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PS3, the new Saturn

Lest we forget our history, GDmag coworker Jeff reminded Brandon that almost everything Kaz Hirai is saying about the PS3 was previously said about the Saturn. Take note of the quote below.

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"

Now read this statement from the Saturn whitepaper: "This growth won't be possible on competing systems that offer a simpler architecture. It may be easier in some ways for developers to create programs for the competition because there's less to learn and work with from a technology standpoint -- but that means that developers are much more likely to run up against the limits of the system in a short span of time. The simpler structure of competing architectures also increases the chance that games will be "ported" from other systems (other game systems or even personal computers), which results in games that are generic and not optimized for performance and special features.

In contrast, the sophistication of the Sega Saturn pays off for both developers and consumers alike over the long term. Developers will continue to discover new ways to wield their creative talents, and game players will have an ongoing supply of new, inventive, out-there, beyond-cool titles for their Sega Saturn systems. "

That kind of logic is destined for failure.

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GWAVE3308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

Or it could be the new PS2, since -- if memory serves -- the Emotion Engine wasn't the easiest thing to program for either and Sony was given a lot of grief for the first two years of programming.

On top of that, the Saturn was made by SEGA. Sorry SEGA fans, but SEGA sucked at marketing and driving a product. Sony doesn't. They've sold 10 million a year since launch even at the highest price point. The Saturn didn't even sell 10 million in its four-year lifespan.

Author fails.

aspergersyndrome3308d ago

The Wii is the new PS2; Get over it!

pwnsause3308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

^^^dumb?

gambare3308d ago

no according to this guys:

ericnellie3308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

You can't compare the PS3 against the Sega Saturn. This is flamebait and I'm not falling for it! The SONY Brand IMO is far stronger!

Mozilla893308d ago

that you didn't pick your name as a joke about aspergers syndrome. Anyways, I don't think there really is a PS2 this generation. Since it had sales like the Wii but had a great library of games that covered all genres thoroughly. I guess the Wii is closest sales wise but it doesn't have a good mix of genres.

kevoncox3308d ago

Actually the Ps3 is sitting at 17.7 million consoles sold...
That does not equal 10 million a year.

However, I get your point. The authors point was the desing philosphy is/was flawed. Developers rarely take the time to implement the power that 1 console weilds over the other. They ignored it on the XBOX even though it was easier to program for. Do you really think they will invest time learning how to do it on th PS3? That's the point of the article....
Why use a grenade luancher to kill ants when raid works so well?

Obama3308d ago

The wii is not the new ps2 since it doesn't have good games. The ps2 has the best games last generation, and this generation the ps3 has the best games in 08 and 09.

gaffyh3308d ago

@kevincox - I'm pretty sure it's 21.3 million.

crck3308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

1. I agree with you about the PS3. There is no way it should be lumped in with the Saturn. I think the Saturn sold around 5 million units total in its lifetime. But Sega's marketing didn't suck. Their management did. They diluted and pissed off their user base by making the Sega CD and then the 32x. Plus they were going up against a much bigger company that could under cut it on the cost of hardware (Sony).

1.1 Actually the Wii is the PS2. Just in white with flicky stick controls.

1.6 Its 21.3m as of December 2k8. Dunno where you got your number from.
http://www.scei.co.jp/corpo...

red5ive3308d ago

i agree with you. developers hadn't seen anything like the emotion engine before, but look what happened to the success of the ps2. ahh.. just give it some time. it's already happening before our eyes.

pswi603308d ago

the "logic" this article uses has already failed.

the ps3 is doing tremendously well for its price, against fierce competition, with US media outlets consistently bashing it.

also, the release of Killzone 2 this month, and also the rave reviews that this game is receiving around the globe, will go a long way in shutting up some, but not all detractors who hide behind the internet.

there will be those unfortunates who cannot, and will not, be honest with themselves. they will be the ones missing out on great games for an entire generation, riding the fail train of bias and hate directly into the ground.

