During the on going live stream of the Windows 10 event, Phil Spencer took stage to talk about Microsoft's upcoming graphics API, DirectX 12.
Finally, my GTX970's in SLI will finally get used properly! @slappy508 below Hopefully, My old games run perfectly in 4K, but some of the new ones do struggle a wee bit.
I've also got 970 slis. I wonder if dx12 makes it more possible to run more games at 4k?
On PC. and same figure they announced when they first announced DX12. And when they said it the first time. It was for PC too. Not sure why and how X1 is even mentioned in the article. But great news for PC gamers.
It won't. The CPU isn't the bottleneck at 4k.
@thepope You don't even get what is going on do you ?
This will help PC about as much as MANTLE did this is like MS version of MANTLE. Imagine it like that. Something consoles already has..
but console already has low level api
@Kumomeme- This really doesn't matter as far as bringing it closer to the metal. It's about efficiency, and proper core usage. No matter how close to the metal the console was prior it still dumped the entire workload onto a single core. This changes that. I imagine that DX12 would have worked wonders for a game like Unity.
@Gamer1982 and @Kumomeme you both I assume don't understand what the change with DX12 vs DX11 really is. This API is not about programing to the metal (low level API), but rather how the CPU communicates to the GPU. Traditional API even low level is still limited to only use 1 core of CPU to talk to 1 GPU core, but DX12 allows multiple CPU cores to talk to multiple GPU cores at the same time. This is still essentially at the same level API as DX11, but you can just ride on more lanes. I hope that makes some sense, and this will help out the X1 significantly as the CPU used now allows for 100% at the same time of 7 out 8 cpu cores (well 6.5 cores to be exact). If you ever watch a DX12 cpu load bench you will see all cores are running at the same load level. Thanks, Happy Gaming Guys/Gals.
There wasnt much difference between DX10 and 11, so hopefully 12 will be a big leap.
But according to Phil Spencer a maximum 50% performance gain will be seen with Directx 12. Less than a year ago we were discussing about 2 times the performance (100% more). Here is a n4g article in which 414 comments were posted. http://n4g.com/news/1487593... So I will say to wait a proper comparison because the percentage could change.
No it wont, this is just PR marketing hype it is never that big usually hardly noticeable. This is my gripe with PC gaming. The hardware never gets fully utilized until like 3 generations after. As badly utilized as Crysis was atleast it moved the industry forward and for years was the standard. Now a days PC games look marginally better than console games so whats the point of a 4, 5 or $600 GPU? I'm still running a 670SC which i upgraded from a 570 because of battlefield and am waiting on a valid reason to upgrade again. It's been years
The 670 was under $400, it's only 2 1/2 years old, and it still is more powerful then either console. I don't get your argument. You say you are waiting for a valid reason to upgrade, and said it's been years, but 2 1/2 years isn't long at all, and there are a ton of ways you aren't capturing the best quality of the game. Simply put 1080p is not the max for PC games. As a GTX 970 owner from a 670, it was definitely worth it...especially with my $299 4k 39" screen, which can also do [email protected] frames per second. Though before I got that screen, getting those 30 FPS games to 60 with higher fidelity was worth it. Now that I can do 1080p/136, 1440/80, 1800/52, 1960/43, 2160(4k)/30... the power makes even more sense. In fact we need even more, but the 970 is a beast nonetheless, and that extra power is well used. Additionally it is well known that you need higher then 1080p to really utilize the ultra textures. Even at 1080p, the 670 averages 30-60 FPS with mostly..very high setting, low level AA, etc, etc. Higher resolution, higher framerate, and even higher fidelity, that's what you get. All for about $329. It's not marginal at all. Having Battlefield 4 for both PS4 and my PC, I can honestly say, it's quite a massive difference even at 1080p. Let alone higher resolutions and framerates. Remember folks 4ktv's have been out there for $299 or LESS for the past 6 months. Even the 60hz 4k ones will be $499 or less soon. Buy a cheap one though, they still have to finalize certain settings, so they are ALL akin to buying a 1080i monitor 10+ years ago. Lots of people paid $5,000 and they can't stream 4k netflix. So either buy a cheap one and enjoy it for a few years, and THEN get another cheap one with all the new standards, or wait. But for $299, I couldn't pass up >1080p AND >60FPS.
