Whilst fanboys have been drooling over the extra bits and bobs attached to the Vole's latest console release, the Xbox 360 Elite, those in the know have been dissecting its capabilities - and it's not all good news.
I dont get it.
MS are releasing an updated 360 with hdmi-great. Perfect for HDTV isnt it?
Well, what isnt great is that the technology is cutting corners before its released. It is using hdmi 1.2 which means it cant handle TrueHD Dolby. Why?
I like to call this Windows 98 :) Enjoy it you all deserve it!
360 using DVD, so it won't fit in for uncompress PCM, for sure...
that's why 360 will be still 360~ it can't be elite hell
and they already guarantee that the game will be using dvd for sure, so they won't change mind to use HD-DVD rite? HD-DVD drive add-on just for watching movies, that's so funny... I will buy bluray player to watch movie, why should I use 360? it sound so loud~ disturbing me to enjoy my movie for sure.
oh rite... i buy PS3... that would be fun~
I use it with my Xbox 360 right now on a 7.1 stereo.
but from what I recall, optical output is more much limited than HDMI, in terms of bandwidth with respect to the volume of information each is able to carry.
Furthermore, HDMI 1.3 is required to run TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio; version 1.2's architecture simply does not support it. I think 1.3 also has much broader video capabilities than its predecessor (up to 48-bit colour depth vs. HDMI 1.2's 24-bit.)
I'm also quite sure that your current 7.1 digital surround setup is actually 5.1 channels, with the two midway channels (the ones to your side) actually being synthesized by your A/V receiver, which does so by computing (averaging?) values from the the front and rear outputs of each respective side.
except about the receiver part but I won't get into details. High end receivers can do better than 5.1 and averaging values.
You're right though, 1.3 is more then just about sound quality, the visual quality is the 2nd half of the equation. HDMI supports 30 bit, 36-bit, and 48 bit RGB or YCBCR color depths. From millions of colors to billions of colors. Enough of me talking, reat it hear.
Deep Color™: HDMI 1.3 supports 30-bit, 36-bit and 48-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 24-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification.
-Lets HDTVs and other displays go from million of colors to billions of colors.
-Eliminates on-screen color banding, for smooth tonal transitions and subtle gradations between colors.
-Enables increased contrast ratio
-Can represent many times more shades of gray between black and white
-At 30-bit pixel depth, a four times improvement would be the minimum, and the typical improvement would be eight times or more.
Broader color space: HDMI 1.3 removes all limits on color selection
-Next-generation “xvYCC” color space supports 1.8 times as many colors as existing HDTV signals
-Lets HDTVs display colors more accurately
-Enables displays with natural, vivid colors
www.hdmi.org has this info if you want to validate it.
This is good for gaming, movies, anything visual and audible.
Am I right in thinking that LCD screens can only produce 16.7 million colours anyway (8 bit colour per sub pixel) or 256 shades per sub pixel times 3 i.e. 256red x 256green x 256blue = 16.7 million , as opposed to the 3 or 4 billion colours that Plasma screens can produce.
It seems odd MS wouldn't use the latest technology (considering the PS3 does) I appreciate that the difference between 1.2 and 1.3 is big on paper but what do they actually look and sound like in direct comparison? I bet the majority of people couldn't tell the difference until it was pointed out to them.
But I have yet to have any quality problems using mine.
Who cares people are going to buy it anyways.
No one cares Antan move on man. I thought you were a hardcore Sony fan why are you posting 360 news as if you care?. Spite post if i ever seen one.
Haha!! Im rich and i can buy anything i want, and yes ive already purchased a PS3. Now, seeing as your down to 2 bubbles which you have used, why dont we "chat" on XBL, my tag is AnthonyNPutson................ I don`t see how you think im a hardcore Sony fan? Im a fan of course, same as im a fan of the 360 and PC!
"No one cares Antan move on man" You may not care, but im sure there are people out in the world who do very much care.
Now quit yer whining!!
Is this even true need more proof before i take this as fact.
Yep I called MS and they said Elite uses HDMI v1.2 which so little people will be upset due to only a few people having the divices that use 1.3.
Now if MS built the HD-DVD player in the 360 that would upset me, thank god the games are what counts.
