Why Microsoft Hasn't Released Folding @ Home on the Xbox 360

Earlier this year, Sony and Stanford University teamed up to release a Folding@Home client for the PS3. Part marketing, part philanthropy, they've managed to increase the overall processing power of the F@H project by three-fold. Xbox 360 fanboys have been clamoring for a F@H client for the Xbox 360, wanting to put it up against the PS3 in a fight to the death.

In a recent interview with Dean Takahashi, Peter Moore stated that Microsoft has been exploring the idea, with encouragement from Bill Gates. Presumably Gates, being the philanthropist he is, would love the opportunity to leverage the worldwide base of 10M+ Xbox 360s and help solve some problem of a global scale. So why hasn't Microsoft rushed to bring a 360 client to the marketplace? Two words: fatal flaw.

The design and construction of the Xbox 360 CPU, GPU, and motherboard cause the board to warp under normal operation conditions. When the board warps, the critical solder joints between the CPU/GPU and the motherboard may fail, resulting in the infamous red ring of death.

If Microsoft releases a F@H client for the 360, they could be facing a financial and public relations nightmare. The F@H client uses 100% of the CPU power, and if possible, 100% of the GPU power of the device while running. This generates tremendous amounts of heat, which places components under high stresses. It's a worst case scenario for hardware designers.

[drtysouf21]

And you know why i say that! You owe me!

Edit: Nevermind you changed it. LOL.

[nice_cuppa]

now thats deep !

[23478ueyur_938223]

At least that makes sense.

"When the board warps, the critical solder joints between the CPU/GPU and the motherboard may fail, resulting in the infamous red ring of death."

I remember reading about the connection of these somewhere, but I didn't know it was caused by maximum stress on the components.

[techie]

fixed for elite...and I'm guessing future models

[23478ueyur_938223]

Was it fixed for the Elite? I remember reading it was susceptible to the same problem? I could be wrong.

I don't know how the connections work anyway.

However if it was fixed, then perhaps that model could run it.

Oh, alright. So far I don't recall reports of any failed Elites anyway so it is probable.

[techie]

No. It includes the "red rings"...which is a stupid thing to say, as that just means it has the lights on the front...but I believe they have tried to tackle the problem, whether they did so very well is another debate

[BitbyDeath]

The Elite hasn't fixed it, the problem still exists in all consoles, hopefully when the 65nm is released it will correct it as it will be producing less heat

[techie]

Changed

[God of Gaming]

Oh crap, so my 360 is built for playing games? Darn my luck.

[techie]

Hey GOG, just an article...and maybe in the future it can do it. I used to love GOGS when I was a kid.

[frostbite06]

LOL Apparently the 360 wasnt built for playing games with that many disagrees.

[BitbyDeath]

yes but only in small doses.

[PhinneousD]

leave folding for ps3, i'm down with that.

[StateofMind]

Sort of what I said in that other post. There's no way in hell I'd want to leave a 360 on overnight running Folding@Home like I do with my PS3. It wouldn't last a week.

[techie]

You know it prob would last...but the doubt would be in your mind, I think that's all that matters. Shame to doubt it.

[TheMART]

Actually

You shouldn't be running any electronic device when you're sleeping. That's insane.

Highest burnable equipment is known the washing machine and wash dryer, but also TV's on standby etc. are known to burn through and put the house on fire while you're asleep.

Are Sony fans that dumb to raise the possibility to be burned by fire while they're sleeping?

It's very nice that the PS3 helps folding. But before that, did you all let your PC's running for folding? I bet almost no one used it.

So I am just curious, why suddenly it is important to run it on your gaming device? Besides the fact that the PS3 does a very nice job on it? I mean, Sony only integrated it to get some positive attention because they knew there is so much negative buzz around the PS3 and too little content.

Actually I am glad my 360 is the optimal gaming machine. Please keep folding from it. If I would like to participate, I can run my multicore PC or that.

@ Deep (below)

No indeed, it was no one calling you up etc.

BUT: the article you are linking to is saying the Epoxy is to cool the CPU/GPU down. Which is wrong. If we follow the link to llama.com, we can read this:

"One a side note, we all had a good belly laugh here at the shop when we saw Microsoft's most creative measures to minimize the dreaded Xbox 360 3 flashing red lights "ring of death" error caused by poor BGA connections of the CPU and GPU. It seems that that the good ol' a dab will do ya methodology applies here. Take a look at the epoxy surrounding the CPU and GPU which is intended to prevent the BGA connection from popping as the board warps. This has to be one of the funniest things I have ever seen. Will it do the job, we have our doubts, but it will remain to be seen. It certainly seems like taking the easy way out instead of fixing the real problem."

THUS: the epoxy is to prevent possible bad solding of the connections that could pop out of their socket. That's not directly for heat reduction.

CONCLUSION: the original 360 core/premium will be doing just fine with folding as the Elite. This article is BOGUS because the person that wrote it took the wrong conclusion. If a connection pops, that's a bad solding, not nescessarily a heatproblem. Although a very heat board could let the connections pop, I would say overall that would be a very VERY small percentage.

Thus again, a Sony droid article from a person that takes random assumptions. Sounds like a sort of DJ kind of assumption. Ah wait, the name DJ is no more... What's his freakin' name again?

@ Satanas (below)

Fine if you want to take the risc. And ofcourse, most of the time it will run just fine. But tell that to people who's house has been burned down and killed their childeren, partner or to the relatives that lost all because of a TV on standby, a PC that ran, washing @ night (because electricity is cheaper).

It's just plain dumb to let equipment running while you're asleep, period.

@ BBsin (below)

Wrong dude. The negative buzz is all around. It's mainly from large reviewers, everyone has acknowledged that the 360 is doing better in multiplatform games, has the best AAA next gen title in Gears of War, thus paying 33% for a PS3 isn't justified. For sure not at this moment and the future promisses are unknown.

