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Pachter Factor Episode 106: Taxing Violent Games

Pachter explains why next-gen consoles will Have disk drives, talks Growing Xbox Play anywhere importance.

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chrisx20d ago (Edited 20d ago )

I trust PlayStation and Nintendo will have disk drives(or cartridge in ninty case). but we all know ms wants to go diskless and drm based, but they won't cos that'll be the final nail in the xboxs coffin.

affrogamer20d ago

I like the option of being able to sell my games when I have no use for them anymore

optimus20d ago

microsoft announced they are working on a way for consumers to sell back their digital drm, granted not for the same price you bought it for.

darthv7220d ago

@optimus, funny you get disagrees for saying something that many have been asking for and Steam and MS are working to make happen.

Smitty202020d ago

What if they made a market online so u can sel ur game?

optimus20d ago

@darth... That's because if that were to happen then it wouldn't fit their embedded hatred for everything Xbox. Not realizing that if Microsoft were to make that happen then sony would eventually do the same and then they would praise sony for "revolutionizing" It. 🙄

bloop20d ago

Everyone seems to forget about internet access when the "all digital" topic comes up. Where I'm living I have access to 1,000mb fibre. If I drive 5 miles down the road there are places I can't get a 4g signal on my phone. A friend of mine bought TW3 on the PS Store the same time as me. I was in the game literally 10 minutes after starting the download. It took him 3 days to be able to start the game as he only has access to wireless internet where he lives. Until the day we see at least 5g speeds EVERYWHERE, we'll still have physical drives. Console manufacturers would be cutting out a HUGE chunk of potential sales going all digital.

darthv7220d ago (Edited 20d ago )

@bloop... your example is a bit off. You mention you have access to fibre but yet you go down the street and can't get 4g signal. you know those are two different things right.... right? Most times if you have internet to your residence, it is direct wire to your home from the pole on the street (or under ground), not OTA like old school TV. The only time it is OTA is if you choose to go wireless, but if the service is offered... it is working.

As for the 'down the road'... that is the issue with cell towers. Blame the cell carriers for not having enough towers or towers with strong enough transmitters in your area. Besides, if you are going to download anything, chances are it is going to be at your home because of that fast connection.

As years have gone by, the inroads internet companies have been making in rural areas has increased. Sure it may not be 1000mb fiber but even if it is 1mb it is still better than the days of dial-up at 28.8k, 33k or 56k.

Dragonscale20d ago

@optimus, think its one of ms' better ideas. Theres nothing worse than buying a digital title and finding you don't like it but are stuck with it 4ever which is very possible nowadays with the lack of demos available. A refund or money towards a different title would be great tbh. Hopefully it'll happen on PS4 as well.

bloop20d ago

@darthv72: Yes, I fully understand those are two different things, and that's exactly my point!! Where I'm living I have fibre with speeds up to 1,000mb but my friend that lives less than 5 miles outside of town has no access to any type of cable broadband, only wireless and gets on average about 3mb. The infrastructure just isn't there, cable or wireless to cater for everyone and it will be a long time coming. Even in Ireland we've had great improvement with internet access through government schemes over the last few years but with that, cable is still really only available in built up areas and cellular has a long way to go in rural areas. I know plenty of people with consoles that can't get internet above 3-5mb speeds in their area. None of those people would be willing to buy a digital only console and have to wait 3 days for a game to download. I don't think we're anywhere near ready to go all digital.

Darrius Cole20d ago

@optimus - It's not just about being able to sell back you digital rights. In order to truly own a game, you have to be able to give it away for free if you want. You have to be able to give it away to a perfect stranger and you have to be able to sell it for your own negotiated price. If that was possible for digital copies it would break the single game model and thus it will never happen.

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bluefox75520d ago

I know they WANT to do that, but I can't imagine they'd be stupid enough to literally repeat the original Xbox One's announcement E3, I don't think they're quite THAT out of touch, not yet at least.

