Short but smart editorial by a Kombo editorialist. Definitely worth a read for anyone who thinks Nintendo is ignoring the hardcore this generation.
Spot on. This is what I've been thinking for MANY months now. People are always blasting Reggie, so it's nice to hear him get a jab back at those people. "The gaming enthusiast that buys a tremendous amount of games is truly insatiable. As an example, in March, we launched Super Smash Bros. Brawl. In April, we launched Mario Kart. In later April, we launched Wii Fit. Then, in July, at E3, they say, 'where are the games?' They say they want the next Mario game. Super Mario Galaxy isn't even a year old yet." -- Reggie Fils-Aime, NOA President
One, I've never felt that Nintendo has "Forgotten" the hardcore, only either underprepared for the needs of this age of hardcore gamers, or is indifferent to these needs and will go their own pace regardless. Two, Brawl's online sucks balls. Period. That means that that amazingly awesome game is pretty much relegated to weekends with friends after the work week once playing by yourself at home gets boring. Mario Kart Wii is fun, but has enough changes to suit the non-gamer that its replay value suffers. I played the hell out of it until I unlocked everything, and I have plenty of fun on occasion online, but it doesn't have the configuration of replay value I need for it to be sufficient. As for Wii Fit... I bought it, I played it a few times, (slightly fun) and now I have no desire to play it anymore whenever I decide to game. I bought it for the board in hopes that real games will be released for it, and they will, but I'm still waiting. Three, Yeah, Super Mario Galaxy came out a year ago. And no, I don't expect another Mario game this year, and i won't be surprised or angry if we don't get one yet the year after that. The problem is with that game, just like with Zelda, once you completely conquer it, you don't want to play it again for a good while. I pop it in every once in a while to play a level or two that I particularly liked, or mostly just enjoy the music, but I conquered that stuff already. Nothing about the game brings a new challenge, so it's a game that needs time between enjoying it. So Reggie and Nintendo need to just deal with whatever blasting they get. They are either deluded into believing that they have done their best to meet the needs of those who play games rather than watch T.V., or they just don't care enough to do more. In the end, it is their policies toward 3rd party developers that make it too risky for many to take chances and fill in the gaps left by Nintendo; it's their choice to use cheaper hardware that keeps many awesome multi-platform titles from their customers; and it's their online policies that lead to too many of their games lacking lasting replay value. So they need to quit acting like they are the pure, righteous minded victims in this situation. The people complaining are still buying their product. They want to buy more of their product! And these are the same people who DID buy their last two consoles when so many others didn't. In this age of gaming where many people use gaming as their primary form of entertainment, Nintendo has dropped the ball, and they need to just admit it. We aren't insatiable, we're just starving for replay value, quality RPG's, and adequate online experiences for the games they expect to last us during their droughts. </rant>
Nintendo hasn't forgot the hardcore, but the hardcore have forgotten Nintendo.
Apparently the hardcore is a serious minority because quite a few people haven't forgotten Nintendo. What is the definition of hardcore anyway? I don't mean to offend anyone, but I think it's pretty goofy that people think of themselves as hardcore and that the hardcore of better than everyone else and more deserving than everyone else. Everyone else seems to be either "casual" or "kiddy". Either that or the console isn't beefy enough for people. Whatever happened to playing games because their fun?
Nintendo is busy working on its new MEGATON hits: "Wii Chair" and "Wii TaxBook"...give it some time!
haha killa dude that is pricesless......+bubbles
"What is the definition of hardcore anyway?" The commonly accepted definition among most sources is a game that one may play for an extended period of time, i.e. sustain continuous gaming sessions for an hour or more at a time. Similarly, hardcore gamers are those who play games for extended periods of time. I say "commonly" accepted because the exact definition of the term differs from person to person and because many people have adopted the term to apply to an ulterior meaning factoring a large number of variables. Some people consider "hardcore" games to be such because of plentiful quantities of blood, gore, violence, profanity, and other aspects that basically translate to an M-Rating. Others consider "hardcore" to be a term which delineates significant difficulty and challenge within a game. Yet others insist that hardcore games are games marked by significant replayability, and others, by dazzling graphics. And so on. And in the current generation of games, the term seems to have been co-opted by various individuals to serve as a rather slippery short-hand for "games that I personally like" and thus refers specifically to one's nebulous individual taste, although it carries with it connotations that it actually works on a collective level, enabling people to claim they have some kind of group back-up that mean that their opinion is more significant than it actually is. Mostly though, in this context, it operates like when young boys make a clubhouse and put a sign on the door that says something infantile like "No Girls Allowed!" in an effort to exclude people from joining in. Because, y'know, girls have cooties or whatever and clubhouses are serious business. "I think it's pretty goofy that people think of themselves as hardcore and that the hardcore of better than everyone else and more deserving than everyone else." I agree -- but you're not going to have very much luck when you're actually arguing with such people, as their sense of entitlement and self-importance is likely to overwhelm any possible points you could raise. My advice is to just ignore them and play the games you think are fun.