Arkham & Icryo i was just going to add your points thanks. After reading about it; HDMI 1.3 will be needed in the future as its able to handle more advaced future signals like some of these fanboys are saying except they are wrong in saying that 1.3 has higher quality picture capabilities as of right now because no one uses 1.3 to the fullest besides sound and the by the time it is used the next box will be out.
bombzombie #21.1 ONCES AGAIN THANKS FOR THE NON FICTIONAL TRUTHS OF THE ISSUE AT HAND, ITS PLEASING TO SEE PEOPLE TAKING CHUNKS OUT OF SONYS HYPE MACHINE ARMOR AS IF "MS" WAS CLUELESS IN BRIAN STORMING WHAT CONSUMERS NEED AND WANT AND WHAT IS PRACTICAL FOR THEM.
Hell most people still have HDTVs that can only fully use HDMI in a PC capacity(only good for PC's and with limited settings).
bombzombie I wish you would have posted first i'm tired of being the Sony fans punching bag as a 360 fan; man.
POG it's true but shouldn't bother anyone for a few months or even a year...but still kind of defeats the purpose of an elite. But still I stay silent :I
ps. if every bad news post meant that the poster was trying to justify their purchase...then themart must be doing that for his 360...etc etc. (which he clearly isnt) All news is news whether bad or not.
then after another year, they're probably going to release an Xbox 360 Elite 2 which i'm pretty sure will include Hdmi 1.3.
...will probably have Blue-tooth controllers, a BluRay drive, built in Wifi...
oh ya, and a big fat PS3 sticker on the side!
Armyless ...LOL... Nice....
seems less and less elite by the day
Make the console cheaper, and get off this spec trip. M$ can't beat Sony at there own game. Sony is an electronics company. M$ can only beat this in the UI software department. Just keep the prem console, drop the price and save the billions that you are about to loose. Stupid move M$, almost as bad as the $600 PS3.
The elite 360 is about IPTV. They need HDCP for the movie and TV viewing at 1080p. I got my 360 to game on and this Elite is not about gaming. M$ has lost a sale from me. People say that the PS3 is not gaming first, but now the 30 is going the same route. Get your head out of your a$$ M$.
As long as it plays games I dont mind, for me its about games.
I have a 5.1 system and use optical and my HDTV only has 1.2 on the HDMI ports. BUT .. why not have 1.3 since you are doing a new SKU
Here is my issue, WHY DOES IT NOT HAVE THE COOLER CHIP IN IT ?? For me that would have been a huge selling feature FOR SURE. Still a bit confused why the new cooler chip is not one of the main ELITE upgrades.
I think the premium 360 will still lead the pack. And for those who are buying an new 360 if their Premium crapped out, I see them buying a core and just swapping their stuff over (Hard Drive, HD Cables) rather than running out and buying an elite.
My Sammy DLP accepts 1920x1080 over VGA which is not effected by the HDCP retrictions so as nice as HDMI would be ... FOR ME .... not a MUST HAVE. The cooler chip would have been for sure. Plus in Canada (or anywhere outside the USA) we don't get the downloadable movies, TV shows, etc, etc. So a 120 HD for me is HUGE OVERKILL. I have Tons of crap on my Hard Drive and still 5 gig to spare.
Well it pretty much lacks in the technology departement and plus Microsoft is giving gamers out dated technology that nobody wants like HDMI 1.2 and the DVD and of course the only thing that the XBox 360 doesnt lack is the XBox live. so in a way the XBox 360 is an out dated console that lacks alot of things like technology except the XBox live no wonder the PS3 is the mercedes.
Microsoft’s upcoming Xbox 360 Elite supports the HDMI 1.2 specification, unlike Sony’s PS3, which is HDMI 1.3 compliant.
HDMI audio output remains crippled with the Xbox 360 Elite. The Xbox 360 Elite, even when connected to HDMI will not output uncompressed multi-channel audio. Xbox 360 HD DVD users hoping to enjoy the full glory of lossless HD DVD audio formats via HDMI should look elsewhere.
of HDMI jargon going on here, can we provide some links. It's really not something I've really looked into since I don't really care for it I don't have the output on my set.
Whats the benefit of HDMI 1.2 vs 1.3 vs Optical?
What does it have to do with DRM?
Plus should we embrace DRM?
Is it really a big deal thats it is not the 1.3 ver thats on the PS3?
If it's not, then why all the fuss?, after all consoles is about Games. I bet you, it's only 8% of gamers that really care about these little differences because they are able to enjoy these consoles to the fullest of capabilities. 60% won't have HD-TV's for another 3 years, and the other 32% don't give a funk, bring on the games.
If you own a 360 you wont know what I'm talking about.