InKnight7s20d ago

Canaceling exclusives and still lying about cloud without any proof yet with just one game that didn't release since ever. I think they are this stupid.

Goldby20d ago

They won't get rid of the disk because Bc is a huge part of their strategy.

TheCommentator20d ago (Edited 20d ago )

Agreed. The ability to play movies is also a plus from a multimedia standpoint. I can't imagine any company ditching the physical drive any time soon, but perhaps an optional model may release without one at some point like "mid-gen".

JackBNimble20d ago

Wouldn't digital work with BC say for next gen if they think a little bit ahead?

Goldby20d ago

Yeah but it would be preventing people who still own the discs, or buy them used from being able to play them only way around that would be to have Blu ray disks mandatory for any new win 10 pc and add them to your library via a system check on the Xbox marketplace. Only issue with that, hassle and dome people don't have Blu ray readers in their pc

nitus1020d ago

One of the main reasons for having an inbuilt hard disk drive (HDD) and even the option of playing of a portable HDD via the PS4's USB is the fact that the read performance of an HDD is about 90 to 100MB/sec which allows for faster load times.

The current Bluray read performance is about 27MB/sec which depending on the game can result in longer (by a factor of approximately four) loading times hence the reason for using an HDD. Of course, if you have a solid-state disk (SSD) read performance will be in the order of 500MB/sec plus which is a five-fold increase over an HDD. Obviously to get this performance improvement your console should have at lease a SATA3 bus (up to 600MB/sec) compared to a SATA2 bus (standard in XB1 and PS4 up to 300MB/sec). Unfortunately, SSD's are more expensive than an equivalent HDD although over time the SSD will eventually win out.

It is possible to stream games but you would need a high-performance network and unlimited downloads (cost does factor in here) and for the majority of people worldwide that is not a viable or cost-effective option.

So for the foreseeable future consoles will have either an HDD or SSD to store games on.

BTW. In regard to a portable (ie. Nintendo Switch or Sony Vita) a cartridge is the best solution, however, a cartridge or SD card has about the same performance as an HDD but cost wise an HDD can store considerably more for the price. https://havecamerawilltrave...

RosweeSon20d ago

For this gen, nothing to say they’ll continue that next Gen certainly not from day 1

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kevnb20d ago (Edited 20d ago )

I’m not sure what you mean by drm based, all consoles are drm based. Are you talking about having to always be online or something specific?

Iceball200020d ago

I think your right. MS is the only one I can see going with maybe two SKUs at launch. One with a Disk Drive and one without at a cheaper price and probably a free digital game for good measure.

ImGumbyDammit20d ago (Edited 20d ago )

I don't think so. Where is any empirical evidence that MS would do this over Sony? Both companies have GAAS type subscription services and aspirations to expand (Sony just admitted at the investors meeting last week that is where they growing revenue for PS4 next five years). In fact, of the two they are the ones that if the internet for everyone was strong and their PSNow actually could serve games like they were made, Sony could actually drop not only the disc drive but any internal drive (I know that is not going happen but, if we are talking direction that is a more likely scenario than Microsoft having a discless SKU). At the same time, both companies have a need, albeit at varying levels, to support the disc player for this next generation. Clearly, the digital penetration is not near the level it would need to be to remove the drive. For either company, that could mean risking risk a lot of lost sales on games and consoles (especially if each companies base devices are priced similarly and powered about the same). Last I heard around digital sales was 60% for major AAA games. That percentage has a long way to go.

First, Microsoft has a need for a disc player because, unlike Sony, they have BC which needs to have the disc to work for those that bought the media that way. I doubt they want to fracture the ability to serve those users by having two types of consoles that differ by a disc player. Those that don't have one cant' use any old disc games. It is a silly differentiation that makes no manufacturing sense. It would make real sense if either company had a streaming-only device not a device barren of just a disc player.