sonarus3308d ago

Yeehah Lets ride PS3 is doomed articles all the way into next yr

SaiyanFury3308d ago

Yeah SEGA's position in the market with the Saturn back in the 90s was far worse than Sony today. They were hit hard after the Genesis add on craze and continued to limp on into the mid 90s. The Saturn was designed primarily as an advanced 2D console until SEGA learned that the original PlayStation was going to be completely 3D focused. That put a wrench in SEGA's plans and they made it so the system could process 3D graphics, but given the timeframe, not as well. Also SEGA didn't release the Saturn in the west at the most opportune time so the Saturn didn't see the greatest sales. Despite that, it was a great system and I own two of them, one of which has never been used. But comparing the PS3 to the Saturn just isn't accurate, either financially or historically. The PS3 might have as many sales as Microsoft's 360 *yet*, but it's growing, and growing well.

mabreu3308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

Source: http://www.ps3focus.com/arc...

Source: http://articles.latimes.com...

These two sources show that the PS2 was "difficult-to-program-for " but still manage to be successful in its generation. This applies to PS3 logic as well.

Timberland2K93308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

hello i didn't remember sega selling a predecessor with 150 million world wide.

You fuggin idiot fanboy analyst you couldn't find a great game that isn't over-rated if it smacked you upside your head

EDIT THE SITE HAS SPYWHERE AND MALIWERE

BulletToothtony3308d ago

until last month they were saying that the ps3 had only sold 13 million and had the 360 at 28 million.

btw don't click on that site. it has spyware and malware.. i only click on it from my mac not from my pc ;)

eagle213308d ago

MS = SEGA. Never won a generation. LOSERS.

21.4 MILLION SOLD.

thats_just_prime3308d ago

Actually the PS3 is a lot like the saturn both are hard to program for, both were overprice, both had a handful of great exclusives and both system were/are more pwerful then their competition. Also both sega and sony were goin up against companies with much deeper pockets.

Btw going by vgchartz (I know not the best) the ps3 has sold 19.9m and the 360 has sold 27.9m

iHEARTboobs3308d ago

Grenade launchers are more fun imo.

Lombax3308d ago

We play video games. Who wants a can of raid when we can use an RPG?

The Lazy One3308d ago

http://www.wired.com/scienc...

"Raid uses a mix of propylene, butanes, and butylenes as propellant. These are flammable and can cause breathing difficulties; you might want to stub out that Marlboro Light before spraying indoors."

Grenade launcher : approximately $600 (no grenades)
Can of Raid: $5/can (usually comes in packs for foggers)

119 cans of Raid + 1 book of matches > Grenade launcher tbh 8-)

cmrbe3308d ago

When will people realise that Sony != Sega?.

When will people realize that Sony has way more talent than Sega or MS or Nintendo?.

@Kevonox and to any other person out there comparing the PS3 to the Sega Saturn. The difference is Sony has more talent to take advantage of PS console hardware unlike Sega with the Saturn and dreamcast. Same case with the xbox. Only a handful of MS 1 st party was able to take advantage of the xbox hardware and show others what is posible but it wasn't enough. Why should devs invest time developing for PS3?. Isn't it obvious?. The PS3 will be supported longer meaning that dev's investment in PS3 development will pay off big time not just now but in the long run. Hint, EA would still bring out Madden 2011 on the PS2 if is still supported by then.

It is just amazing how stupid people are nowadays.

prowiew3308d ago

woah. I loved the saturn!. It has my fav game of all time. Panzer Dragoon Saga.

JasonPC360PS3Wii3308d ago

The Wii is the new PS2 because it's selling like the PS2, to bad the PS3 isn't :)

CrazzyMan3308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

when it will be selling at 299$/€. =))

About Wii, Wii is not new PS2, Wii is a Wii. It has GREAT sales, BUT it don`t have as MUCH GREAT games as PS2 had.

phosphor1123308d ago

That's what I thought about this article..

Danja3308d ago

if the PS3 had sold 5-6 million in it's almost 3 years on the market then we could have called it th enext saturn..

the PS3 now stands at 21.3 million sold in 2 years .

and the Wii is nothing more than a repackaged Gamecube painted in white with Motion controls with a minor hardware update...

it just having good sales....but doesn't have the greatgames PS2 had....

d_dogg20073308d ago

Danja don't forget the fact that the ps3 hasn't been a out a full 2 years yet in Europe. Its release was delayed in March. So technically it sold even more the 21.3 million in 2 years. I'm not dissing your comment just want to add to it. Always agree with your posts and Gwave also.