"Nintendo hasn't forgot the hardcore, but the hardcore have forgotten Nintendo." I really hate that term "hardcore". How can u justify whats hardcore and whats not. Would u call Pac man a hardcore game>? Look spretty "casual" right.....but what if a person who played it over and over and over, and was soo good that he could beat it with ease. Now would u call him (the player) a hardcore gamer, or a casual gamer. Because just coz hes playing what u call a "casual" game doesnt mean the player plays games casually. Hes actually pretty hardcore (coz of how good he is and how much he plays pac man). Simple addictive games like tetris, mario paint (knat attack), asteroids etc.. can be very "hardcore" by the amount of time people spend playing it and how good they become at it.
I agree with Mini Mario although I'd like to add to his definition. Just because something has simple mechanics and cartoony graphics doesn't mean it can't be hardcore. My definition of Hardcore is a game that requires massive amounts of skill to master and even when the single player is beaten on Difficult there is still huge improvements that can be made to a players skill. Casual is a relative amount of skill but where Luck prove a large factor. A game where someone that doesn't play often against has a relatively good chance they'll get a break and beat a master player. Or involves non-gaming attributes like exercise in Wii Fit. So for me: Hardcore = Supreme skill ------ like Megaman 9. Casual = Luck (and some skill) ------ like Mario Kart Wii.
Mario Kart imo is what it has always been easy to play hard to master.Luck has nothing to do with it if you have skill........luck only brings you so far. You dont have a 9999 online ranking score and 9 wins to 1 loss ratings with luck and some skill.
With the exception of Killa and the kid with the Village People Cop avatar, you guys make some good points. I think that you could define a hardcore gamer with a combination of what you all said. I think Mahr has a good point about time spent playing games. MiniMario and jtucker also make valid points. Games like Megaman, Mario Kart Wii, Brawl, Zelda, Zak and Wiki present different challenges and different levels of skill and they look and play differently. I think these are all hardcore games (Sorry, jtucker78, I think there's more skill than luck in MK Wii, imho). I guess my point is that hardcore essentially means people who like games. I think the confusion comes into play when people add the reason they like games into the definition and then argue that someone else can't like gaming for their own reason.
Your right steve Funny thing is though ive never heard the word "hardcore" until this gen,before this gen everyone was a gamer.Ive heard of core and casual.......casual meaning pick up and play...core meaning the title that is made for the fans. Example wiisports=casual because of its simple pick up and play with no deep features Megaman 9=core because the game was made for the fan,retro graphics,achievments,speed runs. I mean what if you really liked Animal Crossing?that would mean that Folk City coming out would be a core title to you because it adds more features and additions to enhance the franchise.Just because its not rated M doesnt mean it cant be a core title. "hardcore" is just a word non traditional gamers use as ammo in arguments.
the definition of hardcore game would be something a cult game a game that is dificult, inovative and only a select few ppl really play... like shadow of the beast for Megadrive, shadow tower for PS1, Baroque for PS2/Wii and Ico/Shadow of the colossus... say, how much of you guys finished shadow tower? how much ppl you know that know about it? i love it and i play it over and over again (now on the PC cuz my PS1 broken down)... some time ago that was the definition of Hardcore game/gamer today it appears to be the overhyped games... like force unleashed, halo, devil may cry, ninja gaiden... games that is not really dificult or need a great amount of skill but are called hardcore nonetheless... i still think that hardcore is the gamers that really like games, like ppl that comes everyday here on n4g and spent more than 30 minutes a day playing, the ones that get excited because some game got anounced... things like that...
