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PS4 Pro Upscaled & Xbox Scorpio Native 4K Difference Won't Be Noticeable To Untrained Eye:RIME Dev

There's an argument to be made that Sony really cheaped out with the PlayStation 4 Pro, their 'premium' high end PS4 system, that is meant to be a more powerful iteration on the base PS4 hardware. While the omission of the UHD disc drive has been well covered by now, there is also the simple fact of the matter that the PS4 Pro is simply far too weak to manage native 4K rendering.

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Neonridr650d ago

I would say it would depend on how the assets and textures are built.

Unspoken650d ago

Just like it was hard to notice the difference between 900p and 1080p. Gamers could see b the difference, some just didn't care.

darthv72650d ago

They didnt care because they figured it wasn't worth caring about. That and maybe they grew up appreciating games for their fun and not their resolution.

Fatal-Aim650d ago (Edited 650d ago )

It was obvious Microsoft pushed the Scorpio to late next year to make sure it was powerful enough to support VR and not 4K. They wanted fans to think it was 4K so it wouldn't looked like they were reacting to Sony's PS VR strategy. If it takes a beefed up PC to run them, most certainly an Xbox launching this year wouldn't be capable of supporting the Rift and Vive headsets, let alone 4K. Hell, all of the games won't even be 4K even on the Scorpio. 4K just happen to be achieved when they boosted the specs in order to run the headsets, and now that is being used as a marketing pitch to the media to divert from the fact that they are having to react to Sony's every move. Microsoft were simply out-maneuvered and out-gunned.

I wanna know where the big bets on Hololens and Kinect went while they were so against Sony's VR strategy. It seems they may not feel that way anymore.

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ULTp0ltergeist650d ago

I wish we had these sentiments from devs earlier, but hey at least the bias is obvious.

DarXyde650d ago

I think this is different. The resolution difference will be pretty apparent, I think.

Even if Pro upscaled from 1440p to 4K, that would be the same difference between 720p and 1080p (literally. Look into that). I'd imagine that, if you can see the difference between 720p upscaled to 1080p and native 1080p, you'll see it with 4K.

I think it'll have that "softer" appearance that we saw with Quantum Break. But, to give Sony the benefit of the doubt, I hear their upscaler is quite remarkable.

Time will tell, I suppose.

Lilrizky650d ago

Yeah if you were a true graphics monger then you'd put your faith in fidelity and not resolution.

I dont rate the game but Ryse: Son of Rome was the prettiest title at launch and that ran at 900p. Quantum break looked great too and 720 or something

freshslicepizza650d ago

if you have a 4k tv then you are likely to care more.

LastCenturyRob650d ago

720p to1080p? yes, definitely some difference (still not awful in most cases though)...900p to 1080p?...not so much, at least not enough to make a big issue out of...unless they were fanboy trolls.

sd11650d ago

The thing with 900p upscaled vs 1080p is if you jump from 1 to the other you cant tell a difference. But if you put them side by side and do an analysis you can start to pick out the differences. You don't play games side by side like this so it therefore makes little difference, even though it is there.

raztad650d ago

The higher the pixel density the harder to spot differences between resolutions. if 900p to 1080p is not that easy to tell apart when playing on a TV set, 2160p upscaled (using checkboard technique) to 4K is going to be a lot harder to notice. DF said they were very impressed with the Image Quality of the games they saw in action. That said, native 4k is a huge waste of resources if you think about it, a Doom developer said as much:
http://gamingbolt.com/nativ...

