Neowin: Is Nintendo killing core gaming?

Neowin.net:
"I know this may seem a little bit overzealous, and maybe the title is a little misleading, but am I the only one who is tired of watching Nintendo's Wii and DS whore out games that are crap at best? Am I the only one tired of having some of the best franchises being dummy downed to the masses? Maybe it's not their fault, as it is, they are just providing the tools for developers to create content.

When you create a gaming console that is fun, easy to play and directed at everyone and not just the gaming crowd, they have to share some of the blame don't they?

Remember when being a gamer meant something?..."

[ChickeyCantor]

O boy,
I hope they are hahahah.
Perhaps then we can go back to a time where "hardcore" meant something else. And you know what "hardcore" definition i'm talking about.

Ever since the PS1, "gaming" became more MAINSTREAM.
Those people, perhaps some of you, were freaking " CASUAL "to the bone. You guys kept playing those games, and now play KZ2 or Gears of War and call yourself " HARDCORE ".

L M A O.
If anything, you people seem more "casual" than hardcore if you consider the extra's you people demand as "gamers".

[Chris399]

You want hardcore, play Demon's Souls. It's a game that kicks your as$ and offers absolutely no compassion for doing so. Yet you go back, again and again, struggling against impossible odds. It requires a huge investment of time, skill and patience to eke out a minor reward. That is hardcore. Most games today, the reward vs. time/ skill ratio is definitely skewed in favor of reward.

Reminds me of Deadly Towers from the NES days. No continues, one life and about 100+ hours of gameplay. NOT for everyone. That is hardcore. FPS and third-person shooters have saturated the market because THERE IS A DEMAND FOR THEM. Because they are mainstream.

As usual, you are missing the mark and defending everything Nintendo. It is possible that other people don't share your perception, that they want a challenge and an appeal that is not universal (ala Mario, and to a certain extent Halo, Gears and Killzone). I think that's what the author is getting at, but he does come across as a bit abrasive with his message.

Personally, I enjoy my Wii, for what it is. But it will never consistently provide me with immersive, cinematic, challenging experiences. That's not what it's made for - specwise and thematically. It is made to have a massive appeal across a variety of demographics, and when you are catering something to everyone, you are definitely excluding people on the far ends of the spectrum. That's how you target the middle-market.

And yes, I'm sure you could rant off a few titles here and there that could be considered "hardcore". But for every one of those, there are 10 Cooking Mamas or EA Sports Interactive/ Barbie Dress Up/ Babiez Party Vol # 3. These hardcore gems are the exception, not the rule. I'll still be picking up Muramasa and a few other titles for the Wii this year, but most of my gaming time will be spent on the HD systems. (And yes, graphics DO matter. Video games are by definition a visual medium. Graphics aren't everything, but they are certainly part of the package. And while the Wii has some incredibly artistic games, 480p isn't visually as interesting or captivating as a well crafted HD game.)

EDIT: @ Sidar. Are you dense? The title of the article is: "Is Nintendo killing core gaming?" There's a big N logo right beside the article. This is clearly ABOUT Nintendo. Did you even read the article? And your examples are still erroneous btw. Those are mainstream games.

Your entire statement on "core" and "mainstream" stems from the article, which is about the author's perceived negative effect that Nintendo has had on hardcore gaming. Again, did you read it? You seem confused. Really man, you post on like every Wii article, almost always with a defensive slant. Is there ANYTHING that the big N can do wrong in your book? Quite possibly I've missed it, but it would be nice to hear something more arbitrary from you once in a while. Anyway, it's a lovely day and I'm gonna get outside.

Peace.

[ChickeyCantor]

They were simple examples.

" As usual, you are missing the mark and defending everything Nintendo"

O this isn't about Nintendo, this is about the whole concept of HARDCORE.

As usual you take my stuff out of context, congrats.

Should you be reminded that i own a Ps3 also? Just to expand my gaming experience. So if this is really about Defending Nintendo then i have no idea why i own a Ps3 in the first place.

Edit:
Sure the article is about Nintendo, Doesn't mean i can't take on a different matter what is actually related to this whole "CORE" nonsense.

" Those are mainstream games."
Only proving my point more.

" O this isn't about Nintendo"
AS IN MY COMMENT, are you dense mister chris? Were you not replying to MY comment? Thought so.
>" As usual you take my stuff out of context, congrats. "
Wasn't it obvious?

edit edit:
" you post on like every Wii article, almost always with a defensive slant"
Interpretation is key.

" Is there ANYTHING that the big N can do wrong in your book?"
Many, MANY things. And i have expressed them before.
But why repeat every negative thing if 90% of N4G, and i know you are one of them are doing it on daily bases?

And yes i did read the article, but it was another case of "Cry-moar" and "Doomsday" is coming. HENCE why i said something about the whole hardcore BS.

[N4g_null]

The author fails to see that even the developers have become more casual. Gamers have become more casual.

Developer are more casual because they have to answer to even bigger publisher now. Gone are the days you could just work on a game and when it was ready then it was time to release it. Now hype is expected for every title. Developer don't even have to work as hard for this hype any more. Publisher know that SONY and MS have turned the industry into more of a movie state that one where people are addicted to game play.

90% of the gamers here are addicted to hype of any kind. Game play is an after though which has withered down to trophies. I blame nintendo for this also because the old mario where not about finding stars they where about not surviving the onslaught of these stages nintendo and co made. The secrets where cool once you had mastered the game but here is the trick, you still wanted to play the game and to play it meant you had to have practice because you would get rusty.

