Koji Igarashi, who has been the producer of many Castlevania titles, has commented on the state of 2-D games and how he perceives it as only being acceptable on the DS.
2-D games have definitely been accepted on the DS (Might and Magic: Clash of Heroes is my latest favorite 2-D game on the system, by the way). But I wish companies would take more risks with 2-D. Muramasa: The Demon Blade proved that such a style can work on consoles.
2D games are welcome anywhere, but I don't want major developers working on 2D games because there would be lesser 3D epic games. There is room for 2D games to give me a break from being tired of playing all these 3D games, so 95% of games should still stick to 3D.
Lots of 2D games there.
I still love 2-D games as long as they are well... interesting.... If EarthBound for snes or Megaman X or.... anything around those lines came out just now for the first time ever. I would be all over that.
It's not on DS.
No, it's not 2D. SF4 is a 3D fighting game with sidescroller view.
Works really well with 2D. Wario Shake it was very good, and looked pretty good too. I don't feel it really has enough oomph to push 3D that is up to todays standards. A few titles look nice, but it's not the norm.
The DS is one of the few that 2D games flourish, but its not the only one. The Wii can also produce some amazing retail 2D games.
Sorry but PixelJunk games are amazing and I love tham on my PS3
Braid Trine geometry wars superstardust the list goes on. I think its obviously accepted and successful on all the major consoles. Just most of these games are downloads :) ?? Did he just forget about Xbox Live Arcade, Playstation Store, and the Virtual Console. ??
*Puts PSP (which is playing Castlevania:SotN) and PS3 (PixelJunk Shooter) on pause. Pray tell.....why is that?
becuase in the abundance of 2D games the majority of them do well on the DS. You will still see the random 2D game on the other consoles but the DS seems to be the platform where it can support many 2D titles in droves and they all sell well at full price and not the downloadable price range of 5-10 dollars. That's all he's saying. What he's not saying, however, is that you shouldn't be allowed to make 2D games on other platforms. You can and people do so no worries
And I don't think he means XBLA/PSN games, more like retail games.
Oh, Igarashi. Pixeljunk titles, Shadow Complex, and NSMB Wii say hello! The PSP is made for great 2D games too (Hammerin' Hero comes to mind), and the more 3d-controlling games on there hurt my hands on that stupid analog nub. Also, what is it with older creators and their fear of serious downloadable games? A great Castlevania game needs only the support of XBLA, PSN, and/or a Wii disc to be accepted by the globe as an immense and enjoyable 2D game. The limits on size there are much better than the limits of size, graphics, and sound on a DS card. Great Castlevania games haven't been accepted on those systems because they haven't been made yet.
Not to mention other games like the recently released Mega Man, Flow, anything Pixel Junk. I admire your desire to want to push the software, Igarashi; but I would also say that if well done, and really pushing the GPU and abilities of each console, I think it can be acceptable in your eyes.
I need to try PixelJunk Shooter
Megaman 9 (on PS360), Shadow Complex, Bionic Commando, Rocket Knight Adventures, Contra/Castlevania Rebirth tell me otherwise. I dont know what they are waiting for. Shadow Complex showed there IS a market for these kinds of games as downlodable games. MAKE A 2.5D Castlevania game in HD NOW. Its easy money damn it! DO IT!
Street Fighter 4 is 3D but is a side-scroller fighter. Shadow Complex is 3D but is a side-scroller shooter.
@above: You've all proven his point pretty much by listing a bunch of downloadable games that are sold for much less. 2D games have been relegated to downloads as if they're naturally inferior and not worth as much. Plus look at Blazblue, complete flop. One of the best fighting games out there.
