One story that has been dominating the narrative of Red Dead Redemption 2 in the last two weeks is the reported workplace culture over at Rockstar North.
Multiple devs are speaking up now: https://twitter.com/MiriamB...
Looks like the guys/gals at R* who have spoken publicly are pretty happy there. That said you cant please everyone. We live in an age where everything has to be overblown to huge proportions.
Ultra This was my point yesterday. I was media ran with a story with few unhappy ex employees yet there are thousands of happy employees at Rockstar But media ran with it and many YouTubers gave it around the clock coverage. It was a like I said yesterday it's very common for long hours towards the end of development to finish the game and meet in joust dead lines set by the publisher After development is done most employees get atleast 3-4 weeks off to refresh and many get even more And with huge successful games many employees get bonuses so there is added benefit in working extra hard besides pay and pride
Unfortunately, people see what they want to see, and ten people saying something is fine, doesn't outweigh one person saying it's bad. The original story about this...not the interview, but the relaying of that one quote....didn't really express what was trying to be said, and I even think that when it was said, it was said in one of those moments that someone doesn't think through what it could mean beyond what they actually meant.
the real question is " do you want to ever get another job in the industry?" then watch what you say when the boss hands you the mic.
Or "How to Get Fired 101"
Precisely. You can't be so fooled to think R* will actually let their own employees air their grievances to the public and its all good and well? R* probably gonna pay them bonuses just to keep hush plus they have a multimillion dollar game to release soon so any bad press means less copies sold, it doesn't matter if its slightly less they don't want to lose a single copy. Lol the timing couldn't be more perfect. Your all being fooled here.
Reality is, is that even going elsewhere doesn't solve the problem. It's easy enough to blame R* as evil if something like this comes around, but ultimately, no matter where a dev goes, there is still going to be some crunch. How well those studios and management handle crunch is important to how the employees feel about it. There will always be some who absolutely hate it. Some who are indifferent to crunch that isn't too bad, and some who live for it. Crunch is one of the biggest reasons for people leaving the industry. Which is why for the past decade, there has been more effort to reduce how much it happens, or mitigate how it can affect the workers. It will never be eliminated....that is probably impossible even if you remove all deadlines, but it can be controlled most of the time. Its all good and fine that people in the community want to stand up for these developers if they feel it necessary, but these developers aren't oppressed, or lacking in options. There is a extreme shortage of qualified professionals in the industry, and its really a employees market in terms of controlling their work life, salary, and benefits. These devs aren't being oppressed, nor are they without choice, so if they stay at a studio that for some reason needs excessive crunch, then they are doing it by choice. But I can say that studios that have excessive or frequent crunch times or just crunch times that aren't managed properly, have a very hard time retaining employees.
"To solve crunch, probably the best you could do is say: don’t try to make Game of the Year,” said Neil Druckmann. “Don’t do that and you’re good.” -blood, sweat, and pixels. Schrier, Jason-
Probably have to remove deadlines also. Since crunch tends to happen most when one is approaching deadlines. But further, there is often tasks that need to be completed before something else can be done, so individuals can often be in a crunch to get that done in time, or else everyone else can hit a wall and not even be able to start what they need to do. Even if you did all that, the only way to really remove crunch, would be to actively say, "You will only work 40-45 hours a week". No exceptions. And even then, there are people who would do it, because they are that passionate about their work. Its also worth noting that actively limiting the employees hours would probably greatly increase the development cost over the long run....as the production would likely go on much longer....and it's possible the some studios could go bankrupt, since milestones are important for getting paid....although that's mostly through 2nd party or indie studios.
Eh, there could definitely be laws in place to help. Anything above 12 hours a day average in a week shouldn't happen. So a limit of like 85 hours a week would be good. Also limiting it so that weeks like that can't happen for multiple weeks in a row.
This is getting ridiculously out of hand for no reason. Funny thing is the people complaining about a job they can't even begin to understand are people who only work 20 hours at a part-time job and think it's "too much work".
It's called mob mentality nobody is thinking straight when it happens, it becomes impossible to reason with them.
I know plenty of people that complain about a job. But most of them do so because they are unhappy with their life in general, because they complain about a lot of things. Those people still tend to show up for work. I do know my wife works with people who aren't happy in their jobs, and they have real reason to be. But that's a completely different matter, and may be more allegorical to the Quantic Dreams thing a few months ago.
there comes the actor
Well this blew up
I’m a doctor and 100 hours weekly is usual for me.
