Marcin Iwinski of CD Projekt RED claims that visual downgrades in games are inevitable due to the 'nature of games development'.
yeah say that to Sucker Punch, Evolution or Guerrilla you CDPR noobs! still The witcher III game looks great.
lol, infamous 3 is nothing compared to the witcher 3. Driveclub? Shadowfall? Notice how those games aren't great games?
sounds like someone never played those games
Terrible; Bad; Okay; Good; Great; Excellent All of those games you listed are great games. Not excellent, but great. Your comment is a lie!
"aren't great games." WHO? according to you? wtf?
I've played all of those games. None of them are that great barring Infamous.
Okay, so I'd say KZ is "good", but DriveClub is a great, fun, beautifully rendered, addictive, competitive online racer.
Havnt played driveclub but shadowfall and infamous are decent games, I definitely wouldn't call them great or amazing. They're not even the best of the franchise.
His point is none of those games suffered downgrades. They all improved visually up until release.
I tend to agree. Ive played those games and Infamous was repetitive and got boring. Driveclub whilst visually very nice it lacked content and KZ was just flat out boring. just my opinion on these games if people have different opinions that's cool
The Witcher III is a phenomenal title. However downgrades are not inevitable when you practice honesty from the first reveal. Rendering so called gameplay on systems beyond the specs of 99% of the gamers and/or the inability to properly prototype your game leads to downgrades. It is one or the other. Or both. The trend lately is undeniable. Intentional deception, and sometimes the development teams are ordered to do this by those holding the purse strings, designed to generate pre-orders. Or else it is ineptitude on the part of developers incapable of setting realistic goals. From the numbers of instances we have seen lately I believe it to be the latter more often than not. As I have stated in the past the publishers are quite obviously aware that unrealistic reveals generate preorders and the backlash from downgrades leads to a very minimal and acceptable number of cancelations. In short they do it because it is profitable and the majority of fans will let them get away with it. Either way acting as if fans just need to live with it is scapegoating and a transparent attempt to place the responsibility other than where it belongs. For someone in the development/publishing chain to make that statement is dishonest. It doesn't matter that you love the game or that it turned out great. Lying is lying no matter the source or their record of achievement. Anyone that doesn't think a game can move up continually rather than down should catch up on the Hellblade development video series.
The downgrade issue has nothing to do with how fun a game is. It's graphics only. I stand by an earlier statement of mine in which I said that most games become downgraded in one sense or another simply because of trying to fit it into a specified package size.
I can't lie, I laughed at Chuk5.Thats a solid argument.. about as solid as water soaked toilet paper. @morganfell A wip doesn't always mean the final product will look better.It has nothing to do with being honest, its the nature of the beast.I understand you completely.But you have very little knowledge on game development.. compared to game developers.So being mad over hypothetical situations you came up with as to why something isn't done the way you think it should be done is stupid to be frank.I will never understand why people work themselves up on stuff like that.If theres anything to be frustrated about, its the lack of an explanation from developers explaining these "downgrades". edit I just read the article, and he said basically what I said lol.If you want closer to final product visuals in trailers and teasers then that means not announcing games until they are near complete, which I have no problem with, however, telling developers to guesstimate or use weaker hardware to get an more vaguely presentation of the final product is unrealistic and could be counter productive. Putting myself in a game developers shoes, I would show the product off early.Because I would be so excited, and want to show off my work.But unfortunately there are cynical people that don't know how to be flexible, and think that bending even a little shows weakness, showing off games earlier will become less of a norm. Just another case of not being able to please everyone I guess.
Dee, you know nothing of my experience or anyone else's for that matter. Making that sort of statement is little more than arrogance. You read something with which you did not agree and rather than attempt to use facts or logic, neither of which support your case, you instead make remarks about the person that posted rather than what they posted. Adolescent tactics at best and failing ones at that. Where am I mad? If someone states something that doesn't worship a developer it doesn't make them mad, merely observant. It also means they may not have drank the kool aid Mr Jones. I will never understand how people like you work themselves up because someone posts remarks concerning a game and its development process and in doing so paint a less than stellar picture of said game and process. I do not understand why you are so upset. See what I did there? See how ridiculous your remarks sound when I was laughing and wringing out a bottle of 1800 when I made that post? To paraphrase Harry Truman, "When I see an animal that looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I call that animal a duck." Whe I see the same instance occurring time and again I make a logical deduction, not one composed of teenagfe wishes and fairy dust. In this case I made a either/or deduction of scxenarios that fit the facts. I look at matters as they are in the real world where greed and incompetence operate. The thing that is frustrated are the sheeple that stick their head in the sand and pretend these are mere accidents or part of the development process. And as I said, watch Hellblade shown honestly and how the game can only get better and better.