Sure, the PS3 isn't getting positive buzz from me either. Because I really think it's a cheap bluray player, but not the best choice for games. Home is the promise, but the promise was also to have a XBL killer @ PS3 launch. It wasn't there. Many real PS exclusives that went to the 360, only new IP's (no former XBOX exclusives) that are said by Sony droids came over to PS where in reality only released timed exclusive on the 360 because the PS3 wasn't out/delayed.

Some things get pretty clear the PS3 can't catch up. Not in sales, not in games. And every time it can't the developer is called lazy by Sony fanboys. It's just too freakin' funny.

And now these kind of articles, where wrong assumptions are taken. All new Sony marketing. If we can't create positive buzz around our own product, we'll get fake assumptions out there to try to weaken our competitors

@ Piraat (below)

Dude, proof me wrong on the thing I am saying you shouldn't leave electronic equipment on power @ night, by having a report that says that it isn't the reason of many if not most fires @ night that burns down houses and kill people. Because it really is. You are the one sounding plain dumb by saying something like that shouldn't be said.

[23478ueyur_938223]

"You shouldn't be running any electronic device when you're sleeping. That's insane."

My PC hasn't been turned off for months. And I didn't know what folding was until I heard about it on PS3. Not to mention it's much, much more effective on the console than my computer.

If you don't want to run it, it's fine.

Mart, what you're saying about the electrical danger is true, but I'm fairly competent in ensuring that there is no problem with my setup and that my computer will run fine under constant 'ON' time. It is built to be able to stay on for extended periods of time.

For the record I don't leave my PS3 on at night folding, I usually leave it doing so when I go out somewhere and I'm not using it (during the day). I'm not worried that anything will happen. The program went through extensive testing before being released, with some PS3s on for weeks.

[techie]

"You know it prob would last..." Said it right there Mart.

ps. Stop thanking me for the article! lol thank drtysouf21 who found it.

I myself find the articles tone quite lopsided, but his point is based on the past failure rate and rumours of why the 360 is failing...apparently due to warping of the boards. It is then presumed that folding would cause this warping to happen if the 360 was left on for a long time. In other words...without more proof of overheating causing warped boards, and that folding would cause this...the article is bogus. But it is an exploration of the problem which can be tackled in the comment area.

[BBsin]

TheMart: the negative buzz on the PS3 is mainly from fanboys and Sony haters like you. Some people don't have much of a life (fanboys) and get all religious with their opinions about a console or company. There wouldn't be all this negative buzz if people would just either buy the product they liked or not buy the product they didn't and just left it at that, but fanboys are inclined to run their mouths and belittle another person just b/c that person decides to spend their hard earned cash on what they want to (which happens to be the very prooduct that the fanboy "hates" so much). Either way there would always be negative buzz from Sony, no matter what they do. They can release a powerful more expensive console and be hated, they can release a cheap low end console and be hated, they are hated when there are many PS3 on shelves, they are hated there are no PS3s on shelves, they are hated for having a free online service, they are hated when they discluded rumble, they are hated when they revealed rumble, they are hated for releasing a cheaper option for a console, they are hated for having a console thats too expensive, they are hated for showing a concept of a new controller style, they are hated for reusing a controller that no one complained about for the past generations, they are hated for not releasing any AAA titles in their first months and now they are hated for having a folding client on their console..... It seems sony can NEVER do anything right, but to me it sounds like all this negative buzz from fanboys is mainly jealousy.

[San anto]

runnin F@H on 360 is like puttin a 2 ton weight on a horse n tellin it to walk, just incapable. ID probly say in contrast F@H on ps3 is like puttin a 2 ton weight on a african elephant then tellin it to walk.

[hfaze]

"You shouldn't be running any electronic device when you're sleeping. That's insane.
"

Really? So should I unplug my alarm clock, air conditioner, TV, Cable box, etc. when I go to bed? =P

I've been running my PC 24/7 for YEARS, and I haven't burned down one place I lived in yet... What you're saying may have been true for 70's and 80's electronics, or REALLY poorly made electronics, but anything fairly recent and of good quality is of no concern.

Anything that's been UL (Underwriter's Laboratories) certified (and in good working order) will not spontaneously burst into flames...

Keep putting that spin on it Mart... At least your propaganda is amusing... ;-)

[BBsin]

Mart: That's fine with the PS3fanboy bashing, i dislike PS3fanboys as much as you, as a matter of fact i think ALL fanboys needs to get a life for change. But think about what you're saying man, you talk about all these "promises" that sony has made in the past or recently and you're already bashing them for not delivering them.... the stupid part in all of this is that Fanboys like you feel that sony has to bring everything out the moment the PS3 gets released. Look at your statements, you already think the PS3 will never catch up and it's only been out for how long???? what was the xbox360 doing around this timeframe last year??? did the 360 have that blockbuster title yet??? was it a cheap system?? No and No. Yet the same thing is going on for the PS3 and you are ALREADY nailing in the coffin for the PS3. It's like you dont want Sony to succeed b/c you know if they do succeed, you will have a VERY VERY hard time swallowing the stuff you've said. So what you do in your free time is try to take the negative buzz and make it worst than it sounds then you take any GOOD news from sony and downplay it as much as possible. Think about it Mart: you are no better than the PS3 fanboys. and the reason why you hate sony so much is b/c of fear, why else would you be willing to say that the PS3 is done without even being out in the market for more than ONE YEAR??. It is VERY EASY to PREDICT the outcome of a system 5-6 months after it gets launched, and alot of people are falling for the negative buzz. This has happened for the PS1 and the PS2 b/c both systems had weak starts. There's no question that the Xbox360 is the best nextgen console right now, but each of the systems are not even 2 years old yet. Look at the history for how much a console usually sells ina life cycle, a 10 million difference can change within a year. I just want to see your response IF/when the PS3 happens to a have a great year and actaully surpass the 360 in sales, whether it's 2 years or 5 years down the road. I certainly hope you don't switch sides or hide like most other fanboys, and instead just gracefully eat your words when or if that happens. And don't get me wrong theMart, unlike some people in this forum i don't "hate" you or take your opinions personally. I just think it's ridiculous that you are so quick to judge Sony and annoucne their failure, while puting yourself over PS3 fanboys even though you (a xboxfanboy) say and act the same.

and BTW: i have not heard any big name reviewers or magazine announce the doom of the PS3. If anything they all say the same. "IT'S TOO EARLY TO SAY WHO THE WINNER IS" heard that one b4??? the only ones saying that the PS3 is going to fail is A. finance "analyst" B. fanboys.
you clearly said that the future is unproven .... now how stupid does that sound when you say the PS3 will clearly never catch up in games and sales???

