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Valve's PSN Comments Disgusting ; Steam PS3 Campaign Opens

Justin D. of Neocrisis writes: "Only a few days after Gearbox's Randy Pitchford made comments about how Valve's stubbornness about PS3 development is only an excuse, it seems like Valve's answer to my question of whether they would prove either Randy or HipHopGamer right seems to sadly be the former answer.

CVG recently conducted an interview with Left 4 Dead project lead Chet Faliszek, and he made a comment that no one should ever make in the game industry about ANY community of gamers. This was aimed at the PS3 gamers, insulting them yet again by saying, "In hooking up with your friends and the community aspects, I think the Xbox 360 is head and shoulders above the PS3. The 360 and PC are on par, right?", and that Left 4 Dead 2 will be exclusive for that reason alone.

Never mind the fact that the community in Uncharted 2 seems to disprove Chet right "cheir", but it's also an amusing claim when you look at what the 360 community is made up of sometimes, and why Chet couldn't be any further from the truth, and should be fired for the comments. Meanwhile, we're going to do our part to make sure that Valve realizes their mistake...on Steam."

Update:

The Steam campaign is at: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/fansforps3

You will have to copy and paste it for now, since external links are for some reason being appended by a Neocrisis link and we're not sure why. Owner has been contacted and we'll update when it has been fixed.

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Greywulf3175d ago

And thats where I stopped reading. Gaming media is almost as bad as the open zone here.

3175d ago
WenisWagon3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

Aww the playbabies got their feelings hurt.

D4RkNIKON3175d ago

HipHop, don't forget Turn10! Also I agree with you, my money is going elsewhere

vegnadragon3175d ago

Those guys are so unprofessional about it. If you don't want make games for the ps3, fine. But don't insult us or find poor excuses for not doing so.

Chubear3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

I think they're just mad cause of the time one of Sony's game Development team whooped them at their own game in TF2. It was something like 5-0, quite embarrassing and thus, they want REVENGE! lol

Wait, let's see if I can find the vid of it

*update* Argh! It was on the Jace Hall show and now I can't find it anywhere, Dayum! lol

Nambassa3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

theyre just mad because theyre too stupid to be able to make a ps3 game without having to hand it over to EA. i wish they'd stop being stubborn and hire some ps3 coders to help them make a ps3 game.

topdawg1223175d ago

For such great developers, they sure say some pretty stupid stuff. Lamest excuse I've ever heard. They should grow some balls and just say they are fanboys.

HolyOrangeCows3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

...that they refuse to admit that the don't have proper training to create PS3 games and that they don't want to risk spending time and money on it.

FOR GOD'S SAKE, VALVE, JUST ADMIT YOU DON'T WANT TO/ARE WORRIED YOU CAN'T MAKE PS3 GAMES AND MOVE ON.
/caps

slayorofgods3175d ago

"(a guy that looks like a damned pedophile), "

Ah, it all make sense now. Now I know why valve support the younger xbox live crowd.

NegativeCreepWA3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

Hate him for telling the truth, that makes sense. The 360 is better for community if you think otherwise your in denial or have never actually used Live.

So this is what people are going to cry about for the next week. Good all the COD hate was getting old.

LET THE TRUTH BE HEARD!

And why is it when dev doesn't work on the PS3 there automatically incapable of doing so, maybe they just don't want to. I don't see people complaining about Naughty Dog not making 360 games.

Anyways back to Dragon Age, I'll let you guys continue throwing your fits because someone bad mouthed your beloved PS3.

1.2 What has Turn 10 done other than make a great game, do you even have a reason to hate Turn 10 other than they made a 360 game.

Mindboggle3175d ago

The guy from Valve is right. There isnt a big community on PSN. Yes it has lots of players, but noone uses headsets online apart from on Call of Duty. How can you say that it has a good community when your trying to play a team game, and noone talks.

Im not a fanboy for any side, and i do enjoy valves games on the PC, but to say this is the reason for not developing L4D for the PS3 is a joke. At the end of the day they make a game for money, not whether people will play it within a community. Its just a crap excuse for saying we dont know how to port it to PS3.

DelbertGrady3175d ago

It has become forbidden to criticize anything Sony related here on N4G.