Hmm maybe you couldn't tell, but I don't care about what you posted, but your reasoning for posting.I'm not about to get into a pissing match of hypothetical things developers should be doing, that's pointless. So you are saying you know just as much about game development as a game developer? Oh wow, you don't find that often here on N4G /s Where are you mad? You're disgruntled that these developers don't do things the way you think they should. Thats a very specific thing you think people work themselves up over.. seems like you just came up with that. No I don't see what you did there, considering people on gaming sites guess what game developers do then get mad at those guesses quite often,soo no.. maybe that bit went over your head. You make logical deductions based off your knowledge..Not actual facts.Thats my point.Get the facts, then get mad.Thats all i'm saying. My logical deduction after seeing it happen time and time again is that it's a part of the development process.Who knows maybe I should be mad, I don't have the facts yet though.You call it sheep, I call it a different perspective. Pessimist think they are realist.
Maybe you couldn't tell but you care. You have responded twice. That is caring. No matter what you say your actions define you otherwise. Go ahead and care again. I have time. And too late. Instead of discussing matters with a degree of rationality, you decided to make this about people instead of issues. Everyone is mad mad mad, right? You did that and such an action is pissing. I am saying you have no idea who here has been involved in developmental work. You do know what they say about assumption, right? I guess it is fitting this article relates to the Witcher as you believ yourself to be some sort of mage or diviner. Presumption is at best rife with pitfalls and that is the path upon which you have placed yourself. It is also a bit mystifying why you think anyone critical of developer actions, particularly those intended to decieve the public, must be mad, angry, disgruntled and raving at the walls. Your defense of the issue at hand, one that focuses on the character of those with whom you debate, rather than the issues is a failed one and laughable did it not fly in the face of the obvious. It is the last line of defense, throw intellect to the wind and call everyone mad. My logical deductions are based off the facts. They are the fact of actions conducted repeatedly by develpers and publishers. You wish to ignore the piling evidence. That is a mistake. There is a reason the articles on this issue are accumulatiing at a geometric rate. Ignoring the truth and its evidence is no way to approach the issue. We have the facts of conduct and we have a very easy solution employed by other development teams - show your prototyped game running on realistic hardware or in the case of console titles - running on the actual development kits or debug units. Simple. Plenty of developers do this but there are an increasing number that choose not to act likewise. Hence, downgradegate. Yet there are persons like yourself who believe whatever developers and publishers tell you. And of course it is a statement that dances away from the easy solution, leaves them unscathed and places the blame of misunderstanding upon every single consumer that calls such actions to light. So by all means, keep pissing. I am happy to expend the the rest of my bubbles pointing out the fallacy of belief in the infallibility of developers, particularly when the facts are glaring. The Witcher III is a wonderful title, my favorite of the year. But that doesn't alter attention to the obvious.
.. You don't quite understand context do you? I specifically said I care, I never said a majority of the stuff you think I said, at least in the context you've placed it... you took literally everything I've said above and beyond its context, just to make some irrelevant point. Try re-reading what I typed without the emotions involved.
Maybe you do not understand the context of what you posted. When you reply to what I posted then you care about what I posted. When your remarks are to the reasoning of what I said rather than why I said them then you care what I posted. And honestly that is the truth. Your last remarks fly in the face of everything you have written here. So please, continue to "not care". You have 5 more bubbles to not care at which time I will most wickedly close out this exchange. The only person here that has become emotional is yourself. You are the one that has resorted to adolescent assessments instead of attempting to discuss the issues at hand. What an odd manner in which to view the world. Everyone is mad or angry by your deductions. Erred deductions but yours nonetheless. You remark on other's lack of temper yet your words reveal you to be the one that has chosen to operate outside the bounds of reason. Pot, meet kettle. As I have stated, injecting the personal into matters is the sure sign of one that cannot control their anger. This is all machts nichts as it alters not one iota the facts of the matter nor the modus operandi of deceptive publishers willing to decieve the public at large in order to drive sales.