[GaMr-]

................. sure puts silence to this articles counterpart now doesnt it.

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

Remind me deep havn't you talked sh!t about posting BullSh!t articles and changed titles. Or are you just the same hypocrite we all know you are?

[23478ueyur_938223]

The article is informative, the author's choice of words will probably get him flamed though.

It's not like deep wrote that.

[techie]

I beg your pardon? This is an exploration of why Microsoft may not have brough f@h to the 360. Take it as you will. However, it is not a "somebody rang me up and told me that EA says the PS3 sucks". There's a very big difference.

This is a well written article which provides support for its conclusion, but whether its conclusion is correct is up for debate...and the debate can be held in the comment area, a place where you are welcome to provide your opinion of it. So far you conclude his arguments are weak, which is understandable.

[marionz]

how does the most anoying person on this site manage to have so many bubbles anyway...
makes the mart look like a saint

[tethered]

"" 7.3 - totally agree
how does the most anoying person on this site manage to have so many bubbles anyway...
makes the mart look like a saint""

I cant believe you just said that. WOW

Deep actually does research and delivers facts (on both sides) while TheMART cuts and pastes only one side of the story (the side he agrees with).
I have seen this time and time again. I find it hard to believe anyone believes his posts anymore.

[ARVO]

Only reason he has bubbles is his 14 accounts, he jumps up 2 bubbles a week every week, once you can give bubbles to the same people again shocker

[BBsin]

some of that ten million install base would of greatly helped the cause.

[NikV3]

the 360 cant handle being left on? i thought ms said they could and they have fixed the problems with the 360's, we all know they havent but i just thought id bring it up seeing as they just basicly admitted the 360 isnt met for long hours.

[23478ueyur_938223]

Mmmm.......I dunno about "long hours," I think the problem is being under "high stress" for long hours.

I'm sure people have had their systems on for extended periods without any problems.

"Whats more stressful, folding or playing Gears coop split screen for 5-6 hours?"
Definitely Folding. Folding will tax your hardware beyond what a game will.

[sak500]

Whats more stressful, folding or playing Gears coop split screen for 5-6 hours? And you know what my 360 survived it. So how many games do you have which can offer split screen with graphical quality like Gears?

BTW I'd prefer gaming to folding on my console and let some app like folding run on my dual core, o/c 3.4ghz watercooled 2 gb ddr 800, with Nvidia 7950GX 2 sli 2x512 mb vga system. Unfortunately, despite trying my darndest the folding doesnt connect to the server to retrieve the packets. So its my loss i guess.

FYI sonyatics, I've left my 360 on for more than 10 hours overnight as i was dl a huge demo and connection was being shared by my pc for some other stuff i was dl there. This was prior to the spring update and nothing happend to it. Now with the new update, we can switch off the console and it will do the dl in the background.

[D3acon]

I belive Microsoft recently just updated their warranty and extended it to a year for broken 360s.

[Premonition]

Thats somewhat of bad news but I predict there will be 100 comments atleast.

[sandip787]

right lets be totally honest. if F@H was available to 360, and not the ps3, would you really be saying this? i honestly cant believe the absolute turd monkeys that come out of peoples mouths these days. its for a good cause, if not a great cause. dabbling in the fact that people have died through house fires is just plain offensive. you've said in a previous post that you'd like ps3 fans to 'burn in hell' anyway, so isnt this a dream come true for you?

[power of Green]

All you have to do is put a small fan next to the side vent on the 360 and it will blow air as worm as your breath out the back, try it your games will come out barely warm with a fan if you ever need to leave your 360 on just use a fan; warping problem solvded!. The BS myth of not being able to leave it on is BULLSHIT!, lol Sony fanboys.

((Mi5t4k3)) are you done?, although i knew this was a trap i posted anyways let it all out the sooner the better then we all can move on. Its not good for your health sitting in here waiting to be angry about something you have no intrest in to begin with.

[Premonition]

No xbox fanboys or players for that matter dont want to hear someone say "Put a fan next to your system, problem solved" You spend over 400 for a system that should be well built, you would expect it to handle this, just like I spent over 600 and I expect my system to not overheat. Ive folded 5 days straight no problems, during that time ive also watched 2 movies and played a couple of online games. That to me sounds like a well built system. Trust me no one wants to put a fan next to a system like if their system is garbage or something. At the end of the day I want to see if the 360 can handle it, if it can handle this program good news and it will also prove if that motherboard statement is true. Go ahead and use your last bubble for another stupid comment, you and Mart are probably brothers or something.

EDIT: did i hurt your feelings or something? Im just stating whats right, If i had still had my 360 I wouldnt want to put up with the crap your saying. I can post all day baby no problem. You dont want to meet your worse nightmare :)

[StrboyM]

some machines, unlike others can be left on over night, my pc for 1, my ps3 and from the people on my friends list who go from F@H to games to F@H. some never ever turn thier ps3s off. my brother got his ps3 2 weeks ago and has folded 39 units already. your absurd justification of why 360's shouldnt be left on because of fire hazards doesnt really apply to ps3's and for that matter 360's. so far i havent heard one fire story...all i hear is three rings of death stories when it gets to that point.

[carlman23]

Having a bit of experience with scientific computing, I knew the F@H would be a massive system hog. Although I like the idea in principle, I wasn't willing to leave my PS3 on overnight, burning out the internal components. In my experience, computers tend to last longer when they're left on (not on and off all the time); but I can't say the same about consoles. We'll have to see in the future if PS3 'folders' experience greater than normal console failures - I certainly hope not, but I wasn't willing to put a $600 investment on the line.