It's possible that game development got too complicated even for nintendo during the N64, and it possible they and many others are just waking up to a totally different gaming landscape because of that. I'm really missing the magical feel that game had and the feeling that even some new games have, but they are so few.

The movie gaming fad is running thin right now. The industry is not willing to invest in real writers and seriously I don't think we could afford them.

Gaming on the consoles have just become so convoluted and contrived these days and the few from the old days where not really as hardcore as they say they where. Gaming is a little different than other forms of collecting you actually have to be good at it to get what the hardcore got out of it back in the day.

Now a developer can just put some shaders in a game and some normal maps and every one cheers even though it was the same tired game they we got bored of last gen.

I think in 2010 we will see SONY as part of the solution though. It even took nintendo to fall as low as the GC for them to wake up again.

Oh yeah the main point of this rants is this is not nintendo's fault. This is simply the developer culture that SONY has left the industry in. All of this shovel ware was on the PS1 and 2 and in most cases it even looked worst and play even worst. The fact that some of it even sells just proves how successful the Wii mote is. The problem is 3rd parties believed the internet more than looking at the market.

Sure you can make the hardcore happy, I mean nintendo knows a zelda or mario will do that and the HD guys know you guys love sand boxes and normal maps etc. The problem is new comers may not, and if they do try these new set of games out then they are no longer getting hooked and becoming skilled players.

Many of us started gaming based on skill building game play, hell most people get addicted to games because of that very function. Nothing is more annoying to try and make it thur a boring easy game. I think the industry needs to pull back on the epic movie games and make more epic arcade skill based games.

This gen is not ready for the art that it's true talent can produce tech wise... maybe next gen. Oh yeah Zbrush 4 comes out in august get on the beta tester's list before it too late! I know you guys love mud box too!

Seriously there is a leader ship problem with in the industry and currently it just going to be slower for people to make the move to the Wii because of debts piling up for the HD games that went over budget. On the HD system a lot of people believed you could keep on making sub par games as long as the graphics where good and now a few of them are a shadow of what they use to be.

On the Wii there is no way in hell you can get by with this unless your art truly is worth the price of admission.

[Argento-Nox]

@scissor runner

I agree that there's a lot of shovelware on the PS1 and PS2, but there was also more core games to balance it out. Both PS1 and PS2 had something for everyone, from singstar to 2D fighters, RPG's etc.

The Wii is seriously lacking in several departments while having a high proportion of shovelware. I check games at EB games practically every week and I never fail to see a wall of casual games I don't want to play on the Wii.

Most of the PS2 shovelware came out near the later quarter of it's life period, but the Wii has had it since day 1. Let's not forget it's greatest contribution to get to the casual this gen; the wiimote and nunchuk. My nieces were never into gaming, but they bought into the wii for it's games and it's casual control functionality (not a bad thing since I play Wii with them from time to time).

If your going to shift the blame elsewhere, you should be fair to say that Nintendo has not done nearly enough to support the core audience, while it's controller along with the games are a reason it's reached the casual gamer. Are you forgetting they announced Animal Crossing last year as their core game?

The light isn't completely out for the core gamers on the Wii; since I know Sin and punishment 2, Arc rise fantasia, fragile, Monster Hunter 3 etc. are coming. If, however, Nintendo announces another casual game to the core this year like the last E3, they deserve all the animosity that the core can muster for their stupidity.

[qface64]

nope not at all i honestly don't know why people keep saying that?
i mean its not like nintendo is forcing you to only buy some of the more family oriented games on their systems
hardcore games are still coming out ON ALL SYSTEMS
no one is killing anything the so called core will always be there its not going anywhere

[TheColbertinator]

Another one? The good scores of Punch Out and The Conduit must be getting the haters in a frenzy lol

Just ignore this site and report it as lame

[IzKyD1331]

Did you not read the article? The writer mentions that every now and then, a title will come out for core gamers, but a VAST majority of Wii games are shovelware (Nintendo can only release so many games)
EA, Activision and Ubisoft have all realized that with the Wii, quality doesn't really matter. Ubisoft is the biggest offender IMO, lets see some of there Wii titles:

Gold's Gym Cardio Workout
Vacation Sports
Six Flags Fun Park
Imagine Fashion Party, Imagine Party Babyz
Petz Sports, Petz Crazy Monkeyz, Petz Rescue: Wildlife Vet
Circus Games

I can keep going on and on but i'm getting tired of typing. You get my point though. Companies will release any game with the word "Party" in it and the little kids and parents will buy them

[N4g_null]

You know why those games are not on the HD systems because the development would cost too much. I mean really just look back at the PS2 and you will see way more trash, maybe less successful trash but it has always been here. LOL Ahhh man remember acclaim LOL! All of the smaller devs... boy guess where most of these guys got there start, the PS2 and 1.

Also name a few HD console games that where big enough to help EA float or fix the balance sheets for such a big company? Also why do you even pay attention to these games?

What is funny is after all of those baby games and what ever else they sold they finally had the money to motivate their artist to create red steel 2 and you have to say they had to do some thing to pay the bills because their HD games where not getting the job done.

Companies always do this. As much as I wish the hardcore could support the industry along I know they simply can not.

another thing is not many of these party games make it in the top ten or 20 at all. So why complain about them? If they where so successful then why make red steel 2?

[Spike47]

Just a question, honestly, just trying to catch your drift. I've played the Wii several times, I played DBZ on it, which wasn't that great, I played Wiifit, which was fun at first but then jus plain boring, and then Mario Kart, which was actually a great game.

[ChickeyCantor]

`" do you perfer playing the wii over other consoles? "
No, neither the other way around.