Lol, PC gamers.... I've got one of the top 5 high-end videocards..... ... best use two! http://www.videocardbenchma...
Sorry, but if you have 970s in SLI I'm guessing you are rocking a 4 core i7. This wont help you much because your CPU has enough grunt to get it done. Just look at mantle. It only helps shitty AMD CPUs. The good news, this is what the Xone has, and is why DX 12 will give it a nice little bump. For all the Sony trolls saying the Xone already does this BS. None of the current batch of games is designed to load all 8 cores equally. That because developers are used to programming on the 360 and cell, which had 3 cores. And 1 was set aside for the system. So at most they had 1 core feeding the GPU and one doing AI. During the first year most games are cross gen, and there is no way you can make 1 version of the game load 6 cores while the other loads 2. As programmers learn to code games that can keep 6+ cores fully loaded, these consoles will benefit significantly.
DX12 as Mantle did, cuts down on CPU draw calls and lets all the cores get used. If you've ever tried running games at 120+ fps you would know you need all the CPU power you can get. People and tech noobs totallly underestimate the job of a CPU in gaming.
umm xone has like 6 and a half cores available to devs..... not 8.
Newer games will struggle with 2 very good cards at 4k, of course. You should've gone with 1440p 144hz screen if you want quality and speed. You don't go for a 4k screen not knowing what to expect, you knew what you were getting into, 1080p still needs a mid/high end card to run well so it stands to reason 4k is gonna give low fps on newer titles. 1440p is the sweet spot for speed and quality, perfect for 2 gpu's.
On PC, It usually will not be more than 5% for something like this. So I don't believe it one bit. I just think it will be easier for most developers to make great games.
Dude. No. DX12 will not be like any before it. Its basically going to mimic the way consoles do things where software Has lower access to the hardware. Skipping middle men is the best way to increase gains. Personally i can barely stand the wait to see how my 980 takes to this. If sli gains like crazy a 2nd might be in order.
Yes, this is going to be like AMD Mantle. I did some research and games do not increase by 50% in performance but, will be much better than DX11 so congrats to MS. This will be good for everybody.
Is this the case for xbox one?
No, it has been said multiple times (inclusive Phil Spencer, iirc) that this improvement numbers are for PC.
Only PC and NO Xbox One improvements?
Xbox One will get graphical improvements in terms of physics mostly but it won't increase things like frame rates as this DX is more pushed towards the skipping the software side and accessing hardware directly on PC and tablets etc.. Console already has direct access to hardware. For that reason it won't make a difference.
@Gamer1982 That is entirely inaccurate. Framerate is mainly affected by the CPU. The ability to open more than simply Core 1 or Thread 0 as the instruction starter means, you're looking at efficiency at roughly a 75% increase itself. Power is one thing, efficiency is another. DX12 won't just instantly change clock speed by itself. What it will do though, is effectively take advantage of every core the way they should be. Right now, the way multi-threading is approached, is you have the first core start every operational instruction. So once you reach the limit of the first core, the rest just sit there, practically unused. DX12 allows for more than just the first core to be an initializer. This means, Core #4 or even Core #6 could start an operation and then hand it off to another core to finish it. It means, every core can be used to begin instructions. This is literally a game changing approach to multi-threading. And any multi core processor will see the benefit. Will a PC see more than the XB1? Yes. But to say that DX12 is simply there for metal coding is nonsense. Coding to the metal is only useful for some instances, not entire frameworks or features. It's a buzzword that's thrown around to make it seem like people are pushing the system harder than it really is being pushed.
Yeah it will. X1 has a low level API however it doesn't do what DX12 is going to offer (yet) At the moment the X1 is using a modified version of DX11 which only 1 CPU core speaks to 1 GPU core at a time. DX12 will allow the X1 to have multiple cores talk to multiple GPU cores. That's going to make a huge difference, it wont change the hardware but it will allow a lot more processing power. DX12 isn't just about being a low level API.
