that, but the percentage of the 360 userbase that owns MW2 relative to PS3 is higher as well. Furthmore, if we are to believe all the fanboys spelling doom and gloom over RROD, then the penetration rate for MW2 (and most other games on top 20 list) just skyrocketed!!!
here in australia and same for newzealand
Your argument about the 2-1 sales is a true statement... larger install base is a big part of stronger 360 game sales. However, you haven't made any effort to show us why that matters whatsoever. Game publishers and developers don't make money based on what percentage of an install base buys their game. They make money for the raw number of copies sold, pure and simple. So when a game sells twice as much on 360, regardless of the reason, the pubs/devs ARE seeing double the revenue from the 360 than the PS3, and depending on development costs and other varables, around double the profit. That is what is important. People "ignore" this little fact you bring up in every sales article, because there is no reason to care about it.
....no one said jack about the ps2 being out a FULL YEAR ahead of the 360 and game cube so to try to use that as an excuse now is retarded. Second, percentages tell the whole story, not raw numbers. Take MW2 in NA... PS3 1.87 mil X340 4.2 mil Number of systems in NA Xbox 360: 17,320,986 PS3: 9,768,696 % of PS3 owners that bought MW2: about 19% % of 360 owners that bought MW2: about 24% So, you see, if it were a true 2:1 like ya'll say the percentage would be equal, not off by 5%. To be equal to the 360, the ps3 would have had to have sold just over 2.34 million (give or take a 100k or so) to get thta magical 2:1 ratio and we are off by about 474k, which near half a mil is a big number. Also, the people talking about 1 mil banned consoles, it was only 600k and though i could see rounding up a few thousand, or even 10k, rounding up 400k is fracking retarded. Finally, you are assuming those 600k all bought new consoles and seem to think that they are useless when you can still play single player. Ya'll act like the banned consoles no longer work and cant play games at all.
So you mean to say the 360 attach rate is even better than the numbers show? That is pretty amazing then.
@ Menech UK is not 3rd market it's 4th after germany. ?And germany is PS3 domain. Also don't consider UK as the biggest nation in Europe. erope consist of more than 40 countries and UK isn't biggest at all. Uk in europe is only 360 based. France,Germany,Spain, Italy, Poland, Portugal are all ps3 based.
The PS3 has so many games launched in 2 months time for example that it's extremely impressive the percentage is off only by 5 percent. I don't know how can it be possible for you guys not to think about facts of life. If I just bought 3-4 exclusive games in a couple of months it's more than likely I don't have money to buy MW2 even if I wanted to. I've been playing Ratchet and Uncharted 2 and I'm not at 100% on neither of those. I have a family to support so my time spent gaming is limited to a couple of hours per day. I haven't even bought Demon's Souls or GOW collection yet so why do you have to wonder why the percentage is off by 5% I just bought PJ Shooter as well so That even further postpones my MW2 purchase. In addition to everything I just said I'm still playing all the older great games Battlefield BC and 1943, Hot Shots golf, Red Alers 3, Singstar and Agarest for example. Like I said it's extremely impressive the percentage is off only by 5 percent for MW2. We are little older compared to you x360 folks. We have a family and a career. Boy I wish I would still live in my parents house with little to no worries in life whatsoever. It would be heaven if all I wanted to do was play games. I'm happy with my status in life and I'm happy with my gaming. If you find happiness in pointing fingers on sales then so be it. For me it's TOTALLY irrelevant in the end. I just don't want to listen to you brats trying to be smart and laughing at us adults for reasons that are so OBVIOUS.