Flop ? WTH ? it exceeded expectations and sold out quite early and often . it's a niche game that outperformed . Sf4 selling 2 millions was one thing and oddity , it was the official return of the most known fighting game . Usually the rest of the time the franchises to do millions consistantly are only Tekken and Soul calibur ., and the rest struggling far far below , be they 2d or 3d . Blazblue is released at a time where even though fighting games came back full force , it's still a widely marginal genre that only attract a few fanatics like myself . The rest of the world wouldnt care , or would make the mistake of buying sf4/tekken/sc4/XXX game once everywhile , complain that it's too hard and time consuming , would resell it quickly and just go buy some UFC/wrestling game .
Hey, it only sold 400K which is apparently a flop, especially considering the cost of HD development and that according to Capcom 2D is more expensive than 3D. It means it was outsold by flops such as Star Ocean IV and The Last Remnant, which are niche as well, with an incompatible userbase. It'll be interesting to see how well the DSiware Blazblue game will do, although it is a 3D title. They likely won't release numbers though, they never do with downloadables.
Uh ? Now i have to wonder if you're just kidding , it's not always transparent online Star ocean was never a niche game . I dont remember how well SO1 peformed , but it was pretty good back then , and Star ocean 2 and 3 were only behind the obvious main Final fantasy games and Dragon Quest . It used to sell millions . S04 only failed to meet those usual expectations on 360 . And Last remnant was never as a niche neither , it was a big push for a new big franchise , a big push also toward a western audience .. but again on the wrong platform for japan , and with a western audience that didnt care much anyway . As for blazblue its cost wasnt that big . For starters the backgrounds and many effects are 3d . And the animations arent as detailled , they skips a lots of frames for speed impressions . Regardless of BB's awesome quality , it's animation is hardly near the like of SF3 or later sf2 hd and kofXII . BB's sprites arent even that detailled either ... half of it's defects and flaws are masked by the hd resolution , and the speed of the game ... but if you take the numerous full sized sprites , either fixed or animated , it's easy to notice . Those factors helped considerably the developpement . What capcom mentions as incredibly costly are projects such as sf2 HD remix and king of fighters XII . Both entirely drawn and fully animated .
I was being half-facetious about it flopping, it didn't flop if they made money(which they likely did) but it didn't light up the charts either. SO4 wasn't the best example but the JRPG is in decline with no console JRPG selling a million yet this generation(two days and that changes). SO4 did particularily bad as well(worse than TLR even). But even compare Blazblue to Madworld, Madworld has sold 350K now and is regarded as a flop. But you outlined something when you said that SO4 was on the wrong platform, is that not what Igarashi is kind of saying? that Blazblue may have been on the wrong platform, the PSP version is a port but I think if was pushed as a PSP game it would have done better, even with the severely declined and underperforming PSP market.
"But you outlined something when you said that SO4 was on the wrong platform, is that not what Igarashi is kind of saying?" i think that "Baka-akaB " is saying that SO4 was on the wrong platform because it was a game not made for the target audience of the platform .. I believe SO4 would have done better if they didn't try to publish a JRpg ( done with all Jrpg clichés you can find ) on a market that doesn't care about it . And then it flopped. As for Igarashi, i just think this a rant against the 3D market that prevent Full 2d games to exist (as retail games).As a gamer what should matter is the core of the game not the fact that it's 2d or 3d .. But on that point i'm in the minority ...EVERYONE WANT 3D! Also the Jrpgs are NOT in décline Few competitors came to challenges the masses in this generation and so far when they did it was a relative success (if not a complete succès ). So far , tales of vesperia is a success , FF is looking good , no suikoden YET , star ocean flopped because of bad decisions ,no atelier games published yet in US , no breath fo fire , no valkyrie profile (YET) ,dragon quest sales are strong so are monster hunter's ..and the list goes on .. THE jrpg genre isn't in decline ..they haven't started to come
