Why Are Some Gamers Opposed To Indies?

Rich Drummond of gaming Tech United writes:

"In the past few years, I’ve really grown to love indie games. The stories are great, the ideas are fun and the low price of them also doesn’t hurt. This year in particular, one could make the case that some of the year’s best games are that of the small budget or indie sort. The question though, is why don’t some gamers play indie games, or respect them as actual games? Let’s take a look!"

[-Foxtrot]

I like them, I do but if I had the choice between an Indie and a retail AAA game I'd always choose the later.

I think it's mostly to do with not having much free time in my life, not enough hours in the day so instead of wasting my free time on a small indie games which I might not like or get much from I'd rather enjoy a full on blockbuster game that I like the look of, so I can really sink my teeth into it.

That's not to say you can't do this with Indie games but it's not very likely. They are usually pretty short.

I mean I started Far Cry 4 when it came out and I'm still roaming around now, I even started playing the Kingdom Hearts Remix HD games and I'm getting really involved in that.

[NinjaRichParty]

I can see from that standpoint. If your time is crunched then decisions have to be made, but I'm focusing more on those who come out and say "I don't play indies," or look down on them as a whole. :)

[Ezz2013]

we should all support those indie developers
the more money they get the better game we get
some of them make games that are as fun as AAA games
i would take a great indie game over crappy AAA game
it's not about Indie or AAA
it's about if the game is good or not

also fun fact as i hear
Naughty Dog was Indie developer at first
and look at them now

[DarkAstronaut]

@ezz

Naughty Dog did start as indie developers.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/w...

"Naughty Dog, Inc. (known as Jam Software before renaming in 1989[2][3]) is an American video game developer based in Santa Monica, California.[5] Founded by Andy Gavin and Jason Rubin in 1984 as an independent developer,[2] the studio was acquired by Sony Computer Entertainment in 2001."

Sony is brilliant. They're currently working with and in some cases helping fund a bunch of indie developers games. They are creating very close relationships with these developers, which will pay out in the end if they can find and acquire a few more studios like they did with Naughty Dog. Just by giving them a chance to hit the mainstream market when no one else would.

[mikeslemonade]

Most guys who speak negative about Indies haven't played them. Some of the better games every year are Indie games.

[BattleAxe]

I'm not opposed to Indie games, but when you've only got so much time or desire in a day to play video games, you tend to play the games that you look forward to the most, which are normally AAA big studio games.

There are some exceptions, but those are few and far between. The two Indie games that I am excited for however, are H-Hour: World's Elite and No Man Sky.

[freshslicepizza]

i dont believe people hate them, they just dont like seeing indie games take the place of aaa games. lots of great indie games are out there and i think thats where the real imaginative ideas come from because you dont have publishers breathing down your throat caring only about making money.

[Sashamaz]

Epic games is an indie studio, a BIG one but it still remains indie.

[PoSTedUP]

i support indies but only when the price to quality ratio is right. a lot of these games are too much money for the length. especially when i can grab a $6 ps1 game or a 10-$20 psp game with 60X the length, quality and meaning. dont get me wrong, there are some indies that are absolutely amazing and i know why they are priced at a certain range, but i only just bought dragon fantasy book I & II because they were $4 a piece, otherwise they are $10 and $15. 5 more dollars and i could have had a digital version of persona4 golden... i use to buy a lot when my money was right, now its kinda tight im in a pickel so i need quality length games at a reasonable price.

@battelaxe- big ups for H-hour.

[CYCLEGAMER]

I don't think that people hate or dislike indies...its just that they should not be the FOCUS of you new next gen console. They are a good side dish, desert, treat, but should not be the main selling point. IMO it is annoying that Sony is trying to force people to accept indies as the focus of their console, especially when Sony has made a name for themselves by historically putting out and focusing on big AAA titles. Now all of a sudden they want us to join them in the indie agenda.

Again I do not dislike indies, I actually like them, but don't try to sell me on them as if they, are worth as much as a triple A I have already enjoyed indie style games as a child, I want to see these companies push the hardware to their limits.

[DarkAstronaut]

"They are usually pretty short."

Or quite the opposite. Minecraft, Day Z, Rust, The Forest and No Man's Sky are a few great examples.

[GamingChip79]

I gotta side with you Astronaut. I think a lot of indies are more open ended than most AAA games.