[23478ueyur_938223]

I wouldn't think so. I've had programs that are taxing on CPU/GPU run on my PC (and my PC isn't the best out there), and overclocked it before.

I think the PS3 was made to support an application like this, and tested to undergo such stresses.

Though maybe you're right, I'm not too worried.

[tehcellownu]

it will cost them a lot money to fix all the 360 too..and plus its not as powerful as the ps3..so why bother..they cant compete

[ITR]

Cough.

Where does competition come into this.

Only some fanboys would see it like that.

I don't own either.

[Piraat]

"Are Sony fans that dumb to raise the possibility to be burned by fire while they're sleeping?"

I'm a new member. Been on here for about.... 4 hours and I must say... TheMart... You're pretty damn retarded. EVERYTHING out of your mouth (fingers?, I would really hate to be around you, I bet your employer put your cubicle in the back next to the noisy A/C huh?) This little number that you just posted even further proves that either:

A) You're a 30 year old balding douche with a terrible marriage.
B) Suffer from Down Syndrome

Arguing over F@H on consoles is pretty damn sad. Who really gives a sh!t? TheMart please remove yourself from the computer screen. Get out of your mothers basement. It's time to grow up son. God help us if you have reproduced.

[Bathyj]

You've clued on to our biggest jerk right away.

Now see if you can spot the 2nd biggest. I'll give you a clue...he sleeps with lemmings.

EDIT
Oh Boo FKN Hoo! If you needed futher proof there it is. One of Marts little Rentboys took a bubble away from me. It must suck to have nothing but hate in your life.

[nix]

and i gave you a bubble... and i gave you a bubble to you too, bathyj! q:

[power of Green]

No he didn't write it but it is what he was looking for(counter other posts?/revenge?).

#10 Hmmm... its BULLSHIT theres your anwser.

((Mi5t4k3)) why are you so angry kid?, WTF are you going on about?. With the next site update I'll have more bubbles and the likes of you wont be able to take them just because you're offended by my points of view, do what you must and take a chill pill or get your head checked.

[Premonition]

You know this how? Did you ever try folding on your 360 as of yet. I wanst aware the program was out. Until then no one can say if its true or not espically you.
You can argue all you want by re editing your post, which I might have to have some words with the site about, they should allow a certain amount a time before a post can not be edited anymore because people like you and mart always have to say something stupid.

EDIT: thats all you can say, after you've already been beaten, thats all you can say, "why are you an angry kid". I dont see any anger in my post. What else you got? UPDATE: Thats it? GG

[kewlkat007]

". Xbox 360 fanboys have been clamoring for a F@H client for the Xbox 360, wanting to put it up against the PS3 in a fight to the death.
"

What fanboys they talking about, I never wanted F@H in the first place. Another cheapshot article for fanboys to slam MS with "red rings" comments. Thanks DEEP keep the great Articles coming.

Plus the PS3 has a Super Computer CPU type architecture, it is great at these types of calculations and such.(I'm not sure about heat tho) I don't think the 360 was built in mind for projects like this, no that it cannot take part. Ya know MS had gaming in mind.

This F@H BS, whether the 360 can or cannot, whether MS actually wants to, or even whether Xbox fans even want it has been flamed about and if you were to ask any Xbox fan, if they give a Rats @ss about folding? most just want a 360 for gaming and other multimedia functions.

Thanks again for the Flamebait Deep. Another my console is superior than yours becasue it can FOLD article. Ha.

On another Note: DEEP, If you do not own a PS3 and for sure wouldn't touch a 360 what are you playing next-gen? Ya know you post some good articles then the hypocrisy rears its ugly head with articles like this.

[sak500]

Well he is getting rewarded by sonyatics with bubbles for his ms bashing sony sucking articles .

[techie]

No microsoft bashing here.

I personally don't know what to make of the article. But I have 18 crank and I thought I'd post d's find for him.

I have posted 18 articles a day, I've brought you a hell of a lot of Halo news and positivie articles, so don't give that to me.

Good news and bad news should be posted...and it's clear that an "xbot" as the "sony droids" like to call them, would not post this.

As I said it's an exploration, but whether it is valid is another problem which can be explored in the comment area, but in fact there aren't many people who can ingage in an argument, but instead have to bash the person who posted it.

My own personal conclusion to this is...there is a high failure rate of 360 consoles, which needs o be tackled, and I believe it has with a refinement of the boards. This problem for folding would only be a problem for older 360 models...but should be fine for future ones.

Now what do you think? You have to engage, there doesn't need to be any "your console is not as good as mine"...that's your choice to take it down to that level, but I certainly didn't provoke that.

ps. "deep - contributor - Tipsed by: drtysouf21" - I didn't dig this up, I post nearly every tip, as I am able to and not many other people can. SO back off both of you.

There's no sucking and there's no bashing coming from me. If you think there is then you have a "fanboy" filter that makes every negative word about your "preference" sound like bashing, and every positive word for your "competitor" as "sucking". Don't you think there's something quite sad about that? Be strong, enter the debate...call it bullshit, explain why. Don't bash people who didn't write the article.

[Short_E]

do you have a life? do you keep a bottle to pee in next to your PC?
sorry all i can think of is you must be the bigst loser geek on this site, its a shame we cant shut you up! guess you have lotsa accounts to give yourself bubbles with
thats probably why so many people just block you!

what a fanboy loser, oh and most of your fanboy BS storys suck! dont make out like your some great contributer! retard

[nix]

... that's quite an accusation buddy!

if deep wasn't here... we wouldn't be reading so many news here... including news about your favourite - Halo3. so stop bashing just because your console is inferior! call MS and complain... go complain - "sony fanboys are making fun of me!"

loser!

[ITR]

I call BS.

The client does not use all the cycles in the processor.
"Only idle CPU time will be used by the client." from Folding @ home site.
The client only uses un-used cycles in the processor.

I'm running the OS X client on my machine and it doesn't even see both processors.
Therefore you do not have to use all 3 processors in the 360.
You could just run one and it should be fine.