I'd guess it's not going to be relevant for Xbox because Xbox should already be optimized to run with minimal hardware ie the system is already running close to potential especially since they used DDR3 memory. PC will benefit, but will probably be like DX11 where it takes a few years for mass adoption and where developers really start taking advantage of it
It's already been stated that even the X1 which uses DX11+ currently still is only using limited cores. Additionally DX12 will allow for better memory management and use of the microprocessors on the CUSTOM APU. When DX12 becomes available and used you WILL see what I'm talking about. Many people other than Microsoft have said it's a massive difference on both PC and Xbox.
funny how they say xbox1 will increase by 50% and by a sheer coincidence the ps4 is 50% more powerful think somebody is trying to trick people that it just as powerful because they know there losing the war
The streaming of Xbox One to Windows 10 is pretty damn cool. I can play in bed now!
Nice idea just windows 10 tablets (the decent ones at least) are too expensive.
last i checked xone doesn't have built in compression hardware for the stream.... so how well this is going to work will likely depend on amount of cpu cores devs needed to run game.
Funny .. no one believes that
He's talking about the PC. And if you don't want to believe it even after they demonstrated it plainly and clearly to show that it statistically increases performance... then you're in denial.
Its going to happen on PC,Sspencer said inumerous times. But some delusional fanboys keep trying to believe that 50% is on the xbox . @gangsta Yup you're one of those delusional fanboys, compare a pc to a console api, pcs have more bottlenecks so by using dx 12 to reduce them they can use more power. But consoles dont have those bottlenecks. It will increase performance? yes by 10% probably but its aimed for pc.
"He believes that this will lead to performance improvements up to 50% for games." Why wouldn't that game performance be held true for Xbox One games?
@gangsta Consoles already have low-level access to the hardware. They don't need software changes to help. This is why consoles are able to create great looking games without massive specs.
Here's the thing that people aren't really thinking about: Even IF it were for the Xbox One it's still going to be hardware limited. The "Max" for the PS4 and X1 are set, it's set via their hardware which software has no way of getting around. 50% more performance, but still locked to the hardware limits.. which is still lower than that of the PS4. This has been, so far, one of the worst gens when it comes to fanboys. The sooner you guys just accept that one is slightly more powerful than the other, I sooner you can just start enjoying the games. It's not the end of the world if your console of choice is a little weaker... aren't you here for the games?
@Nekroo "Yup you're one of those delusional fanboys, compare a pc to a console api," I never compared the two, and I seriously just asked an honest question. I swear this site is filled with paranoid posters. @Jeff If DX12 is used to optimize a game more efficiently than why wouldn't this benefit games for Xbox One? If engineers can optimize and get around the bottlenecks using DX12 for their games wouldn't they perform that much better on Xbox One using DX12? Does the hardware matter to have a better optimized game? And please, no million posts on why the PS4 is 50% superior, or "delusional fanboy" comments or any other put down, I am just asking an honest question(s). I swear, it amazes me how I say one thing on this site and I get immediately marked for trolling or personal attack 1 minute later, but yet I get called names daily and nothing is done.