oh wow, so now I don't understand what I, myself typed.. "When your remarks are to the reasoning of what I said rather than why I said them then you care what I posted." I care about why you posted it.. As I stated, not sure what the point of this is. "So please, continue to "not care"." ...But I specifically said I care..As I stated, not sure what the point of this is. "The only person here that has become emotional is yourself. You are the one that has resorted to adolescent assessments instead of attempting to discuss the issues at hand." I don't want to discuss the issues at hand, because I don't believe there to be an issue. Adolescent assessments, because I said you don't know what goes on in developmental process.. which for some reason you think I do.. then you, yourself proceeded to say exactly that? "Everyone is mad or angry by your deductions." Do you know what synonyms are? Are you happy and satisfied with the process in which you think the game was developed? Clearly you are not.Therefore you are in some way of the term , angry.You put mad in the context of meaning raging, when in the context I used it, it simply meant not pleased.Because you are emotional. " As I have stated, injecting the personal into matters is the sure sign of one that cannot control their anger. " Well thats a very universal fact because the great morganfell said so right? Who the hell cares about context of the situation? /s The whole point of my original comment was to say you don't know what happens during development and its stupid to get mad over your assumptions.But you made it into something completely different because you either don't understand context, or just felt like arguing on the internet.. Adolescent at best.
Retract that ignorant comment!
Exclusives have zero to do with multiplatform practices. This isn't about what consoles can do, it's about what 5 and 6tflops beasts machines can do. There is no doubt a console can produce an experience of it's own.
Yeah all the hubdreds of trees swaying with dynamic wind in infamous looked amazing! Good character models is what infamous had. I want to see a game as huge as tge witcher with infamous graphics. Sony gamers still act like devs need to get used to x86 lol
Don't forget the animations. Infamous SS I think has the smoothest animations of any game I've played.
Notice how Sony fanboys come running to these types of articles as though the PS4 has dual Titans and a bazillion gb ram and the best cpu money can buy. It's a frickin $400 limited console people...that's all it is. And like someone else posted here......none of the PS4 games you listed come anywhere close to the quality of game Witcher 3 is so quit your crying already.
yea, but guerilla lied about res.....
No they didn't. They said the game is 1080p. I don't think they ever said native. It's a technique called temproal reproduction.
Wow Skate you have really drank the kool-aid, good job on the defense. Keep fighting the good fight.
Guerilla also pulled that whole KZ2 cinematic trailer bs back in the early days of the PS3
Agreed by mistake. Those games are nowhere near the size of the Witcher 3.
SuckerPunch made Infamous Second Son which is a ghost town of a game and little to no enemies on screen. Not a good game unless you have low standards. Evolution, makers of DriveClub, a circuit racer stuck in 30fps, little to no cars, only cosmetic damage, no tuning or mechanical adjustments and allows only 50 members in the "club". Terrible game only liked by those with low standards. Guerrilla, makers of Killzone, where the ONLY good Killzone was Killzone 2 and that was more hype than anything. Another shooter trying to be a Halo killer but continues to fall flat on its face. Sony has given us poor games this gen thus far.
Uh oh this won't end well will it? That's seems silly to say tho why not shoot for what you think u can achieve then show it off, tho I'm no dev so I can't say how the process goes
That's precisely what they did with the vertical slice. Show off a what they thought they could do before all the parts came together. Then the parts came together in an actual game and it didn't work anymore. When you think about visual downgrades it's normally the open-world games that get hit hardest, and that makes sense given that they have the most moving parts.
Lol, people are seriously disagreeing with you? That's exactly what happened. It's not like they didn't try hard enough. Bottom line is, they either had to cut back on graphics or cut back on content. I'm much happier with a cut back on graphics. Especially when the game looks beautiful anyway.
The issue isn't power, it is time/money. Witcher 4 will look better than Witcher 3 on all systems guaranteed.
There probably won't be a Witcher 4. Unless they change their minds.
CDPR have turned around and basically said "we downgraded because of consoles." The downgrade is ENTIRELY because of consoles, end of story. They lack the power.