If you own a PS3 you most defiantly will. Try this. POP in a nice blueray movie. one that supports (PCM uncompressed audio) NOTE: it will say on the back of your blueray case. The Covenant will do just fine. Next turn on the movie. Also NOTE the sound will not be set to PCM. It will default to DTS or Dolby Digital 5.1. Press the triangle on the controller and select sound options. hit select on the controller so you can see it what kind od sound you using. Last, hit X into you come to (PCM UNCOMPRESSED) then listen to the difference. It's really like comparing a Tape to a CD. the bitrate it so Hi it sounds like your takeing earplugs out of your ears.
Many people say they don't care blah blah. I never cared about Hi def into I watched it. There truly is no going back.
"Uncompressed PCM 5.1: Found on a large number of Blu-Ray discs but not supported on HD-DVD, uncompressed PCM 5.1 is simply that: an uncompressed version of the film’s standard 5.1 to 7.1 soundtrack. While that doesn’t sound too exciting, believe me when I say PCM 5.1 is a joy to hear. I’ll post my own experiences in a second, but here’s what many reviewers of BD and HD-DVD discs have to say about PCM audio"
We all made fun of how at E3 Sony was talking out there backsides about 4D games. Well it is here already and most of us did not know what they meant, and many of us don't have the money to get it. We always talk about how (Fall of man) is not as good Gears of war.Sorry to open that can of worms again, but does anyone know that Fall of Man has the best sound ever made on any game EVER!? Please check this link and read the whole thing! Its very interesting.
"is this the 4D Sony has promised us? It just might be! ) so that when I heard that ball start to crackle directly behind me, I’d run like hell forwards until it blew. I never had to turn around for a second"
"Here’s the funny thing about 7.1 PCM in Resistance: I was more impressed when “nothing” was happening. Oh, the battles sounded fantastic, with gunfire and explosions all around. But when you’re in a more intimate level when it’s just you vs. them (quite literally) and an open, abandoned earth...it sounds pretty incredible. "
@douglasp below me,
I'm out of bubbles so I can't respond, I must EDIT:(
As far as sound quality goes, optial is just as true as HDMI.
The difference is Optical is limited in bandwidth so it will never support anything higher then PCM 2.0. in english that means you will only get stereo sound out of PCM uncompressed. As far has normal sound goes like 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby there is no problem. If your a sound freak like me then HDMI is the way to go:)
The bandwidth issue with optical is definately a problem with trying to do HD Audio.
I know that whenever you're working with LightPipe, you can multiplex up to eight channels over a single optical cable. The only problem is that once you start upping the bit depth and sample rate on the audio streams, you have to drop down the number of channels you're sending over the fiber.
For example, you can run eight channels of CD audio quality audio (16bit, 44.1Khz). But when you bump that up to DVD audio quality (24bit, 48Khz), you just dropped down to 4 channels. And when you max things out at 24bit, 192Khz digital audio (which sounds FANTASTIC), you are limited to two audio channels over the fiber cable.
So, the only way you will effectively be able to do multi-channel audio over a fiber optic cable is to keep your bit depths and sample rates down. Which translates to lower audio quality.
Optical (fiber) vs HDMI who has more bandwidth? Both can go very high. Optical remember uses light has no electrical interference. Keep in mind also that companys use fiber to interconnect gigabit switches or routers. They use a different connector at the end but its almost the same. Also it is thinner than the ones for for Audio receivers. So yeah I think Fiber can do PCM or what ever they call it in the future just fine. Whether they want you to go that route or not is another story. Just cause "they say" it's better doesn't mean it's better for every person. A high end ferrari enzo is better, "so they say". But do everyone cares about 700hp or better yet even know how to use it.? They will crash like Eddie Griffith just did the other day. Bottom line to each their own and have fun playing games. In this topic have fun listening to Movies only.
One problem with that... In order to work with the largest number of audio receivers, the signal has to comply with the Optical S/PDIF specification.
Even assuming that you're using a premium TOSLINK cable (quartz crystal fiber with really good cladding to minimize beam scatter), you're still working with only 10Mhz of bandwidth. Not to mention, you're still using red laser technology.
Keep in mind that when you're talking about faster fiber technologies like 802.3z (gigabit fiber), or something like an OC-3 or OC-12, you're talking about multiplexing multiple light wavelengths of light, and MUCH more complex transmit/receive mechanisms than what you will see used in an optical S/PDIF setup.