The definition of " hardcore " has been distorted like hell, in ways that people could "justify" something...and what that something is...i still have no clue what that something is. It had a meaning but its now lost due immature little f*ckheads who needed to be so tough and awesome that they bend and twist the definition so bad that it now isn't making sense at all. I seriously hate the Word hardcore, its meaningless now since people don't even know what it exactly is. Hardcore Smardcore, F that sh/t >_>.. Tetris is hardcore! but made for the casual! OMG OXYMORON.
You're not alone in that thinking, Jeff. I think the Wii has a pretty decent library of games from Nintendo and there looks to be more coming on the horizon. I think the majority of people complaining are the fanboys of other consoles. I think the Wii has something for everybody, which fits my needs perfectly due to the diversity of my family's gaming needs. I also like the fact that they'll be re-releasing some Game Cube games that my kids never had a chance to play. I think the hate is either misdirected or due to feeling threatened by Nintendo's success for the various reasons that fanboys feel that way.
I'm not sure Reggie understands. When the hardcore crowd asks for something else to play, I'm pretty sure they're talking about something other than the usual first party games that get released over and over again. With virtually all third parties now at Nintendo's disposal, why not get some of them to create more mature and/or violent titles that will appeal to that audience?
Why does it have to be violent to be a good game for "mature" (lol) adults,.... o yeh putting the smack down on some hookers and collecting their cash, o man u are so "mature". U know back with the snes mortal kombat was pretty much at it limits for the console involving violence (mk2 with all that blood), and sure we all loved it. But now its allll people want, back then it seemed better because their wasnt much of it. Now its completely saturated and done a 180 because thats all these "mature" gamers want. (the ones that claim to be hardcore...u know..the minority) Mario galaxy had no violence yet it got game of the year on most sites,.... my point is, a game doesnt need violence to be a good game. Tetris is a great addicitve game, yet there is no head chopping...funny that>?
"With virtually all third parties now at Nintendo's disposal, why not get some of them to create more mature and/or violent titles that will appeal to that audience?" Because when they do that, things like this happen: "Forthcoming Wii title Mad World is facing a mainstream media backlash, after pressure groups called for the game to be banned in Britain. SEGA is due to release the Platinum Games developed Wii exclusive over here next year, but the game’s violent content is already coming under fire. “This game sounds very unsavoury,” Mediawatch-UK director John Beyer told the Daily Mail yesterday. “I hope the British Board of Film Classification (BBFC) will view this with concern and decide it should not be granted a classification. “Without that it cannot be marketed in Britain. What the rest of world does is up to them. “We need to ensure that modern and civilized values take priority rather than killing and maiming people. “It seems a shame that the game's manufacturer have decided to exclusively release this game on the Wii. “I believe it will spoil the family fun image of the Wii.” Unsurprisingly, the Mail wasn’t reserved in its criticism of the game. The paper immediately labelled it the “most violent videogame ever,” before spending much of the article explaining how the Wii is mostly played by children and families. Even the usually fairer Sun couldn’t resist throwing its oar in, claiming that the title is “set to wreck the popular console’s family-friendly image.” Despite Mad World unquestionably being a violent game – featuring huge amounts of blood and a wide variety of ways to kill people – as with Manhunt 2, a lot will depend on how the context that violence is portrayed in. Despite it being a SEGA published title, Nintendo nevertheless assured the Mail that “Mad World will be suitably age rated through the appropriate legal channels, and thus only available to an audience above the age rating it is given.” Mad World is due out early next year." http://www.gamer.tm/news.ph... Meanwhile, the audience it's geared toward is too busy writing articles about how not-hardcore Nintendo is to find out about these things.
WHY WHY WHY WHY don't people know that the WII has a PARENTAL LOCK!.. Nintendo should just say that and make it a public announcement.. then everyone would know and parents could just lock any M rated games away from the console.. also i know some people will say that the parents are too dumb but if all the instructions are given then their dumbness won't mean anything.. Example: "DID YOU KNOW THE WII HAS A PARENTAL LOCK, yes it does and you can set the level of games that your child can play. For more details visit www.nintendo.com/parents"
You mean like Conduit,Madworld, NMh2, Redsteel2, Cursed Mountain, CoD, Dead Rising, Resident Evil, etc? Oh and I could keep naming them off. It sounds more like a lack of knowing these games are coming instead of them not coming at all.