@Perkel Ermmm sorry but your wrong, It's true that people original thought german overtook the UK but that information was proven false and asked to be ignored. Nice try though and I know the rest of Europe like the PS3, The 360 is more expensive and closer to the price of the PS3 in the rest of Europe. I have nothing against the PS3 selling well I was just correcting a mong, he said that said the US is the only place where the 360 is ahead. Before editing his post to save himself looking retarded.. Evidence: http://www.computerandvideo... Evidence: http://www.independent.co.u... One of them links is only 10 days old from the biggest news paper in the UK, Unless something suddenly changed UK is still firmly 3rd. And to be honest it doesn't matter how many countries in Europe are PS3 "based", America's market makes them all look like chicken feed expect for the UK and possibly Germany it seems. Not that I care to be honest I own both consoles and I like the PS3 better. Am just not pathetic enough to let it delude me from the truth PS3 is firmly in 3rd place and its gona stay there at least until 2011. @below Yeah because the banned 360 owners couldn't of just saved there banned console to played chipped games offline and bought a PS3, Moron... And even if your deluded little fantasy where true it would of only helped the numbers by as much as 2 percent if you take into account the attract rate. That's if everyone of them 600k banned bought a 360 back right away and not one of them bought a PS3, Seriously the crap that you PS3 fanboys type do you even believe it yourself you can't be that stupid Right? Right? Someone please save what little hope I have for humanity and tell me they don't believe the crap they type... And honest I though the reason the 360 sells more games is because there owners leave the house to earn money to buy games ya know? Makes more sense to me then sitting at home all day like the PS3 fanboys on this site do thinking of pathetic none logical 360 conspiracy theory's. But hey what do I know this is N4G right, I will make more friends simply typing: Death to Microsoft 360 owners burn in hell!!!!!!!!!!
360 2:1 in us eh? Bannings have helped with that number definitely! But yeah thats why games sell more on 360 in US and when they don't well.. Enough said.
you are trying to act like an adult yet you didnt get the point i was trying to make and you are arguing about videogames. Furthermore, you dont know me or what my family life is so to talk sh!t is pretty immature. I am willing to bet that I am older than you are. ANd having this dumbazz attitude that somehow PS3 gamers are older and more mature and all have families shows how immature you are as well. I honestly couldn't care less if you are buying a good amount of games instead of using that money on your family. Me personally, I'm a gamer and own all 3 systems. Notice I didnt hate on any of them I was just pointing out numbers and correcting a glaring error being made here and the fact you pun it the way you did shows what a super duper mature individual you truly are (sarcasm). Bottom line, take your wannabe elitist azz out of here please. And really, I dont care about you or your "family" because just like I have no way to prove anything I say to be real, neither do you. Also, if you are so up on family and they are so important to you, why are you (Assuming you are in the US) on a vid game blog at anywhere between almost 2 am pst and 5 am est? THen again, I guess big man of the hose would rather play video games all weekend long instead of spending time with the wife and kids you SAY you have. I guess the old saying is true. One should never argue with a raging idiot since they will bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience
Got any evidence to prove that the 360 really does "storm" the PS3 in the UK? Because I don't really call a sample of 15 people proof for an entire country of 6 billion. Yes, chances are the 360 is outselling the PS3 in the UK, but I haven't seen any reliable sources proving this, and I have a feeling that the PS3 is doing much better than people think.
WOW you're defensive. Did I offend you? Just look at most played games on xbl. Halo and COD. Halo especially wreeks of teenage angst. There's no way to get around that period. The fact even strengthens when we look at how many players are online all the time. Kids love Halo so kids playHalo. Kids do play a lot more than adults do once again because of obvious reasons. FYI I live in Finland and our kids 4yo and 6yo are outside playing right now. I'm 28yo.
"Got any evidence to prove that the 360 really does "storm" the PS3 in the UK? Because I don't really call a sample of 15 people proof for an entire country of 6 billion." Not to be picky here and your argument is valid but what COUNTRY has 6 BILLION people in it? Unless you consider the entire world population is living in one country, but just spread around the world....?
I thought the US was the only country with a population of 6 billion; Because a lot of people on this site think its the whole world! PS3 world wide 10,000,000 + 4,000,000 + Europe 10,000,000-> E3 2 yrs into life est. 6 months of sales plus early Christmas sales 3,000,000 = 27,000,000 360 world wide 17,000,000 + 1,000,000 + Europe MS recently confirmed 360 passed 10,000,000 = 28,000,000 Edit: Forgot to factor in post price drop for Europe on PS3. Must be selling like hotcakes... love me some hotcakes
Ahh fudge. My bad ahaha. 60 million*
PM Track Ignore 1.1 - The DS does great but the software is telling when great games like GTA: China Town Wars for instance sell like crap, with over 100 million units you would think at least some of those people are into mature rated games?!? Oh You must not have looked at the PSP sales of China Town wars. It bombed worse on PSP.. I guess PSP fans hate mature titles as well then.. Next time you want to pull up some BS at least make sure you know what you are talking about... You cant just pull up one game as proof of something. Especially when that same game bombed on other platforms with sales that were far worse
Chinatown wars is a decent looking game for DS. It is a cheap port for PSP. PSP has 2 GTA games that b1tchslap it all over!
