Pachter explains why next-gen consoles will Have disk drives, talks Growing Xbox Play anywhere importance.
I trust PlayStation and Nintendo will have disk drives(or cartridge in ninty case). but we all know ms wants to go diskless and drm based, but they won't cos that'll be the final nail in the xboxs coffin.
I like the option of being able to sell my games when I have no use for them anymore
microsoft announced they are working on a way for consumers to sell back their digital drm, granted not for the same price you bought it for.
@optimus, funny you get disagrees for saying something that many have been asking for and Steam and MS are working to make happen.
What if they made a market online so u can sel ur game?
@darth... That's because if that were to happen then it wouldn't fit their embedded hatred for everything Xbox. Not realizing that if Microsoft were to make that happen then sony would eventually do the same and then they would praise sony for "revolutionizing" It. 🙄
Everyone seems to forget about internet access when the "all digital" topic comes up. Where I'm living I have access to 1,000mb fibre. If I drive 5 miles down the road there are places I can't get a 4g signal on my phone. A friend of mine bought TW3 on the PS Store the same time as me. I was in the game literally 10 minutes after starting the download. It took him 3 days to be able to start the game as he only has access to wireless internet where he lives. Until the day we see at least 5g speeds EVERYWHERE, we'll still have physical drives. Console manufacturers would be cutting out a HUGE chunk of potential sales going all digital.
@bloop... your example is a bit off. You mention you have access to fibre but yet you go down the street and can't get 4g signal. you know those are two different things right.... right? Most times if you have internet to your residence, it is direct wire to your home from the pole on the street (or under ground), not OTA like old school TV. The only time it is OTA is if you choose to go wireless, but if the service is offered... it is working. As for the 'down the road'... that is the issue with cell towers. Blame the cell carriers for not having enough towers or towers with strong enough transmitters in your area. Besides, if you are going to download anything, chances are it is going to be at your home because of that fast connection. As years have gone by, the inroads internet companies have been making in rural areas has increased. Sure it may not be 1000mb fiber but even if it is 1mb it is still better than the days of dial-up at 28.8k, 33k or 56k.
@optimus, think its one of ms' better ideas. Theres nothing worse than buying a digital title and finding you don't like it but are stuck with it 4ever which is very possible nowadays with the lack of demos available. A refund or money towards a different title would be great tbh. Hopefully it'll happen on PS4 as well.
@darthv72: Yes, I fully understand those are two different things, and that's exactly my point!! Where I'm living I have fibre with speeds up to 1,000mb but my friend that lives less than 5 miles outside of town has no access to any type of cable broadband, only wireless and gets on average about 3mb. The infrastructure just isn't there, cable or wireless to cater for everyone and it will be a long time coming. Even in Ireland we've had great improvement with internet access through government schemes over the last few years but with that, cable is still really only available in built up areas and cellular has a long way to go in rural areas. I know plenty of people with consoles that can't get internet above 3-5mb speeds in their area. None of those people would be willing to buy a digital only console and have to wait 3 days for a game to download. I don't think we're anywhere near ready to go all digital.
@optimus - It's not just about being able to sell back you digital rights. In order to truly own a game, you have to be able to give it away for free if you want. You have to be able to give it away to a perfect stranger and you have to be able to sell it for your own negotiated price. If that was possible for digital copies it would break the single game model and thus it will never happen.
I know they WANT to do that, but I can't imagine they'd be stupid enough to literally repeat the original Xbox One's announcement E3, I don't think they're quite THAT out of touch, not yet at least.
Canaceling exclusives and still lying about cloud without any proof yet with just one game that didn't release since ever. I think they are this stupid.
They won't get rid of the disk because Bc is a huge part of their strategy.
Agreed. The ability to play movies is also a plus from a multimedia standpoint. I can't imagine any company ditching the physical drive any time soon, but perhaps an optional model may release without one at some point like "mid-gen".
Wouldn't digital work with BC say for next gen if they think a little bit ahead?