The problem is you don't get 3rd parties to create stuff. That is the problem with SONY and MS. They get people to make certain games and we wonder why we are getting bored. The really big publisher just suck a lot right now. Actually they always have. They are not doing any better on the HD systems in my eyes other Wise I would have bought one by now.
But if you take into account what the other system have you can see why many of us are upset. They PS3 which is supposedly the hardest of the 3 to develop for has many more enjoyable hardcore titles under it's belt than the Wii does, and they both launched at the same time. There are only 10 games on this list (probably 3 thrid party title could be added), and some don't deserve to be on a list for hardcore. Just because you pop a mascot on it doesn't make a game hardcore (Strikers, Wario Ware: SM, fun but not hardcore to me). And even though all those games are out just think back to how long it took for the next hardcore game to come out on the Wii after launch. Done thinking well it took 9 months for Metroid Prime 3 to come out. Which means after you beat Zelda you could have had a baby before another good Wii game came along. And the same thing is happening again. Nintendo developers are extremely slow when it comes to making games. They could easily use small groups to make quick Wii Ware titles until we get sequels to the major IP's or they could make new IP's. I think we need to send good old Teddy (Ted Price) over to Nintendo to light some fire under their you know what. Nintendo needs some Insomniac work ethic. By the why what does IP stand for I forgot. Intelsomething Property
This article was about first party games. I'm curious about these numerous first party hardcore hits for the PS3. Could you name the ones you think top Nintendo's offerings? IP stands for Intellectual Property
"This article was about first party games. I'm curious about these numerous first party hardcore hits for the PS3. Could you name the ones you think top Nintendo's offerings? IP stands for Intellectual Property" ooooh u made an very good post. With some thought put into it. I bet u get allll the "diagrees"...next to me. Fact is people forget nintendo always seem to make brilliant 1st party games (their core franchies and not spin offs like mario at ther olympics...which was SEGA...not nintendo), and its hard to rival that with what some of the 3rd party offerings can only come up with. I bet people wouldnt complain if nintedo made there games for sonys machine.
I think that's a valid point Rute. But the problem with the Wii isn't number of First Party so called "hardcore" titles. It's the fact that "hardcore" titles aren't that popular on the Wii. Wii Sports far out favours Mario by the majority of Wii owners. Now look at PS3 and 360 owners. MGS4 and Gears 2 are far more popular on those platforms than Singstar. Look at the PS2 that is cheap tech as well. It is aimed at a similar market to the Wii. Now Singstar, Guitar Hero, Rock Band are the most popular games on the PS2. Nintendo have done a good job bringing "hardcore" titles to a minority of remaining core gamers. I tip my hat to them. They are trying, but "New" Wii gamers (the majority) don't care. They want Sports Resort not a new Zelda. AND the reason is because the Wii is cheap. That is why they are fast tracking the WiiHD, to compete with the PS3 and 360 in the hope that Nintendo start getting some "hardcore" third party support. Nintendo will keep the Wii going like Sony have the PS2. A good example of what we are seeing also happens in video formats. Whenever a new technology comes out who buys it first? Who are the early adopters? Answer: Young guys with a disposable income! (See sony owners) That's why when blu-ray was first released all the titles released were big budget action blockbusters. Guys films. How many chick flicks were in the initial batch of blu-rays? NONE. Hollywood execs aren't dummies. They know who buys what. My missus isn't interested in blu ray. DVDs are fine for her. Nintendo need a decent bit of kit to get guy games back. The GTAs, Bioshocks, Dead Spaces, and FPSs. Nintendo - cheap, basic system. Launch titles? Wii Sports, Rabbid Rabbids. PS3 - expensive, tech heavy. Launch titles? Motorstorm, Resistance fall of man. Now that the 360 is cheap, you watch how fast that system turns casual.... ....beginning with Avatars, Lips and the "In the movies" (or whatever it's called).
