World of Goo Piracy Numbers Prove DRM is Worthless writes "This is some sad news. 2D Boy, the guys that created World of Goo, are estimating the piracy rate of that game is around 82%. This originally came up over at Rock, Paper, Shotgun in the comments of an article about WoG's European release. One of the creators estimated that the piracy rate was about 90%. That's a big number."

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GWAVE3536d ago

Are these the PC numbers, or are they for the Wii, too? I loved the game on the Wii and I would be sad to see if it was pirated.

JsonHenry3535d ago

Everyone knows DRM is worthless. Pirates find a way around it every time, and the legit consumers are the ones left with the problems DRM causes in random cases.

ChrisGTR13535d ago

actually i dont think splintercell chaos theory has been pirated yet.

zagibu3535d ago

Chaos Theory has been cracked. Search on for chaos theory, filter for games, sort by seeds.

Bodhi3535d ago

Man, Splinter Cell Chaos Theory = The epitome of the espionage excellence.

I Call 9MM3534d ago

Yep, even the venerable Chaos Theory has been cracked. It took pirates over a year and a half after it's release date but it was eventually cracked. It did use Starforce, which has been reported to be one of the worst to crack (when it was released) but also the one to cause the most problems with computers.

82% is a pretty damn high number. It's sad that developers are loosing so much money to these pirates. It's not like movies or music, whose artists at least have other venues to make money first before the DVDs and CDs are released (like concerts and theater viewings). All video game developers get is releasing their games to make a profit. Tsk tsk people.

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 3534d ago
Polluted3535d ago (Edited 3535d ago )

I don't understand how this proves DRM is useless. If anything I think it makes a strong argument in favor of DRM. World of Goo shipped DRM free, remember?

MashedButtons3535d ago

if you read the article it explains...
The reason why is because similar games that ship WITH DRM see similar piracy rates.

read the full article!

Polluted3535d ago

@mashedbuttons: I get that, but upon seeing numbers like this I can kind of understand why publishers want a working DRM system. Just because DRM doesn't tend to work very well doesn't necessarily mean that the whole concept of DRM is useless.

Here's a case where gamers get exactly what they want and they go and steal the game anyway. If that's the way it's going to be, we'll lose PC games entirely before long.

Given the choice between no games at all and games with strict DRM I'll take the games with DRM, thank you.

I think what this really proves is that people are jerks. I was lucky enough to not have to pay for WOG because we got a review copy, but I would have never dreamt of stealing the game, especially in light of the fact that they didn't include DRM. Looks like 8 out of 10 people disagree with that, though.

So screw 'em I say. If a great company like 2dboy is going to get run into the ground because of piracy then they should fight back with some bloody draconian DRM if that's what needs to be done. Obviously gamers haven't learned their lesson yet.

knamelis3535d ago

cos draconian DRM works GREAT for PR right? like it did for Spore on Metacritic and amazon?

dommafia3535d ago (Edited 3535d ago )

Your post makes no sense, DRACONIAN DRM doesn't affect pirates ffs. It only affects paying customers. Look for every non-obscure game on those oh so hidden torrent sites and look at how fast they are cracked. It's even to the point where the pirated copies are shipping before the actual game releases.

Oh and let's not forget about Ubisoft using a pirated hacks to help out some of their customers that were having issues with their DRM scheme. LULz for all.

Polluted3535d ago (Edited 3535d ago )

Just because there hasn't been a good, working DRM solution yet doesn't mean the concept isn't solid. You guys just want an excuse to pirate the sh!t out of whatever you want without having to take the extra step of looking for a crack.

Boo hoo, go pirate some more games.

Edit: And who gives a f**k about PR. 2DBoy did the good thing here and released their game without DRM and what do they have to show for it? Insane piracy rates and lackluster sales.

You know who brought down the Spore rating on Amazon? Jerk-offs who wanted to pirate the game. Wonder how many of them rushed out and bought WOG. I'm guessing 2 out of 10. The rest just stole it.

Damphear3535d ago

you have no real valid point for DRM. you just bring up a biased view on it and demand it.