[Shadow Flare]

How much more proof does anyone need to show that the Xbox 360 is incredibly badly designed AND that Microsoft is full of crap?

"Xbox 360 could beat PS3 in Folding" - says Peter Moore
http://www.n4g.com/NewsCom-...

There's a small breed of people who would actually believe that. And it begins with RE and ends in TARD and often involves fans of the xbox 360

Like i said in that article i posted a link to, Microsoft is out to get one up on sony at every oppertunity they get. But with an issue like this, there are so many articles now stating how useless the 360 will be at folding@home and thus proving Microsoft complete tards for making ridiculous claims designed to undermine sony

"Xbox 360 not as useful as PS3 for Folding@home

Vijay Pande, creator of the Folding@home project, which harnesses the power of networked Playstation3s across the world to carry out essential research into Alzheimer's Disease, has revealed to Pro-G that the 360 is of limited help to his work."

http://www.n4g.com/industry...

So OK, 360 is no help with folding@home. "Well im glad i bought a games console for gaming" is the common backfall of an xbox inbred. Get a load of what this article says, "The design and construction of the Xbox 360 CPU, GPU, and motherboard cause the board to warp under normal operation conditions. When the board warps, the critical solder joints between the CPU/GPU and the motherboard may fail, resulting in the infamous red ring of death."

Under NORMAL operations? So am i right in reading that the 360 hardware struggles to play its games without crapping out on ya?

If anything this is really a testament to how well the ps3 is built. The PlayStation 3, which logically should have a larger failure rate because its so much more complex. BUT, the be all and end all of this all is that folding@home is a nice side-product of the cell chip. What is evident from the cell is that because it CAN handle an incredible amount of calculations per second, that in turn greatly expands possibilities for games and increases the chances for better, deeper, more creative and interesting games; the likes of which we weren't able to see with the last generation. Combine that with blu-ray and you have the recipe to play b3yond. There's a reason the ps3 is expensive and its going to become very clear in the future. 5 months into the ps3's life cycle, there isn't too much to show for it. 5 months into the 360's life cycle, there was even less to show for it. People forget that. What you can be sure of however is as what we've seen from sony's plans for the future, excitement lays await. And for the things we've yet to see...those are the things that will make people realise why playstation has always been king.

[EaziG]

so that recent article about the Ps3 'literally' killing a xbox360 was probably due to this bendy board problem the 360 has trouble with.

i can image the 360 chugging away with its board slowly melting and warping like a Dali painting under "normal" usage, and all it needed was a PS3 sitting nearby to waft a warm breeze in the 360's sweating and straining face, and BOOM! Red Ring

[Sashy]

So the ring of death when you start folding with Xbox 360 :D

[ZeroAlarm]

...because it killed my 360. It's because of the design of the mainboard- the X-clamps are complete rubbish and cause the mainboard to bend. Whoever designed them - and whoever let them pass through certification - personally needs their ass kicking. I'd really like to be the one to do that :)

[Anego Montoya FTMFW]

it`s simple.
the system (not the software)is Sh!t.
if you don`t think so..........
it`s because you own one that hasn`t broke, yet.
me i know it`s Sh!t, i`ve went thru 2 in about 7/8 months.
the games it has now aren`t bad.(i still think DVD9 is a curse)

basically...
the 360 can do folding.
but i don`t think MS is stupid enough to let it to.

[LoveHateTragedy]

I was pretty sure something was wrong with the architecture, but something like that seems even more critical than I thought. Microsoft might have to go the 'slim-line' route to even start considering altering the motherboard design. It'll cost a lot of money, though not as much as dealing with a 10~12% failure rate. It's no wonder they charge so much for hardware replacement.

Heat generation is obviously a big issue, and it's something Sony doesn't have to worry about since Cell was designed for heat and power efficiency (which is why it's being used in enormous blade servers). Add to that the PS3's amazing cooling system, and there's basically no chance of warping the motherboard in Sony's console. My buddy got an Intel Duo Core laptop, and the sucker emits a ridiculous amount of heat, even with a support fan on the bottom.

In fact, the reason Xenon's L2 cache runs at 1.6 Ghz instead of 3.2Ghz is because it was damaging the rest of the chip due to high heat emission. Microsoft insisted that it wanted a 3-core chip though, so IBM had to compromise certain aspects to make it work. Bogs down performance, but it catered to what Microsoft wanted.

[ITR]

All laptops put out heat.

Well unless you got a thick book style laptop.

The 360 needed a liquid cooling sys.

My Power Mac runs dual 2.5 PPC processors, but needs liquid cooling to stay cool.

PPC arch runs too hot. At 2Ghz and up the PPC needed liquid cooling to stay cool in PM's.

[Gatlin]

People who read the article and know anything about bill gates would see that bills who is retiring to become a humanitarian would love nothing more than to help cure diseases with his army of power pcs. its not that ms doesnt want to do it that ms not just the xbox division has decided with good reason that running folding on xbox's 10 million computers would do the world a great good it cant cause it would cause xbox's to fail at a higher rate and cost them their reputation. and this is regaurdless of if the project used 100% or a fraction of the processing power of the machines...its just not gonna happen till they fix their current hardware...

[carlman23]

Let's look at this rationally:

On the plus side, Folding @ Home is a good thing that's going to help some scientists in California improve the technology of 3D structural protein predictions. This may lead to all kinds good advances in the ability to predict disease states due to misfolded proteins (incidentally the people at PSM who claimed that this project is meant to cure cancer are idiots).

On the minus side, despite all the hype that F@H is getting, no one bought their PS3 to run distributed scientific computing!!! This should be regarded as a nice secondary benefit to the system, not some kind of selling point. If Microsoft didn't design the 360 to handle the processor-intensive F@H, who cares? The console war is going to be about games, not folding. I really don't think that the Sony-machine should be hyping F@H as much as it is because, from speaking to friends and acquaintances, people seem to think that it's just trying to take away attention from the current dearth of games the system is suffering from.