Jtucker, I have never seen a post with more BS on here than that.. What proof do you have that the WiiHD even exists? Where are you pulling up the BS that they are fast tracking a console that might not even exist? What do you have to back up your claim that a free game included with the console gets more play time than Mario? I mean your entire post is just incorrect assumption.. How is it GTA and MGS are the PS2's top rated franchises but you act like it is Rock band and GH with nothing to back that up.. Opinions are fine but you are stating yours like its a fact with zero proof to back it up.
"What proof do you have that the WiiHD even exists?" I don't have proof. Just the constant rumours circulating the internet. We'll have to wait and see who is correct on this one. I say Nintendo's next console will be the first to arrive. Purely so they have an HD console and a low end console running parallel to each other. Like the PS3 and PS2. "What do you have to back up your claim that a free game included with the console gets more play time than Mario?" I'm not going to bother arguing that one. If you honestly think Mario gets more play time than Wii Sports you are one deluded kid. I can't prove it because Wii Sports comes with the console. I.e. no one actually buys it, BUT... Wii Fit has "out sold" Mario Galaxy and not only do you have to pay the hefty price of the balance board, but it only came out in 2008 Mario was 2007! While I admit Mario is much better, he isn't as popular. That proves the type of people buying Wiis and it proves my point. "How is it GTA and MGS are the PS2's top rated franchises but you act like it is Rock band and GH with nothing to back that up.." Go to Amazon.com Rockband 2 is currently outselling GTA and MGS. Another point to me. Besides you missed my point. I'm not talking about best games. Obviously GTA and MGS are way better than Rock Band. I'm talking about what people are using the console for right now. Right at this moment in time. I imagine most GTA and MGS fans have moved on to the PS3. The hardcore gamers have upgraded to the console that will be getting most hardcore experiences. The PS2 is now the cheap option that the casuals that are too cheap to buy a Wii will be getting.
So an amazon listing of a newly released game is proof its the best selling game? No thats not a point for you.. I mean I asked for proof and you pull up more opinion and act like you proved me wrong.. You honeslty think you have some valid point by comparing a just released game to games that came out months ago? Of course you dont so stop trying.. The one thats deluded is the one thats keeps trying to prove his opinion is fact with more opinion..Even your SMG Wiifit comparison is just your opinion of the situations. Sorry but Wii fit you can go to gyms and play SMG you cannot. You act like you know it all but you know nothing but your opinion. Still not a single fact to back up all your claims except 1 fact and that has nothing to do with Wii sports at all.
Out of 32m Wii's sold only 8 million bougt Wii fit. NOw I know you will try to again voice your opinion as fact but you cannot disprove this point. Wii fit selling to 25% of Wii owners is hardly proof of what 100% of Wii owners want but its not worth my time to arguing with someone who does so with nothing to back them up. COntinue to hate and spout your opinion like its fact. It does not change the FACT that you do not know what you are talking about. Also really love how Wii fit is your proof that people prefer Wii sports over Mario.. What kind of drugs do you take to even make that huge leap in logic? Logic is just a bad word because you are not using any..my bad. [email protected] below.. Sorry but its not worth time to argue with someone who is defenseless and cannot comprehend the points being made and is clearly incappable of proving the opinion he is spewing as fact. I'm still waiting on proof that Rock band has outsold GTA and MGS on PS2 like you claimed. Still waiting on proof that Wii sports is more popular than MArio. Tired of waiting for you to provide proof to things you cannot prove and obviously have no interest in doing. I am sure you will change it yet again to something else.. Hey if you wanna go around looking like a clueless moron thats your business. I'm putting you on ignore though. Be proud dude you are the first. I can usually get past anyones opinion but you are the biggest moron I have ever met on any site. Someone has to have an IQ of 12 before they bother me enough to do that.
"Even your SMG Wiifit comparison is just your opinion of the situations." Oh is it just my opinion that Wii Fit has sold 8m and SMG has sold 7m? "Out of 32m Wii's sold only 8 million bougt Wii fit. NOw I know you will try to again voice your opinion as fact but you cannot disprove this point. Wii fit selling to 25% of Wii owners is hardly proof of what 100% of Wii owners want but its not worth my time to arguing with someone who does so with nothing to back them up." So you are saying that 100% of Wii owners have to own a game to indictate their preference? That is pretty stupid. 25% of Wii owners owning a single title is a pretty good indication that "said title" is very popular in that demographic. EDIT: Certainly much more popular than: No More Heros -- 1% Metroid 3 -- 4% Zack Wiki -- 1% But I guess far more people want to play those sorts of games even though they aren't buying them... ...good logic.