If the wouldn't had said its gameplay and it won't be a downgrade, admitted short comings it would of been OK. Gamers don't care but no matter who you are you are going to care if a company try to treat you like your an idiot. At least put a target or inegine disclaimer on the video y'all claimed was real game play. How many times Sony got bashed for this last gen?
its probably due to optimisation and not really knowing how powerful Ultra gaming PC's will be at time of release. I am guessing that footage from few years ago would have everything scripted, so that more power can be used on real-time effects such as lighting, shadows etc... the footage is also probably played realtime so it was prerecorded so that they can push out 60+fps footage.
There has been no downgrade! Downgrades are inevitable! Yeah, I remember grinding my feet on Eddie's couch.
cocaine's a hell of a drug
Omg hahaha. Although I love CD Project and give them some slack with it, this comment made my day. Oh Dave, still miss him.
Lol, one of my favorite Chappell skits.
It's a classic, black magic darkness!
They used fallacies when they said there was no downgrade. They refer to "downgrade" as optimization, but clearly they knew what everyone was talking about when they lowered and reduced the original look of the game to something that looks barely above a last gen PC game. I don't have a problem with the butchered settings, but if I still have to buy 2 $1000 GPUs to run the thing at ultra then you know somethings wrong. Optimization is god awful
Mods tho :D I'm waiting until a steam sale (I split it with my girlfriend on PSN so $35<$62.99 CAD) to get it on PC and by that time the game will look even more gorgeous, and although its not a graphically realistic game, the art style is very beautiful and its no doubt a huge game and a diamond in the rough in terms of AAA multiplatform games. The scope of the game is huge, but I'm sure optimization will improve over time. In the end it will be revered as a masterpiece, just as the first two, which were also very poorly optimized and very glitchy at launch.
Weird. Witcher 2 was never downgraded from it's in game trailers in 2010 to its final release in 2011 and it was never released on 360 in the same time frame. Now imagine if the Witcher 2 would of had a PC release alongside the 360 and PS3 "at the same time". So to that end. We only see downgrades on Multiplatform games because of their console counterparts. If the Witcher 3 had of been PC exclusive it would have looked like that footage in 2013 on RELEASE DAY.
And it wouldnt have existed as it does today. CDPR needed the sales of consoles to get the funding to do a giant game.
Honestly i have a hard time believing them, a few years ago they said The Witcher 2 almost didn't happen because of a failed console Witcher game took up most of their budget/funds but they were still able to put out one of the best looking games with quite a bit of content. http://www.pcgamer.com/the-... Fact is they said not too long ago that there was no downgrade and kept saying Ultra PC footage hadn't been shown yet and wanted to keep it a surprise, now that its out the difference between high and ultra is minimal. "It’s not even on the highest settings, we’re saving this for when you buy the game – we want you to get a bit of a slap across the face, that’s when you see the highest" http://www.worldsfactory.ne...
It was a slap in the face alright, a slap in the face to the fan base that got them pass the witcher 1. They have contradicted themselves across the board. They are just as bad as ubisoft was with the flip flopping. Wasn't ubisoft damn near burned at the stake for say they are going for parity between ps4 and xbone. Funny how thing change no one bat an eye on this website I guess its because xbone is on 1080p and xb fans finally got PS fanboys off their back
TW2 had considerably fewer moving parts. Smaller, less complex areas with fewer concurrent operations happening under the hood. The game didn't work as an actual game once they put it together as it was more complex in reality and cuts needed to be somewhere. CDPR have said this themselves, it wasn't an issue over technical grunt, but the game simply not working (as in literally not functioning as intended). A downgrade never happened because no version of TW3 that looked like the vertical slice ever existed as a cohesive game in the first place (something which CDPR communicated poorly). It's got nothing to do with the game being multiplat, simply that the bigger more complex games tend to be multiplat to offset development costs. It's that complexity that causes what we see as a "downgrade". Sorry bro, but the only way TW3 was going to look like the original footage was if the scale was similar to TW1/2 with a similar level of simulation complexity.
"...Due to the nature of console game deveopment." There, fixed that for you.
CDPR probably should take notes from Naughty Dog....for them the downgrade dont exist....only evolution !!!
All of Naughty Dog's games from Uncharted on have been downgraded if you compare the initial reveal to the finished product.