Yeah but it would be preventing people who still own the discs, or buy them used from being able to play them only way around that would be to have Blu ray disks mandatory for any new win 10 pc and add them to your library via a system check on the Xbox marketplace. Only issue with that, hassle and dome people don't have Blu ray readers in their pc
One of the main reasons for having an inbuilt hard disk drive (HDD) and even the option of playing of a portable HDD via the PS4's USB is the fact that the read performance of an HDD is about 90 to 100MB/sec which allows for faster load times. The current Bluray read performance is about 27MB/sec which depending on the game can result in longer (by a factor of approximately four) loading times hence the reason for using an HDD. Of course, if you have a solid-state disk (SSD) read performance will be in the order of 500MB/sec plus which is a five-fold increase over an HDD. Obviously to get this performance improvement your console should have at lease a SATA3 bus (up to 600MB/sec) compared to a SATA2 bus (standard in XB1 and PS4 up to 300MB/sec). Unfortunately, SSD's are more expensive than an equivalent HDD although over time the SSD will eventually win out. It is possible to stream games but you would need a high-performance network and unlimited downloads (cost does factor in here) and for the majority of people worldwide that is not a viable or cost-effective option. So for the foreseeable future consoles will have either an HDD or SSD to store games on. BTW. In regard to a portable (ie. Nintendo Switch or Sony Vita) a cartridge is the best solution, however, a cartridge or SD card has about the same performance as an HDD but cost wise an HDD can store considerably more for the price. https://havecamerawilltrave...
For this gen, nothing to say they’ll continue that next Gen certainly not from day 1
I’m not sure what you mean by drm based, all consoles are drm based. Are you talking about having to always be online or something specific?
I think your right. MS is the only one I can see going with maybe two SKUs at launch. One with a Disk Drive and one without at a cheaper price and probably a free digital game for good measure.
I don't think so. Where is any empirical evidence that MS would do this over Sony? Both companies have GAAS type subscription services and aspirations to expand (Sony just admitted at the investors meeting last week that is where they growing revenue for PS4 next five years). In fact, of the two they are the ones that if the internet for everyone was strong and their PSNow actually could serve games like they were made, Sony could actually drop not only the disc drive but any internal drive (I know that is not going happen but, if we are talking direction that is a more likely scenario than Microsoft having a discless SKU). At the same time, both companies have a need, albeit at varying levels, to support the disc player for this next generation. Clearly, the digital penetration is not near the level it would need to be to remove the drive. For either company, that could mean risking risk a lot of lost sales on games and consoles (especially if each companies base devices are priced similarly and powered about the same). Last I heard around digital sales was 60% for major AAA games. That percentage has a long way to go. First, Microsoft has a need for a disc player because, unlike Sony, they have BC which needs to have the disc to work for those that bought the media that way. I doubt they want to fracture the ability to serve those users by having two types of consoles that differ by a disc player. Those that don't have one cant' use any old disc games. It is a silly differentiation that makes no manufacturing sense. It would make real sense if either company had a streaming-only device not a device barren of just a disc player. Secondly, future Xbox consoles according to actual Xbox division heads will be carried forward capable and that means games you have bought already will be supported. So Xbox One disc games will run just the same on whatever comes next. If anything, when the next consoles arrive and if Sony's PS5 does not support BC with the PS4 games (however unlikely that may be) they are the one company of the two that can actually remove the drive and go all digital sales with a different SKU. Why would they need the drive at that point? They already have said they see no reason to support 4K UHD drives by their actions with the Pro. Telling us directly streaming is the way to go. I also see Microsoft as willing to be one here to continue to keep that $499 base price next-gen and moving their current X down to around $300 in a few years time. That gives them more wiggle room on internal parts for power increases and retaining a drive over a console priced at $399. I doubt Sony would do that higher price point for a base model. So, that also means would have to cut costs. >>> If my purely made up example came true it leads to what is most important to reach $399. Removing an item like a player can allow more money to spend on power in graphics, powerful CPU, more memory, larger drive on a device that is already designed with slim margins ($30 is a lot of money - considiering the APU is around $140 in a $399 machine). At some point (either company no matter the next-gen base system we are talking about) has to decide where the money makes the most sense to spend on parts and where it will not. I just personally think neither company will risk removing the drive for this next gen (no matter the SKU) just because it would cause too many issues and complaints. I can just see it now, any company that does remove the drive they will take a page from Apple and spin it, calling it "courageous" that their engineers took such a risk by removing the disc player.
The PC and mobile markets says hi. Remember them, the much larger sectors. With far more players than consoles. Every console manufacturer wants to go download only. Its only a matter of time. It really is in their best interests to. With no discs their profit margins will skyrocket. And every console is already packed full of drm if you would be able to play copied games on them.and run unsigned code.
