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Video Game Warzone #49: Does The Wii Have A Negative Impact On The Hardcore Market

Torrence Davis of The Bitbag writes, "On this episode we discuss why 3rd parties view the Wii as a casual games console and how it's negatively affecting the hardcore market. Red Steel 2 for instance, looks to be an awesome game. How is it that you wield a sword and carry a gun, killing everything in your path but yet there's no blood in the game? This is what I call the Wii Effect. Ubisoft is catering to the casual market so they are dumbing down what could be a great game.

Also on this show:

* What if PS3 and 360 both launched in Nov 2006? Where would they be now? (Torrence)
* PS3 Slim a reality? (Torrence)
* Blaze Blue and the lost art of 2D fighters and games(Torrence)
* What does it mean when you say that you're not a fan of a console (Weapon X)
* Asteroids being made into a film (Chad)
* Gaikai is groundbreaking and will change PC gaming forever (Hiphopgamer)
* And much much more…"

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SpoonyRedMage3031d ago

"On this episode we discuss why 3rd parties view the Wii as a casual games console and how it’s negatively affecting the hardcore market. Red Steel 2 for instance, looks to be an awesome game. How is it that you wield a sword and carry a gun, killing everything in your path but yet there’s no blood in the game. This is what I call the Wii Effect. Ubisoft is catering to the casual market so they are dumbing down what could be a great game."

If you need blood to justify a game's classification as hardcore you're a pathetic loser. Red Steel 2 isn't being dumbed down at all, it's just not having blood. Blood doesn't equal hardcore and playing M-rated games only doesn't mean your hardcore.

Go back to Gears of War and pretending your somehow better than someone else because the game you play is gratuitiously violent.

tordavis3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

Where did I say you needed blood for it to be classified as a hardcore game? What I was saying is that it's being dumbed down, in other words, made less violent to cater to the casual market. Red Steel is a game for hardcore gamers. By taking out the blood, they are trying to appeal to the Wii's largest demographic, the casual gamer. Lrn2read before you respond.

ChickeyCantor3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

" ow is it that you wield a sword and carry a gun, killing everything in your path but yet there’s no blood in the game. This is what I call the Wii Effect. Ubisoft is catering to the casual market so they are dumbing down what could be a great game."

You said no blood is CASUAL. So the "great game" refers to "HARDCORE"?
Fact is even "casual" people would like to have blood.
People pretend "casual" people are only kids and housewives(hell even some housewives masturbate to the mentality of killing their own husband). While infact the "casual" group also exist out of ...basically ANY TYPE OF HUMAN BEING.
Movies are casual as hell, yet on loves to see blood while the other rather goes to a movie about romance.

@ below
"They want that Teen rating to sell more games. I think that's bs. "

Even a "E" game can be hardcore, dont fool yourself.

"Imagine if Sony took the blook and gore out of GOW3 so they could sell more copies to the casual market?"

ITS CALLED GAME-DESIGN and your TARGET AUDIENCE.

tordavis3031d ago

I never said "no blood is casual." I implied that by removing the blood, they are catering to the casual market. They want that Teen rating to sell more games. I think that's bs. Imagine if Sony took the blook and gore out of GOW3 so they could sell more copies to the casual market?

SpoonyRedMage3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

Ubisoft have never really had a bloody game even the Tom Clancy games and Assassin's Creed aren't M-rated. It's more about an intentional design choice in fitting with Ubisoft's philosophy than dumbing down for the Wii userbase.

EDIT: There was never blood in it. It wasn't designed to be bloody, it's not part of the game's appeal.

tordavis3031d ago

I talked to the game's lead designer. They want blood in the game but Ubisoft won't allow it. Listen to the show and then come back and debate it.

ifhd3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

Thank GOD that people like Tor are a minority among gamers.
Blood doesn't equal hardcore.
"Imagine if Sony took the blook and gore out of GOW3 so they could sell more copies to the casual market? "
I will enjoy it even without the blood and gore.