@Drasill False, been through this too many times to even argue it, but whatever let's you sleep at night, bruh. @fdkenzo Remember that's 1 platform development. So you're basically saying that it should have been a PC exclusive, because just as Naughty Dog has only ever developed on PlayStation and is talented in making games on their preferred platform, so had CD projekt before TW3. Personally I believe trends show that multiplatform development is more profitable, otherwise the biggest publishers would be exclusive only. Its a big step to take, and I think comparing two great developers like that when they're in entirely different situations is completely ridiculous. -Open world/linear games -At least double the development time if not more for naughty dog to use due to exclusivity (but I must admit they're fast and effective as is) -published/independent
So if downgrades are inevitable, then why advertise the game to be more than what it's not going to be? The reason people are getting upset with downgrades, is because they are getting mislead with these trailers, bullshots, and in-game footage nonsense. Now the truth comes out and are we suppose to be sympathetic or something? Wow okay. THEN STOP PUTTING YOURSELF IN A POSITION WHERE WE SUSPECT YOU OF DOWNGRADING A GAME. I better not see this with Cyberpunk 2077.
Awesome game CDPR! Sorry people can't differentiate between vision and reality and don't understand the process of game development.
It's not the process of game development that's the problem, it's the false advertising and enticement in the beginning then getting something else. I say just release footage from something that made it to the final game and none of this would be an issue.
People want to see footage but the game doesn't get optimized until the last few weeks. Maybe they shouldn't show footage until it's released.
Hey! Worked for GTA 4 Nothing but like 2-4 pictures until release haha
https://youtu.be/ElVhWP8sOH... Till we can get games to play like this on all systems, am going to be content with whats available till. then
The stupidity of fanboys have normalised downgrades by claiming it's something that has always happened. Then giving developers a free pass because we should be grateful were given the opportunity to buy these games in the first place. In reality it's happened rarely in the past & now it's normal to happen for every single release. The people who give downgrades a pass are the same people who destroyed the industry with the transformation of expansion packs into "DLC" & season passes. No mentality to understand the future progression of the acceptance of these decisions & no spine either!
Councils never had expansions it was only pc. Does that make it right to charge no but at least they get dlc now.. Fyi it's cell phone games that brought accross micro transactions with their ftp model. business is business, maybe everything should be free in this world! Maybe when my car needs an oil change it should be free because I bought it with oil in it. Maybe my food should be free because if I don't eat I'll die. Maybe my kid should get free collage when he's older... Maybe if you don't want it or don't like it you should put your wallet away and stop crying..
perhaps you should read my comment again until you've understood it before going off on a rediculously childish & irrelevant rant..
I read your comment and comprehended rather well. My childish rant as you called it is a direct response to your childish entitlement. I said it was only pc that had expansions. It was councils that brought on dlc yes. However for your sake I'll be more articulate and educated in this response. People like to get paid for their hard work and corperations like to make money so there for they've started charging for the extras. It's a natural progression of all commerce throughout history. The more sophisticated the games get the more time and money that gets spent on the expansions/dlc. There for the inherent necessity to start charging for them. Now microtransactions I am against. Is that better sir?
you make it sound like developers purposely downgrade games just to screw over customers.
No, it's not simply because it has always happened that makes it ok, it's because any rational, intelligent person understands that games in development are always subject to change. There's no way around it. The only thing developers could do to guarantee no changes occur that may be seen as "downgrades" would be to wait until the game is finished before they show it. But gamers would not like that (I know I sure as hell wouldn't like it) and it would be very bad for developers who need to get the word out about their games. I prefer the way things are now. Developers show what they are working on and we recognize that its just a WIP build that is subject to change.
Or they could finish the game then advertise it for the following 4-6 months. Hell they delay games almost a year later anyway right? What's a few months? Stop with the nonsense apologies like they don't have time! lol
It would be great if a lot of these corporate companies just be honest about their work. There would be a lot less com complaint about. Downgrade is inevitable? Come on, do we really believe in that? If they would make the same came with the same graphical features it would still work on most powerful computers if properly optimized. The remaining pcs and consoles would just have to run great on High settings. Also, by making this for consoles, they will make more money sure and I agree that all witcher games should be also made for consoles, but they were doing fine before with just the pc platform. They just should have proceeded with developing the games taking into consideration that the pc could handle much more, but I do believe that great games should be released to all platforms always. Anyway, my main issue is that they are still not being honest and just giving excuses.