GGG writes about why Dean Hall's offer of barely $23k to game developers to work at his studio is insulting to all game makers, especially in light of the passing of Nintendo's Satoru Iwata.
Please read this mods: I keep getting an error about sockets when I try to attach an image, that's why there is no image attached.
Ah, Dean Hall, the guy who can't even complete a game that he's sold to millions before buggerin' off to start something else. Can't wait to see what other unfinished products he can try to sell us.
Mentioning Iwata in the article is insulting. No relevance, just trying to stir the pot.
Agreed. Bad "journalism" there. No denying that.
Yeah, it's so insulting.... Or you could just choose to not work there? Or not accept the job offer for $23k? You know, when a position is offered to you, you are not forced to accept their offer. Find a job with what you consider fair market value... But this guy offering $23k a year for a job isn't really news worthy in my opinion. eith a title of "disgusting" I was expecting something a little different than this...
This is standard practice in Software Development. Native talent is expensive, so many companies offset it by bringing in foreign workers who work at a fraction of that. Their Visa means they are indentured and can't easily change jobs, etc. So I wouldn't be quick to call him scum for having to do what everyone else does to stay competitive.
Agreed. My huge issue with this article is that it doesn't seem the author actually knows that this is how game development works. Gaming is contracted out... "I understand game development is a business but this is downright shady. He’s basically looking to pay his new hires 1/3rd the wage they should be paid" I...I really don't think you do understand it then.. It has nothing to do with "should be paid" you either agree to work there......or you don't. He is hiring for a job, a task etc he has zero ode to some how pay enough to have their families live on, I'm sorry but that is a real choice, its not this mandatory thing, when I go to get someone to paint some rooms for me, I'm sorry why should I start paying them this huge sum to feed their "families" when it has nothing to do with me? ...I have a job that needs to get done, will pay this amount, take it or leave it, thats it....its business. I would assume of someone didn't like the small pay, they would not be seeking to work on a contract bases in the first place, they work in the gaming industry, they very much know what they are getting into. Also what does Iwata have to do with this? Stop trying to make this into some emotional, ethical, empathy type BS as that has ZERO PLACE in BUSINESS AT ALL!!! You don't ask someone to do a task for you because they have family and you like them emotionally, you do based on they are able to do the work. I've rejected life long friends that did bad business based on it was a representation of myself, thus....I could not recommend them, I ended up using someone else I didn't even personally like as a referral based on as much as I hated them......they got the job done and folks loved em, but hey, this is only business. Leave your personal emotions at the door.
I agree, very well put. It's this whole "millenial" mindset, that the world and all its money should just be handed to them. And any low paying job is beneath them and "wrong", as if they should get to determine how much their boss or owner of the company should be able to afford. If you don't like it, try running a company and try to pay your employees all the money they desire and then share your opinion... You won't be in business very long.
You people are so touchy and emotional. It's also obvious you didn't read the article, because the author made the mentioning of Satoru pretty clear in his reference. Also, the author never even implied that this is about a moral issue. As for why you got so many agrees when you clearly didn't bother to read this post with an unbiased mindset, just goes to show how so many people on N4G have no understanding of objective reasoning.
Doesn't make it any less right when your intention is to sell the product/game you're making in the same market. Stand to make far more money than you're shortchanging your workers much less consumers. This is literally how the industry got into the state its in with examples like many COD releases, most of EA and now WB with Batman on PC. Engineering things to only make profits while short-cutting past the bone.
Ok... I don't know the NZ economy so I can't say one way or another "how" shady his offering is but I find the article trying to compare him to Iwata a bit irrelevant. Nintendo is a giant company and Iwata had made a truck load of money over the years leading up to him reducing his salary. His move to reduce his salary was partly about saving some development jobs but also about gaining a vote of confidence back from investors because at the time he was up to his neck in hot water over under performance. Its just not a good apple to apple comparison.
I feel like bringing up Iwata unnecessarily just to make a point is worse.
23k for a software engineer required to work ~3000hr years? They'd make considerably more money working full time @ McDonald's.
They could, but why would they want to? Would you want to hire someone to help you design a game that only cared about money? Your getting paid to do your dream job, its contracted so you'll move on to other work afterwards. They don't need to work there for life, they don't even need to renew contracts. This is a stepping stone for them and they can seek better work based on this experience.
Firstly, there's a difference between working in your field of expertise, and doing your dream job. Exactly 0 computer scientists/software engineers dream of getting underpaid/exploited to script someone else's dream. Secondly, having such a raw deal almost guarantees the contractees to seek employment elsewhere upon the termination/end of their contract, which is really another point against this deal. Job hunting is hard work, and is extremely stressful, and anyone in their right mind would avoid having to go through it. So not only is this offer laughable on a monetary level, it's also technically a very poor career choice, as you're almost certain to have to look for work again once it's over. Which is going to be that much harder considering you were able to save exactly 0$ because of the unsustainable salary you've received for this contract!