La Chance3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

off topic : Im jealous of Metroid: Other M. It looks fantastic but I dont have a Wii, the only game that makes me want to have one.

Parapraxis3031d ago

Wow Torrence, I'm baffled at how some of these people here can't use simple understanding or logic and simply jump to attack you.

And it'd be nice if people actually LISTENED to the podcast before reading a brief description and jumping to conclusions.

ChickeyCantor3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

O yeah sure para, we just have an argument against his words ( i mean he obviously keeps confirming our point with each comment) and its a direct battle field right?

"Attacking" is an overstatement.

Read your comment towards Arius, If anything you are the one attacking here. Get your head out of your ass and stop being ironic.

0verdrive3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

although i understand the argument that blood != hardcore

the argument that the lack of blood in this game where you are shooting and stabbing/chopping things was not an deliberate choice to grab a younger and more casual market just seems foolish to me.

in the post-e3 warzone, torrence mentioned that he talked to the red steel 2 developers at e3, and they specifically said that they WANTED to put the blood in the game and make it more mature, but the distributors would not allow them to include it, no doubt to cater towards the younger, less mature audiences.

once again i dont want to generalize and say that younger, less mature gamers can not be hardcore gamers. but as an older, more seasoned gamer, i would like to think that if i wanted to pick up this title, i might be disappointed in its neutered presentation. i dont want to lose out on my gaming experience because the distributors are aiming at the largest demographics for the wii which are 15 and under or 45 and older.

if they omitted blood from any of the call of duty or gears of war games to allow it to appeal to younger audiences, everyone would be up in arms. why is it all the suddenly ok to neuter a wii game and claim that "that is the way it was meant to be played"

and at the person who said that the gow series would be more enjoyable without the graphic violence: personal opinions aside, i think that the general consensus is that the thing that made god of war so popular is the gratuitous portrayal of violence. that is the appeal and what drew so many people to the game. i understand that perhaps you may have found it more enjoyable without blood and guts, but i would guess that you are in the vast, vast minority.

@tor: you ever regret putting stuff onto n4g? it seems that you get only minimal traffic from it, and most people just read the headlines and try and slander your name. i doubt most of the commentors even listen to the podcast. it just seems like you are saying what everyone is thinking, but for some reason they see tordavis or hiphopgamer, and they have to go out of the way to argue against perfectly legitimate and sensical points. it would seem like one would get really tired of this crap really quick. anyways, keep up the good work man.

Mahr3031d ago

"And it'd be nice if people actually LISTENED to the podcast before reading a brief description and jumping to conclusions."

While it would be nice, if I read that counter right, 4:16:19 means that that thing has a run-time of four hours, sixteen minutes, and nineteen seconds. Requiring everyone to have an hour (let alone almost four and a half) to spend sitting around listening to guys talking is simply not a reasonable expectation.

I could think of about a dozen ways I would rather use that time for -- hitting myself in the face with a hammer, for one.

SprSynJn3031d ago

Some kids here need to pay attention during English class instead of day dreaming about arguments on a message board. You cannot "be" ironic sidar. I suggest you take your arrogance elsewhere lest you look the fool.

ChickeyCantor3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

" You cannot "be" ironic sidar. I suggest you take your arrogance elsewhere lest you look the fool"

I wasn't refering to him as a person, but the things he said.

You know the most common insult on the internet involves language, and its really an old one too. You say that i should go elsewhere with my arrogance, yet i find it funny how you came in to tell me my "engrish" is bad just to bash me. You my friend is arrogant, you didn't even say anything towards the topic at hand.
If anything you are arrogant to pretend you are a flawless human being.

I suggest you STFU. And STFU some more.
Your pathetic attempt to insult me failed.
I may -look- like a fool, but you are the fool.

Have a good day.

SprSynJn3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

"You my friend is arrogant..."