1080p/1440p / 60 fps, better textures, draw distances, physics, would be a much better use of the 'mythical' scorpio power. Same thing for PRO, I want to get more than just downsampling (better AA) in future games.

indysurfn650d ago (Edited 650d ago )

Lets face it, we ALL care about graphics it is the reason that people want a next generation every generation. It is the reason that the same people look down on wii, and wiiu. If I could get 1080p at 60fps OR instead get 4k at 30fps 9 times out of time I'm taking 4k at 30fps! You can take the 1080p 60fps. Of course it depends on the game. If it is something like a turn based jrpg, a real time strategy, a platformer or a first person shooter story mode I take the 4k if it is destiny or multi player I'm taking the 60fps! But that's just me, feed my big expensive 4k tv please :)

raztad650d ago

@indys

Graphics is much more than just resolution. Take the time to check link I posted. The devel says that Reconstruction techniques (like th one used by the Pro) is the way to go to do better looking 4k. Think about it, the computational resources saved using reconstruction can be spent in more effects, postprocessing or better shadows.

Nathan_Hale53650d ago

Darxyde

720p and 1080p was a very noticable jump but 1080p to 4k isn't. Not on a tv about 40' or so. On a larger screen definitely. Only noticable thing is the masssiveee performance hit as it renders 6220800 pixels more from 1080 to 4k vs 1152000 pixels more from 720p to 1080p. Personally, I wish 2k tv's were a thing as the difference looks great from 1080p to 2k, while the perf hit isn't even close to as bad as 1080p to 4k.

kevnb649d ago

i think its very easy to tell between 900p and 1080p, but it depends on the size of the screen and viewing distance.

Teh_Leviathan649d ago (Edited 649d ago )

@Fatal-Aim

All of what you said gave me cancer.

A lot of it isn't even true. Microsoft came out in front of the PS4 Pro announcement and announced Scorpio, so how the hell is that "reacting?"

Kingthrash360649d ago

We.
Know.
Nothing.
About.
The.
Scorpio.
Don't know why we keep on doing comparisons on something we haven't seen running 4k. Also it will be impossible to compare if only 1st party games are going to be 4k.

ABizzel1649d ago

The difference between 900p and 1080p isn't great, and the vast majority of gamers can't see it unless side by side stills are on display and zoomed in from Digital Foundry.

It will be the same between upscaled 4K on PS4 Pro, and Native 4K on XBO Scorpio (which honestly will likely have some games upscaled as well, just less than the Pro). At worst PS4 Pro games will look every so slightly softer.

+ Show (14) more repliesLast reply 649d ago
Bolts650d ago

This right here. Texture resolution is the real difference maker. It's what separate console and PC.

donthate650d ago

Exactly, and that is what will show up in comparisons too.

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snoopgg649d ago

Sony doesn't have to worry about comparisons, launching a year if not more earlier then scorpio. There will be no competition with the pro for a year at least. That's plenty of time for Sony to secure even a bigger lead in the console race. I don't have a ps4 yet, but am picking up a pro when it releases.

DeeBeers650d ago

I would say that the tables have turned in an unmistakably ironic fashuon!

Eonjay650d ago

Nope. Its really hard to tell. Especially with Sony's new upscalling tech. Differences will be hard to see resolution wise. Now if developers do things like better textures or more alpha effects thats one thing but the resolution difference is not perceivable If DF can't tell by looking at it with their eyes... neither can we.

DeeBeers650d ago

" Its really hard to tell. Especially with Sony's new upscalling tech. Differences will be hard to see resolution wise"

It's as though you went as far out of your way as possible to help me confirm that the tables have turned in the most ironic way that is humanly possible. I dare say we make a great team, you and I.

Eonjay650d ago

We make a spectacular team!

Salooh650d ago (Edited 650d ago )

That would be true if we knew how developers will use scorpio. No one knows how they handle the pro let a lone scorpio. If anything, Pro will get more support and nail this concept far more earlier than scorpio because of this gap.

Secondly, pro is releasing this year. We will play the equivalent to 900p vs 1080p. That's really cool when you look at the price and release date and how sony look at it as the same gen meaning they are not expecting everyone to upgrade, it is only for those who want it. That's a great deal and very fair for ps4 owners too. Pro sales will count as a normal ps4.

Scorpio approach is different with exclusives going to pc and with "beyond gen" mentality, price is unknown and even if it is 400$ at release date pro will be cheaper by than.