[ChickeyCantor]

haha, the disagree..really ? XD

[Forrest Gump]

I don't think "Killing" is the right word,more like "ignoring" core gaming this gen.

[D4RkNIKON]

If any thing it is bringing a wider audience into gaming. Hopefully the Wii will be a gateway drug that gets people interested in gaming in general who otherwise wouldn't be. Who knows, I don't think it is hurting the industry. But it does make devs lazy, easy money is pretty tempting.

[N4g_null]

No one is getting rich off party games and if they are the trend will fall flat. People want games with real challenge and game play and those games keep selling on the Wii. Few games have been able to beat the casual experience of the Wii "title" games consumer know this now.

If you guys would just look at the sales you would see these games may have sold but they soon fell off because they may have sucked.

[blackskimmer]

1)Publishers and Developers are a finite resource. If they are making brat(z) or brain age they are not making MGS5.

2)Money is a finite resource. So is tolerance for risk. Why make a AAA PS3/360 title and sink 15-20 million into it over 3-4 years when you can bang out 10 shovel wear titles over that period with little to no dev cost and a small to medium risk?

3)Nintendo has shown that rehashing the same title's over and over and over again sells to their audience. There is NO innovation nor desire to innovate on the software front. Does the world really need a another Mario or Zelda game? Would you honestly buy Halo 34? Or what about Grand Turismo # 40? No, I wouldnt yet Nintendo does this.

4)Nintendo isnt allowing gaming to mature as a medium. Its keeping it suppressed in the "toy" section. There is no room for Trico or Uncharted or MGS titles on the Wii. To Nintendo games dont need stories, they dont need acting they dont need graphics they dont need innovation or visionary direction. They need to be simple. To Nintendo the world of video games revolves around the 30min sitcom. Watch and forget. While SONY strives for the experience of a lasting impression such of Saving Private Ryan. One is trying to grow the medium the other trying to smother it.

Its a not a question IF Nintendo is doing this, its a question of CAN the hardcore market survive?

[Seferoth75]

Yeah I know the 8th Mario Platformer in 25 years is just too much but the 8 MGS in is ok to look forward to even though its the same game every time with no innovation( If Mario and Zelda are still the same to you than MGS must be as well).

I bet you are also looking forward to the 20th Final Fantasy game and if you count all the remakes its actually Final Fantasy 50, but its ok for Sony and other companies to do it right? We can get Madden, Tiger woods, Fifa, Rock Band, Guitar Hero, and so many others yearly but one Mario Kart a generation is just completely wrong?

I also find it amusing that you try to make Sony out to be some savior of the gaming market by taking last gen games and giving them a new coat of paint. Obviously their extremely poor software sales kinda prove you wrong, or at least that the nonfollowers have high expectations than you do. Taking God of War, Putting in a female main character and calling it Heavenly sword is not innovative.You either blind or just know very little about gaming or Sony. I've yet to see them do anything that hadnt already been done before in gaming.

Nintendo games are 30min sit coms? Is that why SMG is 3 times longer than most PS3 games? Is Nintendos lack of innovation the reason SMG is the highest rated game this gen? Rating higher than anything offered by Sony.

Your entire rant lacks any knowledge of gaming. You wasted all that time on a pointless rant that isnt based off facts. The only thing you have proven is Sony fans will use any excuse, even if it isnt valid to hate on Nintendo.

[N4g_null]

Nintendo has had the most horrific games possible on it's system LOL and more adults have bought this system. Only teens and tech-addicts that are addicted to hype only praise the HD console and shun every thing else.

Unlike most of you I would love to see a SONY- Wii like system are at least for them to make their platform affordable to all. There are a lot of poor elitist out there and PC gaming is out of their reach.

Only kids would believe the Wii is only for women and kids. If you are not a kid then a comment like that shows your maturity level. You can't hide the fact that any console is just a toy even if it can do other things, people don't play with VCR or microwaves LOL.

Also if you have a problem with toys then you certainly are not as hardcore as you think you are because that is part of gaming culture also. Go to any studio and if you don't see toys on their desk then you mostly like can not name a game they have made also.

[ChickeyCantor]

LOL only Nintendo keeps holding on their own IPs?
Sure your MGS only had 2 games right... LOl

"Nintendo isnt allowing gaming to mature as a medium. Its keeping it suppressed in the "toy" section. "

Believe it or not, it always will be.

[Silent]

Nintendo Wii was designed for kids and females. Thats there main target. NO Teenage/Adult MALE would buy a Wii, if so then he got issues.

[D4RkNIKON]

this hardcore audience that they speak of? A single guy who's idea of casual gaming is to even own a Wii. lol you are a tool.

[ChickeyCantor]

"Thats there main target. NO Teenage/Adult MALE would buy a Wii, if so then he got issues.
"

This mentality...HAHAHAH

[SinnedNogara]

Why did Call of Duty: WaW sell 1.09 million then??

[kesvalk]

cuz females are KILLING MACHINES!!!

-_-

[ReBurn]

Well, the term "hardcore" is a misnomer that people use to try to make themselves feel as though they are elite. "If you like Nintendo then you aren't hardcore." That's a bunch of BS. People like what they like and that's it.

And Nintendo isn't killing core gaming. If there wasn't a market for what Nintendo was selling then nobody would be buying it. The fact is that the definition of core gaming is changing. People want simplicity and fun more than they want cutting edge graphics and online bloodshed. That's the reality we live in today, and no amount of crying is going to change that.

[bigjclassic]

because of the specific games that are unique to the Wii. To me the majority of the HD era games revolve around TPS/FPS games and I feel like that is really shallow and devs are riding that fad.