Supposing you work 6 days per week it’s more or less 17 daily work hours. Let’s say you sleep 6 hours then you have 1 hour left for washing, eating, pooping, everything else (living). I call this bullshit.
I once worked over 16 hour a day, 7 days a week for 3 months straight. That's 112+ hours a week. But I'm a programmer, not a doctor. But I know the hours can be even more brutal for doctors, especially for residents.
I am a child working in a brimstone mine 140 hours per week. When i finish my daily job i get a tasty food ration to share with my little brother. I could easily find another job in the coal mine over there but i am so happy here because i will get a big thank you and an outstanding bonus pay when i will be 14 and have to quit my job cause my body will be falling apart. But that doesn’t matter because then i will finally have a long vacation period to refresh. All this thanks to my beloved employer. <3 Get tour ass moving and stop complaining pussies.
No protections from retaliation by the company, yeah Im sure they're just going to blast their bosses and company. These people arent stupid. 😒 whats more amazing is people actually defending this BS. I agree if the job is too hard then change jobs but 100hrs a week that asinine. Ive worked those weeks and more often than not it lead to more problems than productivity.
Are there no labor laws in America? I'm pretty dam sure no company would get away with this for so long if it was 100%truth, especially with some of these disgruntled ex-employee's. At least where I'm from any company trying to do this would be forced to change.
You would be wrong. Labor laws are there 98% of the work force doesnt know what they are and companies sure arent going to tell you what they are.
So....now the company is forcing these people to say this? Or these people are blinded by something that they just can't see? It isn't possible that maybe these people are telling the truth, and that they are intelligent enough to decide for themselves what's best for themselves, and maybe take offense at people being offended for them on their behalf? You seem to think they're not stupid enough to call out their bosses, but you think they're stupid enough to just comply to asinine working hours despite having a choice? What does that really say about how you feel about the people that would actually be affected by this? Or are you one of those that believe these highly in demand programmers and artists are so desperate for work, that R* can just force them to work 100 hours a week on a regular basis, and they would just happily comply and not just seek employment elsewhere? As you said, 100 hours a week is asinine. It's can happen, but it doesn't happen with any regularity in any studio that I'm aware of. You don't believe that it's possible that the original quote was blown way out of proportion, and that people who question the validity of the claims are somehow amazing that people would be willing to defend the BS? There have been several devs on this forum talking about how these kinds of things aren't common, the person who made the quote clarifying what he said, their own employees saying their experience saying this is overblown. And you have what to support your argument? A misrepresented quote, and a former employee from 10 years ago? Seems some people have more evidence to support their claims, than you have to support your criticism. yet you call out those that are "defending this BS". @Jack There are labor laws in the US. R* is in the UK though, but as far as I know, their labor laws are better than the US.
No idiot the compnay isnt forcing them to say it. Go ahead go to the media and blast off about what is wrong with your company and tell what dirty secrets they have or do and watch how long your employed doesnt take a genious to know there is a reason whistle blowers usually stay anonymous.
It is stupid, I know, but knowing that they are not exploited will make my time with a game even more pleasant.
Lol who really expects them to say they hate the company they work for lol . . if you have a job even if you hate it you shut up because you need to be able to live . .did anyone really think they would come out saying anything else? pay attention to their actions not their words lmao these top devs leaving big companies and going indie isn't because it's soooooo fun being a slave to someone else . .they say what they have to in order to provide for their families and themselves . the gaming industry is so cut throat once you do speak out that's it . .you're essentially blackballed from the industry. Let us not forget we are talking about companies so fragile they ban youtubers from events for not giving glowing reviews . you have games becoming pay to win and hardly any reviews from top sites point them out . .this all happens for a reason.