MS is fixing their mistakes. Scorpio is an attempt to fix their foundation in gaming, i am glad that they are recovering. It is a good thing but i hope that you see this because if you really think that scorpio is in a better position over playstation than you are only fooling your self.

I for one love their approach, going full support for pc is very nice for gamers, i hope they focus on games, also make a proper team to make their app in pc more friendly, it is annoying as hell. Will be playing gears 4 in 2k ultra setting, much better experience over any xbox xP .

andrewsquall649d ago

Yep, look at all the native 4K games announced for Scorpio so far and out in the next month too. The tables sure have turned lol. Oh wait, no, we are still here in the "its 1 year away to be making MASSIVE assumptions" argument.

But then maybe they are right, PS4 was always able to use that 40% power and extra next gen GDDR5 over Xbone to either put out absolutely stunning PS4 games that put any Xbone game to shame or easily hit that standard, 2006 TV, 1080p resolution. That's about the same difference in GPU power between Scorpio and PS4 except PS4 already uses next gen GDDR5 since 2013.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 649d ago
rainslacker650d ago

Untrained eye will probably think the upscaled image looks better because it will have more graphical detail to make it look better, while the 4K native image won't be able to do as much due to having to render more pixels.

When the GPU's can do 4K native at the same graphical settings as it can now be done in 1080, it will be noticeable, but not so much over upscaled images that people are going to go crazy for it.

Granted, fan boys will obviously be able to see every difference, because that's what they do...obsess over things no one else notices.

donthate650d ago

If that was the case, then devs will just do what the PS4 Pro does with Scorpio, and then increase the frame rate and add higher resolution texture. Can you see and feel that?

rainslacker650d ago (Edited 650d ago )

@donthate

Quite possible. And yes, I can see that. Even posited that myself on several occasions, particularly before these consoles were announced and everyone was saying definitively how things would go down and 4K was going to become the standard. Quite often...like in almost every article in fact. Yet people disagreed with me, and no one listened, and some even went on to try and tell me how I was wrong.

But the topic of discussion isn't really about how the devs will utilize the tech, rather if the untrained eye can tell the difference, to which I say they probably can't, but they can tell the difference between a high quality image, and a lower quality image, regardless of resolution. This is also something I've been saying for some time, and a lot of people who want to believe disagree with me, without ever considering if I"m actually right. In fact, you're the first devout xbox fan I've seen who even showed that it may be a consideration.

But, if that's what the devs will do, why are so many people making such a big deal about the resolution differences? And if that's what they end up doing, won't it make all this bickering and assertions about how native 4K will matter and make a huge difference completely meaningless now?

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650d ago
rainslacker650d ago

@megatron

No, that's not like what I'm saying at all. If a 4K native image could have the same or better picture quality, then it will have a better image. But, if you have a 1080 super high quality transfer of Transformers that is upscaled to 4K, compared to a ripped streamed version that is native 4K with lower picture quality, the 1080 upscaled image will appear better and be more satisfying to most.

You missed the point, and made some logically flawed comparison to try and discount what I'm saying.

@bg

The developers themselves never made it a gold standard. They simply responded to people's desire for higher resolution. The fan boys made it into a gold standard without understanding how resolution plays a part in the overall picture quality, and they made it into the one and only defining standard on what constitutes picture quality.

Now that we're at a point where the differences in image quality can be seen due to the power constraints of the upcoming systems, and the marketing of these systems making it into such a big deal, people are going to finally see what is more important.

No amount of fan boy back and forth can change facts. A high quality image upscaled will look better than a native 4K lower quality image. Until native 4K can be rendered at the same image quality, it will not look as good.

The devs will make their games based on what gets them the best looking game, because a good looking game will sell more than a 4K native game because 4K isn't adopted enough to spend that much time focusing on to appease the small percentage of people that own the proper equipment to display it. And no amount of fan boy bickering will change that either.