Twilight Princess, SMG, SSBB, DBZBT3, TvC, NMH, MadWorld, Tales of Symphonia, GGXXAC, Mario Kart, Punch-Out, Conduit, HoTd: Overkill, Metroid Prime 3, Nights, Klonoa, Castlevania Judgment, SPM, etc etc.

I could go on, those are reasons to pick up and play a Wii. The HD consoles have great games too, but besides MGS4, KZ2, Halo3 and a couple of others the majority of the HD era games suck too. (Haze, PDZ, Truok, Stranglehold etc.)

And to be honest so far this gen only a couple of games are must plays like, MGS4, SMG, KZ2, LoZ:TP, SSBB

But there are some good HD games coming: UC2, GoW3, ME2, FFXIII and GT5

[N4g_null]

Lost planet 2 is going to be good also. Yet I hope it comes to the PC so I get to play it with better specs.

Hd console gaming is going to be fine. It is a little faddish but hey what isn't. The main problem is they no one seems to be truly enjoying it. You hear stuff like OH man I love my "HD console" when you should be saying Oh man I love playing X game. I've actually beat a lot of HD games and it's great for seeing what the competition is doing but the biggest thing you can do is make your competitor fans of your work. I feel the industry has lost this and some where we all set down and said I need to get paid LOL. We are getting older these days.

I think the money grab is ending now and this E3 should be good.

[Brasi82]

I own a PS3 and a Wii. (I use to own a 360 as well but the RRoD nixed that). Anyway I find that I play my Wii more than the PS3. The Wii's games seem more directed to FUN, and not to ultimate annihilation of some n00b in Paris. Although I do enjoy playing CoD, KZ2, and others online. The point is what exactly is a "core" gamer? I've been playing games since I was young and grew up in the Nintendo generation. Do I support Nintendo more than the other consoles? Yes, but that's because they have yet to disappoint me. But I also love to play other consoles as well. Fable 2 is probably one of my favorite games along with Gears of War, Killzone 2, Little Big Planet, MGS4, Assassins Creed. But along those lines are also Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Smash Brothers, Madworld, Punch Out!!, ect. So am I a core gamer or a casual gamer? Well as I grew older i wasn't able to play games all the time. 2-3 hours a day is long for me unless its the weekend. But am I a casual gamer? No, I consider myself a "core" gamer because I can go all day playing games, I take days off of work to pickup and play new releases on the day they come out. So what someone really needs to do is to find an exact definition of "casual gamer" and "core gamer"

And to everyone saying "There are too many Mario's and Zelda's ect." If you think about it every FPS game right now is based on the same platform that Duke Nukem or DOOM set up. Ever sandbox game is based on what Driver 2 did. So the simple question is... why fix what is not broken?

Edit: Thanks for the good replies, I'm not really sure how "bubble's" work but apparently they are good. I've used the site for quiet awhile now but have finally decided to share my opinion's.

[SpoonyRedMage]

That's pretty what I'm like now, I don't have as much time as I used to for gaming but I still enjoy gaming for a day when I get the chance and Nintendo has never let me down. I do prefer the DS to the Wii though.

bubbles for a good, well thought out comment.

[N4g_null]

Great comment seriously. It's nice to see fans of gaming rather than systems and companies.

Man I'm glad the Wii fit owners don't come online LOL that would be pretty ugly.

[SinnedNogara]

Nice to see a fan of GAMING and having fun instead of HD graphics.

Have a bubble.

EDIT: Bubbles are the amount of comments you can post on a article. Sometimes it gets unfair though, when 360 and PS3 fanboys take you bubbles because of your beliefs. I defended the Wii in one article against Gaidrius and lost one bubble. I need to know how sidar has 7 and I have 4. :)

[gumgum99]

Take a bubble from me as well.

I'm not quite sure of the definition of these terms, myself. Back in the post 3D era, and the generation before that, I was pretty much "hardcore" in the sense of the term. These days my education and career is now playing "roommate" with my gaming hobbies. My gaming self constantly shifts back and forth between casual and not as a result. As many probably know, I too own a PS3 along with my Wii to expand my gaming portfolio this gen, as well as, for variety reasons.

Its a question that profounds us all. We could sure use more users like you, Brasi82.

[Spike47]

Does it ever occur to you that with a Wii you miss out on huge multiplatform releases. You won't get the following games on the Wii.

Bioshock 2
Final Fantasy 13
Modern Warfare 2
Battlefield Bad Company 2
Borderlands
Prototype
In addition to the exclusives of your HD console of choice. With the Xbox360- Mass Effect 2, Alan Wake, etc. With the PS3- GOW3, Heavy Rain.

[SinnedNogara]

We might get Modern Warfare 2 and Prototype. And we will still have our share of good games coming out like:

The Conduit-8.0: A good score and a good game.

Overlord II
High Voltage's project
Red Steel 2
Dead Space Extraction
Nintendo projects
Project Sora
No More Heroes 2
Tales of Graces
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Beareres

EDIT: Dragon Quest X

EDIT: Remember that games like Super Mario Galaxy and The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess are some of the HIGHEST rated games of all time.

[SpoonyRedMage]

Don't forget that the Wii is also getting DQX as an exclusive.

It's best to have two of the consoles though but because the PS3 and 360 share the majority of their libraries it's better to have a PS3 and Wii or a 360 and a Wii instead of a PS3 and a 360.

[BrotherNick]

I think for most of us gamers on this site, we aren't sticking to one console like fanboys. Sidar has a PS3, me and Scissor Runner are PC gamers, I bet most of us nintendo fans have more consoles than all of you really. :\

[bigjclassic]

they are mostly mindless shooting games.