Ironic. It looks as though my advice to pay attention during class has been wasted. Pity. Although I am one to make mistakes as well, so I really have no bounds to insult one's "engrish" (I wonder if you even know what that misspell refers to). May I offer some more advice? When someone "insults" you, kicking your nerd rage into full gear is not necessary. Next time try and take in what the other person says as a way to better yourself. When you are told that your arrogance is not needed, then take a step back and actually see if there is a possibility that it might be true instead of blowing your top because that person has made you look foolish.

To be beneficial to the topic, I will add that I do not think the Wii has made a negative impact on gaming. It has just altered it for a different audience. I would think that without the Playstation brand, the Wii audience would not really be around. They really are the 'casual' players and will go to wherever they are most comfortable. Right now it is the Wii and the DS. Last generation it was the Playstation 2 and the Gameboy Advance. In my opinion, the Wii did not bring anyone to the table that wasn't here before. Kind of random in some places, but does it meet your expectations sidar? I see you cannot reply anymore, so I will just take that as a "yes".

N4g_null3031d ago

I hope this does have a negative impact on games. I just got finish playing some blazblu and I don't remember seeing any blood at all. I don't remember any blood in SF4 either.... maybe it was there I don't know?

Maybe the developer was pulling your change and steriotyped you as a barbaric gamer that loves bloody games. I don't see you guy doing any reviews about fragile or sky crawlers? Maybe your type of journalism is what is wrong with gaming?

Are you not imposing your own ideas of what is hardcore on your readers or listeners?

Another thing is why should we care if our games have blood in them. It is in Gladiator and no one cared. Also the stuff in GOW3 is a little over the top IMO and the blood in GoW obscured the view.

We are playing games here not watching Hostle. I just need some thing that says my sword hit some one.

Oh yeah we got blood in NMH also and that was released by ubisoft.

I think some one is pulling your chain or either you are now trying to get the Wii audenice envolved in the BS game console war.

Either way until you put a name with who said it then I'm not believeing that.

Also no one wants to listen to your pod cast. If you can not type up what you want to say then you just will not be heard.

Maybe they are going for certain rating because they are maybe putting more money into this game but seriously that is up to the development team.

If they don't like it then go to EA LOL.

The PS3 slim well if it is coming then cool dev cost will be the same if you have already bought your set up.

Blazblu rocks every one should play it.... ask your self where is the blood in that game?

Also if pokemon had blood in it would it be hardcore to you then what about yoshi story?

No one cares about the console war any more try telling people about games that matter and stay off the BS theory stuff, I'm betting none of you have masters in socialogy or physc. So don't go there. If some one does not believe they are a fan of a console then let them be. They have their reasons. Trying to assume why is a mistake.

Seriously you could make you "gaming news" a lot better if you stopped acting like kids.

Try going to google and typing hardcore gaming 101 to get a clue, you will find a web site that has ever game I have ever played or wanted to play. Try talking about that stuff then come back to this gen and tell me what you think.

+ Show (12) more repliesLast reply 3031d ago
Gr813031d ago

I keep hearing the term "casual gamer" thrown around as well as hardcore gamer thrown around with nary a clear definition of what each one means.

Seriously, that is one of the dumbest paragraphs I've ever read; "Wii Effect" "Hardcore market" Hope this fails approval, the last hing we need on N4G is another dumb article.

Parapraxis3031d ago

Awe =(
These oh-so complex ideas are too much for your brain?

Gr813031d ago

I guess you gotta be blind in order to read brail.

ifhd3031d ago

What is a HARDCORE game?
What is a casual game?

ChickeyCantor3031d ago

A miserable pile of secrets?
But enough talk.

TheColbertinator3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

The Wii has plenty of hardcore games but hardcore gamers aren't generally violent.Hardcore games are based on game length,strong story,deep characters,difficulty,customiz ation and innovative gameplay mechanics.The Wii has had plenty of those games like Madworld,The Conduit,No More Heroes,and Fatal Frame IV(Japan-only).I have a Wii and I only play hardcore games on it that have the above qualities.