So why don't we just look at this as a nice way that gaming is helping the scientific community (of which I am part) and leave it at that? Or is this too much to ask?

[sevenout]

The Cell and the 360's processor are relatively equal, but I would give the edge to the cell as it was designed specifically for applications beyond the PS3, specifically in supercomputer-type applications. However, the GPU in the 360 is considerably more powerful than the PS3, but I seriously doubt Microsoft would give access to the GPU for security reasons.

As for dead xboxes, my launch 360 died a few months after launch and they replaced it for $130, but then refunded my money, after it became obvious there was a design/production flaw. My replacement 360 has given me no problems and I have left it on for days at a time. I have not had any problems with my PS3 either, but, then again, I really have not used my PS3 for game playing nearly as much as the 360, but I have watched a lot of Blu-Ray movies on the PS3 which supposedly tax the PS3 to it's max.

[bootsielon]

"The Cell and the 360's processor are relatively equal..."

If "relatively" means that Cell is more than twice as powerful, then sure.

"...the GPU in the 360 is considerably more powerful than the PS3..."

So, you say the GPU is alone more powerful than the whole PS3? You're an idiot.

The general consensus of the developers is that Xenon (X360 GPU) is slightly better than the RSX (which I believe to be true due to flexibility, not due to maximum raw output). But developers also said that the Cell is much better than Xenos (X360 CPU). They've also said they need blu-ray and it's preferable to have an HDD out of the box. So overall, PS3 > X360. On my opinion, RSX is more powerful than Xenon in certain scenarios, i.e., if you know how to program specifically for its strenghts, which would never be touched by the Xenos (but admittedly, the Xenos has other strenghts that can't be touched by RSX).

Cell > Xenos

Cell + RSX > Xenos + Xenon

Cell + RSX + Blu-ray + HDD > Xenos + Xenon + DVD

[LoveHateTragedy]

Blu-ray movies actually don't tax PS3 hardware very much. Apparently Cell alone can decode 12 HD videos at the same time, which is pretty crazy. Xenos, in isolation, is slightly more capable than RSX due to the high efficiency of Unified Pipelines. However, once placed in their respective environments, RSX actually performs better. Cell is partially to thank for that (pre-culling, progressive mesh, and other vertex functions run faster on Cell), as are the FlexI/O and dedicated memory architecture. [This info is straight from developers]

ATI did a Great job, but unfortunately Flextronics and Microsoft didn't build a proper working environment for the GPU.

[Wargasm]

Oh now i get it!

before you added in the + sign and the > than signs i really never understood which console was more powerfull....

But thanks to your algebraic skills i can now sleep at night.

[CyberSentinel]

If I wanted to run spyware apps, I would just download BonziBuddy.
Lemmings are the epitome of ignorance. You care more about a spybot, then games for your PS3. You don't even deserve to be called gamers.

Blind Lemmings, Turn In Your Gamer Cards.

@28.1: If you really want to help cancer victims, make a donation. Otherwise stop pretending like you care, by doing the absolute minimum to help. (IF it even helps AT ALL)

[Kenshin_BATT0USAI]

hmmm who cares... well the only people i can think of are the people who want to live.(which is a lot of people)

Why don't you rot in your basement, because from what you're saying all you do is play games.

[mcintosh233]

i'm sick of this help a scaff crap. get a job
(i'm aware what f@h is BTW)
its just i'm sick of all these people pretending to care about all this bollocks to make them look like nice people.

wonder if any of the folders will see any of the profits if a breakthrough occurs. DON'T THINK SO

[Kenshin_BATT0USAI]

I don't think people are in this for profits.

Seriously don't even try to say crap like "I don't care if I live" because frankly thats a load of bs.

[mcintosh233]

and you are paying their bills
buying computer paying elecy

they must be thinking how the hell are we getting away with this
kerching

[kamakazi]

theres the cyber monkey. silly cyber monkey youre kind will never evolve, poor poor cyber monkey and his lemming fetish.

[hfaze]

LOL

[alsef07]

i WOULDNT LEAVE MY 360 ON ALL NIGHT, I WOULD BE SACARED OF THE RINGS OF DEATH, ANYWAY I DO LOVE THE SYSTEM, AND EVEN IF IT BREAKS ILL GET ANOTHER ONE, BUT YEAH I DONT BELIEVE IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO USE FOLDING@HOME FOR 360

[Aramis001]

Can't we just take the damn app and see how it runs on the 360 BEFORE we all kill each other over this? I mean holy sh*t this article is pure flamebait. Just the way it's written you know the author is heavily biased. I mean, how do we know what the 360 would do if you ran this? Do any of you really know? Have any of you ran it on a 360 yet? No. No you haven't. When you try it out on a 360 for real and it blows up send me a picture and I'll submit to the truth. Until then stop whining about it and play your F***ing video games.

[mcintosh233]

WASTE OF YOUR MONEY. NOT SURE WHAT THE WATTAGE OF A PS3 IS.

eLECTRICITY BILLS ANYONE

ps destroying the environment or not F@H your choice hahaha

[Kenshin_BATT0USAI]

Yup you're right money does matter more than life, I never thought about that.

Note the sarcasm.

p.s. you forgot the cap on the 'e' in your second line.

[mcintosh233]

whats this help or die bollocks. i'm fine, great in fact.

what about all the people who are gonna die because of the global warming caused by this.

you're a mug

the small e was deliberate i was fishing for retard

[Kenshin_BATT0USAI]

Well that actual makes sense. Now I know why Xbox360 doesn't have F@H and why the red lights of death occurs.

[Cyrus365]

Look I don't know why people get worked up about certain things here...

There are Certain things X-box 360's aren't good at, just like there are things PS3 isn't good at. Running crazy calculations isn't an X-360 strong point, i'm sure it could do it, just not as well as PS3.

Just like one of the strengths of X-box is the ease of coding, and online intergradation, which PS3 is not up to par.

And you can go on and on, about various consoles strength and weakness.