[Hisiru]

Nintendo had an idea of connect all the kind of gamers, but unfortunately, the other companies jumped so high that the power of the Wii was not enough. The Wii was a response to the PS2 and Xbox, not a response for the x360 or the ps3, because Nintendo don't has a crystal ball to know what the other companies will do and if they will put HD in the consoles or not. With the power of the other consoles, a lot of exclusive appeared, and it is not Nintendo's fault, because the developers CAN do a game for the Wii with low graphics, but since the begin, a lot of exclusive games appeared, and a lot of consumers bought the HD consoles.

Observation: Tatsunoko vs Capcom (for the Wii) is more fun than SFIV (I have a 360). SFIV is just a known name.

This entire article is a entire BS waiting for Sony and Microsoft fanboys to laugh of the Nintendo. When we will grow up and learn that videogame is not a war?

[ballsofsteel]

here what i don't get. i completely get expanding the industry and making casual a bigger part of the gaming audience but Nintendo decided the the wii is going to be a full blown casual console. what i think people don't see is that the gaming industry, as a whole, relies on the core and hardcore gamers not casuals. how many games do you think a casual buy every year? 2-3 at best? and you know for a fact that those games will be something like rock band/guitar hero, big shooter like COD4, and more child appealing games like a mario or a sports game like madden. now think of how many games you as a hardcore or core gamer has bought? personally i've gotten KZ2, SF4, RE5 and soon will get infamous and i'm still going to get MW2, uncharted 2, Fat princess, MAG, and GOW in 09. think of games like infamous, fable 2, God of war, uncharted, MGS4 and countless other game that have little casual appeal. games like these depend on core and hardcore gamers not casuals. while casual gamer greatly outnumber core/hardcore gamers core games vastly outnumber casual games.

what the PS2 did was a perfect way to expand the gaming market without shunning the developers of core/hardcore games(which also outnumber casual game devs). The sony continually brought great hardcore games like MGS, DMC, Final fantasy, and countless other while getting big casuals games like guitar hero, GTA, singstar and others. and best of all for sony they didn't even need to really try get many casual games. they created a strong base of core and hardcore gamers and then casuals games from 3rd party devs followed. nintendo is doing the exact opposite created a base of causal gamers and hoping for 3rd party dev to create hardcore games.that simply won't work as again the industry and a whole is comprised of hardcore/core game developers not casual game developers. again casuals don't buy many games so why create so many casual titles. the wii by extension of nintendo pushing wii to be more casual and simply become oversaturated with casual games. go look at a walmart or best buy at the video game section and you'll find that casualware greatly outnumbers core/hardcore games

now to the point of nintendo killing gaming. figurtivily if sony and MS decide to go a way more causal approach to gaming an build their next console for casuals and focus on casual games then yes nintendo may has killed core gaming as they showed if you can major casual appeal like the wii you can get a carp load of money. however i personally don't see this happening and even if it did at least we'll always have PC gaming

[Lumbo]

what is better? 40 million people buying 2-3 games, or 100000 people buying 20 games?

Nintendo seems to know the answer ...

[gumgum99]

Nintendo just needs a better balance of the demographics, thats all.

They seemed to have gotten it right with the DS, but somehow went to left field with the Wii. As you pointed out, the Playstation 2 has proven that this sort of balance can be achieved on consoles the same way the Gameboy has done for years. There's certainly hope for the Wii's game catalog with all this considered.

Regarding the Wii's target audience, the console was never meant to be a "full blown casual console." This can be easy to forget because of the third party's shovelware and greater appeal to some of Nintendo's newest installments, but Iwata has always stated that Nintendo's intent was to attract "everyone." Whether or not Nintendo has achieved this is subjective, but what I can say is that Nintendo is not interested "only" in one demographic or another, nor do they intend to replace the traditional gamer.

If they did, then Virtual Console would not exist(after all, most casuals don't even know who mario or zelda are).

[ballsofsteel]

@lumbo are you speaking for nintendo by itself or the gaming industry? i can tell for sure the indsutry that mianly composes of devlopers that produce core games would much rather stick with that 100000

@gum
my point isn't that the wii was built for casues on a technical front but more in a software front and how Nintendo is trying to make people perceive it. looks at commercial and you see sony trying advertise teh PS3 as a multimedia box that can do everything and MS trying to make 360 where fun games with better online and better socializing while nintendo always advertises the wii as a casual console (see E308). also you continually see hardcore games sell less than casual titles on the wii and there is doubt that most of the wii's base is causal and/or nintendo fans that mainly buy nintendo's core games like SSBB or zelda. as i said most of the gaming industry is dependent on hardcore gamers not casuals so why would a 3rd party developer push out hardcore games on the wii? As you said nintendo needs balance like the PS2 however indications are that that won't happen. they choose to market the wii as a casual console first so they need to pull in some quality hardcore 3rd party games to add some core gamers to their base however after this long nintendo has shown they simply don't want to do that they would rather just earn money on every wii sold and they themselves make their own casual titles and few hardcore titles that will sell to their demographic.

also saying you want to make a console that appeal to everyone not just casuals is very different from actually doing it and nintendo hasn't done it. last year reggie was asked want games could core gamers look forward to during the holidays of 08 and his response was animal crossing. if nintendo wanted to appeal to hardcore gamers more than you would have shelled out to make a new zelda game or hopefully get a well known 3rd party dev to make a wii game. but they choose not to and rather make games like wii music

[ReBurn]

I think that you're not realizing something important. The demographics of gaming aren't changing. Developers would not rather rely on selling 100,000 copies of a game to "core" gamers at $60 as opposed to 500,000 - 1,000,000 copies at $40. Developers are embracing the Wii like crazy.