People can believe what they want. Just like they've believed every other amazing thing supposedly coming this gen which has failed to be delivered or even be shown close to being what these console makers hype them up to be. They can disagree with me all they want. They can scream till they're blue in the face that I'm wrong, and try to make me seem like an idiot. It won't change what's to come, and their counter arguments have yet to be informed or constructive enough for me to consider what they have to say to be anywhere close to something worth considering. I have seen the results myself. I work with this stuff every day. I've tested my theories and actual practical implementation of what I speak of. And the conclusions were what I already state. People's feelings on it on forums can't change actual research and tests on the matter.

I do respect your response though. It is logical and well thought out, if not stretching it a bit too far on who's to blame.:)

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 650d ago
zidane1341650d ago

The hyperbole some of these replies are saying is just crazy.

XanderZane650d ago (Edited 650d ago )

No one was saying that about XB1 1080P upscaled games compared to PS4 native 1080P. Everyone said there were huge difference, so I'd expect the same will be said when comparing the Scorpio's native 4K games to PS4 Pro's upscaled 4K games.

"However, José Herráez, who handles PR for Tequila Softworks, the folks behind the upcoming RIME and The Sexy Brutale, feels that while the difference exists, and while the more discerning and informed eye will be able to perceive it, to the untrained, mass market customer, it will hardly matter."

This same thing was being said about XB1 games being upscaled from 900P to 1080P, yet everyone every fanboy swore they could see huge differences. So no doubt the same will happen with PS4 Pro and Scorpio. There will obviously be differences. They've already compared the PC version to the PS4 Pro and there were definitely some differences.

rainslacker649d ago

That's because X1's upscaled games didn't have better picture quality. They were lower quality, that was then upscaled. There's a difference this time, because with the way the power is likely to be used, the image quality will be better on the PS4P, because you can't run ultra level settings at 4K on 6TFlops.

Something I posted down the thread, which no one cared to answer.

Lets say the PS4P takes 3TFlops(shooting low) to render a 1080 image at ultra settings which will make your eyes melt and jaw detach from your skull as it makes it's way to the floor. If we assume that graphics rendering power works on a linear scale, then how is the Scorpio going to manage those same effects on 6Tflops with 4X the number of pixels?

I won't really get into what the fan boys say. I wasn't one that really got into the resolution debates, other than to say there were times one could see the difference, but I thought people were overstating the effects.

Yes, there will be some differences, and it will affect certain things in the scene.

I'm just saying that the lower quality 4K image won't look as good as the more robust higher effects added 1080/1440/1800 image, and when upscaled, the differences are going to be pretty marginal, and IMO mostly unnoticeable to the untrained eye. Probably be practically non-existent in motion.

I will concede though, that at times, some things will stand out...like potential pixel crawl on AA lines, which would be less apparent on a 4K image.

But I do agree, the fan boys will definately make it into a bigger deal than it is. They're did it before, they are doing it now, and they will certainly do it in the future. However, I feel the discussion is about the general masses, and not the nitpickers who can see things because they scope out such things, or just make stuff up, for these kinds of debates.

GrontB650d ago

Just have this conversation with a buddy yesterday. It's all about texture packs now. Upscaled 4k on ps4 pro and native 4k on the Scorpio won't show much difference when all is said and done, it will depend if the developer puts in better texture packs for the Scorpio, and maybe ps4 pro, to use.

TheCommentator649d ago

Tomb Raider on Pro is apparently using XB1 assets, at least accordingto some articles, but compares poorly to the PC in 4K regardless. It's too early to say if this will be normal of checkerboard rendering in general though.

+ Show (5) more repliesLast reply 649d ago
650d ago Replies(8)
OB1Biker650d ago

Yep. In the mean time you can count on sites like gambolt to go on and on with their dev says baits. Their sarcastic bias is obvious in the intro paragraph.

DJustinUNCHAIND650d ago

Or not see, in the case of the hypocrite.

