Frogwares is reportedly refusing to shy away from Lovecraft's racist ideologies with The Sinking City.
I'll still play it. If it's not a jank fest.
"The preview indicates that the topic emerges early, with characters expressing the kind of rhetoric common even in the contemporary political landscape—such as immigration increasing crime rates." There is absolutely nothing racist about the concern for the sovereignty, safety and economical health of your country.
We're talking legal immigration here. The guy hated Irish Catholics, for example. Also had an pen hate for black people, called them semi-human beasts, and a general dislike even for white people who he viewed as having "inferior breeding". The fact that his villainous figures were almost exclusively Native American, Black, or various other nonwhite races is also a pretty large indicator.
"The fact that his villainous figures were almost exclusively Native American, Black, or various other nonwhite races is also a pretty large indicator." - Someone who clearly hasn't read much Lovecraft
I've read a bit, my guy, and when they're not minorities or poor, uneducated white folks of "poor breeding", they're some unspeakable force of the cosmos. Very rarely did he have a white villain who wasn't one of these things, and that was mostly his later works. Call of Cthulhu, and Shadow Over Innsmouth, however, DO contain this, and those are the biggest influences on this game. Lovecraft's racism is well-documented though, not sure why y'all are so upset people bring it up.
Yeah, but immigration typically doesn't increase crime rates, which I believe is the point here. It's false rhetoric. There's nothing wrong with being concerned about security and sovereignty, but that doesn't excuse people using false talking points to make a case.
ShadowWolf712. Okay, that makes more sense to me. My issue with your OP was what seemed to be framing Lovecraft stories to have the villainous figures " almost exclusively" be "Native American, Black, or various other nonwhite races" whereas from where I see it it's these ancient evils that are the main villainous figures and that, at best, any humans (black, white or otherwise) are merely lackeys corrupted by said evils, some more corruptible or more inherently evil. That's my take-away from the greater cohesive elements of the Lovecraft universe. I'm not however debating that societal prejudices and whatnot play a part in his works because they certainly do.
It’s a game who gives a crap. My god I wonder about the human species !!!!
IDK, maybe jewish people or freinds/family of jewish people who deal with enough of that IRL and don't want to also deal with it in their games? Just a thought.
They don’t have to play it.
So violently murdering people is okay?
"So violently murdering people is okay?" No it's not, that's why games with violent murder come with warnings too! That way those who are sensitive to violence know to stay away. So what's wrong with warning those who are sensitive to racism in entertainment to stay away from this?
oh noo! what next? we gonna get a murder warning in every action game?
I mean...we have ESRB ratings which mark that.
You mean the Violence warning plastered on just about every game?? This is a good thing. Devs should be able to tell their stories how they see fit and not censor themselves but rather let the consumers know beforehand what to expect in case there are those that are sensitive to the content.
Yeah.. I'm not sure what the big deal is, here. It's a warning - not a censorship. It's just a heads up, if you don't want to deal with racism in a game; then, this game is not for you. Not sure why there is so drama over this. I'd rather there be a label then censorship.
When did we become so WEAK as a species that any controversy,even contrived controversy for entertainment purposes needs a warning on the box? If your so weak, you deserve to be crushed under the weight of mentally stronger and stable people that you.
There have always been book burners and they have always thought they were morally just instead of tyrannical.
How does book burning even come into this discussion? You're literally to purchase this game on the free market.
There will be people that try to get it removed. That mob mentality is no different than a good old fashioned book burning.
"I want you to change it" and "You're not allowed to have it" are different things. Not to mention the whole, you know, free market you types tend to love so much. Well if the free market says they should have warnings and/or their product gets buried or something, who are you to say otherwise, right? That's not book burning. That's the "invisible hand"
No such thing as a free market anymore. I don’t know why they cave to “you types” but they do. Calling that free market to escape your book burning mentality is laughable. “Intolerance is not art” right? 🤣
If most people want something changed, or don't want something changed, or just a loud enough group of people want whatever it is to convince the people making it to make the change, that *is* the free market. Wether you like it or not. It's not suddenly tyrrany because you disagree, it's how capitalism is supposed to work. Never mind I didn't even advocate for banning it. Or even changing it. I pointed out the fundamental problem with the idea that people wanting somethign changed is the same as people saying something should be banned. Because those are *not* the same statement.
No, that has nothing to do with the free market if you’re loud enough to change something before it even hits the market lol. Such a dumb thing to say. The other guy brought up free markets too, like that’s the canned response from offended book burners. The free market would be battlefield 5 tanking after they caved to the “loud ones”. That game hit the market and it freely failed. The mob harassment campaigns have nothing to do with markets at all. It’s a book burning twitter seance and publishers are retarded for listening to them.