So, when it comes right down to it there IS a difference between HDMI 1.3 and optical S/PDIF, although it would take a pretty serious audiophile and some really good gear to be able to tell the difference.
It sounds simple & so crazy, but
This is Living® =]
"the 360 Elite will only support the HDMI 1.2 specification, as opposed to 1.3, which is the latest and greatest (and ships with the PS3). 1.3 adds support for the transmission of Dolby TrueHD, which is a lossless multi-channel audio (PCM) format being used on top-end HD-DVD discs."
Hello...the Elite does not use HD-DVD discs, so using v 1.2 is outdated but makes sense for Microsoft. Now if someone was to say that the PS3 used this version, then it wouldn't make sense, because it has a next gen disc format.
not 1.2 as is being included in the Elite. But, I have found very few AVR that can support True Dolby HD and only handful can play uncompressed source actually uncompressed. Those that can are in the 5000-8000 dollar range, I still don't see Denon's AVR 4806ci or their flagship AVR AVR-5805ci supporting True Dolby HD. How many AVRs are even offering HDMI 1.3. I know Denon, Pioneer, and Onkyo have both said that later this year they will, but only in their high-end models. I am waiting for the next version of the 4800 series by Denon, which will be expensive. I can't imagine very many people can even afford the AVR technology supported by HDMI 1.3. How many people can actually go into a store and drop 5 grand on receiver.
I also understand that only Blue-Ray supports Deep Color Tech, which does require HDMI 1.3. How long before HDMI version 1.4 becomes available? Maybe this fall or next year. Both the PS3 and the 360 will change throughout their lives because technology is just changing too fast.
Still the HDMI input on the Elite should have been version 1.3, but really how many people can afford the system set-up that can take advantage of such technologial capabilities.
But you're right. You have to be an exec, lawyer or doc to afford these systems fully decked out. If I didn't have a 6-figure, I couldn't afford it.
Seriously, HDMI v. 1.3 requires lots of horsepower!!
At the very least, you will need an A/V receiver in the cost range of $3500 - $5000. The Top of the Line Denon AVR-4306 will be upgraded first, as is custom. Bear in mind that this receiver selling at discount houses is still $2k!! I have one, and it has no HDMI 1.3 support...how much will it cost to add that on? Who knows? I'm willing to bet a C-note no one else currently in this post has one of the old units let alone will be able to afford the new ones.
In addition, I have Sharp's top of the line 65 inch -LCD. Again, I haven't seen Deep Color...they don't even do it in movies yet. Further, I can't link through my stereo to my TV for the number of HDMI devices I have. Further, if you do link through to the TV, you are forced to toslink out to the receiver....THERE IS NO HDMI OUT on any of these TVs. Although, I will admit that uncompressed pcm has higher fidelity, the difference on the M. Logans in my opinion have not been as vast as tape and CD...more like CD and SACD. Yes, it is cleaner sounding, but only with a discriminating ear.
So, this big deal is over a technology that most people won't be able to afford for 10 years because you need a TV capable of 1080P that can handle the MASSIVE bandwith of 1.3. Same for stereo equipment and then a 7.1 channel setup....yep, 7 high fidelity stereo and surround speakers with a subwoofer of matching character.
I hate to say it....but most of you guys on here are silly. Flaming each other on game systems that, to date, have not been fully exploited over how much future technology they have in them which may or may not be adopted by the public (if high-fidelity music was such a big deal, then SACD or DVD-Audio would have killed CD by now, but instead MP3 is king!!) and is super expensive and that's coming from a guy who's doing fairly well for himself.
Let's get back to serious discussions. And the retarded commentators and article writers that haven't fully tested out or possess all HDMI 1.3 equipment with high-fidelity speaker (and at the minimum, they would have to be Polk Audio speakers from Circuit City or Klipsch from Best Buy...and don't get me wrong, those are just marginal!!) and subwoofer. You are the real joke. Starting a controversy over technology that hasn't been fielded, noone has seen, you and most people can't afford, and further you couldn't appreciate in a standardized double-blind test.
Sorry guys, but that's just the TRUTH.
Once again, the BOMB has gone NUCLEAR.
I suppose I'm the one then. I have the Denon 4306. I got it a couple of months ago for a under 2K online. It's spectacular. I'm not a brick and mortar guy about my audio equipment either so I got it direct form Aperion.
I didn't know that Denon was going to create a 1.3 add-on, or that you could. I assumed I would be replacing the receiver which is why I went middle price range.