The Wii is not destroying hardcore gaming,only 3rd party developers if they wish to stop making hardcore games.Ubisoft and their crappy Wii games come to mind.

ChickeyCantor3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

This is how i would have said it
To define a person to be a "hardcore" gamer, its not the games that are hardcore. For i don't think games are "hardcore" or "casual". But the amount of time and effort one person puts into a game.

I have used this example trillions of times and will use it again:
Tetris does not have a deep story,strong story,deep characters and innovative gameplay mechanics( at least not now anymore).
So basically Tetris would be a "casual" game right?
Yet trying to get 999 lines in tetris is more hardcore than what most games of today *cough* automatic regenerating health *couch* sh/t out.

Games are not hardcore, the person is, based on time and effort spent.

wii is not destroying anything, neither are the other 2, however gamers and their weak mentality could actually push things in the wrong direction. Remember publishers do research to what kind of games people like, if they only catch stuff like blood and gore, yeah...
(Look what happened to publishers and the "party games",in the end its consumer that sways publishers)

TheColbertinator3031d ago

@Well said as always Sidar.

Anyway Tetris is actually very hardcore because it comes to a point in which the difficulty will test any gamer.If a person picks up Tetris and plays for 10 minutes,then leaves,that person might be a casual gamer who plays a little just for fun.Now then a hardcore gamer would push himself to the deepest levels of difficulty for Tetris.I am familiar with a gamer who plays hardcore games casually like someone who plays 10 minutes of Cod4 or Street Fighter 4 and then moves on.That is casual.

Also the regenerating health concept is a move towards casual gamers since games like System Shock 2 and Duke Nukem really bumped up the difficulty with lack of health regen.However if the game has casual qualities like health regen but has a good story,a polished online experience and a strong independent main character then its a hardcore game.

Minigames aren't hardcore but if they are added on to a hardcore game like GTA:San Andreas or Yaluza 3,then they fit into the entire experience successfully.I don't hate casual gamers or child gamers and I welcome each one to the Wii experience with open arms but I don't plan on picking up the new Petz or Wii Fit,because I prefer my Wii to be used for games that cannot exist anywhere else like Metroid Prime 3 or Metroid Gaiden

tordavis3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

Well put Steven!!!!

I think the intention of Tetris was 'casual game' but the hardcore gamers took it to extreme levels. I believe you can have, as I've said before, casual-hardcore gamers too. These are the guys that buy 1 or 2 games and MASTER them. Look at those Guitar Hero freaks.

I'd have to say that Steven said it best. I'm just worried that more games will get dumbed down to Teen ratings so that casuals and parents will buy them for their kids. I want a more realistic experience in my games. When I impale someone through the back I want to see blood. Is that so bad?

ChickeyCantor3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

"ut I don't plan on picking up the new Petz or Wii Fit,because I prefer my Wii to be used for games that cannot exist anywhere else like Metroid Prime 3 or Metroid Gaiden"

Of course, but this is called personal taste.
But you can't deny that to each and every person their "passionate" drive for playing a particular game is, in the end, still something of their own. So lets say someone likes to play Petz or Wii-fit. This does not mean he or she is "casual" because you define yourself to be hardcore due the games you play. Like i said in the end its all about how many hours you put into a game on daily basis( of course depending on your circumstances).

@tor,
Think for a second, Games are made with a TARGET AUDIENCE.
There will never be a time when ALL developers are gonna "dumb" down stuff because they want the casual market.

Casual market = BS.
The word you are looking for is MAINSTREAM. Its true that every developer wants to reach as many people as possible. HOWEVER with their intentional design and decided Target audience, you dont have to worry that your God Of War will go without blood in future installments.

Seriously you are "afraid" for something that is so illogical.

" When I impale someone through the back I want to see blood. Is that so bad?"