Interesting numbers for the US, 360 year headstart was 5.5mil when the ps3 launched, now its at 7.5mil ahead in the us, so outsold the ps3 about 2mil since ps3 launched in the US. Japan ps3 easily outsells the 360, not sure what the exact numbers, but what I find interesting about all this sales data stuff is that if you look at vg gap chartz (I know its vg chartz, but they do correct their LTD numbers, when better data is released) 360 is at 35mil, while ps3 is at 29mil, a difference of 6mil worldwide which means considering the gap at launch,(360 released in all territories, so it was closer to about 7mil WW) BOTH CONSOLES HAVE SOLD ALMOST THE SAME AMOUNT OF HARDWARE WITH ONLY THE YEAR HEADSTART BEING THE DIFFERENCE IN SALES. Sure if you want to be really technical depending where you stand with other regions sales data, probably one or the other has sold 400-500k more than the other worldwide,(Euro numbers hard to get exact) but really thats not a huge win either way whoever might come out slightly better. This is good news for both camps, even with the heated competition both consoles are selling on par worldwide when its all said and done. Good time to be a gamer!
Hey kid, do you realize: +100m > +50m ....... right? "You must not have looked at the PSP sales of China Town wars. It bombed worse on PSP" It bombed worse on PSP, but the DS fanbase is 2 times bigger than PSP fanbase, so where is the logic here? Oh, there is not logic, OK then
First of all, what 1.30 said. Secondly, they advertised Chinatown Wars even worse on the PSP than on the DS. And they hardly advertised that one at all! Rockstar has no one but themselves to blame for poor sales.
If 360 has only sold 17,000,000 in its biggest territory, how the hell could it sell 18,000,000 in Japan and Europe knowing Japan is only 1 million and MS just announced having passed 10 mil in Europe? Oh yeah; Teh inphamous otherz region! VGChartz is so garbage it is unbelievable. Way to way overtrack!
Congratulations. on topic/ Excellent numbers for both Nintendo & Microsoft.
I thought that the 360 sold more because of... 1 million banned consoles.. rrod rebuys.. e74 rebuys MS reporting shipped numbers.. So that must mean that there are only a few more xboxes than ps3's. So the software shouldn't be 2:1. Which one is it?
You are assuming that every 360 owner bought MW2 and every PS3 owner bought MW2. They didn't. There are a greater number of PS3 owners that realize MW2 is mind numbing, corridor shooter, full of realism inaccuracies and brain dead AI so tightly scripted it can't catch it's breath. PS3 owners have a plethora of choices, not just one. As was stated this weekend after the new SOCOM maps were released, try the same brain dead run and gun tactics in Uncharted 2 and SOCOM that are used by 13 year old kisds in MW2 and see how long you last. Not long, not long at all.
That going from the powerhouse of the last generation the playstation brand is now absolute 3rd in the US. That fact proves that MS have managed what they were after - to discount the Playstation as the go-to brand for gaming. No matter how many sales figures get published, and aside from the Wii, this generation will be remembered as the one that Sony lost outright their massive incredible lead of having their primary system under the tv. MS have already managed more than their expectations - a larger install base than their competitor in the US. Sony have achieved theirs - a blu ray player in millions of homes. Anything other than that is fanboy rhetoric.
"try the same brain dead run and gun tactics in Uncharted 2 and SOCOM that are used by 13 year old kisds in MW2 and see how long you last. Not long, not long at all." Not long at all because anyone with half a brain will stop playing that garbage game within 5 minutes. Socom Confrontation could definitively go up there among the top 10 worst games this gen.
Nice numbers across all platforms, especially DS. But I have to hand it to PS2. Almost 10 years later and it still sells strong.
Can someone explain WHY the DISAGREES Is NOT a lie, the PS2 still selling, you can't disagree with that Unbelievable lol
We Bots didn't have any games to play this year, but at least we had sales. ;D
lmao thats just US and one year lead but you're still cool :)
it can stay that way for all i care, it makes me happy knowing bots like youself are missing out on so much which the playstation 3 offers disagrees? bubble up for everyone but the bots
IN before a bot cheers even though ps3 has beaten 360 every year in WORLDWIDE sales. *looks up* oh wait
by the look of that comment it seems you are 10 years old, why did you buy a gaming console? to look at sales? the PS3 is 2.5 million ahead of the 360 for this year. So you bots didnt have any games and no sales as well.