DRM isnt good for any one. people's comps die and maybe they have more than 1 friend in life and like to share games.

now if they dont want there games to be stolen they should learn to code them better. i remember before DRM even was out there was a few games that you couldnt crack at all no matter what but then steam came out and fcuked that up for those really amazing coders that can lock a game to a cd. even C.O.R.E couldnt crack the games. but then they all thanked steam and gabe for bringing DRM to the world making it easy for C.O.R.E to make games easy to get.

its people like you that ruin every thing for every person you have a biased view on life and watch FAUX news.

im glad every other gaming device has priates besides the ps3.

f7897903535d ago

It stops any new pirates when they think a key crack is a virus when their antivirus freaks out on their computer. Pirates will crack DRM no matter what. Basic protection is all you need to keep the basic consumer.

By the way, I have never heard of this game. Probably why its sales suck.

Mahr3535d ago

Um, if DRM doesn't actually deter piracy (it doesn't), is a major hindrance to consumers and developers alike (it is), and stifles competition (it does), then it is by definition a bad concept because there is absolutely nothing to offset any of its negative effects. Heck, in some cases, like Bioshock or Spore, it's been observed that the DRM has actually led to *increased* piracy because pirated versions don't have the same superfluous restrictions.

Pirates are going to pirate games with or without DRM. The best way to curb piracy is to work on vastly improved copy protection, not imposing arbitrary restrictions on *legitimate* customers like only being able to install a game 3 times.

MashedButtons3535d ago

your still completely missing the point...

82 percent piracy LOOKS like a big number... but its actually pretty standard... even for games WITH DRM!!

therefore... DRM actually doesn't really end up preventing people from accessing the game (they always find ways around it) and in fact just ends up costing developers money.

What would be a much better tactic is what you see with games that have online components... where people can pirate the single player all they want and it almost ends up being like a demo for the online component. Or including hardware (like rhythm games have done) that act as much more efficient DRM.

JsonHenry3535d ago

The only "DRM" I know of that works is the STEAM service. And mostly because you probably want to play their games online.

Polluted3535d ago

When did we start drawing a line between copy protection and DRM? Digital distribution is a medium like dvd and DRM is that medium's form of copy protection. Obviously there are some serious issues that need ironing out, but if we expect PC gaming to exist in any form beyond the next 5 years, DRM needs to find a way to work.

B!tching about it and doing immature sh!t like giving games crappy ratings on isn't going to accomplish anything. Especially when the very same people who raised such a stink about DRM in the first place just turn around and pirate games with or without DRM anyway.

I'm not trying to say I'm all for installing root kits and screwing over paying customers and I'm sorry if anyone here has had a bad experience with DRM in the past, but the fact is it's here to stay and someday, hoepfully soon, someone is going to figure out a good way for it to work. Not unlike the copy protection we were all so used to back in the CD days. It's important that they make this work, though because disc based media is not here to stay and gamers, in general, are thieves. 2DBoy's little experiment proves it.

Mahr3535d ago (Edited 3535d ago )

"When did we start drawing a line between copy protection and DRM?"

Um, since DRM's inception.

"Whereas copy protection only attempts to prohibit unauthorized copies of media or files, digital rights management allows the issuer of the media or file to control in detail what can and can not be done with a single instance. For example, an issuer can limit the number of viewings, number of copies, which devices the media can be transferred to etc."

"Copy protection-The term is also often related to and/or confused with the concept of digital rights management. Digital rights management is a more general term because it includes all sorts of management of works, including copy restrictions. Copy protection may include measures that are not digital. A more likely description to this is "technical protection measures" (TPM), which is often defined as the use of technological tools in order to restrict the use and/or access to a work."

This is why DRM specifically results in stuff like re-charging customers for things they've already bought, forcing updates on customers, removing features without any explanation given, or in the infamous case of the music industry, allowing record labels to demand that Apple selectively break one's music player long after a purchase has been made.

This type of behavior is not civilized.

Immortal Kaim3535d ago

"This type of behaviour is not civilised"... and piracy is?

I know DRM isn't effective (the piracy rates of many games are proof of this) but what do you expect these companies to do. As stated by several people DRM or DRM-free titles basically have the same piracy rate, those that claim they pirate because of Draconian DRM are fooling themselves, your stealing off individuals and corporations who are also trying to make a living.

I certainly don't have the answers, but If the rest of the general population hold the same values as some in this thread (not you Mahr), then I fear for the survival of this industry.