Again this is depending on TARGET AUDIENCE. if they make a game with gore and blood, they are aiming for people like you, its called a target audience. If you honestly believe all developers would just erase the concept of "target audience" then you are just ignorant and naive. You have "Ideas" followed by "target audience" this is decided WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY before production even begins.

TheColbertinator3031d ago

@Sidar

Disagree on that one.Games like Wii Fit and Petz are designed with a casual concept in mind.They are focused on giving gamers simple fun or a quick fix for your gaming needs.You can play them for a 1000 hours but they are still casual because there a few or no concepts or mechanics that define an immersible experience.

ChickeyCantor3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

" Games like Wii Fit and Petz are designed with a casual concept in mind."

So was tetris, and Super mario bros/zelda/metroid/megaman whatever game on the NES. They were all designed for a "casual" market because Nintendo and Sega werent going for a niche market, they were as Nintendo is today after everyone.

But those games still got us going for hours did they not?
It doesn't matter with what mentality it was designed or created. If these games are indeed made for a 10 minute play time a day, doesn't mean the user will and shall play 10 minutes a day. If a kid plays petz for hours...what makes him any different from us? Do we not put much time in a game? Would that kid not put many hours into a game?

I get what you are saying about challenges and what not, but even then. I can also play a game for 15 minutes and finish a challenge because it was easy for me, does this suddenly mean im a casual gamer?

" no concepts or mechanics that define an immersible experience."
As I said in my original post, its not the game who makes one a "hardcore" gamer, the concept that define immersible experiences are still "subjective" to each and every person.
Think about it, you can think one game is awesome and immersible as hell, but at the same time i could think its trash.

Why would a kid not be sucked into a game like petz? Why else would he play it for hours?
Honestly Games are just games, like movies are movies.
There is content for everyone, people should just drop the whole Hardcore act, cause at the same time they play Flash games online, yet scream at " casual" gamers for playing mini games.

really duh3031d ago

I agree with Sider's first comment.

Casual gamers don't play as often only playing when in the mood(Nothing to do, social gathering)

Hardcore gamers are addicted to gaming and gaming is more a hobby to them always keeping in the up and up always looking forward to playing also seeing gaming as art/sport etc.

TheColbertinator3031d ago

I disagree Sidar but I see your point

N4g_null3031d ago

Tor try gettin a job at any dev house and you will see that we all want to maximize profits. The HD console pretty much has one type of gamer on it right now..... every one bets on the HARDCORE FPS or graphic whore... one or the other yet on the Wii you have a much broader audience that includes hardcores and younger gamers who's mom will not let them buy or play certain games. Why not take out a gore fans high and try and challenge your team to make a game that does not rely on gimicks like blood to excite certain gamers?

We are in a recession and we need all game sales inorder to stay afloat hell even id sold them selves to another dev. That is how serious it is becoming. The days of just blowing money are almost gone.

I'm sure NMH2 will have plenty of blood if you need that. You would see this even more on the HD console yet the price is not low enough to warrent a purchase from certain gamers.

To get a game under the blood radar of the people who believe blood is hardcore on the HD system is a great feat and leads to more sales believe it or not.

This is ubisofts choice all the way... it is not because of the Wii at all nore nintendo. Ubisoft knows they can get more sales if moms are fine with it. Kids still do play most of the violent games out and from time to time moms do stop their kids from buying certain games.

Yet we all know as of right now Wii sports resort maybe more hardcore than this game just due to the 1:1 sword fighting it has which will automaticly have more depth.

Which will require a good deal of skill.

egm_hiphopgamer3031d ago

The whole thing about nintendo wii is if you have a hardcore game make it hardcore if you have a casual game make it casual but don't make something you don't want too make such as red steel without blood that game doesn't make sense and the gameplay won't be satisfying at all so it's going to fail. now if ubisoft don't want blood in the game then why make it in the first place your doing a disservice to the hardcore gamer that wants that. how come ubisoft never say anything like ok cooking mama is too casual let's make her put someone's head in the oven and make it explode with blood all over the screen? no they wouldn't do that so if your not going to make a casual game hardcore then don't make a hardcore game casual in terms of game representation

N4g_null3029d ago

So you are arguing why make a hardcore game casual when you don't make a casual game hardcore.