@spoonyredmage I can only completely disagree with everything you just said for various reasons : 1. fighting games never do better on portable than their home consoles counterpart... never . The idea that is should have been instead on psp is ludicrous at best . The market for fighting game is at home or arcades , with only a portion having fun on handheld with it . I do that it will get a psp version , and that it's already even remote playable on psp ... what i disagree with is that idea that it should have been psp instead for a bigger success . 2. I feel that you are just being a bit coy here . So4 is on the wrong platform because well it is the wrong platform for a jrpg market in japan .. as demonstrated by history , sales and popular opinion . The decline excuse doesnt work . I insist on the fact that SO has always been one of the top 5 jrpg sellers whenever released . Had So4 been released on the machine people assumed as the de facto "jrpg land" right from each console's launch it would have performed better . Had so4 been released on ps2 or ps3 it would have easily done a million around it's launch . Hell one look at sales of the remakes on psp confirms that it was a matter of most jrpg fans , hardcore or not , not having the console s04 was released on . 3. Imo you got some pretty wrong and spiffy comparisons since the start of the conversation . You seems to decide that games that arent niches are , and that when they are niche games , then it's all the same .. Why should Blazblue care if Madworld sold more , less or not ? The only concerns it would have would be in comparison to this year's offering of fighting games ... and direct concurrent such as sf4 and kof xii . And the results are so far great . Stick with genres and their history . Fighting games have been DEAD in the general public's eyes for years . Unlike action adventure games . Madworld failed to the hype set by other people ... but it was likely to outsell any small fighting game . "easy and more accessible" games such as tekken and soul calibur have been the few ones setting charts on fire with a blockbuster realisation , ad campaign , and budget . But core fighting games 2d and 3d alike such as some of the street fighter spin offs , snk spin offs , snk's main games , ARC Systemworks and their Guilty gear etc .. struggled a lot , and mostly sold to only a small and consistently shrinking fanbase ... It went so deep down and low that any anime casual fighting games , regardless of their qualities , such as naruto , dbz , sain seiya bleach etc would usually outsell most of those fighting game . At least until this year with sf2 hd emix , SF4 , Blazblue , mvc 2, tekken , and a bit before sc4 ... So yeah sorry but Blazblue actually highlighting the charts for some time even if short , selling to that amount and actually expending their fanbase is a big big success . So what if some actually very hyped action adventure games sells as much ? It seems only the current natural order of thing , with fighting game hardly the priority and driving force of the current industry . Hell why am i even arguing and what am i even arguing about here ? Yakuza 3 , an easily bigger title in popularity , and wich a quite huge budget , sold around 500-600k (albeit only on one platform) . Blazblue cost easily way less than any big title , and sold big titles numbers , and you're telling me it's supposed to be a flop or a big whoop of meh and nothing ? that's actually setting charts on fire and a lot of money in the bank .
not to really butt in yet when SO4 Internation Edition lauches we will see if the decline is real or if it was just the wrong platform. Most likely it'll sell well but only time will tell
Nah i'm not convinced we would be able to see it there . The game is expected but is no longer "fresh" imo , and some people might still got a grudge about it being multi . It will sell well i bet , but lost some of the impact and luster it might have had then . I dont care much mind you , day one purchase for me . Anyway i agree with redempteur ... people have been quick to call a big jrpg decline , when for so long nothing major was released . Then some big stuff like Lost odyssey , Tales of vesperia , Star Ocean 4 , and arguably Last remnant got released but already nerfed in japan by the platform of choice . However when a big gun get indeed released on a platform full of jrpg fans like Dragon Quest IX it easily shines and eat up charts . games from Atlus and NIS are consistently on the rise and selling better each game , like shin megami tensei and persona ... And let's not forget Demon soul's immense success even in the west Hell one could argue that the two tales on wii are getting nerfed by the choice of platform (AGAIN i'm talking sales figures , not their quality) but they are still doing ok . Seriously with : -the big titles at the right place selling great -small "indie and niche" games selling well -a huge market thriving on handheld for the lazy devs , even smaller devs , and some nice gift from levle 5 , square , capcom (monstur hunter anyone ?)etc ... - and the next final fantasy already a sure thing ... PLUS most of the major rpg series not even being released yet ... HOW the Fooshizzle do some guys manage to see a decline ?? There might be indeed when all things will be said and done ... but stop acting like Michael Patcher and analyzing data you dont have yet