I agree though, I think you fanboys have much more insight in how popular and active PSN really is than people who actually work in the business...

NegativeCreepWA3175d ago

And its just getting worse Soda, I enjoy both consoles and its like its blashtemy to do so.

table3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

they are not just critising Sony(something we are all so damned tired of by now anyway), but they are openly taking a shot at everyone who games on the ps3 with zero justification for it. You however would just ignore this being the smug fanboy that you are.

The Killer3175d ago

by the way, open zone sometimes way more interesting than gaming zone.

Open Zone this way---------->>>>

CrazzyMan3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

Ignoring
32 mln. PS3 owners by the end of 2009.
45 mln. PS3 owners by the end of 2010.
60 mln. PS3 owners by the end of 2011.
75 mln. PS3 owners by the end of 2012.

Anyway, there is always PC for Valve games, if anyone really cares THAT much.
BUT it`s really unhealthy nowdays for a 3rd party not to release a game on as many platforms as possible because of some lame excuses.

thedisagreefairy3175d ago

above me are ignorant as hell to the situation.

they arent trashing sony.

they are trashing ps3 online gamers saying we arent good enough for their games.

thats the problem.

quit trying to say ppl are defending sony

3175d ago
XxZxX3175d ago

soda, baseless critism is pretty much idiotic.

pixelsword3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

We'll see what their stance is after x-mas, though...and if Valve changes their mind, how the PS3 people will reject them. Look at Tekken 6, for example. I don't think it ever has such a slow start for sales considering what it did as exclusive versus it's multiplatform results. Tekken 5 sold about 274,402 in the first week on the PS3 alone; Tekken 6 sold around 313,633 total on both consoles. There's a market for fighting games, because SFIV sold really well, with an estimate of 500,644 in it's first week total multiplatform. That's just people that are pissed-off at what happened not buying the game... just like what will happen to Final Fantasy XIII's sales; it will take a hit in America, too.

One thing has to be said, Since a good number of PS3 owners bought the PS3 when it was a $600 console, a lot of them are people with cash that are pissed-off at the media, developers making shoddy ports, and 360 fanboys riding them hard for the first two years. The end result has been these PS3 owners are very proactive to the point they will complain when they are being screwed-over and are much more proactive than 360 owners. PS3 beta threads are like a firestorm sometimes.

sikbeta3175d ago

You forget about this:

"/S"

About this, who cares what some guy says about something he doesn't even know about and the article writer doesn't represent me, what he is trying to do, force valve to say sorry and after that release the game for PS3?

Is not gonna happen, don't follow this crap, for 3 years fanboys bash the PS3 and it's community and now because some ignorant talk too much, we'll take it as a offence, both don't know about the PS3 community so I don't care of anyone either

There is much better things to do in our lives to take this crap serious

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ikkokucrisis3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

It's not about which console has the best gaming features,

http://www.wuup.co.uk/ps3-v...

It's not about which console is easier to program for,

http://www.psu.com/PS3-deve...

It's not about which console has a larger market user base,

http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blo...

------------bottom line---------------------

It's about who you are getting paid by. period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Rainstorm813175d ago

" I don't see people complaining about Naughty Dog not making 360 games. "

Really? Did you just compare a first party company to a third-party company?

" And why is it when dev doesn't work on the PS3 there automatically incapable of doing so, maybe they just don't want to. I don't see people complaining about Naughty Dog not making 360 games. "

Because the dev said "Its Too difficult to develop for the PS3."
PS3 fans are just holding valve accountable for what they say.
Naughty dog didn't come out and say oh we don't make games on 360 because the development is too hard, instead they are truthful and say we prefer to work with Sony because our relationship with them. Valve just be real say you rather work on 360 & PC instead of belittling peoples console of choice and its community

Xbox Avatars Shoe3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

There are games which are drastically more technologically advanced than L4D 1 & 2 and they were ported to PS3 just fine. CoD4, WaW and MW2 look better than L4D and they were ported just fine to PS3. L4D 1 & 2's graphics are TERRIBLE and I refuse to believe there's some sort of invisible technology that is making it hard to port; I think Valve is just lazy.