[shotty]

"The design and construction of the Xbox 360 CPU, GPU, and motherboard cause the board to warp under normal operation conditions"

I don't know about the others but my xbox 360 runs in normal conditions for the past 18 months and it board as not warped to my knowledge. But hey it was made to play games and movies not be apart of some science experiment right? As much as I respect the fold@ home stuff, you can penalize a console for not having it, if it wasnt designed for that use. My 360 has been running full 1080p to running gears and no heat issues here, who know how it'll be running folding for 24/7 but I have a feeling it be just fine.

Folding is a true testiment of the build quality of the ps3, I believe there were some early 360s that had the warping problem but I doubt that is the reason we dont have folding. The xbox 360 was designed as a gaming/media machine not folding and maybe through xna you can help but the folding would really mess up the live integration if all the clock cycle is spent on folding, things like background downloading would have to be reworked. You never know, since everyone is in the "mine is bigger" mood.

[Robotz Rule]

If the 360 had or is going to get F@H,both badboys fighting diseases:)

[Toolman]

yeah it would be great if both had it, i dont get people who bash F@H. Very immature

[FirstknighT]

Well the main reason is simple...Microsoft is to busy bringing us AAA titles. While PS3 concentrates on folding, blue ray, and home. WHERE ARE THE GAMES SONY???

[kamakazi]

too busy bringing games and way too busy fixing the cancer that is the red rings of death, maybe they should make a folding @ home to find a cure for the red rings of death.

[ASSASSYN 36o]

I could care less for folding. I know what it does and know how many years it has been implemented well before ps3. All I want is to play games not systematically screw my electric bill with folding.

[TheExecutive]

IF youre so estranged about running up your electricity bill, why dont you get off of your computer and quit posting worthless crap?

[gta_cb]

hmmm well it isnt available and thats that, i use my Xbox 360 alot, and when the PS3 and great games available on it (im not really into Motorstorm nor resistance) that i BET the folding@home WILL decrease, although people do leave them running over night.

[Firewire]

most of us have known this!
to the 360 fans, we told you!
so can we let the whole thing go now! finally! !

[sak500]

Good for you ps3 fans. Atleast you have one advantage over 360. BTW in winters it will really help you guys to fold since you wont require heaters to warm up your rooms.

FOLD BEYOND

[snoop_dizzle]

from the sounds of it it seems legit, it makes sense.

Now i do wonder if they could use a more stripped down version to use on it if thats possible.

But o well i would probably never use it even if it worked on my 360.

When i get my PS3 ill give it a try.

[sonarus]

I have a 360 and i have a PS3. So far neither systems have failed on me. Never experienced red rings with the 360 and i have played it for hours at a time. However it did scratch my gears of war cd really bad and when i put it in the game it would recongnize gears as a dvd and when i tried to play it. It would pop up with a message like the cd only works in an xbox 360 console. Other than that no problems with the 360. So if the did come with folding at home i'll be brave and put my 400 bucks on the line to save humanity.

[Wargasm]

So apparently if my 360 was left folding at my home over night the motherboard would go ahead and fold over itself!

I never had the 3 rings of death happen to me but i am on my third console....

I bought my first one in the second month since launch. It had SERIOUS overheating problems (i could only play Cod2 30mins before overheating). But i had luckily heard about these things and bought insurance for my system and traded it in painlessly for the one i have now.

[Bathyj]

You know I can kind of understand that you hate BR and stick up for HDDVD because you know BR is a strength for Playstation, even though HDDVD has nothing to do with your console, but this is ridiculous fanboyism.

Knocking a good cause because of your irrational hatred of a console is pathetic. And then some of you have the cheek to act like you're worried about electricity consumption and the environment. Whatever.

I hope you people get cancer and then are cured by Playstations......and then you shoot yourself.

[Bhai]

I'm just no longer in doubts about 360. Its just not the machine I've been hoping to keep my eyes on. It not the above article that has rendered me so but the overall quality of games. 360's games are just traditional in every aspect. If the visuals are superb...the gameplay, physics and nuances are old-gen(Gears), if physics is good the visuals are straight ugly or past-gen(Forza-2, Halo-3). I mean there isn't anything that makes you say WOW.

So, why I'm saying this on THIS article, its because of the same strategy by Sony to have a solid and ultra CPU that renders 360 a kid. Some 360-fanboys are just trying to ease themselves by saying that 360 is all about games...well xbox was like that too. It had a good dedicated, custom and uber GeForce3 in it and a so-so CPU. PS2 had no dedicated GPU, but the CPU was Cheeka-Booom !!! The Emotion-Engine in PS2 has recently shown you god of war 2...that's all the proof we need. Xbox even choked while running the rain simulation of MGS-2 although shader effects were awesome. Same happens now, good GPU stuff but no raw power in 360...
...If you have more raw power(like PS2 had)you can make even all the GPU operations on a CPU(Shadow of the Colossus, Primal, GhostHunter, GT4, god of war 1/2, Soul Calibur 3 etc.) but having no raw power means you are limited. PS3's raw power has already shown you MotorStorm and Lair...Just wait till you see Uncharted and White Knight Story !

[IPlayGames]

But it would kill the console.

End of story.

[AzaziL]

when i first started seeing these folding articles, i only thought what would happen if i played my 360, then let it run that program for countless hours strait. I knew it's only a deathwish because it's only a matter of time before those rings will show, as something I've learned about the 360 is that it can't be used on a continuous basis. It overheats, bottom line, and I wouldn't risk cutting into the life of my 360 just so some researchers could do their homework at my expense.

[BIadestarX]

I know Sony fanboys love articles like this since it makes the 360 seem like a piece of crap. I don't have a valid question.

"If Microsoft releases a F@H client for the 360, they could be facing a financial and public relations nightmare. The F@H client uses 100% of the CPU power, and if possible, 100% of the GPU power of the device while running. This generates tremendous amounts of heat, which places components under high stresses. It's a worst case scenario for hardware designers."