Secondly, future Xbox consoles according to actual Xbox division heads will be carried forward capable and that means games you have bought already will be supported. So Xbox One disc games will run just the same on whatever comes next. If anything, when the next consoles arrive and if Sony's PS5 does not support BC with the PS4 games (however unlikely that may be) they are the one company of the two that can actually remove the drive and go all digital sales with a different SKU. Why would they need the drive at that point? They already have said they see no reason to support 4K UHD drives by their actions with the Pro. Telling us directly streaming is the way to go. I also see Microsoft as willing to be one here to continue to keep that $499 base price next-gen and moving their current X down to around $300 in a few years time. That gives them more wiggle room on internal parts for power increases and retaining a drive over a console priced at $399. I doubt Sony would do that higher price point for a base model. So, that also means would have to cut costs. >>> If my purely made up example came true it leads to what is most important to reach $399. Removing an item like a player can allow more money to spend on power in graphics, powerful CPU, more memory, larger drive on a device that is already designed with slim margins ($30 is a lot of money - considiering the APU is around $140 in a $399 machine). At some point (either company no matter the next-gen base system we are talking about) has to decide where the money makes the most sense to spend on parts and where it will not. I just personally think neither company will risk removing the drive for this next gen (no matter the SKU) just because it would cause too many issues and complaints.

I can just see it now, any company that does remove the drive they will take a page from Apple and spin it, calling it "courageous" that their engineers took such a risk by removing the disc player.

MoshM20d ago (Edited 20d ago )

They would destroy this industry. Bigger threat than EA.

wheresmymonkey20d ago

The PC and mobile markets says hi. Remember them, the much larger sectors. With far more players than consoles.

Every console manufacturer wants to go download only. Its only a matter of time. It really is in their best interests to. With no discs their profit margins will skyrocket.

And every console is already packed full of drm if you would be able to play copied games on them.and run unsigned code.

nitus1020d ago (Edited 20d ago )

Most games are still run off a hard or solid state disk drive for performance purposes and that includes both consoles, mobile and PCs.

It must be noted that in the case of consoles and PC's to a limited extent that some gamers do prefer physical media to digital download although I do think that over time (approx five to fifteen years) games will be digital download only and physical media will be a thing of the past.

Yes, it is possible to stream games (eg PSNow) but you really do need to have a decent network connection and an unlimited or very large data cap. Most people worldwide don't have that.

Pretty well all games have some sort of DRM associated with them be they for console, mobile or even PC. DRM is a mechanism to thwart piracy but no matter how tight the DRM, pirates will eventually find a way around it and this is very much the case for PCs.

One major issue with PC gaming compared to console gaming is cheating and this can spoil any players online experience. In addition, allowing unsigned code to run on your machine is taking a huge chance of installing malware.

Cobra95120d ago

The console market isn't either one of those. I have far more control over what I install on PC, how I maintain it, and how I safeguard it. I don't need optical discs to have effectively full ownership of my PC environment and software. That wouldn't fly with closed systems like consoles. I would not accept it.

PUBG20d ago (Edited 20d ago )

Microsoft has turned into one of the most customer friendly video game companies in the business next to Steam, so I think you're way off the mark.

Just look at digital game gifting, digital game refunds, backward compatibility that let's you use your old Xbox 360 and original Xbox game discs, the play anywhere program which gives you both the console and PC versions of a game for the price of one game, cross platform play, Game Pass for a very low price, including Microsoft exclusive games on day one for their service, and a very generous Games with Gold program, which gives gamers both Xbox One and xbox 360 games for free.

n1kki620d ago

You realize a disc is DRM correct? Having the disc in your system is the license check. All of the game data lives on the machine after the initial install. I can't remember the last time I put a disc or cartridge into any of my consoles. Actually I can, to play backwards compatible 360 games, otherwise I am digital only.

Cobra95120d ago

Sure, self-contained, unobtrusive DRM. It works on any compatible console, with or without internet, with or without an account. Your game is as portable as the disc is. All you need to do is insert it, and play--the way it has been forever on consoles, with no added shenanigans.