Maybe Valve has finally realized the "PS3 is hard to work with" excuse is a load of BS so now they came up with a new BS excuse.

Valve just needs to admit that they're either lazy, or don't have the skills to work on non-PC platforms.

The Lazy One3175d ago

He was talking about the features of the community software in that it's easier for people to hook up with their friends on the 360, and it is.

Disgusting? Really? Today is the day Valve set off a bottle rocket and destroyed hiroshima.

sikbeta3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

You are right, but you have to think is valve talking, If is someone I respect like Kojima, man I'll be the more pissed man in the world, but Kojima is an Smart person and knows about respect

Those valve guys were talking bad about PS3 since the beginning of this generation, they are in love with M$, is not like I care or not and is obvious that they don't want to make games for PS3, we can't force them either

But in order to not get pointed as M$ lovers, they make stupid and ignorant comments about PS3 like always, like this awful excuse that can't be made by a human being in the whole evolution of the humanity

I'll give them what they deserve, an insult an go away, they don't deserve more than that, I'll not give my money, I don't care about their games if they doesn't respect me

Everything I posted before was because this is not the first time, they don't shut the F*ck Up, If they say sorry about that stupid comment I'm ok with that but this is valve, their arrogance, fatness and love for M$ don't let them

Peace Out Man, I'm with you, but I don't expect anything from those [email protected]@$$ guys

Saaking3175d ago

Valves comments are despicable, lame, and insulting. Ps3 fans request an immediate and sincere apology. If you don't want to make games fine, but do NOT go around saying crap about the PS3 and it's fanbase. The PS3 has titles far ahead of you're own and with so much more quality. Valve respect= 0.

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sikbeta3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

lol at you kido

You talking about something pathetic is the more ironic thing I see in this year

How dare you to say we are pathetic, when you are searching news about Sony, If your life is not pathetic, newell is an skinny boy lol

lol looks like someone try to beat you, is OWNED, well his name say it all, oh, is not his fault, genetic problems are not your fault OWNED and your parent still love you

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cmrbe3175d ago

I don't know why you guys even bother.

PS3 doesent matter to Valve therefore Valve shouldn't matter to PS3 fans.

or

Do you guys want to be childish and act like Valve?.

L4D?. Why the hell would any PS3 fans want that let alone play it on a console?.

badz1493175d ago

and you know the state of PSN while not even using it at all? having fun trolling aren't you?

@scar

"I don't see people complaining about Naughty Dog not making 360 games." - simply the stupidest comment of the day! hands down!

@soda

"I think you fanboys have much more insight in how popular and active PSN really is than people who actually work in the business..."

valve don't have any idea either! how would they? they don't even have a game on PS3 except for orange box but that was when the install base was small!

chaosatom3175d ago

They are one of the biggest developers around!

DaTruth3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

Seriously, does anyone actually use headsets for game related play? 90% of the time your listening to 2 @$$holes speaking Chinese(or whatever language on North American servers) and losers talking about their day or just having stupid conversations!

Then there's the $hit talkers who don't seem to realize that his opponents aren't hearing him and it is his team that has to hear his stupid comments and yelling! Especially down south Americans; You Europeans don't know what its like to play with those guys!

One time this high pitched kid started singing Sponge Bob songs! If this happens so much on PSN, I can only imagine how much worse it is on LIVE, with the abundance of racist, homophobics and twelve year olds. Usually end up turning my headset off!

Haven't seen a good use of headsets since capture the flag Warhawk!

Budg3tG4m3r3175d ago

He sure sid hurt alot of weak egos with his interview. Didn't the guys from Killzone say somthing about the Xbox? My point is no dev can make exclusives on any platform and say anything without some whiny kids boycotting it or making a petition. If DICE ever said they didn't like the 360 or PS3 because they don't like the colors white or black fanboys would be crying and starting an internet petition right away.

Grow up fanboys or get laid

thegood333175d ago

Valve rocks! Best developer ever. Keep talking smack about em, and give the xbox 720 half life 3 as an exclusive. You tard ridden ps3 fanboys...

NegativeCreepWA3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

badz, How nice of you tell me what I know and don't know about. Truth is I probably use PSN more then most of the people here. I play the MAG beta almost every day. And I was playing Uncharted 2 and Demon Souls until my Blue-Ray drive went out a few weeks ago, I'm waiting for my 250 to show up right now.