Why do you think that the 360 and PS3 are eating the Wii's dust? Why do you think that so few AAA HD console exclusives are being made by third party developers? Why do you think Capcom ported Dead Rising to Wii? Why do you think EA is producing all of these casual sports games? Why do you think that everyone at Nintendo sleeps on piles of cash at night?

The truth is that the definition of what a core gamer is has changed. The sooner you embrace that fact the happier you're going to be.

[Lumbo]

What a bunch of nonsense. Nintendo is not "killing" the "core" gaming, they simply decided that "core" is not where their market is. And judging by the sales data their decision was spot on. The primary market share lies with casual games, mini-game collections and ultra short games that can be played in a matter of minutes. Nintendo is covering that market perfectly.

Sure the Wii has the highest percentage of crap games released, and by a wide margin, too. But that is only natural as Wii fans kept loudly informing the whole developer world that excellence is not needed in games, and horrid to mediocre graphics will do for them. They got what they asked for. The majority of the quick buck devs jumped right in and delivered a steady stream of garbage for the Wii fans to buy at once, and they did. Ninjabreadmen and all its ugly clones say hi.

The few diamonds in the mud are the games produced by Nintendo's own studios(except that atrocious WarioWares smooth moves) Zelda delivered, SMW delivered, SSBB somewhat delivered, if only the online would work properly, Wii Music ... erm , lets forget that one, OK? You can't win every time.

It is not Nintendo's fault that 3rd party devs decided that the fastest way to heaps of gold (erm cash) is to take an old PS2 game and port it to the Wii with tacked on waggle.

The only one to blame is yourself, you got what you asked for with your wallets. Stop buying crap garbage ports for the Wii and the devs will deliver better games.

/endrant

[Gr81]

That is all.

[Shadowstar]

"Remember when being a gamer meant something?"

Why, no, author. I have been gaming for 20 years-- hoshit I'm old!-- and I cannot remember being a gamer ever having "meant something" beyond the fact that I saved up money for video games instead of music and movies and comics and books. (Well, okay, I probably would have saved up for books too except that those were "free" because my parents felt they were worthwhile compared to shooting line-drawn tanks and jumping on turtles.)

Opening up the gaming world to more people benefits us all in the long run. Boo hoo, Nintendo's doing well while not targeting hardcore gamers? Wah, those icky girls and old people are getting into some games? Too bad, so sad. I wish some of these people would just shut up.

[Shnazzyone]

If anyone is killing the "core games" that he is speaking of it is business and greedy publishers. You act like sony has never condoned anything gimmicky ever. (*cough* eye toy *cough*). Why is it these game "journalists" act like the fact that gaming becoming an widely accepted form of media in the world is a bad thing. If your grandma or your girlfriend liked V for Vendetta then does that make action movies lame? no. Then why are games so different... why can't we just accept the fact that people other then the stereotypical gamer might enjoy games

Also... Why do they act like nintendo is to blame for all of this and like crap games and games for families never existed before the wii? This crap has been around for years. I mean c'mon it's not like atari 2600 and the NES didn't have it's share of crap titles as well.

[sunday_times]

Core gaming dying because of Nintendo?

Realistically the company has been making some of the best videogames way before this silly label of "Hardcore Gamer" was invented.

C'mon the reason why working adult gamers are buying the Wii with their salaries is because they have lived long enough to see the 8 bit to 128 bit system wars. Most teenagers who avoid the Wii like the plague are those who have been sucked into the whole "Wii is for children and old ppl" PR nonsense.

The truth is that older videogamers (console gamers not PC gamers) know tht simply pushing the graphics of a console doesn't make it the best system on the market. the original Playstation (32 bit) console beat the Nintendo 64, Gameboy crushed the Gear Gear and most recently in this gen the DS is still winning with a big lead over the PSP.

FYI The Uncanny Valley theory still holds for the PS3 & 360. If you look at the latest TRICO leaked video you can tell that the developers were aiming for a less photo realistic approach for its main character and spending more effort in developing a unique art style. Thats because they understand the limitations of videogame graphics of today. Those are the hallmarks of a good developer.

Graphics have yet to break the Uncanny Valley and Nintendo developers have known this fact and built a less graphically powerful system but still every bit as competent. Their titles have continued to focus on its CORE elements which are good gameplay accompanied by solid art direction and music.

This way even 10 years down the road their games would still not look dated and still play great.

NSMB, Punch Out!!, Zelda:TP, SMG and the Prime Trilogy are all Nintendo games that will live beyond their time.

[kesvalk]

i know what you mean, it's like MGS for PS1, the graphics are poor, but the story, gameplay and art style just overcome it and make the game enjoyable until today...

[Mahr]

"I know this may seem a little bit overzealous, and maybe the title is a little misleading, but am I the only one who is tired of watching Nintendo's Wii and DS whore out games that are crap at best?"

Er, I'm not entirely certain what one accomplishes by making the phrase 'crap at best' into a hyperlink that links to an article filled with information that's out-dated at best and falsified at worst, other than diminishing one's own credibility in his first sentence, but alright.

"Am I the only one tired of having some of the best franchises being dummy downed to the masses?"

Probably not, although I doubt you're the only one who doesn't understand the concept of 'nostalgia' very well either.

"When you create a gaming console that is fun, easy to play and directed at everyone and not just the gaming crowd, they have to share some of the blame don't they?"