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ccgr20d ago

We use our as blu-ray players too

Gardenia20d ago

Yes no need to explain at all. It's so obvious that disc aren't going anywhere for a long time

Kribwalker20d ago

Or our Ultra HD Bluray players too

KaiPow20d ago

He's spot on about the retailer bit. Companies like GameStop dedicate 1/3 of the store to your console and if it's all digital, what's the point of displaying cases?

Neonridr20d ago

if it's all digital then what's the point of companies like GameStop?

optimus20d ago

...hence why they closed a lot of their stores and have changed their business to include collectables and clothing.

Neonridr20d ago

@optimus - I guess accessories too. But that would be a very sad store :P

optimus20d ago

Where have you been? GameStop has been and still is a sad store. Most of their collectables are overpriced. Most of the time, you know more about the games than the employees.

Nyxus20d ago

There's also a group of people who just want to own games physically, and that means there's demand for physical games, at least as an option.

wheresmymonkey20d ago

True, but if it's cheaper for them to not include a disc drive in their console, will make them more cash by not having to worry about the supply chain that surrounds physical media, destroy the used market, or allow them to.control it, and they know that most gamers will still buy the console regardless. Why would they not axe it?

WolvesDude20d ago

Err.. Once I've had enough of a game for whatever reason, why can't I sell it? I can for a movie, a car, a house.
I for one won't be buying any next gen console if I can't do this.

mcstorm20d ago

That true but all 3 will see the difference between digital and phicsal sales. I have bought 2 games from a shop this gen on my Xbox one the rest have been digital. The switch have been all phiscal though

Duke1920d ago

I still really wish the Pro had included an 4K Bluray player. Really hoping the next gen does

shiva120d ago

They couldnt fit one into this gen and we are talking about next gen...hmmm

darthv7220d ago

but... Sony has statistics that tell them people arent buying movies... they are more interested in streaming. At least that was their reasoning for not having one in the Pro.

Aurenar20d ago

I prefer streaming to be honest.

Duke1920d ago

Streaming 4k quality still doesn't hold a candle to bluray

jokerisalive20d ago

I prefer having both streaming AND a dedicated UHD drive like the competition. Streaming quality is never as good as an actual uhd bluray disc. There are lots of people who buy discs and have a library of films they own physically.

The 10th Rider20d ago

@Duke19,

Yeah, I'd take a Blu-ray disc over a 4K stream. On top of dealing with compression, you've gotta have some really solid internet with no data cap for 4K streaming to be worth it. Comcast is the only option where I live and they just rolled out data caps to my state.

nitus1020d ago

@The 10th Rider

It looks like the removal of net neutrality is starting to rear its ugly head in your area.

WolvesDude20d ago

I prefer having the choice.

The 10th Rider20d ago

@nitus10,

It has nothing to do with net neutrality . . . Comcast started rolling out data caps to most states in 2016.

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ImGumbyDammit20d ago (Edited 20d ago )

When Sony released the Pro House explained why there was no 4K BR player by stating "Our feeling is that while physical media continues to be a big part of the games business, we see a trend on video towards streaming," he said. "Certainly with our user base, it's the second biggest use case for people's time on the system so we place more emphasis on that area."

Other than providing media for possible required space for 4K games, if Sony actually believed that statement they made when they released the Pro then I don't see why they would include a 4K player on a new console for entertainment purposes. In a few years, streaming will have only have become further entrenched in more peoples lives then it was two years ago.

jokerisalive20d ago (Edited 20d ago )

it should and the Pro should have had one too. it would not have cost Sony much and would have been nice to have a 4k drive in a machine that can output games at 4k. I get its a games machine but the fact the competition includes it in both low and high end versions of their systems should be enough to make them include it as well for the high end Pro.

OpenGL20d ago

I think the PS5 will support UHD Blu-ray because they're going to need higher capacity discs, 50GB will no longer cut it. They didn't feel like including UHD purely for movie playback was worth the cost as games would still always have to be on regular 25-50GB Blu-rays to maintain compatibility with all PS4s.

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