At least unlike most of you I have valid opinion on the two networks because I use both of them allot. I am hardly trolling, im just not a blind fanboy like most of you and im not going kiss Sonys or MSs a$$ when I find something wrong with one of them. I tend to defend MS on this site because there's so much blind hatred for them that's unwarranted.

And since when is naughty dog first party they have no obligations to Sony they just choose to make games for them.

TheBand1t3175d ago

ND has been first party since 2001. Where have you been?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

JokesOnYou3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

More garbage from the same site who recently posted these headlines: "Tough Love for Microsoft" and "360 Fanboys Let Microsoft Get Away with Too Much", Valve is free to make games for whatever platform they choose, if they had chosen to only make games for ps3 like some other devs who have said they chose to be 2nd party(to get sony funding) because they like ps3 platform, all of you sonykids think thats great but when a company clearly prefers 360 for whatever reason their reasons, its always got to be a crime= Disgusting= Yeah whatever, STOP YOUR CRYING ALREADY. lol

Actually PirateTom if you and all those who agree with you pay attention, Valve pretty much basicly said they don't want to learn the ps3 architechture in so many words, vvvvvv

"The PC and the 360 are just more straightforward. We can focus on what we want to do, which is make game experiences, instead of sweating bullets over obscure architectural decisions they make with their platform. [...] I didn’t come into this business in the 90s because of some technical fetish. I came in because I wanted to give people experiences that made them have fun."
http://loot-ninja.com/2009/...

-But the response to this was pretty much twisted to point the finger a Valve as the bad guy by the ps3 community, sort of just how you imply Valve is somehow NOT talented enough to work on the ps3, thats not at all what they said, its really simple, the ps3 architechture is different from what they are used to being PC devs first and foremost and they simply DONT THINK THEY SHOULD EXPEND THE RESOURCES TO LEARN AND DEVELOP GAMES FOR IT, thats very different from not being able to, its like a NASCAR driver refusing to drive INDY cars or vice versa, why should he if he prefers and enjoys the type of cars he's been driving for the last 20 yrs?

-Also this isn't really new, other devs complained about sonys choice of architechture long before ps3 launched, remember there were alot of heartaches early on with ps3 development, dev kits etc, some like Johh Carmack didn't like it but ultimately still wanted to dev games for ps3, Valve doesn't want to, blame sony or just stop all the hating as if Valve is so how "out of line" for making business descision that so far they seem very comfortable with.

JOY

NegativeCreepWA3175d ago

Alright ND is first party so it was bad example, but im sure you understand what I was saying to people around here the only way a dev can be any good is if they make games for the PS3.

jadenkorri3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

its really too hard to add someone on ps3...

PSN community
goto friends section going right with analog stick, press up a few times, press X on "add a friend", type in friends name, type a message, then send.

Xbox community
goto my xbox, move right with analog stick, once if a game/disc is in, press A on your profile, press A again on messages, use analog stick and go left once, press A again to "add a friend" type in friends name, automated message pops up, you can create a voice message but not necessary, and then send.

man its looks 10 times harder to add a friend and have a community on the psn, i wouldn't even dare start a voice conversation, let alone a video feed, that's just unpossible.

@ Raiinstorm81
because naughydog has never said anything bad about MS or the 360, saying its too hard to program for or the community don't exist. I respect. Bungie and turn 10 as developers and wish their games were on the ps3, I hope you would feel the same for Naughtdog and other first party devs of sony. But whats the most annoying is the arrogance that Valve shows, with its boss and now other employees.

TheBand1t3175d ago

Yea, I understand what you're saying. Doesn't bother me at all if Valve does or does not support the PS3 as their games are infinitely better on a PC.

NoBias3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

For the community who supposedly is made up of an older audience, this whole "you insulted us" "you hurt are feelings and we'll show you!" is childish as hell... And honestly, laughable. The fact that you all won't admit that PSN is barren in terms of voice chat and communications simply dumbfounds me. (Besides SOCOM)

Then you have PS3 fanboys openly admitting:

Da Truth writes: "Haven't seen a good use of headsets since capture the flag Warhawk!"