Mahr3535d ago (Edited 3535d ago )

"and piracy is?"

Certainly not. Men and women of good conscience should never resort to piracy, which is precisely why it is immoral for companies to punish them.

But the questions we should be asking first and foremost is if effectively policing piracy in this day and age is A. possible in the first place and if so, B. if it's actually viable and worth pursuing. Until we actually have a suitable answer to both questions, I don't believe we can (nor that we should) attempt to implement such a system as the DRM. For if the proposed solution proves more problematic than that which it purports to (and does not) solve, then it is no solution at all.

If the answer to both questions is yes, then they should work on technology to prevent unwarranted reproduction of a work. But that's not the same thing as embracing the DRM, which is comparable to responding to an ill with medieval bloodletting.

The last thing people should do is implement an intrusive, ineffective system that hurts consumers and *at best* does nothing to deter pirates.

And that's working from the premise that the answer to A is "Yes". Professionally? My years working in IT have led me to conclude that the answer is a rather strong "No".

"I know DRM isn't effective (the piracy rates of many games are proof of this) but what do you expect these companies to do."

Adapt to the reality that we live in: with the advent of the internet and P2P connections, pirates are going to get their fix no matter what happens. Rats will always find new holes.

Remember Napster? Remember how the music industry wasted millions of dollars in litigating against them? And what happened? They formed Napster lite. They closed that down-- all the pirates moved to Aimster. What happened when Aimster came under fire? They moved to Kazaa. Assuming the dynamic hasn't shifted again in the last ten minutes, now Limewire's the big go-to place for music.

Youtube falls to Viacom and suffers a major reduction in copy-righted material. Did that stop the pirating of movies and TV shows? No, there are literally dozens upon dozens of sites that host video-media, and it would be impossible to find and sue all of them -- and even if you could, twenty more would be up by the next day.

Tons of emulator sites get started and shut down every day, most of them with games from the cartridge-era, whose major selling point was that they were more difficult to break the copy protection on than disks!

Given the ease with which one share things on the internet, as well as the number of pirates in general, stopping piracy is not a viable option unless we go to ridiculous extremes like making it a capital offense or some such nonsense.

The smart industries and companies have been the ones quick to realize the futility of ending piracy; the ones most quick to evolve as a result. Rather than try to stop piracy, they work to provide suitable alternatives to piracy that they can make money off of. Hence why we have network sponsored websites that allow you to watch TV shows for free, like Hulu. They make up any potential profits lost via a variety of ways, which is honestly what should be the standard for all industries that deal with digital media. Download for free, employ lots of advertisements, feature in-game product placements, come up with premimum memberships that give users incentives to pay money, or sell merchandise too.

(In regards to the latter, arguably the best game of this generation, Portal, could have sold next to no copies and it still would have been a miraculous financial success due to the Portal-themed products that Valve made a killing on. Aperture Science T-shirts and Weighted companion Cube fuzzy dice for the win!)

"If the rest of the general population hold the same values as some in this thread (not you Mahr), then I fear for the survival of this industry."

Personally, I'm of the belief that most digital industries, PC-gaming included, would already be working the way I described if they weren't run by fifty-something or older people who don't understand the free market or the internet in the first place, which is why their response to piracy is to try to push through dysfunctional legislation and restrictions that don't actually do anything to fix the problem at hand.

I don't think it's a matter of "Will the industry survive", I think it's "When will the industry realize that it is simply not practical to attempt to stop piracy, and when will they move to a more efficient economic model that works with this premise in mind?"

Polluted3535d ago

[email protected] of text.

Once again Mahr, you're focusing on sh!tty DRM solutions from the past which I have no intention of arguing about. We all know DRM's had it's problems. That doesn't mean it can't work if done right. You can go on all day about root kits and such nonsense and you'll not hear any argument from me.

DRM needs to work and it can work without any of the probelms you listed off in those walls of text there. It's entirely possible for DRM to work much like the copy protection of old only on a new, non-physical medium.

Nobody seems interested in hearing the point I made several times already. It's much easier to just jump on the whole "DRM sucks because somebody in the interwebs said so" bandwagon. We'll see how much it sucks when PC gaming goes the way of the dodo.