Yeah, but they felt it necessary to say their own experience because what was being said wasn't how they felt. A lot of people defending these devs, but no one really seeming to care what they actually think about it, or what their actual experience was. Some people actually care about the company they work for, and as such, when people attack that company, they can be compelled to stand up and say to others that they're wrong. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Within a couple months, many of the devs at this studio are going to be let go because they're contract employees. There is nothing stopping them from telling us the deal if it was really that bad. Any damage control now will just be negated in a few months if this issue stays so popular. But what if the contractors let go come out and say it wasn't that bad? Will they believed then? Or is this just a case of some people on the internet wanting to feel good about themselves because they're standing up for others who apparently can't stand up for themselves. I feel there is a big difference between being against the idea of something, and outright accusing an entity of being guilty of something without enough evidence to support their criticism. Or will people just keep being offended on behalf of these devs because of some misplaced notion that they are incapable of defending themselves, and that they're so afraid for their jobs that they will lie publicly, when there really was no reason for them to say anything in the first place. There is a lot of attrition in the industry due to crunch. Which is why more studios are trying to reduce how much it happens. But that person leaving the studio to become an indie because they're unhappy with crunch, is going to find that their time spent making games is going to grow exponentially. Indie studios tend to have the most crunch. These devs don't need you to defend them. These people are not low on the totem pole, nor ignorant of their choices or rights because many have been in the industry a long time, and working for R* on a product like RDR2 or GTA will pretty much cement your ability to get a job anywhere in the industry. They are top tier, and you don't get in the door if you aren't good, or willing to do what it takes to get the job done. People are going to the extreme on their criticism of R* over this, when the reality of recent years is that the media who started this story has not proven they are a reliable enough source to discuss it to the point of being a voice of reason and truth for those that are actually affected by it. To react off a single report, is just wrong, and damaging, and ends up showing a lack of critical thought in those who with to be upset over it.
I do 48 hrs a week basic but expected to do a reasonable amount of overtime which 12hrs is exceptable (basically I have to do a extra shift a week or your out the door) taking me to 60hrs aweek (5 on 2 off) I don't complain as its a physically and mentally demanding job because the company say thank you with a good hourly wage £11.67 pH, month bonuses £150, weekly bonus of £25 for attendance and punctuality, yearly bonus of £750 and a £500 bonus if I recommend a future employee, free cooked meals everyday and get free hot and cold drinks. They also paid 1000s of pounds on my training with all my fork lift licences etc, free use of the fitness centre across the road (sauna, swimming, gym etc)
Many doctors and police officers work 60 hours a week. 12 hours shifts, usually with a day off in between. Most weeks they'll work 4 days, some weeks they'll work 5 as their rotation gets them to a long weekend of 4 days or so. There are a lot of people who work such hours in a lot of different trades. When I was going to school to study game development, I was a GM at a restaurant for three years, and I'd easily work 60 hours a week, on salary, with no overtime, while taking the maximum number of classes allowed in a semester to finish up as quickly as possible. I did the work hours because I felt it necessary to get my job done. I wasn't required to, but it's just who I am. I've since moderated my work vs personal life to be more beneficial to me, but I can often exceed the normal or expected hours I work every week, because I still care about my work, doing a good job, and helping to build the company I work for.
So they got permission to speak openly then?, also why would they speak about how "happy" they are at R*in the first place, what do they have to prove or benefit from it, take 2 really do cover they're asses on all fronts don't they, wonder if they make the pa's play fetch as well
Ever consider that maybe they like where they work? Maybe the claim of 100 hour work weeks they know isn't true, or is being overblown on just how bad it was. I mean, in all this, people see 100 hour work weeks, and assume that it was awful for the employees. That it was extended. I've seen people act like the whole 100 hours would have been strapped to a chair, not being allowed to leave. Anyone that's been in crunch can tell you that there is a general feeling of purpose and comradely among those affected by it, or those who aren't required to work it, because they are all in it together, or they understand why its being done. The exceptions to this are when it is frequent, and can be avoided. Maybe they don't appreciate other people criticizing their employer because their employer has been good to them? Maybe they just don't like others being offended on their behalf as if they are incapable or prevented from making their own decisions in life, talking about them as if they're children who don't know their choices, when those standing up for them don't often seem to have the first clue about game development, or the mentality that most game developers have to deliver a quality product. A mentality which is born from passion for their craft, and their love of video games, because, for the most part, people who get into the gaming industry, tend to love what they do. It's not to say they don't get burned out as priorities change in their life, but that doesn't happen across the board, with every dev, during every crunch, and many of these devs will continue on to the next job, where they're likely to face more crunch, and they know it and accept it. They may not have anything to gain from saying their own experience, but do they have anything to lose by not saying something? I don't expect someone who's unhappy to come out publicly while working at the studio, but at the same time, we, as the community, can't pretend to be standing up for these people's rights or well being, all while ignoring how they actually may feel about it, or dismissing such things as some sort of conspiracy. That kind of mentality is no better than these SJW types trying to stand up for groups they feel are marginalized as if they care about what those SJW types are offended over, or see it as a problem, or if they even need or want those people standing up for them. The average engineer makes between 80-120K a year. Specialized skills in the industry can easily make $200-300K a year. I have a specialized skill set, and I could go work for any dev on the scale of Naughty Dog, R*, Epic, etc, and make $250-350K a year. I'm happy making $220K a year, making tools, and I work crunch sometimes....by choice....and I don't need forum warriors protecting my interests. The devs at R* are in the same boat...because these are the best of the best. R* doesn't have to do anything to address this issue. There is no reason for them to compel their employees to speak publicly about this...and usually employees are discouraged from speaking publicly about anything. This topic will die down in a few days, their game will sell, and everyone will move onto the next topic. But the person who made the quote felt it necessary to clarify his statement, and some employees seem to feel it important to get permission to speak publicly about it. That means that they do care about their image, and they're confident that they do the right thing.