Do you think that is because 1 million of you got banned by your father ( MS )? Then they had to go out and buy another Xbox to play the games they still have? Being for real here. One million banned Xbox users gone. What did they buy next? To the person that disagree's with my factual post. Here, maybe you are unaware? http://www.informationweek....
But you can't play sales. I don't know why you are even saying that. I played games on my PS3 and my 360, so there were definitely games for both systems in 2009.
good reply, as a gamer.
this console buis is way 2 serious lol pretty sure bud was jus makin a funny n even if he wasnt its still a laugh.
shadow women did you read what you wrote..you know how stupid you sound..seriously when did you stop becoming a gamer and started working for microsoft?? its so sad when someone can admit their console has no games but are happy with sales...is this really where the generation of games is heading cause if it is than im done with gaming.. i rather have the best quality in games than have sales..do i work for microsoft??? no...do i get a cut from what they make?? no..so wtf would i care about sales..dont ever call yourself a gamer cause you obviously dont care for games..360 owners should be ahsamed of your @ss...go play sales while i play games... ps3 #1
I'm a bot and I had games to play. The games I can remember playing this year are Prototype, Halo Wars, GTA IV: The Lost and Damned, Shadow Complex, Resident Evil 5, Street Fighter IV, Borderlands, Halo 3: ODST, Left 4 Dead 2, Dragon Age: Origins, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, GTA IV: The Ballad of Gay Tony, Trials HD, Sonic the Hedgehog 3 (LIVE Arcade), Sonic and Knuckles (Live Arcade), Assassin's Creed II, Forza Motorsport 3, Batman: Arkham Asylum, 1 vs. 100 (Xbox LIVE), and select other games that I still enjoy from other years, such as Gears of War 2, Oblivion, Fallout 3, and Modern Warfare 1. And I sure can't wait to play BioShock 2, Mass Effect 2, Alan Wake, Splinter Cell: Conviction, Brink, Crackdown 2, Halo: Reach, Fable III, and possibly Metal Gear Rising (I hated MGS4) next year.
I think people are disagreeing with you because you are assuming they ran out and bought a new xbox 360. How do you know that? Where is your proof that they did buy a new 360 and not a Wii or PS3?
Did you just not assume as well? I asked a question with a ? mark. If I had a bunch of games for a console. Now the console is dead. It's really cheap to get another one. I might go that route over say buying a totally new console and start over on the game collection. Tell me that doesn't make sense..... More so if this was the console I loved over the other two anyway. If my PS3 went dead. There is no way I would just run off and buy another brand. I'm so used to the Sony console ( 15 years now ). This is where I was going with those that feel the same way about the Xbox. The games they still have are for it, their friends are on XBox live, etc,etc... They replaced the console with a new one more than not.
Poor droids... How did the Playstation brand go from first to last in one gen? "we don't play sales" what else are you going to say "we play last place" sales are the number 1 sign on how healthy a system is. Poor sales = failure and devs/pubs start jumping ship kinda like what are doing with the PS3
Whose jumping ship? I bet out of all of you xbox only fans none of you graduated at the top of your class if at all cause your all a bunch of dipsh!ts. Why can't we get a world wide number total to shut everybody. Especially you bots. What crap argument will you douches come up with when the ps3 passes your xbox with your precious sales? Will it be psn is so far behind live? Which even at the moment is neck and neck. So what will it be? I think it will be something like wait till next gen the ps4 will be done. Just admit defeat now or get a ps3. There's no use looking like such a drone banging the same beat on a drum the rest of your gaming days.
we play games, you play sales!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do u get a cut from ms profit you loser, since u play sales.
Basically even YTD numbers for PS3 and 360 in the US. Heavy competition between these two is only going intensify now. Gamers/Customers FTW!
Very true. The competition is good for everybody.
I wonder what will happen with the ds2.
Thats astonishing and it's still selling like crazy... They need to kill the PS2 now though, it's the only way to get these gamers to move on the the PS3... as For MS, That years headstart has done them well but how many of those are re-buys and refurbished? I was certain they'd have hit the 20 million mark in the states already, and Sony's PS3 is doing great, selling faster than the 360 at this point in it's life time. great numbers for all 3 next gen consoles. this christmas will be strong for all of them, especially Sony.