Another thing, we all know the ps3 outsold the xbox worldwide in 2007 and tied for 2008, so how exactly did xbox's lead increase from 5 million to 8 million if it has never sold 3 million more than ps3 in the last 2 years. Someone is seriously fudging the numbers.

Mark my words xbox is dead this time next year.

You guys have something to say, then talk don't hit the disagree button like cowards.

Microsoft Xbox 3603308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

Yeah everybody seems to forget the late release of the PS3 in Europe. Not to mention the PS3, which has already surpassed 360 in sales there.

The 360 selling about the same pace of another console that is twice the price is a disgrace.

The Lazy One3308d ago

I could blow up a building with Raid for the money you'd spend JUST on that gun.

not to say it's not sweet or effective. That said, this metaphor has been entirely overanalyzed.

TheBlackSmoke3308d ago

..that the PS3 is already way past the point of needing to be saved. The Ps3 has already far surpassed the saturn and dreamcast total lifetime sales and theres no sign of it stopping in the near future.

Just because PS3 is 3rd in sales this doesn't mean that it is on the edge of defeat. All 3 consoles have gotten their install base to a number at which they can easily all co-exist. Even if next year 360 has 37 million and PS3 30 million sold, the difference no longer becomes relevant as NO publisher is going to ignore the PS3s install base of 30 million. games journalists, if i can even call them that, need to focus on talking about games and leave the economics to the financial experts because most obviously have no f#@kin clue.

Rock Bottom3308d ago

The Wii is the new PS2, without the good games.

pain777pas3308d ago

Jabronis! Stop with this crap already go play games or write something we haven't heard before. Sony and Sega are Two different beasts. Sony has got games that are better than the competition. Saturn was owned graphically by the PS1 and N64. 2d is the only advantage the saturn had and graphically inferior to the PS1 look at any ports and you'll see that for any other games than 2d games and some needed cartriges aswell to run them. Sony is uber successful and few misteps. Sega had a bogus handheld, sega cd, 32X.....the list goes on and this idiot typing bought them all aswell. Go figure. Sony is class and quality. Sega is innovative but really bit more than they could chew.

Homicide3308d ago

The thing is PS2 was actually selling hardware & software. Can't really say the same thing about the PS3.

Mini Mario3308d ago

"Sorry SEGA fans, but SEGA sucked at marketing and driving a product"

I dunno the mega drive always seemed to compete with the super nes. (when sega was up there). They kinda went off track tho after the 32x and sega cd.....*shivers*

Mini Mario3308d ago

"The wii is not the new ps2 since it doesn't have good games. The ps2 has the best games last generation, and this generation the ps3 has the best games in 08 and 09"

Well that really does depend on each person's taste in games. Not everybody is into FPS's or RTS's

Mini Mario3308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

" WTF not this again
hello i didn't remember sega selling a predecessor with 150 million world wide. "

While that maybe true in theory, however i dont think the 80's and 90's had such a broad "audience" as it does today. Otherwise the NES would be the best selling machine of all time (with like a 90% market share...maybe more).

Mini Mario3308d ago

"The Dreamcast was hardly competition. Despite it's amazing games"

So true, the dreamcast had a modem, great graphics, great controller....really good games.......yet it failed...weird.

SaiyanFury3307d ago

@ people who disagree with me

I invite your opinions. The Saturn released at a time then SEGA was financially battered. How does the PS3 compare to the Saturn in your opinions? I invite all who disagreed with me to offer their opinions.

mint royale3307d ago

the only console that has a chance of emulating what the ps2 did is the wii. The wii is outselling the ps2 which is an achievement the ps3 and 360 have got nowhere near achieving. All the wii needs is more core games and they will come. EA have already confirmed that their future core titles will be hitting the wii and nintendo will soon be releasing core games to complement games such as the conduit and madworld. I think the wii will eventually turn out like the ps2, it already has the dominance of its sales figures.