I agree with you. It would be cool if you could put your setup on here. Your's sounds very nice. I have the 60" XBR2 (1080p), Denon 4306, 7.1 series Aperion speakers (10" sub). It does it's job.
Even though audio and video equipment haven't caught up today, it's right around the corner and the PS3 is ready. MS wants to make you pay again when the receivers come out this year along with the tvs. Not cool...
I've learned a lot about HDMI today, now who wants some...
I still don't have HDMI inputs on my set..what a bummer.
The lack of PCM linear audio really isn't going to bother anyone but the technoelite and opposing fanboys.
Realistically speaking, as with the other 360 vs PS3 bragging points, it's only going to matter to a miniscule percentage of gamers. As daily forum/news site whores, we have to realize that all of these arguments are really only among ourselves, not the bulk of console owners.
The console "war" is not determined by these petty skirmishes.
360 elite is basically a bigger hard drive, a crappy paint job, and a big middle finger from Bill Gates...
What i imagine will end up happening is that M$ will eventually slide the tech that is in the elite(hdmi 120gig hd etc into the premium in around 1-2 yrs and then the elite will end up with hdmi 1.3 and probably a bigger hard drive.
and it should detail people's setups. Kinda like car-audio guys (I admit my car systme cost $4k) have with sounddomain.com.
I am curious to see what type of rigs people have set up in their homes. It's okay to brag about it in words, but unless you show it in pics, no one knows whether you're just spouting off or not. I would love to upload photos of my setup with the 65 inch LCD, Denon AVR, Martin Logan electro-stats, high-end cables, my Ninty Wii, X360 (premium and ELITE- when that arrives) and PS3. And while I think my system is usable, it is clearly not up to snuff in true high-end circles. For so many people who gloss over the technology of HDMI, I wonder how many really understand the HDCP in 1.3 or the ITC that is coming down the pipe. Further, do folks realize how many iterations of HDMI have come out or how many modification have been made due to failures, incompatibility issues and design flaws had to be overcome. I am a tech-head and a gamer through and through. What I would find I suspect is that there are a few others on here like me, but most are not serious. They are just dreamers spouting off about what they wish they had or hoping that the last dollar that they saved up to scrape and pay for their machine of choice was justified.
To those guys and gals, I say relax. Everybody will be competitive this generation. There are no break-away winners unless Wii can fix their production problems, and even then, for many hard-core gamers it is just for casual use. :-) That said...if being part of the 101st Calvary of Blog-fighters makes you happy. Go for it. Me, I'll be playing games on the best system that I have heard anyone disclose on N4G.
centers around the Denon AVR 4802, a Hitachi Directors Series 70 inch LCD, Defenitive series speakers, and a 360 HD DVD and PS3 for High Def playback support. The TV at that size will cost 7-10 thousand to replace in order to get 1080p support and the current Denon 4806ci doesn't even support True Dolby or uncompressed audio fidelities. Who knows what the 4807 will support if and when it's finally announced, let alone what Denon will charge for it when the current 4806ci runs around 3500-4000 dollars.
It use to be that you could stay high end for 5 or more years, but now your lucky if you even get 3 years and be set-up with reasonably advanced technology. I really starting to think that things like HDMI and uncompressed audio are just marketing tools to get people to upgrade every few years, while offering only marginal improvements over years past.
Even though few if any will ever be able to fully take advantage of what HDMI 1.3 can truely offer, I still think that MS needs to be mathing Sony. But, I guess complaining about an interface is sort of stupid when they both play games and movies that look great.
And Oh yeah, go gators. NCAA champs.
MS, do something about this. I demand a 1.3 HDMI, not some old out of date 1.2 technology.
I am a little put off now with all this micro one-up-manship. I have spent $5000 on my setup including the 360 hddvd drive 40" lcd, polk audio and sony receiver setup. Now it all seems outdatted to me, I should have saved for another couple months and got the best of everything rather than the mid range of everything. I already am looking at upgrading to 1080p tv and a gasp a ps3 for movies. It seems ms is just doing the bare minimum and lost the oportunity to really go balls out and produce a true upgrade. All the elite has done is make people bitter and the reason for that is its not worth upgrading to. We would have liked the bigger hd and hdmi from the get go but not worth dropping the coin again to get it. When i look at it i simply ask myself well shoot why not just grab a ps3 instead and have both consoles? so thats what i am gonna do. I honestly think MS has done sony a big favour. I doubt I am alone in this thinking.
You are the man. The fact that you said that is amazing. I would keep my mouth closed about that.
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