Feel like a lot of people just have shitty jobs. Anyone else here ever had so much OT your check was SMALLER than normal because of tax? Sucks. D; Not all jobs are sitting on your butt shuffling papers all day. I've pulled numerous 48 hours shifts where we broke for 2-3 hours naps in the back. Why? It's called being a public servant. Sometimes there is NO ONE ELSE. EMS/Law Enforcement cant just close because of understaffing. -_- Also I pulled quite a few 24 hours shifts at a 24 hour grocery store (Safeway) when I was a manager. Bills to pay? Chosen career? Good work ethic? Job becomes your life a lot of the time. Part-time, live at home, etc? Then stay the 10 hour a week bag-boy where you can throw a fit when asked to come in on your day off and not worry. Not all jobs are the same. And not all employees are good employees. If an employer is breaking labor laws (which exist in spades you drama llamas), or you just hate your job, quit or something. Otherwise be grateful you have a job. Damn.
I can say the overtime I've been paid in life I never had a smaller check than normal. Because taxes don't end up working out like that. But I can say they've come out less than I expected, because I based the amount on what my typical tax rate would be(take home per hour), and as you move up, your tax rate increases on the additional amount. I once got about a 3% raise at one company, and my tax rate went up to the next bracket, so my actual take home pay went down. I went from 78K a year, to just over 80K, which is where the cut off is. Luckily, I was able to itemize and get back a nice check come tax season. There was a time, when I was younger, when I loved overtime. Since I work more salaried positions now, I tend to try not to, but will if necessary, because I know I have plenty of weeks where I don't really put in 40 hours worth of work, because the work may not be there to put in. I consider it a trade off. Some lazy weeks, and the occasional busy ones. Luckily I can mostly do that on my own terms. When I worked in studios making actual games, I loved crunch. I wasn't salaried at one, and took home a great check. When I was a game tester, I was making bank working 60-80 hours a week, living out of the office. Was nice, because i was going to be unemployed when the game shipped. All in all, how crunch like this, or elsewhere affects someone is really on their own personal outlook or needs/wants for their work or their life. Some people take great pride in their work, and want to do well by the company. Many people want to be known as a great worker among their peers and bosses....sometimes when they don't do the work to earn that respect. Some people just want something with their name on it to be the best it can be. Not everyone is fussed by this kind of work, and those that are, eventually leave the industry, which is why many devs and pubs have been looking hard at ways to reduce crunch. Not just because crunch is expensive, but because there is a severe lack of qualified individuals in the industry, and losing people through attrition isn't helping in the long term.
Yeah these days I don't care much for OT. I'm stable and set and my job is more a means to an end lol Just was trying to point out there are plenty of insanely demanding jobs out there. Not that they are right or wrong per say, but the complaining of the masses just kinda urks me. Like the people screaming for a huge minimum wage hike. All for higher wages, but I have never felt the entitlement that a lot of the shouting mob demands. I have worked jobs where the pay was ludicrously low, and jobs where the environment was so awful and flat illegal (no one cared but me) I quit, choosing temporary homelessness. Just the mob mentality and screeching at every offense these days... err, triggers me I guess xD xD xD I'm triggered they're triggered, and not even being sarcastic! Damn you internet! lol
Make them work harder! I wanna be entertained in the best way possible!
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