EDIT: The article is pure flaimbate. The ps3 may not emulate the ps2 but it is certainly not a saturn. The ps3 is a ps3 and is doing fine.

acedoh3307d ago

the PS3 is still getting great third party support... The Saturn lost much of it's third party support. Developers are learning how to utilize the PS3 and it's quite rewarding for those who enjoy a few challenges. SONY also has a major fanbase that continues to support the Playstation platform. I don't see why so many are so compelled to see the PS3 fail... It's as if they believe the world would be better if we only have two consoles... Which if that were the case you could say goodbye to a lot of the quality we are now seeing. Also get ready to pay more with no competition...

+ Show (39) more repliesLast reply 3307d ago
Megaton3308d ago

I guess the PS3 is the new PS2 as well, if you use the same comparative logic. Never stops around here these day, huh?

aspergersyndrome3308d ago

The PS2 had no competition for it's first 19 months on the market.

pwnsause3308d ago

"The PS2 had no competition for it's first 19 months on the market."

so you are basically saying the Dreamcast never existed then, not to mention the gamecube and the xbox. idiot...

aspergersyndrome3308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

Yes. 19 months with no competition!

The Playstation 2 was released 04/03/2000
The Gamecube was released 14/09/2001
The Xbox was released 15/11/2001

If you want to split hairs, then it was 18 months and 2 weeks before another console was released.

As for the Dreamcast it died in March 1999 when Sony announced the PS2. The Dreamcast was hardly competition. Despite it's amazing games, Sega as a company was too far gone, and nothing could be done to save it.

It is clear now, that you are the idiot. Stop rewriting history! Sony is incapable of replicating the success of the PS2, either in numbers or marketshare. The industry itself has changed, even you can see that. At this point, it will be a miracle if they can get out of 3rd place.

XxZxX3308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

aspergersyndrome is too ignorant, 3 bubble is too much from him, from the earliest day, We have dreamcast which gave good competition to PS2, die from the birth of PS2, are you high? then later we got XBOX and gamecube.. No competition ehh....

Elven63308d ago

The Dreamcast was huge competition for Sony, it even outsold the PS2 a few times if memory serves correctly. Sega also had exclusives and superior ports of a few games which drove people to the system, because of bad management from Sega of Japan both the Saturn and Dreamcast ended up having a horrible run. If Sega of America was able to run things like they wanted to, perhaps Sega would still be in the console wars!

trikster403308d ago

Maybe launched that early in Japan, but it did not launch in the US until October 2000, and it was 2001 before it launched in Europe. When the PS2 came out, EVERYONE was saying that the Dreamcast was the better system, and how the PS2 couldn't even handle the ports from Dreamcast games. Remember Grandia 2? Yah it ran like butter on the DS but like crap on the PS2, but do we really think the DC could do games like Gof of War and Final Fantasy XII? Heck no.

Sarcasm3308d ago

And the 360 has no competition for the first year and still got outsold by the Wii. What's your point?

IdleLeeSiuLung3308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

Unfortunately aspergersyndrome is correct. The PS2 had literally almost no competition from the Dreamcast and had over year on the market being the only console. That gave developers a whole year to adapt to the PS2 architecture. If anything though, PS2's win last generation came about pure luck (and arguably PS1). From a business perspective and given all else equal, nobody in their right mind would choose the harder to code for system.

PlayStation's glory days are over and Wii is the new king.

With that said, PS3 has a healthy user base now and no matter what happens it will be around and games will continue to come out for it. The reality is that MS and Sony is now fighting over the hardcore gaming market split between the two of them. By both consoles and you won't miss out.

SWANN3308d ago

PS3 the new Sega Saturn? Uhhhh.....No! An updated PS2? yes! Still an incredible, reliable console like the PS2. Ready to conquer the planet for the his gen? yes!

iHEARTboobs3308d ago

Wii is king? Not for my gaming needs. And i'm sure i'm not the only one that feels that way. They might be leading in sales but that doesn't mean anything to me.

"If anything though, PS2's win last generation came about pure luck (and arguably PS1)"

Are you serious? Over 100 million PS1's sold, over 140 million PS2's sold and counting......but it was all luck? Great games had nothing to do with it? Just luck? I'd hate to play poker against Sony.

ape0073308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

on ps3,why you hate the system that is the king

the ps3 is an amazing full featured system,full of AAA games,incridably relible,has best exclusives,tell me WHAT'S THE FUKIN PROBLEM?????

looks like ms throw money everywhere these days

when will they stop?

don't make me act like a fanboy,nuff said

20 millions sold in 2 years is GREAT and it's the most expensive one and ALSO REMEMBER ps3 give more profit to devs than 360 and a price cut will come and with killzone 2,god of war 3,blu-ray potential,its power,it will be the best system to own,MARK MY WORDS

Rock Bottom3308d ago

The PS2 had no competition for it's first 19 months on the market?