Red_Renegade650d ago

or suddenly see, in the case of other hypocrites.

raztad649d ago (Edited 649d ago )

WRONG REPLY. DISMISS

game4funz649d ago (Edited 649d ago )

Haha the never ending fanboy cycle...
Suddenly some will see a difference when they didn't before and others won't see a difference when they did before.

Hence why games matter and not graphics.

On the upside happy to see the Xbox base not baiting too much in this comment section.

Princess_Pilfer650d ago

No we won't. People have native 4k PCs right now, and we have plenty of gameplay footage and screenshots from the PS4 pro. The difference is immediate and obvious. It makes everything slightly blurry (most easily spotted around hard edges) and screws with particle effects. The particle effects stuff isn't noticable sometimes, but whenever you're dealing with clusters of them in close proximity (like showers of sparks) you're looking at noticable blurring

Ju650d ago

Ya, sure. Can I have something what you take there?

Princess_Pilfer650d ago

!) Dismissing an argument without providing logic or proof is not how you get your point across.

2) DF (that is digital foundry, google the video if you haven't already seen it) has already done a very detailed comparison where they explicitly state (with video and photo evidence) that this is the case, and having seen it, I can tell you that it is *immediately* obvious. I didn't say it was a major make or break deal or that the upscaling looked like garbage, that would be lying, but it is still obvious to anyone who knows what native 4k actually looks like.

Your turn sweetheart. Where is your evidence?

raztad649d ago

@Forum

Well people playing on PCs have their monitors right on the face, so non native resolutions are easy to spot.

DF hands on with the PRO was very positive about the reconstruction technique I think, wasnt it?

Princess_Pilfer649d ago

I play on a TV from over 8 feet away. It's *still* obvious.

They were. The upscaling is still far better than traditional upscaling. That really doesn't change that it's still an obvious difference.

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 649d ago
Bahamut649d ago

I don't even care about the resolution bump, I just want better framerates! Can't wait.

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 649d ago
ape007650d ago (Edited 650d ago )

LOL!! Nah man, It'll be a BIG difference

Rimeskeem650d ago

It'll also be a big price difference.

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DeadlyOreo650d ago

Halidgf doesn't think it's going to cost a lot. Lol oh dear.

Angeljuice650d ago (Edited 650d ago )

@Halidgf

What damage limitation? The Scorpio hasn't been seen yet, it could be a total turd (like the X1).

Also, the plural of sheep is sheep, there is no such word as "sheeps".

bleedsoe9mm650d ago

@DeadlyOreo he's just listening to phil spencer , not unlike any console price you've seen . so this idea or wish that scorpio is going to be super expensive has been put to bed .

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 649d ago
S2Killinit650d ago

Small bump over Pro. Pro will be a larger leap over whats available right now.

Kribwalker650d ago

Just like the PS4 is a small bump over the Xbox one? You do realize the power of the Scorpio is like having a PS4 pro and regular PS4 combined, that's way more then a small bump

S2Killinit650d ago (Edited 650d ago )

Yes exactly. The same way PS4 is an xbox and half. You need to realize that if you want a big bump in power you should immidiately buy a Pro because it delivers a big bump in power over whats available currently. AND you will also have VR capabilities to go along with the great first party support. Then in a years time you will be better positioned to decide if the small bump in power to scorpio is worth it OR you should wait for another big bump to PS5 (depending on whether a window for its release is announced or not by that time).

Why deprive yourself for a whole year, of both the games and VR? I like to enjoy my time gaming.

uptownsoul650d ago

@Kribwalker

The PS4's small bump over XB1 made the difference between a lot of games being 1080p vs 900p. If the difference between Scorpio vs Pro is only Native 4K vs Upscaled 4K then that is far less noticeable than 1080p vs 900p

Unspoken650d ago

But you can have a better experience with games AND vr on PC, with more options and you can still play MS exclusives. No need to waste money on the Pro.