It is rather on the low side, but who knows, for someone just starting out and wanting to get a foot in the game dev. door it might be interesting, but such a person would be wise to keep looking for another job straight away.
Outside of job co-op, and on rare occasions internships, 23K is not really a pay worth doing. If it's a single job contract...ie, not for a year but until you get your job done, that pay can be OK if you can get it done quickly...but things like that are rare in the game industry. There is nothing wrong with contracting itself. In general, contracts actually pay more, however, the contractee has to pay their own taxes, doesn't get benefits, and as you say, has to find another job after the contract is up...which isn't as hard as it sounds in the game industry. It benefits the company, because they don't have to pay benefits, pay their share of taxes or unemployment, or maintain a staff during slow times. Dream job or not, there is really no reason why an experienced dev would accept such a low wage when the median salary of a game developer is around the 75-80K/yr mark. Don't think it's up to the author here to decide if that's insulting or not. Anyone going for the job has the choice to take the job, or to not take the job. If the dayz creator needs a good programmer to finish a job, and he can't find one at that price, then he'll have to up the price. Simple as that. I've been offered low pay before in numerous jobs throughout the years, some meaning promotion and whatnot. If the pay wasn't acceptable, i just declined, gave my reasons, and moved on. Never felt insulted, because I never took it personally. The article mentions this is for "new graduates", so this would mean internships or entry level stuff. These guys aren't likely to be doing the really hard stuff...I know I didn't. I was making 32K right of school. With the experience I got from that job, and spending a lot of my own time getting in good with the experienced programmers and learning a lot of stuff that wasn't my job, I went on to be making 50K in 6 months at the next company, then I went into contract work where I was making 100K/yr, and now I have a full time position with benefits for around 75K. Many game design graduates don't get that lucky, and struggle in the game testing department, ytpically as contract empliyees for years until they finally get a lucky break. Many of them give up before they ever get their dream job.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Some people would gladly work a less desirable job for more money if they couldn't find work. In your above comment you said leave your emotions at the door, yet you're using the "dream job" theory in this post to validate your argument. It's nonsense. You don't seem to understand what an economy is.
@Live- ", there's a difference between working in your field of expertise, and doing your dream job." I know bud, do they not have to start some where? They still need experience and I'd rather work getting experience then working flipping burgers for more money. It might seem like less money to the untrained eye but that person is investing in their future. You might see McDonalds as paying for if working full time......ok. Sooooo in the next 4 years while working full time, how would that actually help them obtain their dream job? Doing the contracted gaming job even at low pay again is a worthy job, it might be low, but its a start to a promising future. The contacts they will make will open the door for them to go to other publishers, studios etc, they might also make life long friends that they might end up opening their own studio together, again....they have to start somewhere. "Exactly 0 computer scientists/software engineers dream of getting underpaid/exploited to script someone else's dream" yes...bud "dream of getting" let them "dream" of not getting that, but its the reality of the industry if they want real experience that will inevitably help their future work. Do you think I dreamed of working at Home Depot for 3 years? Do you think I dreamed of living in my parents house deep into my 20's? Yet those choices are why I'm debt free, own 2 proprieties and do pretty good in real estate listings in my city. You may dream of a big home and a successful career, but you must wake up to reality to get to that "dream", I could care less how many of them don't want to do that type of work in the beginning but everyone must start somewhere. "So not only is this offer laughable on a monetary level, it's also technically a very poor career choice, as you're almost certain to have to look for work again once it's over" Yet gaming has been contracted since its infancy.... Yet we exist lol. That is how gaming is bud, don't you get that after a game is done lots of staff are let go as they are hired game per game? Lots of developers work this way, but that is their choice to, down the line with enough contacts and experience they can go into development solo. I feel that is such a moot point lol, yes..contracted jobs mean they will always have to look for work.....I worked contracted as a Real estate listing agent...I make more then both my parents combine and I often work less then them. (Mind you, 3 closings this year have made me more money then I've ever made in a year at any job in my life, I used that money to pay my folk's mortgage off too) It sucks not being in work sometimes, but when your making more then most, you just have to budget accordingly. Mind you, I wasn't even making anything like 23k at Home Depot. (Home Depot was sort of a start with me as many of my clients where old customers at Home Depot that always recognized me lol so in some respect, that boring Home Depot job, got me like 4 listings before from home owners I used to help out while working their)
@Jack- If its their dream job, then the low entry pay for the experience is worth it. Who said they have to stay there? "Some people would gladly work a less desirable job for more money if they couldn't find work" I feel sorry for them, they need not waste their time with gaming then...got work at McDonalds full time.. At some point you have to realize that working for low pay on such a project will open doors that will lead to more money then any damn McDonalds job is going to pay. You need to really get that they are investing in their own future. If you can't see the benefit to working on a such a contract early in ones gaming career, you don't really need to worry yourself about business, you simply just don't get it.. 23k today could be 100k tomorrow, but the 100k job expects that you have experience.... If I was hiring for a huge AAA game and some kid just came out of a university and wanted the job, I would give the contract to a more seasoned developer...thats it, its just the way it is. Its new kid vs seasoned developer. New kid needs to get seasoned.....thus before they apply for that 100k job, get some work in. I don't get how many gamers don't really get this, I would never hire that way, I'm not sure why anyone publisher or developer would. Again...leave your emotions at the door, this is simply about business, I feel sorry for those that have families and need the money, they just need to stick to their guns and get that experience in so one day they can land that huge project and become one of the vets. and fyi I would never hire anyone that was just in it for the money, I'm hiring of passion and real talent, not the dude that has bills to pay and this is just another check to him...would you want that dude working on your game knowing they are just in it until the clock runs out?