"That years headstart has done them well but how many of those are re-buys and refurbished?" And the same thing could be said about the 1st 20 million PS2's. I don't see why Sony get's a free pass but MS is the only one accussed of this.
You are only partially correct lowcarb. Yes there were failures on PS2's but the percentage amount of those broken do not equal that of the 360's. Which is why it is not an issue because what some fail to mention is that the %'s were still within an acceptable industry standard. The only reason why it "seemed" like a lot is because it is still in the "Millions" 2-3% of 125 Million is 2.5-3.75 Million ~ PS2 33+% of 34 Million is 11 Million+ ~ 360 THAT is why MS will never get a pass and they should never either. They are not within an acceptable industry standard like it's competitors. But as to the topic about NPD sales (or sales in general as I prefer the world wide stage as a true descriptor of trends & reality personally)...people can say what they want and pick and choose what information they need to placate to their "opinion/view", but the fact remains the PlayStation line of products as a whole does a lot better than some that desperately try to have others believe...(certain media outlets, misinformed & biased fanboys...bruceongames etc)
Bubbles for the shot at bruceongames. I hate that guy. His bias is more apparent than the combined employee body weight of Valve's staff.
I know people may choose the $99 PS2 over the $200 Wii but they should just stop support for it before 2011. It will be 10 years already... just how the PS1 stopped being supported after 10 years, kill it, then give us full backwards compatibility on all PS3s, and you will soon see a lot of PS2 people finally buying a PS3.
and the thing must be really cheap to produce so if people are still buying them, I don't see why sony should stop producing them. I don't think it'll actually increase sales of the ps3 all that much if sony stops producing the ps2. People buying a ps2 are doing it for outsides reasons, like an old one has died(and buy old i mean like 6+ years), or as a cheap dvd player, or because they just want to try some ps2 classics. Most likely they've either already own a newer console, or already own(ed) a ps2.
ps2 has not been dropped because of sonys 10 year rule and because it is still making a profit(albeit a small one), once the 10 year cycle is up the ps2 will be dropped and ps2 games will be available on PSN that play on the ps3.
PS2 is a money maker and helps support the PS3/PSN at the moment, they would be foolish to kill it now.
is to see the numbers mid way in 2010 since Sony has a line up for that start of the year thats unheard of. March alone will be hell.
...MS has a good line up as well with Mass Effect 2, Splinter Cell, and Alan Wake. Though only 3 games that's what sony had this past year with the only big games in the first like 4 months or so being inFamous and KZ2. Considering that GT5 is now being pushed to the summer for the US then the PS3 has only what, GOW3 and FF13 which is also on the 360. Not being a douche here but, other than GOW3, what games do sony have coming out say the first 4 months of next year?
To answer your question: Sony exclusives for the 1st four months of 2010 other than GOW III: 1. MAG 2. Modnation Racers 3. White Knight Story 4. Heavy Rain 5. Yakuza 3 6. Eye Pet The real question is what does Microsoft have to offer in the first 4 months of the year other than the multiplatform titles you listed?
I know you will say PC but they are still ms CONSOLE exclusive because really, most people consider if a game to be available on one console but not the other, it is exclusive and lets face it, with like ME2 do you REALLY think that a good chunk of the sales will be on the PC? I mean come on, lets say in it's first week is does 2 mil, I dont think more than maybe 150k would be on PC. So yea, I dont care what logic anyone uses, if you CANT play it on the ps3 and the only CONSOLE you can play it on is the 360, then it is CONSOLE exclusive. I swear to god the ps3 fanboys never said this crap last gen when they were ps2 fanboys. If a game was xbox an pc only, you NEVER heard anyone, even ps2 fanboys, say the game was not exclusive. Also, SOME ps3 fanboys are hypocritical because some games like Final Fantasy 14, are going to be available on the PC as well yet they still trumpet the game as being exclusive. I am not saying you are bro cause you answered my question in a nice manner except calling the games I called out as multiplat ant let's face it, they are not. EDIT: Forgot to add though, I should have said BIG exclusives cause on that list, I would say only MAG, maybe Yakuza, and Heavy rain are the only BIG ones.