When *I* create a gaming console that is fun and full of wide-appeal, *Nintendo* has to share some of the blame? Er... No.

Terrible grammar of that line aside, to accept your premises of Nintendo sharing blame, one would have to think that there is something wrong with the current state of whatever you're talking about.

"Remember when being a gamer meant something?"

Oh, boy, it's been a while since I've read one of these. Are you going to blame capitalism like we used to in the old days?

Remember when rock used to mean something? It all used to be about the music, man. Then you sold out to The Man, man. Whatever happened to the revolution and flower power, dude?

"If your grandma and your 2 year old niece are playing games too, doesn't the appeal of being called a gamer wear off?"

Um, no. By definition, becoming more popular means that appeal is increasing.

"Don't get me wrong, the Wii has some gems"

Ah, 'some'. I love weasel words. They have all the benefits of being technically correct with all the same ability to mislead as a direct lie. If you were to actually give a precise number, it would make this statement less meaningless, but god forbid, you'd actually have to find/provide supportable facts for your argument or something.

"but any real "gamer" has more then just a Wii"

Okay, so, if we add in 'real', that's two weasel words so far, and the quotation marks here imply that you have some sort of alternate definition to the word than simply 'one who plays games', but since you're not actually providing said definition, it doesn't actually mean anything in particular.

"Zelda was a great game, and there a couple"

'There a couple'? Do you know what a fragment sentence is? Have you ever heard of the concept of an editor?

"how much fun can you actually have with those."

You know, there are these things called question marks...

"Another beef I have is that they LOVE re-releasing games that were out for previous systems with no real sort of enhancements to the game itself."

Um, and? There are about 50 million Wii Owners. The first two Metroid Prime games were two of the top two games ever made and were on the Gamecube, which sold a grand total of 21 or 22 million. Even if we assume that every single Gamecube owner bought a Wii, that's still 28-29 million people who never got a chance to play them. I like how you have a 'beef' with the very idea of a company giving consideration to over half its customer base.

Oh no! They're re-releasing games that tons of people haven't played before (mostly on account of no one buying their previous system)! Those people get to experience a pair of brilliantly designed games! The horror!

If the notion of other people being happy somehow angers you, I really can't sympathize.

Also, your use once more of 'real' constitutes a third weasel word. I somehow doubt it will be your last.

"Find me one great FPS game that console has."

Ah, another two weasel words here. The first being that 'great' is a subjective term. For instance, a lot of people regard the God of War games as a great series -- an opinion which I do not share, as (at the risk of losing my bubbles to the fans on this site) I think those games are profoundly boring, to be honest.

In discursive terms, that's a loaded question, as it implies that there's some sort of objective standard of greatness, which you should be justifying with some kind of page-long rant in and of itself.

In the second place, I imagine I could name some games that the response would be "those aren't FPSes!" despite them occuring in the first-person perspective and involving copious amounts of shooting in their gameplay. So that brings your weasel word count to five.

"I don't understand why people don't see that it is a gimmick"

If you're going to say things like this, you have to support them with what some people like to call evidence.

"Is it a coincidence that the top rated games of this generation don't use full motion control?"

Unfortunately, I don't think I can count a terribly articulated argument as a weasel word in and of itself. Moreover, I'm not particularly certain what you mean by 'full motion control'.

Regardless, I would point out that World of Goo, which I imagine would meet whatever silly definition of 'full motion control' you have, is currently higher rated than Super Smash Brothers Brawl.

"The biggest kick in the groin, in my opinion, is when they release a game that doesn't even take advantage of the controls"

Motion controls aren't particularly precise. Some games require precision. Many games do not. Forcing motion controls on a game that necesitates precision is not very good design. You think it's a 'kick to the groin' that there aren't more terribly designed games on the Wii?

Is this Bizarro World?

"One of the Wii's top selling and highest rated games, Super Smash Brothers Brawl, doesn't even include motion controls."

As one of the aforementioned games that require precision, this is hardly surprising.

"So why buy this when you can get the last iteration for Nintendo Game Cube for cheaper?"

There exist people who are willing to pay more money for games just so that they can have new *costumes* in a given fighting game. You honestly think these people don't consider new characters reason enough to buy a new game?

Incidentally, since you're the one who seems to think that game ratings are the only way to ascertain some arbitrary standard of greatness, Brawl has a one-point higher Metacritic rating with nearly twice the sample size, which by your bizarre logic should mean it's the better game. You should be making some inane argument like 'Do you think that it's a coincidence that the game where you can optionally map smashing to waggle controls is higher rated than the game where you can't?'

"And why should gaming be hard work? "

You're the one arguing that gaming should be less-inclusive, more niche, and reward a select minority of the world population according to various arbitrary standards, so I don't see why you're not writing some sort of article about how all lazy people should be purged and how only the strong and dedicated should be focused upon. 'Only real 'gamers' are people who are willing to move when they game! Accepting the un-dedicated, slovenly masses would only make our hobby meaningless!'

"If someone has been gone all day at work or school, do you really want to come home and prance around like an idiot just to play a video game?"

Um, for millions of people, the answer to that question is a rather resounding 'Yes'.

"Do people not have patience anymore?"

Yes, only patient people should be catered to. The impatient should be removed from our ranks, lest they taint our superior genetic stock.

"Games can still be easy to pick up, but what I am looking for is some depth"

So you're looking for games that appeal to your tastes -- shocking.

"This game is also doing very well on the sales chart as well, because as time passes, fighting games are going to be looked at as a "niche" category. "

It's doing well because it's niche? It's niche because it has broad appeal to all kinds of people? I mean no offense by this, but -- are you high?