If developers don't want to work for that it's not like anyone is forcing them to take the job. He's offering this to new graduates so if anything it might be a decent way for someone to get some work experience?
Seems like it's a paid internship. Many students work unpaid internships(or ones with really low stipends) to get the experience and connections that are absolutely vital to getting the job that actually does pay well. This whole thing with the actual studio seems to be a problem between them and the NZ government, which may have it's own laws in regards to wages...like minimum wage or something. Most new graduates could probably make that at any developer, but they will also be game testers, and will have contracts that last 4-12 months depending on the game, and they'll only make that much if they end up working lots of overtime during crunch time. I've been there, while in school, and I can say it's not a fun life knowing I can make more delivering pizzas, or having been at a job which paid over 100K a year before I decided on a career change to go after my dream job and actually enjoy the work I do.
How is this worthy of an article?? If a job doesn't pay enough for you, then don't take it.
Right, I'd much rather read another shady article on DX12; or better yet, a sales report... /s
I don't want any of them..
What a disgusting title for a disgusting article. Click bait trash and the cheek to add Satoru Iwata's name in there. Disgusting!
I dont like Dean Hall the guy has a God complex and worst off all he havent finnish the work on DayZ and its already asking people to donate for the next game.All the promises he made for DayZ end up been lies and BS talk;dont trust this guy!
it's all based on demand. if he gets lots of applicants then the salary is likely justified. if nobody applies then he should pay more.
Is that even minimum wage?
It's roughly $1900/month($480 a week) before taxes. Hourly if he worked 40 hours a week that's about $12(and we all know developers generally work far more than 40 hours without compensation). IMO, the article is shit, but being paid that little is an absolute joke. My first job out of highschool paid more hourly(about 4 years ago). I earn about 3x that much outside of my job via investment opportunities alone. My job pays twice as much (this is without a college/university education as of yet) Reality is game development is a fairly new field of work because of that there are MANY loopholes around screwing over non-ceo/cfo employees. I don't envy developers at all.
When I was at Electronic Arts for 3 years...Jr. positions ( new graduates)starts in a least $50k/year. But it make sense for the area because cost of living is high. I know many people in the game industry and know that other states do pay less because of cost of living is lower. I do agree though that the wage indicated int eh article is definitely not competitive.
Well, there are many devs out there not being paid anything and being hired just so they could get experience. This is from a studio with a big game, but it's not a big studio and the money being made for it isn't quite showing at the moment, since it is a new studio he is making. There is just so many questions the Author of this article does not have the answer to... or even ask. Like what benefits the job will have? Is there a chance for a longer contract? Will the wage be higher after awhile? There's just so much unanswered or even asked that this article should not have been made till some questions have been asked.
behind the sleeper hit that..... was really boring and that no one cares about. dean will leave the company and create more stuff... that will be garbage
N4g's disgusting way to promote a article using Mr IWATA death insults all gamers.
Hell I was expecting to see a salary offer of $10,000 not 23k
I dont like the Iwata name drop , but saying this is the way it is and that is ok is also bothersome. If we want to change things we can if we spend our money on items/games that support their employees fairly . It takes effort but it can be done.
That does seem extremely low although I don't know the averages in New Zealand. Unfortunately this is one of the industries where people will allow themselves to be exploited in order to break into the industry. In the end this just hurts everyone looking for a game dev job. I wonder how quickly these guys will burn out.
Tracking for later.
i gotta say given how much work it appears they do on day z i would take 23k a year to do nothing of any importance...but maybe throw in a new gun or an island or a few copy pasted houses here and there... nothing of any significance has been done to day z IMO ... still hackers, still horrid desync, still cant pick up items, still always spawn and die on the coast if you cant find food or gear from someone else... its a joke
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