Aenea650d ago (Edited 650d ago )

@Kribwalker

When you use those extra 1.8Tflops for 4k then it is a small bump, yes...

4k means 4 times the number of pixels to be rendered than with 1080p. Therefor 1.8Tflops difference for 4k is the same difference as 1.8 / 4 = 0.45Tflops for 1080p content.

0.45Tflops difference for 1080p content equates visually to 1.8Tflops for 2160p (4k) content.

Which is about the same as the difference between the X1 and PS4, except in reverse. How much of a difference do you say that is visually, hmm?

Neonridr650d ago

@uptownsoul - that will only depend on what the resolution is being upscaled from. I mean the difference between 1440 - 2160 is a lot bigger than 900 - 1080 in terms of pixel count.

KiwiViper85650d ago

But whats a large bump for, if it's not hitting the next evolution in tv resolution?

PS4 does 1080p just fine, and justifies a 1080p tv... If pro can't make it to native 4k, then whats the point?

They don't make 1440p tv's afaik, and if they do, what other reason is there for owning one.

PS4pro UPSCALES to 4K, so soes the XB1s...

Ju650d ago (Edited 650d ago )

@Aenea True percentage wise. But also we will have 4x the pixel density and hence the question remains, if the effect will be the same. I doubt it will be at that high of a resolution.

Also, Kiwi, the Pro doesn't typically scale from 1440p (which is 2560x1440) but from 3840x1800 which is "just" 1M pixels below 4k, but 5M pixels beyond 1920x1080.

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TKCMuzzer650d ago

What ever extra power is available will be used to run the games at native 4k. There won't be a lot left to improve graphical effects etc, it will just be about resolution. There are more powerful PC's on the market than Scorpio that struggle to run native 4K.
Yes Scorpio will run 4K, I doubt at 60 FPS ( I can see a lot of back tracking in the next 12 months up to launch) on most games and there won't be a lot left for extras. This is the problem if we all go chasing resolution, something else suffers in the process and that will be extra graphical effects. I would rather have 1080p and they up the graphical effects in games.
As for this, mine is bigger than yours resolution crap, I don't care as I only have a 1080p which is three years old and I'm not keen to fork out another £800 on a decent 4K HDR tv, not until we are guaranteed 4K 60FPS and that my friends, will be the next generation of consoles, not these mid gen machines.

Ju650d ago (Edited 650d ago )

That's exactly the point. Scorpio will run everything the Pro at 3840x1800 at full 3840x2160. The _same_ contents, the same framerate; Or - it runs the same 1800 lines with more detail? Doubtful. Or it runs the same 1800 lines wit 3-5fps more (that is instead of 50fps dips we'll see 55fps dips). That's all that % gap in TF gives you. So the question still remains: Yes, if it's the same price it'll be the definitely better machine. But if the $-gap is $100? Then what?

And true, 4K will give you a smoother image compared to current 1080p. But this probaby won't be enough. The other question is, if it will actually allow for more (poly) detail (at least in the main characters/close ups). Especially the higher pixelcount will cry for smother polys. But if the GPU is now too busy to just render more pixels, what's the point? Well, sure, less jaggies. But that's probably not enough if faces look flat.

I am still excited and want to see for myself. I can't yet grasp we'll have a real 4K machine out in a month. Quite surprised and looking forward to it. Nobody can really say until we have these boxes in the living room. I'm curious about how it'll "feel" and what others will report once it'll be out.

Nathan_Hale53650d ago

@uptownsoul. You are correct. As long as the upscale tech is good in both the PS4 and TV, then it will be very hard to notice. Diminishing returns really starts past 1080p.

Nathan_Hale53650d ago

Neonridr

"I mean the difference between 1440 - 2160 is a lot bigger than 900 - 1080 in terms of pixel count." Yeah but actually seeing it is much different. The pixel density will be very high and the law of diminishing returns, especially between 2k and 4k is very high. Physically seeing it will be hard to tell while performance will suffer big time.