"Virtua Fighter 5 and Soul Calibur IV sales were both mediocre compared to it's last titles and are both very good games."

...What?

"What about other popular titles? Activision's Guitar Hero is the new aged Dance Dance Revolution, and somehow it's destroying the sales charts."

And? I don't see what that has to do with your main point.

"All you are doing is listening to music and hitting a button in sync with a screen (or whatever instrument you happen to be using)."

And all you do in Quick Time Events, which are getting fairly ubiquitous among games of *all* systems is hitting a button in sync with a screen as you watch a little movie. I don't see anyone talking about how Shenmue and God of War and the latest Resident Evil games have heralded the end of Gaming As We Know It(TM).

"I thought good games had stories, complex elements, art, dialog and a point."

Uh, I hate to break it to you, but the first recorded stories among human history were in musical forms, usually in poetry, and in fact predated our language. Symphonies, operas, concerts, they were designed to communicate stories and emotions without any other input. The works of Homer, Milton, William Shakespeare -- you've heard of him, I presume? -- were just as much about how the words on their pages sounded as they were about the situations in their stories.

I'm not really certain how we've gotten to the point where we no longer regard music as an art, but I suppose this is no worse a point than any of your others.

As for games themselves having a point, er, isn't the point usually to have fun? Some people have fun decapitating an evil army in Ninja Gaiden -- others have fun playing cheap plastic instruments and watching some an ugly polygon man rock out in front of a pixelated audience -- others have fun just playing life simulators. I don't see how one decides that one is acceptable fun and the others are not.

"You know, not an over glorified cell phone game."

What, you have something against mobile games, now, too?

"They should be something you have to work at with a sense of accomplishment once you finally get the hang of things."

You should work at things? I thought you said you don't want to have to do hard work in videogames!

Secondly, your claim about there being no work involved with the Guitar Hero games... no one's who's actually *seen* the Itchy and Scratchy movie would say that.

"Their are currently"

There.

"The biggest question I have to ask is what is the difference between them?"

The difference between the Guitar Hero games? Different modes, different functionality, and, oh yeah, different *songs*. Or are you seriously arguing that all songs and all music is essentially the same? What?

"The worst part about this motion sensory nonsense is that Sony and Microsoft are following suit."

This is a good thing: It is absolutely ridiculous that I have to explain this, but we live in a system called 'capitalism', and this thing called 'capitalism' functions due to a concept known as 'competition'. To elaborate: One person creates a product and it either makes money or it doesn't. If it makes money, someone else tries to create a *better* product that will make *more money*.

All that Microsoft or Sony getting into the motion control business means is that developers who utilize motion controls have to do better jobs with them to keep making money.

The fact that you can't see the difference between motion control in a game like Moto GP and a game like Flower is kind of hilarious in and of itself. I mean, do you not understand the concept of differentiation? All Super Smash games are the same, all Guitar Hero games are the same, all music is the same, all motion controls are the same, the Wii and the DS are interchangeable systems!

"SCEA hardware marketing boss John Koller even said "We're moving on now... to look at softer brands that maybe we had with PS2 franchises. There's certainly a line-up of very strong family-friendly titles that we're looking at for PS3 in our continuing effort to appeal to that casual consumer"

Again, how is this a bad thing? Nintendo makes less money off its family games, Sony makes more money off its own, and the two companies have to find ways to make their respective products better than the competition's, and therefore the general design of said games improves overall. The games become more inclusive and achieve broader appeal.

Oh wait, I forgot, you deal in these bizarre black and white absolutes -- all casual games are the same!

So let me point out this then: if Sony continues making the so-called 'hardcore' games as well as the so-called 'casual' games, then it retains an edge over Nintendo which you claim is only appealing the latter group. As a result, Nintendo has to step up its own 'hardcore' games. The market corrects itself.

Even by your own warped logic, that should be a good deal all around.

"Sony, what happened? You guys used to be THE system for the gamer crowd, keep working at it, don't sellout now."

Yes, Sony should just keep on hemmoraging money on an obsolete business model and leave Nintendo to its piles of cash, based on some notion of your being part of The Elect.

They should do this because, uh, it's all about the games, man! Don't give in to the oppressive capitalist machine that steals men's souls! Rage against the machine! Viva la revolution!

"I am tired of living in a world where the simplest games are absolutely murdering sales charts."

And I imagine that there were people who were tired of living in a world where the most complex games absolutely murdered in sales.

But I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you. A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.

<Cue Rage Against The Machine's 'Wake Up' and cut to credits>

"Wii Sports shouldn't be the best selling of all time, that's just not right"

Right, it's just not right that people can actually enjoy a game that you don't like.

"Us gamers can only keep looking for so long."

Oh, boy, Atlas is shrugging!!

[kesvalk]

man, i read it all X_X

but really, why waste all this time on this article like this?

if i wasn't on work, i would be playing my games -_-

[Mahr]

"man, i read it all X_X"

Ha ha, well, that's one more person who managed that than I expected to. My apologies.

"if i wasn't on work, i would be playing my games -_-"

Same here, usually. I work in IT, though, and so I occasionally have really long bouts of time with absolutely nothing to do except for flash games and posting.

[Argento-Nox]

Nintendo isn't killing core gaming, they're just expanding it to the casual gamer. As long as Nintendo has competition from Sony and MS, core gaming has nothing to worry about.

Not that I don't mind casual gaming with the nieces, but if core gaming ever took a backseat to casual gaming for Nintendo's competition, it'll be the day I truly give up gaming as a whole.