"The other guy brought up free markets too, like that’s the canned response from offended book burners." Alright. So, first, I simply come here to contend your radical jump from this content WARNING that'll be displayed. Now? I'm being uncritically lumped in with book burners because--apparently--bringing up the free market is how we supposedly operate in order to carry out our plans in the shadows...or something. You see just how quickly this has devolved into bad faith arguments at this point? And I'm not willing to follow Princess_Pilfer's argumentation, by the by. Not only b/c there's some questions that fall into the issue of self-censorship there, but also b/c that gets away from what I think this topic is about. "There will be people that try to get it removed. That mob mentality is no different than a good old fashioned book burning." But why should you be focusing on the extremes here rather than the standard itself? There really isn't this logical through-line that presenting a racism content warning leads to book burning as you think there is. By that logic, are you going to be howling in every N4G article once a game's ESRB rating & summary has been released? This extra bit of detail that--by all appearance--goes beyond the ESRB ratings is just more information for consumers to make decisions. Since this already has an M rating, the default assumption would be adults with cash making their own financial decisions. As of right now, I don't get why this needs to be cranked to 11. A publisher/developer making a specific warning about Lovecraft's racism (which did seep into his creative work) doesn't seem like that much of a big deal; especially so when they still respect everything else about his work enough that they've decided to craft a game adaptation. But you're free to die on this hill if you'd like.
I’m not talking about the warning system at all. I wasn’t responding to the article I was responding to a comment. I’m talking about the mentality that made these warnings in the first place. I’m also not trying to pretend that regulation is a free market system. Free markets have nothing to do with what any of us are taking about yet it’s brought up like a canned response. That’s all, I think it’s funny.
Content warnings like that have always existed... People just make fun of it more because of things like trigger warnings.
Does anyone care?
RaCiSm??? NoOoOoOoOo!! How will my tiny brain ever be able to handle it? I may literally die!
I remember the one book with the guy's cat having a really dodgy name, but I've read a lot of Lovecraft and I must be tone deaf because if he was racist to the point of needing a warning it flew over my head.
Oh, QUITE racist. Just not the type of racism or bigotry that's more known or common. He came from a family with old English sensibilities, so his bigotry was more based on his perceptions of "breeding" and good genes vs bad. But all his villainous characters are all minorities (including some incredibly bad descriptions of black people) and poor, uneducated white people with "poor breeding". His heroic figures are all very, very white, and usually stated to be of "superior breeding". Worth noting, however, is that Lovecraft's racism is noted for being a bit extreme even in the context of the times. From Wikipedia (heavily sourced): "In an early poem, the 1912 "On the Creation of N***ers," Lovecraft describes black people not as human but as "beast[s] ... in semi-human figure, filled ... with vice." In his early published essays, private letters and personal utterances, he argued for a strong color line to preserve race and culture. While Lovecraft's racial attitude has been seen as directly influenced by the society of his day, especially the New England society he grew up in, his racism appeared stronger than the general popular viewpoint." https://en.wikipedia.org/wi... There's also a pretty good breakdown of the man's MANY irrational fears and phobias in this video here: https://www.youtube.com/wat...
No doubt he was racist, even for the time, I just never felt it was blatant in his books. I haven't read all of them so maybe it's worse in the ones I haven't. I remember the heroes being white and ditto the villains, when they weren't fish people anyway. Yes there's a common theme of sinister communities being investigated by an outsider but as far as I recall everyone was white.
Yes BUT In "Shadow Over Innsmouth", the people inherited their deal with Dagon from a group of Polynesian islanders who were intermarrying with fish people, and the story as a whole was meant as a condemnation of interracial relationships. Similarly, in "Facts Concerning the Late Arthur Jermyn and His Family", a man is horrified to learn that his great-great grandmother, known for her violent disposition, was actually an ape woman from Africa, and he actually kills himself in a rather spectacular fashion out of shame and horror. The themes aren't always overt, but they are there.
Fair enough, I've read Innsmouth and I'd forgotten about it originating from Polynesia which does cast it in a different light given what we know about Lovecraft. Don't think I've read Arthur Jermyn but that plot line also is clearly born from racism. I think it's fair to say though that the devs of the game could have swerved that stuff and not have had to include a warning of racism. It's not like it was so baked into his writing that referencing him and copying his work makes racism unavoidable.
They probably could have, but then they'd be subjected to numerous think pieces about how they're "ignoring Lovecraft's racist history" and etc. I guess they figure it's best to just confront that head-on now.
Good as long as it stays true to the source material, let’s not sugarcoat the experience.
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