@gangsta It really depends on how much the developer is relying on DirectX to implement their graphics engine, although DirectX also handles other things as well. If the developer uses their own API's to access the hardware, and it already did what DirectX is now going to do, then there wouldn't be that much improvement if the devs code is optimized. MS current API's with DX11.X already do this too, but I guess they aren't as good as DX12. If the developer is using the current version of DirectX that exists on X1, and then starts using DX12, then there could be a jump in performance if they take the time to optimize the code for the new API. DX12's biggest benefit for consoles is that it opens up some new channels to the CPU and GPU which could increase performance. Probably not in the tune of 50% though. That would imply that MS is increasing the available hardware given to devs by 50%, because hardware is set and API's don't magically make them more powerful. New API's can increase code performance by 50% if they are much better optimized by using less processes in the execution of that code, but a 50% increase in code performance doesn't necessarily translate an end product that is 50% better. Keep in mind that I'm over-simplifying it, as there are tons of variables that go into how code is executed. I think one good way to look at it is that modern processors, whether CPU or GPU, only execute a small number of commands. Something along the lines of 35-40(can't remember the exact number). At the basic level, all a processor does is add, subtract, and multiply. They can also do special commands like Jump or Carry can be used to help with memory management and parallel processing and stuff, and that's where DX12 probably increases performance, but the number of instructions that can be carried out per cycle will remain constant and is based on the specs of the manufacturer. What DX12 is going to allow is taking out extra processing cycles that the API adds onto the developers code so it executes faster, thus being more efficient. Some code may go up to 50%, some won't. It won't be 50% less code across the board. The idea though is that now devs can code directly to hardware instead of to a higher level API, which is what adds the extra processing cycles. In the case of the X1(or any console really), this ability is already there, so the performance gain won't be quite as significant.
@gangsta_red I understand what you're saying, but there is still a limit. That limit is hardware. You can optimized all you want but there is still a limit. Imagine your fiber wire connection and the data that gets shot through it. There is a limit to how much data can be sent, the ways to get around that you can make the pipe the data gets shot through bigger. Some how make the data smaller so that more of it can be crammed together or find a way to shoot that data down the pipe a lot faster. Here's what we know about the PS4 and X1. The amount of data that can be sent/received is set. The size of the Pipes that the data gets sent through is set (hardware) and only thing that isn't set is the density of that data (optimization). Optimization can get you pretty far, but you're still hardware limited. Games for consoles are pretty well optimized because there is set hardware that Dev's can code toward. Of course there is always room for improvement, just look at games from year 1 vs year 5. Dev's get better at optimization, new techniques are learned but no matter what they are still hardware limited. Games on PC's aren't very well optimized. Why? Because the Dev's don't have a set hardware target to hit. They have to program for a number of different configurations, GPU/CPU and a whole bunch of other stuff. They can target the highest end GPU/CPU set if they want, but what % of PC gamers have that kind of rig? Do you know how much better a game would look, like AC4, if it was optimized for the top GPU/CPU set up? It would look amazing.
@hasamalaha DX12's greatest feature isn't low level access... ...It's multi-threading. And DX12's multi-threading capabilities are in a league all by itself. The ability for the API to designate different threads as starters is an absolutely amazing innovation. The CPU currently is run off Core 1 or what is called Thread 0. That first core MUST initiate every instruction that's started. http://hothardware.com/gall... That picture shows how ridiculous the way computing is currently done. You can see with DX11, Thread 0 is being used 3x as much as any other core. That alone is ridiculously inefficient. The second part shows DX12 and how evenly distributed the cores are. It means every core is being used appropriately. THAT...is what DX12 brings to the table. Not just low level access. The approach of DX12 is to eliminate CPU bottlenecking. And it does an unbelievable job at just that.
"up to" being the operative phrasing here. And nothing here mentioned about what percentage will be applied to any specific device, only that some might see "up to" 50 percent increase in game performance. No details on the specific types of performance increases. I wouldn't get your hopes up to seeing that sort of increase on your specific console or PC.
Yep reminds me of AMD's Mantle claims.
TBH if you look at the technical side of things, it is not hard to see that DX12 will bring big gains all around. The most juicy bit being that the rendering pipeline can now be operated on by multiple threads. Will be interesting to see how / if developers take advantage of this. And then there are the more PC sided improvements like reducing the CPU cost of draw calls.
This whole DX12 thing is actually rather exciting for PC owners. It does something that was long overdue. Not all GPU's will benefit from it, so it's not an all around solution, but future DX12 GPU's should see a vast improvement in processing power, as well as less power being used to process the actual developers code than we see now. I hope it helps the X1, and would be quite giddy about it if it actually did increase the X1 performance by 50%, or even 25%, but since I actually code this kind of stuff on a daily basis I know that DX12 isn't a huge improvement except in some areas of how to handle memory and processing bandwidth.