Hmm... I dunno... Do you think this could be what Valve is talking about? THE MAJORITY OF THE COMMUNITY DOES NOT USE THEIR MICS! Why are you all taking what is a blatant truth as an insult?! The saying "The trust hurts." is no joke, I guess... Man the hell up and stop whining...

TheReaper423174d ago (Edited 3174d ago )

I guess pushing Triangle right "invite ####" is too hard for some people to understand. If you don't want to hear people on the mic, just mute them. I mute everyone besides my friends when i play.

@nobias

you must be a FANBOY lover cause 98% of your posts have the word FANBOY in it, preferably PS3. Nobias my ass. You are like a stealth troll.

snoopgg3174d ago

But why, Left for Dead was uninspiring and very boring. The constant shooting of zombies gets boring really really fast. The ps3 doesn't need any games like this. I have a 360, rented the game, lost intersest took it back and forgot about it. Left for dead 2 is already dead to me. Face it Gabe your game sucks!!!!!!!!!!! Hey Infanty ward you guys were talking shat about treyarch for their world at war game, but you guys copy their Zombie shat, what a joke you guys are!!!!!

mastiffchild3174d ago

Snoop-yes that's why it's a crap game ON THE 360. On the PC, however, it looks better, there's a better community(for this game) and you get full mod and epdate suppoty from the community AND from Valve. Valve saying the 360 community is on a par with the PC over L4D is the sickest joke. You pay more for the neutered 360 version(I know as I have both)and get way, way less-and why? Cos MS won't allow their users anything for nothing and the reasons(outside of Valve's insecurities about the scary PS3 hardware)Valve wn't take it to PS3 include the likely fact that Sony(as witUT3) WOULD allow some decent support and make their mates at MS look like the tightwads towards their own that they really are. You get NOTHING free from MS and it cuts down on the work Valve have to do so Gabe and Chet get more burger time to think up insults for users of the "bogey" console that scares them so much-no wondr they imagine it's users are so scary!

Honestly, though, PSN didn't deserve this rubbish from someone who hasn't even looked into development and the constant tirades of hate and mistrust from Valve and their classy employees is now a joke in it's own right-plus if they were only going to offer the same L4D as 360 gets? Stick it up your ample asses Valve as it's such a pale , watery, fugly, unsupported and overpriced excuse for a L4D experience that on 360 left me feelin like Gabe had sat on me for a week.

Bloody Valve being stuck up for by 360 users who they're ripping off! Funny, at least PS3 owners escape that one! ALL PS360 owners(like myself) should demand more(or at least some decorum) from the nobs.

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PirateThom3175d ago

Valve don't have to make PS3 games if they don't want to, they're not in any kind of state where they need to.

It's the nonsense excuses that are the problem.

If they just admitted development on the PS3 platform is beyond them because they're too set in their PC ways, we'd all get along fine.

kwyjibo3175d ago

They have admitted to that - multiple times - that they don't have the resources for PS3 development.

I think the issue for Sony fans though, is that they could easily hire one, they just choose not to.

It's their call really though, could probably spin it a bit better though.

RememberThe3573175d ago

It's their arrogance and condescending attitude toward the PS3 and it's community that bother me.

reintype3175d ago

I mean why continue pissing off a platform that maybe beneficial to you in the future, unless you do not want them to succeed. That's like burning your bridges, before you even cross it, which is insane.

Let's face it, with the way things are going with the PS3 right now because of the slim, it has gotten MS scared. It's not entirely impossible for them to use VALVE, a developer of great renown, to try and defame the PS3 and stop it's momentum, and sway them to the 360, without anyone pointing an accusing finger directly at them.

If they could do it with the media, I wouldn't be surprise, if they can do it with a developer. Specially if those devs, has past ties with them.

madpuppy3175d ago

They don't have the programming acumen to develop for the PS3 platform and if they tried they would end up releasing an inferior product.

Valve just needs to admit it's lack of ability and be done with it.

sikbeta3175d ago

But guys, why you care about them, you make this crap more important than It really is, move on there is nothing to do with them and their respective ignorance

kwyjibo3175d ago

Valve are rolling in money, if they really wanted to hire a PS3 team, they could do it in a heartbeat.