1. I don't think because it's a fighter it would have done better on the PSP, I think because it's a 2D game it would have done better. It's nothing to do with being a fighting game. 2. JRPG market has declined, not one JRPG has sold a million on consoles, not on the PS3 either and Dragon Quest is the only franchise I'm aware of that has done better this gen than last. It's probably not in the top five by the way, Pokémon, FF, Dragon Quest, Kingdom Hearts and Golden Sun make the top five for average sales(I think, they all sell more than Star Ocean). 3. Madworld's not an action/adventure game, it's a brawler, a very niche brawler. Brawlers have been in worse shape than fighting games considering there's not multimillion selling brawler's out now. Plus you consider that Madworld was hyped but that Blazblue wasn't and also disregard Blazblue's stellar reviews. And fine don't argue that it wasn't a flop but don't pretend that it's a majorly successful game either, 400K is small numbers. @^: You're assuming that the PS3 is a repeat of the PS2 and you mentioned Tales of the Wii being held back by the platform but if we use the logic that the preceding console's sales idnicate the sales on the platform now then the Wii should do the best because Symphonia on the Gamecube is the only one to sell over one million.
Well now the best selling Tales of game was on the GC so the platform was right it's just that there have been 10 Tales of games and some very close to each other relase date wise. As far as not many jrpg being released I can only help but laugh because I'm a big handheld gamer and I can hardly keep up with all the jrpgs being released! wait a tick! developing a game on a handheld is not lazy developing -.- (though if I read too heavily into that statement I do apologize)
1. But it got everything to do with it ... Just show us fighting games , 2d if you want , selling better on psp or ds then ... 2. See above . See if sites like n4g , kotaku , vg24 etc etc were as prominent as now , you'd probably seeing back then , before final fantasy X gont released and ended an awful lack of jrpg on ps2 , articles of dooms with content about declines bla bla bla . Not enough big jrpgs ? Less sales .. let's talk when all the big ones are there . 3 . About pokemon and golden sun , this indeed my bad , but i was mentioning home consoles . but fine let's include them . Doesnt change the fact that Star ocean 2 it's basically more than a million on ps1 ... it was the 12th or 13rd best selling game of it's year , and easily above jrpgs not final fantasy and dragon quest . Star ocean 3 ? come on same scenario ... with more than 700k copies in the west alone . 3. brawler is often included in the broad category ... but fine let's go with your semantic . Madworld was the title that was supposed to shoulder the 3rd party wave of mature and hardcore titles . obivously it was unfair to pile that on him , but it still did . That it would beat given , it's genre and hype , a game from a semi- comatose genre , and rom a smaller dev (and let's not pretend not , even Arc system's publisher smells small , niche and indie) would be not failure from said fighting game , nor a surprise . 4 . And well sorry but 400k are only considered disappointing when it's from a big huge title . Blazblue is a new ip , in a niche , from a small even if loved dev , with a small publisher , and with the direct concurrence at the time , of The big bad wolf of the fighting game SF4 , and an even more direct one from a 2d competitor KofXII (wich now flopped but that's another matter) . 400k , and a spot back then in the top 10 of both consoles in japan , and many list list amazon ? That's a big splash and indeed marking the charts . But feel free to disagree
@PS360WII Nono i lump lazy devs in the list , cause there are a few .. but the following ones are only good stuff . Ds/psp's offering in jrpg have been stellar so far ... And hardly in any declines ... So again not enough yet home consoles major players ? One that made it and sold big (dq9) ? and a thriving handheld market ? I await proofs of such big decline ... and we wont have them until we see how did most franchises truly performed , when looking back at this gen .
Ah cool. Well alright then :) Yeah home consoles haven't been getting much rpg love (though I would argue 360 has been doing fine with that but I don't really want to get into that so much lol) as it does take a long time to develop them along with the HD nature of them as well.