As a fellow technical guy you may find this interesting. Especially the multithreaded optimizations coming and how big of an effect they make on the CPU in this controlled environment. Something that will be a massive improvement on both PC and Console as they are both going from one core talking to the GPU at once to each core talking to the GPU at once. https://software.intel.com/... and http://www.littletinyfrogs.... These articles talk about the improvements to multi-threaded rendering something that will benefit all DX12 devices from PC to console to tablets.
Yeah. I've been going over DX12 documents quite a bit recently for work. It's been pretty interesting stuff. That's what I was referencing in my processing bandwidth terminology above. Currently on consoles, there is more than one core "talking to the GPU at once". That's a bit of a bad way to phrase it. It's more that the processor has to wait for the cores to finish their work before offloading it to the GPU for rendering, whereas now the cores can offload individually. The GPU still has to wait for all the information it needs from the CPU though. It's an improvement in the regards that it does free up CPU time sooner, and while I haven't delved too deeply into it since it's not my main focus atm, I would assume it's possible to do renders that are not reliant on certain types of information. I don't know how long it will take for the graphics engines to get up to date with that though, and again, I'm simply assuming so I may be wrong there.
he said it mostly benefits the pc. the demo he showed was on pc as-well
Congrats MS on DX12 you win Edit @ MasterCornholio Yes PC wins because they get: 1. Blacklight Retribution 2. Contrast 3. DC Universe Online 4. DiveKick 5. Minecraft 6. Pinball Arcade 7. Super Motherload 8. Tiny Brains 9. Warframe 10. War Thunder 11. Planetside2 12 Octodad 13. Don’t starve 14. Outlast 15. Magicka 2 16. No mans Sky All these games will be streaming to x1
I agree that PC owners win big time with this. Its just like Phil said. :)
If I have to get excited about that list then I might as well throw my PC into the trash.
Why did you list all the games that appear on PC and PS4? Not to mention most of them are not even on the Xbox One. Clearly you didn't understand me. Phil mentioned that Direct X 12 would improve performance by 50% on PCs. I then said that PCs win because they get a massive performance improvement. Then you list games that both the PC and PS4 have then forget to mention that most of them are not available on the XB1. What was the point of that? Dragging a list of games into an article about performance enhancements. Did I say something that made you angry?
I think we will see a jump on the PC, that will take better use of the GPU´s that are beasts, but lets not talk about consoles... it was already explained
Love me some gpu beasts. Have a bubble.
This ad doesn't say pc either just games are up 50% xbox one just keeps getting better
lol consoles already have low level access so this wont improve the xbox one just like phil said
It said games lmao but ppl here want it to only be pc gamess smh
lol consoles already have low level access so this wont improve the xbox one just like phil said.
@Julion0715, because MS has already said that the improvements will primarily be on PC. It's not what people "want", it's reality. The One may see modest improvements, but it's not the secret sauce you wish it were. Not because I said so, but because MS said so.
@Julion0715, sorry man...I have no effing clue what you're trying to say. Write in English, please.
50% the stream started buffering when he started talking about directx12 damn thats nuts if true. 50 per cent improvement thats a huge leap in game performance.
Read the headline and almost flipped out with excitement ...only to learn this does not apply to my Xbox One ;( I know we want 50% boost benefit for both ...but I totally feel like if it was relevant to Xbox graphics wise, MS would've made it super clear to the game media. Awesome news for PC gaming though, so yup ;)
Yep im so happy that PC gamers will benefit from this immensely. Phil said before that PC gamers would benefit the most from DX12 and im glad hes right. :)
I am soo happy for PC yes PC!!! Translation:I am so happy xbone wont get any improvements :)
Getting downvotes from XBox One fanboys no doubt. Congrats on keeping your sanity and reading comprehension when 99% of XBox One fans refuse to allow the truth to ever get in the way of their directionless hype. Intelligence bubble for you, and an agree. On a happier note, it looks like that badass AR stuff might be coming to XBox One. This is shaping up to be the most awesome generation for all three consoles.