It's clearly just that they don't want to do it.

moparful993175d ago

Its funny to me how nobody has seen it before but microsoft is essentially getting away with slander. Think for a minute of all the times that microsoft affiliated media outlets as well as developers and internal sources come out and take these "sly" jabs at sony. Why would they go to such means? To hurt sony's bottom line, to have a financial impact by spreading false information. Slander 101 folks but yet everyone turns a deaf ear. These recent attack by the likes of turn 10, bobby kotick, and of course gabe and his rag tag team have become increasingly brazen as if testing the waters. I think sony needs to slam M$ with a lawsuit the likes with which they've never seen... What do you guys think?

DaTruth3175d ago

It's not like Valve was just not making games on PS3 and there were PS3 fanboy blogs caring to ask why or beg; These guys just started badmouthing the PS3 and putting out stupid reasons why they don't want to.

Now 360 fanboys say PS3 owners are shedding tears. Nobody cares until they open their fat foaming mouths and start spitting off at PS3 and owners of it!

WE HAVE 20 SOMETHING FIRST PARTY DEVELOPERS PRODUCING GAMES FOR US; WE DON'T NEED YOU!!!

However 360 is in desperate need of some games. I suggest Valve focus on them! They're likely to buy any piece of crap just so they have a reason to turn on their console besides Netflix!

madpuppy3175d ago

They have some "problem" with Sony and the PS3. And because of that, what they are saying makes it worse!

They are lame excuses rather than a legitimate technical reason for their disdain.

And Because of that it is even more justified to call them out about this situation.
Don't make lame excuses! Say that you don't like the PS3 and be honest Why.

This reminds me when Valve made a deal with ATI when Half Life 2 was released,all of a sudden Valve was badmouthing Nvidia. instead of just keeping their mouth shut like every other company that makes a deal with another company. they just couldn't help themselves. they are like a mercenary jerk with bi-polar syndrome.

Consoldtobots3174d ago

@ mopar, I've been saying the same thing since about a year into the release of the PS3. Alot of this FUD, paid for journalists,websites and publications on the part of MS and their glorious philosophy when it comes to competition borders on if it isn't outright ANTITRUST practices. IMO Sony is kinda lame for not slamming MS nuts in a vice with a massive antitrust lawsuit. It's not like MS's hands are clean in this regard.MS has every right to compete in this industry but not at th expense of one it's biggest innovators and leaders.

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GaMa853175d ago

Pedophiles love Xbox Live.

The END3175d ago

that was just stupid... gonna tell your mommy you are being mean on the internet again...

what a loser... THE END

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3175d ago
CrazzyMan3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

PS3 started outselling x360 and kicking it`s ass in ALL regions.
PS3 got most HIGH rated exclusives this year.
Uncharted 2 became a new standart for single player gaming experience.

And here, finally all xbot trolls crawled out, lol.
It`s a rare occasion, when you can see so many xbots, since PS3 will continue destroying x360 on all fronts.))

chaosatom3175d ago

Valve are pretty pathetic fanboys.

GiantEnemyCrab3175d ago (Edited 3175d ago )

Wow, to think that dipsh!t comment gets 36 agree's continues to prove what a cesspool this place is.

Glad you consider yourself the head spokesman for pedophiles.. ugh

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TROLL EATER3175d ago

valve speak the truth. psn is lame

nycredude3175d ago

Why is Psn lame? Cause it's free? Oh I get it now. In order for something to be good you have to pay for it, even though it's free everywhere else right? You guys are brainwashed man.

pwnamon3175d ago

Aha, yet you presume because it's free it's automatcally better than the payed service?

I'd much rather live in the streets, so what if I get cold and bored, at least I don't have to pay for a house.

YLOD Service Tech3175d ago

PSN is a poor man's XBL, simple as that.

3175d ago
-MD-3175d ago

It's lame cause it's terrible obviously.

Light Yagami3175d ago

Cry moar ps3 droids. harharhar.

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Pennywise3175d ago

What an entertaining read. Valve is doing nothing but missing money from Ps3 owners. They are not assuring the 360 victory... just pissing off potential customers.