Most games are still run off a hard or solid state disk drive for performance purposes and that includes both consoles, mobile and PCs. It must be noted that in the case of consoles and PC's to a limited extent that some gamers do prefer physical media to digital download although I do think that over time (approx five to fifteen years) games will be digital download only and physical media will be a thing of the past. Yes, it is possible to stream games (eg PSNow) but you really do need to have a decent network connection and an unlimited or very large data cap. Most people worldwide don't have that. Pretty well all games have some sort of DRM associated with them be they for console, mobile or even PC. DRM is a mechanism to thwart piracy but no matter how tight the DRM, pirates will eventually find a way around it and this is very much the case for PCs. One major issue with PC gaming compared to console gaming is cheating and this can spoil any players online experience. In addition, allowing unsigned code to run on your machine is taking a huge chance of installing malware.
The console market isn't either one of those. I have far more control over what I install on PC, how I maintain it, and how I safeguard it. I don't need optical discs to have effectively full ownership of my PC environment and software. That wouldn't fly with closed systems like consoles. I would not accept it.
Microsoft has turned into one of the most customer friendly video game companies in the business next to Steam, so I think you're way off the mark. Just look at digital game gifting, digital game refunds, backward compatibility that let's you use your old Xbox 360 and original Xbox game discs, the play anywhere program which gives you both the console and PC versions of a game for the price of one game, cross platform play, Game Pass for a very low price, including Microsoft exclusive games on day one for their service, and a very generous Games with Gold program, which gives gamers both Xbox One and xbox 360 games for free.
You realize a disc is DRM correct? Having the disc in your system is the license check. All of the game data lives on the machine after the initial install. I can't remember the last time I put a disc or cartridge into any of my consoles. Actually I can, to play backwards compatible 360 games, otherwise I am digital only.
Sure, self-contained, unobtrusive DRM. It works on any compatible console, with or without internet, with or without an account. Your game is as portable as the disc is. All you need to do is insert it, and play--the way it has been forever on consoles, with no added shenanigans.
We use our as blu-ray players too
Yes no need to explain at all. It's so obvious that disc aren't going anywhere for a long time
Or our Ultra HD Bluray players too
He's spot on about the retailer bit. Companies like GameStop dedicate 1/3 of the store to your console and if it's all digital, what's the point of displaying cases?
if it's all digital then what's the point of companies like GameStop?
...hence why they closed a lot of their stores and have changed their business to include collectables and clothing.
@optimus - I guess accessories too. But that would be a very sad store :P
Where have you been? GameStop has been and still is a sad store. Most of their collectables are overpriced. Most of the time, you know more about the games than the employees.
There's also a group of people who just want to own games physically, and that means there's demand for physical games, at least as an option.
True, but if it's cheaper for them to not include a disc drive in their console, will make them more cash by not having to worry about the supply chain that surrounds physical media, destroy the used market, or allow them to.control it, and they know that most gamers will still buy the console regardless. Why would they not axe it?
Err.. Once I've had enough of a game for whatever reason, why can't I sell it? I can for a movie, a car, a house. I for one won't be buying any next gen console if I can't do this.
That true but all 3 will see the difference between digital and phicsal sales. I have bought 2 games from a shop this gen on my Xbox one the rest have been digital. The switch have been all phiscal though
I still really wish the Pro had included an 4K Bluray player. Really hoping the next gen does
of course it will.
They couldnt fit one into this gen and we are talking about next gen...hmmm
but... Sony has statistics that tell them people arent buying movies... they are more interested in streaming. At least that was their reasoning for not having one in the Pro.
I prefer streaming to be honest.
Streaming 4k quality still doesn't hold a candle to bluray
I prefer having both streaming AND a dedicated UHD drive like the competition. Streaming quality is never as good as an actual uhd bluray disc. There are lots of people who buy discs and have a library of films they own physically.
@Duke19, Yeah, I'd take a Blu-ray disc over a 4K stream. On top of dealing with compression, you've gotta have some really solid internet with no data cap for 4K streaming to be worth it. Comcast is the only option where I live and they just rolled out data caps to my state.
@The 10th Rider It looks like the removal of net neutrality is starting to rear its ugly head in your area.
I prefer having the choice.
@nitus10, It has nothing to do with net neutrality . . . Comcast started rolling out data caps to most states in 2016.
When Sony released the Pro House explained why there was no 4K BR player by stating "Our feeling is that while physical media continues to be a big part of the games business, we see a trend on video towards streaming," he said. "Certainly with our user base, it's the second biggest use case for people's time on the system so we place more emphasis on that area." Other than providing media for possible required space for 4K games, if Sony actually believed that statement they made when they released the Pro then I don't see why they would include a 4K player on a new console for entertainment purposes. In a few years, streaming will have only have become further entrenched in more peoples lives then it was two years ago.
it should and the Pro should have had one too. it would not have cost Sony much and would have been nice to have a 4k drive in a machine that can output games at 4k. I get its a games machine but the fact the competition includes it in both low and high end versions of their systems should be enough to make them include it as well for the high end Pro.