jtucker78 Singstar sucked and mostly was sold in the UK. Yet Wii sport had a brand new way to control games. Another thing is you hits on the HD system are not even being played any more. The sales are completely flat. Let me know when MGS4 sales more than 50% of the install base. I mean you could go on and on. Devil may cry did not do that well. I mean really most of these games sold off of HYPE alone. So what has been the difference. Wii hardcore games have received 0 hype. SONY and MS knows you guys mostly just buy games off of reviews. So they work hard for it to get good reviews not by actually making the game fun but by making the graphics HD and buying tons of add space along with favorable bribes. If you look back most of the best sellers where deemed boring by the second week. You are trying to say that the Wii can no way become a hardcore gaming console because of what is selling the most. Well tetris crushed every thing on all consoles. Most hardcore games on the HD console do ok numbers. NPD PlayStation 3 * Grand Theft Auto IV * Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots * Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare * Madden NFL '09 * Gran Turismo 5: Prologue Xbox 360 * Grand Theft Auto IV * Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare * Madden NFL '09 * Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas 2 * Army of Two Wii * Super Smash Bros. Brawl * Mario Kart (with wheel) * Wii Play (with remote) * Wii Fit (with balance board) * Guitar Hero 3: Legends of Rock (with guitar) As you can see smash is out selling Wii play and Wii fit. I think it is around 6 million copies now. Mario kart is not fare behind. Now if you have those two games above I'm sure your still playing them. About the only thing I could see people still playing on the HD consoles is COD4 which I have on the PC the better version. So you are failing to pigeon hole Wii owners. NMH would not have sold on the HD console either. If you remember killer 7 came out on the PS2 also no one bought it. You can find am equal to Zaki and wiki on the HD consoles and that did not sale either. Also too hardly any shovel ware makes it on the chart. The Wii is there for every one to play because of price and the type of games it even allows to be made. The crying about nintendo making hardcore games is a fanboy trying to make up a weakness. Nintendo is only there to keep the shovel ware off the nest selling list and 3rd parties are free to do what ever they can get past the ratings boards. This is a made up problem similar to people being racist. It's nintendo then it's kiddy.... no it's for every one... kids don't play Wii fit or brain train. Kids do play boring clone FPS because the toys in them look good.
"Wii * Super Smash Bros. Brawl * Mario Kart (with wheel) * Wii Play (with remote) * Wii Fit (with balance board) * Guitar Hero 3: Legends of Rock (with guitar) As you can see smash is out selling Wii play and Wii fit. I think it is around 6 million copies now. Mario kart is not fare behind" Would you mind linking me to your source on that? The most up-to-date numbers I've been able to find are on Wikipedia, which seems to be as of June of 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... "Wii Play (11.51 million) Mario Kart Wii (6.42 million) Super Mario Galaxy (6.1 million Super Smash Bros. Brawl (5.633 million approximately: 3.539 million in US, 213,000 in UK, 1,681,000 in Japan 200,000 in Canada) Wii Fit (5.27 million approximately: 3.42 million from April to June 2008, 1.85 million prior to April 2008)"
I didn't say any were better than Nintendo first party titles, that's debatable. But Sony has Resistance, Uncharted, Warhawk, Heavenly Sword, Motorstorm, Gran Turismo 5: P, Ratchet and Clank: FTD, Wipeout HD, Siren Blood Curse, and Folklore. And 6 of the 11 games I listed are new IP's where Nintendo uses it's same old stuff. Not to mention all the games coming out before the years end. Resistance 2, Motorstorm: PR, Socom: C, and Little Big Planet. And based off Nintendo's list it would be fair for me to add all these PSN titles too Super Stardust HD, Pixel Junk Eden, Pixel Junk Monsters, Pixel Junk Racers, Everyday Shooter, The Last Guy, and Calling All Cars. Sony has all of these good games and if you include 3rd party which we should then the PS3 clearly beats the Wii in terms of having a better selection of games to choose from. You may not want to hear it but it's the truth. Nintendo needs to create more studios or buy more developers with all the money they are making off the Wii and that's that.