You are presenting a black and white question sir to prove your reasoning. You are also providing an example that proves what you want while ignoring the other facts. We all know no one will buy a cooking mama with exploding oven even though that would be hilarious and very adult swim like but even we know they are not doing the same numbers of some of the bigger networks because that is niche. Remember when red steel 2 was shown people said sweet they got a new art style and the sword movement may be better. No one said a thing about blood. It's not hardcore... no one complained about mega man 9 not having blood? Do we even know if these are humans or cyborgs?

When people talk about killzone 2 do they say well we have better blood effects than you. There is no blood in gran tourism when you wreck. What about burn out paradise? No blood there either?

You forget the reasoning behind making this game is to improve the sword fighting. It is not there to prove ubisoft makes hardcore games on the Wii. The game is here to make money. The style was chosen to make money.

Hardcore games have done just fine with out blood. Good design is about indicating damage and some of the most brutal games rather use animation and game play rather than blood.

I don't know but your argument is a little lame. When you first was the game did you ask your self man I can not wait to see the blood? If so you are in the minority. Maybe people like your site because you are easy to feed news to?

We are talking about people that play games that use points to show a kill rather than bodily harm.

This also fall under the it's not even realistic enough to matter. When a game can show some one getting their chest ripped open while their hearts beats then you will see a lot of people throwing up... does throwing up sell games?

The basic point is you are talking about gamers here they are not blood hungry other wise they would sign up for the military. I mean seriously did you feel threaten at this years E3 or GDC? Nope... now does the hiphop guys like this stuff maybe, but that ould be assuming a lot also.

Another point is arguing about this doesn't make it less lame of a statement.

+ Show (8) more repliesLast reply 3029d ago
tordavis3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

I'll say this much. Hardcore gamers take their gaming more seriously than Casual gamers. Hardcore gamers will b!tch, gripe and petition to keep certain aspects of games intact. We've seen this before with Lair and FNR4 controls. Hardcore gamers play a variety of games. Casual gamers usually own 1 or 2 systems in their life and less than 10 games. Red Steel 2 is what I consider a hardcore game. It's not something that I feel casual gamers would buy. Since Ubisoft is removing the blood, they are catering to the casual market. It's like taking certain elements out of a movie to get a PG-13 rating. Red Steel 2 is still hardcore but don't cater to the casual market, cater to the guys that will appreciate the game. I don't know. I'll admit, it's a tough subject but if you listen to the first hour you'll understand where I'm coming from.

Voice_of_Reason3031d ago (Edited 3031d ago )

Sorry but I do not think that something as simple as blood can make a game casual regardless of what else the game offers. I also believe that if someone isnt allowed to play bloody games by their parents that they are instantly casual.

I think the main issue here is that you think a game has to have mature themes in order to be considered "Hardcore". That's just not the case for any gamer that grew up before the PS1. It was about skill required to beat the game. Which of you and your friends was good enough to beat battletoads and Mike Tyson.

I dont think many pre PS1 era gamer will agree with you at all on your definition of hardcore.

N4g_null3031d ago

Tor if HD gaming would have been more succesful then you would not see ubi making a game to hit a certain age target. You see lots of people have taken hits because of HD gaming. You will see games but niche games will be made by smaller and smaller companies.

They are simply trying to make more money because they know more types of gamers are on the Wii.

If the HD systems where doing fine then maybe red steel 2 would be on those consoles? Yet it is still possible they would go for a certain rating just to make sure it sells.

Part of nintendo's reason for success is they make games for every one.

Because the WIi has been successful they simply have more people to go after.

I have to ask you did the first game have blood in it? Did that matter? If a company wants to loose money just to prove some thing to HD gamers than that is their problem.

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