Why it has to use 100% of the GPU or CPU? Just like any other program it can be designed to NOT USE 100% and it will still be more powerful that most of the PC running Folding. You are aware that you can download folding for your PC today right? Even if you have an old computer you can run home. So, even if the version of folding for the 360 is designed to use 50% of all available cores + GPU it would still be more powerful than most computers using folding. We are talking about folding people.. this is something that you will start, turn off your tv and leave. are you fighting over which console does better folding? I think you people are reaching the point where famboyism is too small for some of you guys.

[bootsielon]

...the 360 IS a piece of crap, you don't need to be a fanboy to realize that. Or are you the lucky one that has had a 360 last for more than three months with no glitches, disc scratching, HDD dying, freezing or burning?

[ChefDejon]

if in the next gen Xbox 720 ps4 era u have to use radiator coolant in ur console because of how powerful they will be and keep them in a freezer. just a joke.

why is there so many xbots on this story i thought they dont like folding or is it be because this article is showing light that the Ps3 is more powerful than the 360 and they dont want to believe so they call out bogus. if this story is bogus why hasnt microsoft jumped on F@H dont they care about cancer or the Xbox really might brick if it does F@H..... i go with the second one cause u know it is made for gaming and gaming only says the xbots. but then Again whooo Knowwss

[Maddens Raiders]

Dean Takahashi: - "So why isn't F@H on the 360 Peter?"

Peter Moore: - "Two words: fatal flaw"

LOL -Furthermore, "With customer dissatisfaction as high as it already is, this isn't a risk Microsoft can afford to take. Add this to the incredible cost to repair each console (which is already financially draining Microsoft's Home and Entertainment Division), and Folding @ Home is a lose-lose proposition for Microsoft. Don't expect to see it anytime soon, if ever."

Not exactly stated by PM but kind of funny.

Piraat - I wish there was a vote or something for the "Rookie COmment of the Month." You would most certainly obtained it with #16. What a doozie. Leveled at the Mart like a Lion dictating traffic on the savanna. Marty dude yo0u got P - W - N - E - D bro. Go clean your shorts man.

Cheers

[Bathyj]

I also had a giggle at "Fatal Flaw" remark.

It conjured an image of a 360 trying to fold and burning itself out and then a PS3 standing in a heroic pose over its downed opponent with the superimposed title "Flawless Victory !"

Of course this just flashed in my minds eye in a second. Its funny how my brain works.

[WilliamRLBaker]

I'll believe this when i see it, let alone soldering contacts need what type of tempt to break? 200-300 degrees? I just dont believe it, ITs much more likely bad soldering jobs.

[nix]

... MS should cure the "cancer" that plagues 360s... it's called "rings of death"... enough said!

[Maddens Raiders]

Yes, this article hurts Microsoft loyalists to their "core". The original 360 is a capable games machine. This is a known factor. The problem is that it's just not a "loaded" nex-gen system, (certainly not by mid-2007 standards) and the PS3 is. Microsoft fans are sick and tired of being hosed and fleeced. From the core to the 3L33T to the potential Blu-ray 360, the hardware issues, the problems with shoddy manufacturing, update crashing and overall reliability is absolutely inexcusable for such a device in this day and age. Believe me, if these problems were plaguing the PS3 -- the world would bury SNE in a 20,000 foot hole with the Balrog, never to be heard from again. It's amazing that 360 is surviving this. I'll give 'em that. THe reason is that the "world" feels that SNE owes them something because the prices SNE charges for their devices. But guess what -- you get what you pay for in the electronics world. And it couldn't be any clearer at this stage in the game.

We've said since Summer 2006 on this site, that this will certainly
be a marathon to the end, but judging by things at this stage (the PS3 hasn't even been out a full 7 months!) and considering the metamorphoses the 360 has undergone I think it's clear to see by any discernable eye: who is dictating policy and who is reacting to it. It's difficult to extinguish the heart of a champion and the PlayStation brand certainly adheres to that principle.

They know all of this (and I'm not oblivious to the successes on the 360: GOW, Blue Dragon, Madden, Saints Row, Dead Rising) -- and at the end of the day the tangible hatred proves it. Hence the bubble bashing, whining, and constant al-quaeda sniper shots @ anything favorable for the PS3. Sad but true. Not all, but a considerable lot of Microsoft fans troll the PS3 threads like crocs looking for unsuspecting swimmers. When the time is right, they rip into the flesh with reckless abandon, imposing their will trying to throw people off topic with hyperbole, conjecture, and frivoluos off-topic comments. It's the reason why the PS3 / SNE stories DOMINATE the news. This is why. Fanboyism @ it's rawest form -- all on display at N4G. Sad.

I see more Microsoft fanatics with 2 to 1 bubbles than any others. Is this a coincidence? Methinks not. You can't keep bubbles by walking into a lion's den -- throwing rocks and hoping to escape on foot. Not logical.

Cheers

[Sphinx]

Now I'm doomed to use my video game console for playing video games?!? That sucks! That's not why I bought it!
Wait, Captain Obvious wants to say something, too: "Sphinx uses sarcasm".

[gunnar2906]

We can discuss this for ages. But the only fact is that there is no F@H client for X360 platform.

We can always read at X360fan sites articles like 'someone called me and told that EA didnt like PS3" that can not be checked at any possible way for an ordinary console user.
And we can read articles like "Forza 2 is a GT HD killer" Almost all fan sites wrote that.
There are 2 way to check it. First one is to read 1000 articles that say that Forza 2's graphics is better and begin to believe that. The second is to switch on X360 and download Forza 2 Demo, then switch PS3 and download GT HD demo. It is very good if you have both consoles connected to one HD TV set. Then it is reasonable to start F2 demo on X360 and GT HD on PS3, choose Honda painted in black and begin racing on both consoles. Usually it is very easy to switch between 2 consoles with a simple button click on а remote. That is all. I tried to find killing graphics and even some killing pixels generated by fabulously powerfull 48 vertex shader pipelines of Xenos with a big magnifying glass but didnt find any. The question is What are all 1000 articles are worth of? For a customer they are worth nothing. For Microsoft - 2.3 billion dollars

Thanks Deep!

Sorry my bad English - I'm from Moscow, Russia