How old are? ever heard of something called "Dreamcast"?

acedoh3307d ago

you are trully ignorant happy face guy. You must only be 12 since you have no rational knowledge of history... The Dreamcast was strong competition with it's excellent price point and decent game library. I bought one in 1999 and loved it. Also the Gamecube launched one year after the PS2...

http://www.digitalmediafx.c...

Nintendo Announces GameCube Release Date

(May 17, 2001) Nintendo has announced details and a release date for its all-new home video game console, NINTENDO GAMECUBE, designed from the ground up to deliver on legendary game developer Shigeru Miyamoto's vision of innovation and creativity.

A dedicated gameplay system, NINTENDO GAMECUBE launches in North America on November 5, 2001

Get your facts straight...

+ Show (10) more repliesLast reply 3307d ago
No FanS Land3308d ago

I believe sony is known for hard to program consoles. Any way, the dev's gripe about the PS3 I hear the most is the way ram memory is conceived.

Relin3308d ago

RAM memory!
ATM machine!
VIN number!

...couldn't resist.

Back on topic, the difficulties on the PS3 are numerous. Programming with parallel processing in mind is very different than the sort of programming that's been used for the last... three decades. So the Cell itself provides new challenges (with benefits, of course, but at the cost of learning something very new after a career of working a different way).

Memory is a bit of a problem, since the OS footprint of the PS3 is quite a bit larger than that of the 360's OS. Those out-of-bounds MBs can be critical when you're maximizing performance (though, apparently, some companies are figuring it out).

Kushan3308d ago (Edited 3308d ago )

Yeah memory isn't the problem on the PS3, it essentially has two lots of 256Mb, one of which is faster than the other, it's up to the developer to decide which one they want to allocate resources to (and a bit of common sense shows you that you want to put your most heavily accessed data in the faster XDR bank).

The real pain is the CELL, or rather, the 7 SPUs developers can use. Parallel programming itself isn't actually that difficult, the hard part is when you're trying to access the same pools of data (like you would in a game), if two threads "overlap", very bad things happen, so you need to make sure they don't, which can easily kill any performance advantage. By their nature, games are extremely sequential in how they run, more or less you have to do things in a certain order, which is where the real difficulty comes in. The 360 was designed specifically for making games, that's why it's got a tri-core processor instead of dual-core or quad core or whatever, when it comes to games, it gets harder to "do more" with more and more processes.
The PS3 seems to have been designed to do everything you could ever want, it's because it's more generalised that makes it harder to make games on. That's not necessarily a bad thing, each methodology has it's advantages and disadvantages.

DJ3308d ago

The 360's CPU has 3 cores because that's the most IBM could squeeze on a single die without the heat dissipation damaging the chip. In fact, this is the very reason that the Xenon's L2 cache and FSB run at half speed (1.6Ghz). Microsoft wanted a multi-core chip within 18 months of launch, and they got what they paid for.

It wasn't because "having more cores is too hard to program".

The Judderman3308d ago

I don't see why Sony build em hard to program. I mean that is just dumb.
Has it helped them this gen? No.
It has some great games but they have taken ages and more money to make than if they had just used normal architicture.
They could have got the same results cheaper and quicker.

Raoh3308d ago

because the company still isnt streamlined.

the hardware developers basically made and handed it over to the software developers and said "here, go play"

instead of working together.

seeing as thats what happened. its shows promise in the ps3 as it still pumps out some pretty amazing games.

Lombax3308d ago

As far as consoles and non supercomputers go. So, naturally, Devs had a hard time in the beginning.

It's not like they made it harder to develop for on purpose. They just gave us the best they had, as soon as they could.

Dumb?

*Looks at Uncharted 2, KZ2, and Heavy Rain*

ngg123453308d ago

It already sold 8 million more than saturn. I mean this is a stupid article. It looks like the new n64 more than the new saturn.