Mahr3535d ago (Edited 3535d ago )

"We all know DRM's had it's problems. That doesn't mean it can't work if done right."

'Doesn't mean it can't'? You're operating from the assumption that it's the evidence's job to prove a negative. It's one of the major ideas within historical Western thought (as well as the foundation of the legal system of the United States) that the function of evidence is to prove positives and disprove negatives. I've yet to see you, or anyone, provide a single reason to believe that DRM *can* work.

"It's entirely possible for DRM to work much like the copy protection of old only on a new, non-physical medium."

Even the copy protection of old doesn't exactly "work" if by "work" you mean "prevent people from pirating it". Like I said (and like you didn't seem to read), there are thousands of emulator sites online that have pirated games from solid-state cartridge based media, which are supposed to be the epitome of un-pirateable technology.

Incidentally, it's "entirely possible" for mermaids to exist in the sea. Absent *any* form of positive evidence for said existence, however, it's logically unsound to start working from premises like "We can find mermaids if we just look hard enough."

"DRM needs to work"

No, it doesn't.

"Nobody seems interested in hearing the point I made several times already"

I mean no offense by this, but in explanation of this, I might offer that such behavior could be because it's a philosophically unsound point with a sum total of zero historical evidence provided in support of it. Are you by chance familiar with the work of Marx?

"It's much easier to just jump on the whole "DRM sucks because somebody in the interwebs said so" bandwagon."

I don't oppose DRM because 'somebody on the internet said so', I oppose it because it is by definition the expansion of a flawed but tolerable concept to the point that it violates property rights, which is simply not acceptable.

"We'll see how much it sucks when PC gaming goes the way of the dodo."

Like I said above in the 'wall of text' that I partly suspect you didn't read, I find it highly unlikely that that's ever going to happen.

There are tons of ways to achieve economic viability in a model that accepts the futility of fully combating piracy. But we can't get to that point because the captains of the industries in question aren't interested in changing with the times.

Polluted3533d ago

"No, it doesn't."

Yes it does. ;)

+ Show (15) more repliesLast reply 3533d ago
Damphear3535d ago

is amazing when done right. stealing music hurts no one as with movies. games hurt no one but the publisher not the devs.

get it right

Qdog3535d ago (Edited 3535d ago )

Who loses, when a publisher backs out from bankruptcy, and the developer cant afford to bring their game to market? Inevitably, the software pirates hurt themselves, and their gaming friends. There is a reason that it is referred too directly, as stealing. There is a reason that SWAT teams are having to organize strikes on suspected piracy shops, and the homes of software pirates, it's amazing how you stab someone else's credibility with terms like bias, and half-baked attempts to defend not having DRMs, but you yourself speak by a double standard. Listen, as Technology gets more and more complex, and requires more and more components to be able to game efficiently, there are bound to be more and more loopholes with the software involved. The difference between todays pirates, and pirates of the distant past, is the pirates of the distant past were put to death, like the dirty theiving dogs that they were.

I will say that, if you ARE a gamer, then you arent a software thief, but if you are a software thief then you arent a gamer. The problem with so many people's consciences, or lack thereof, is that proper lines have not been drawn, but I cannot sit by idly, as you try to defend the enemy of mine, and most everyone else that I know's(that still hangs by the threads of legitimacy), one and most satisfying hobby, and past-time. For people like me that have been deployed, and been to war, and been wounded, games are almost a therapy, especially for PTSD. They are a way for me and my friends to escape, the terrible and crushing price that we paid, so that people could pursue their dreams, and as a side-effect theives have the oppurtunity to pursue theirs, at the cost of ruining mine...

zagibu3535d ago

You seem to have a strange understanding of economy. If noone buys the stuff anymore, it won't be produced anymore.

Charmers3535d ago

I have to admit I am absolutely staggered anyone bothered wasting their bandwidth on this pile of crap. I tried the demo and was totally lost for words at how truly awful the game was. Now you can bleat on about 82% piracy rate but I would bet all 82% thought the game was a load of crap and uninstalled it after five minutes. I know I couldn't get the demo off my machine fast enough.

Now I am sure this game did well on the Wii, but I wouldn't even dare suggest this game did badly on the PC because of Piracy. The game was doomed from the start on the PC it felt so much like a "console" game it wasn't even funny.

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