I think the PS5 will support UHD Blu-ray because they're going to need higher capacity discs, 50GB will no longer cut it. They didn't feel like including UHD purely for movie playback was worth the cost as games would still always have to be on regular 25-50GB Blu-rays to maintain compatibility with all PS4s.
Of course they will have disk drives that's obvious. I love physical. I think they should release 2 sku's; one diskless and one with a disk drive. I do think digital should be about $10 cheaper than psychical.
Yup. I agree to this two SKU approach man. Im all digital this gen and am not planning to buy any disks going forward.
That would definitely work. Make the diskless version like $50 cheaper and everyone is happy.
I said that a long time ago and people disagreed. In fact, I think Sony should launch a PS4 without a disc now, as an option.
It would stop the bickering between fans arguing physical vs. digital.
@ TheEnigma313 I'd rather pay $50 more for the console and less for the physical content I own which I can do with as I so wish. Oh wait...
I could see two SKUs of Xbox’s. One with a DiskDrive. And the other with no DiskDrive cheaper.
The day there is no physical gaming is the day I stop being a gamer. All digital sounds nice but now a day every net provider has a limit on how much you can use in a month And than there are still areas within USA and especially world wide where you don't have the best of net availability In middle east/India/pakistan other Asian countries a lot of people bought over Xbox due to the fact Xbox patches are much bigger than ps4. Yes it doesn't sound that important but when the reality of the situation is to download a update or patch for ps4 game in 5-8 hours or Xbox patch in 1 day than you start to realize just how important physical media really is At the end of the day digital will never be 100%. I see it being 60/40 digital/physical
Bro... At the start of this gen i had 60mbps 75gb. Now im at 100mbps 750gb cap. Im from India. Ive moved two different cities and im getting the same in these two cities... From south. Im not going in search of physical media on day 1.
I understand but you have to understand not everyone is in the same situation or even can afford the same I am in Nola and have 1000GB limit but I can't look at that and assume others have the same I don't understand why those who like digital want those who like physical to be pushed aside or forced into a choice. Why can't both survive together
Good for you but I assure you there are many, many who aren't offered the same!
Although I agree with most of what you argued. It is already 60/40 split for digital/physical. And it was only a few years ago where it reversed at 40/60. Yes there areas of the world that have abysmal internet (even in the US that is true in places, even in metropolitan areas like LA - I know my office because of it's location in the Art District has had abysmal service up until recently) In a few years time (and with internet improving and with the possibility of 5G being available and established in most markets by 2020) you will see that digital/physical be more like 80/20 if not closer to 90/10. There will always be those that don't want to buy digital. Just like there are those that still buy albums or CDs (15 years after digitalizing music). At some point, not this next gen, maybe the one after there will definitely be no need for the drive for the sales of games themselves. Right now Microsoft already provides refunds on digital sales and is working on providing some form of a resale market option with digital games, (and I don't see why Sony wouldn't want to as well) that would give most people a greater incentive to drop physical. It also would also give MS and Sony (and I suspect game companies as well) some of that money on the resale of the digital game. Game companies right now get nothing on the resale so I think they would like this digital resale option with a percentage going to them as well. Now if Microsoft and Sony had something similar to the defunct Friends & Family sharing option (a true lending of a game) that original planned Xbox One had it would pretty much make digital the better option over physical for all but a very small group of users.
I posted thar few weeks back I was told I am wrong and in actuality the digital is about 30% right now of overall sales
Why haven't Sony or Microsoft allowed gamers to trade their digital licenses (and any associated DLC) with other users yet?
Games are gonna be like 200GBs next gen. Hope the bluray capacity is going up
I dont think Pachter is right regarding retailers not wanting to sell consoles if there is no physical games. Because games is the thing retailers is earning the least from. It takes up allot of space and the price goes down relative fast on many titles. It's the same with movies. All over Norway stores are taking in less and less movies and games. People buy digital much more or buy online where the prices are more competitive. You can still buy Blu-ray players at retailers even if the selection of movies is smal. Same with PC. You can buy PC's and accessories but PC games is more or less gone from all stores. So at least as far as my country goes what Pachter is saying regarding this I dont think that would be the case here in Norway. But then again this country have a good established internet infrastructure and people are always hungry for more fancy tech.