[mixelon]

I've sunk so much time in minecraft, DayZ and weirdly Rogue Legacy.. most story focused AAs have their campaign then that's it (outside MP) but indies go all sorts of places with games.

[Th4Freak]

Did you notice the adverb "usually"? That means habitually indie games are short it doesn't mean that all indie games are short, the games you listed are a minority.

[thorstein]

...and Star Citizen...

[-Foxtrot]

But with some of those games they get boring after a while

I mean Minecraft for example...the updates just aren't enough

However Terraria though, they are nice and beefy which keep you going a little while longer

[freshslicepizza]

"But with some of those games they get boring after a while

I mean Minecraft for example...the updates just aren't enough"

really? you really just said that? its one of the most addictive games out there for millions of people and yet you suggest it gets boring? let me guess, now that microsoft bought it you want to make it sound boring. yeah, ok. oh, and its been out for 3 years and still going strong. you dont need updates for what is essentially an open ended lego building landscape you dont need updates to keep things interesting. the community does that all by itself.

isn't the game like $20? even if you only got 8 hours of enjoyment out of it you got your moneys worth.

terraria was also lambasted by the community because the developer wasn't supporting the game for the longest time.

[Halo2ODST2]

Minecraft does get boring +MoldyBread

[maniacmayhem]

@Fox

"However Terraria though, they are nice and beefy which keep you going a little while longer"

I am really curious how Terraria holds more of your interest than Minecraft. Just recently my son and his friend built an entire working amusement park complete with working roller coasters and I couldn't believe the work they put in on something like that.

I never played Terraria but from what I seen it looks to be a 2D Mincraft type of game. Just what updates keeps that game fresh or different?

[XboxOneX]

I have always been a big supporter of INDIE GAMES. I am glad to see games like *D4 Dark Dreams Don’t Die come free for GAMES FOR GOLD.

[FPS_D3TH]

Do you get paid by Microsoft for these posts? If not that's aad on your part lol

[lipton101]

What gets me is the cartoony-ness. I just don't dig certain art styles. Some indie games I like, like outlast, others like Dust an Elysian tale or binding of Isaac or don't starve just don't do it for me. I feel no sense of immersion from games like that, therefore, no enjoyment.

[uth11]

I was initially put off by the art style of Don't Starve. I thought it looked like a Tim Burton rip-off.
But then once I "got it"-- that game is like crack! I put more hours into that than any other PS4 title.

[PoSTedUP]

dont starve looks intriguing, i almost thought about buying it at one point. i may have to check it out now that you said, uth11.

[KwietStorm_BLM]

So is that retail game inherently a better game than an indie game? Does free time factor in when a game is just a bomb? We, as gamers, have been blindsided this entire generation so far with a lot of "AAA" retail games.

[jc12]

Im not opposed to them, but lets face it, they don't have the same resources as AAA studios.

Indie games are typically smaller in scale and ambition, and in my opinion, generally suck.

[k2d]

You would choose a poor/mediocre AAA game, over an good indie? I've weathered the storm that was 2014 of mediocre AAA games with titles like Steamworld (10+ hours), TowerFall (30+ hours) and The Binding of Isaac (60+ hours and going).

[DarkAstronaut]

Ignorance. They're just people like us who make games and are trying to break into the industry. Writing them off because of their budget is insanely disrespectful to gaming as a culture.

[NinjaRichParty]

Couldn't have put it better myself. I just can't grasp how someone can cut off their experience by not wanting to play indie or small budget games.

[ShaunCameron]

I can. Maybe they're just not interested in playing a game that look like it came out 20+ years too late.

[KwietStorm_BLM]

Pretty damn much. It's just funny that nobody complained about indies on PC. Nobody complained about indies on 360, or even when PS3 got a lot of good ones later on. But when PS4 makes an initiative out of it, indie is all of a sudden a bad word. It's disgusting when I see gamers writing off an entire "division" of the industry just because..why, exactly? They don't even have a reason. Of course there are a lot of bad indie games. There are a lot of bad, broken retail games too, especially in recent times. I look at all games just like people. There are good ones and bad ones. Doesn't matter where the hell they came from.

[Eonjay]

I just like good games. Period. I think it's important to send the message that games can still be fun without a $50 million budget which causes large companies to avoid creative risks in favor of the same yearly franchises.

Do you guys realize that Activision can't stop making COD if they wanted to? That big money yearly cash fall is all the investors care about.

[GamingChip79]

"I just like good games. Period. I think it's important to send the message that games can still be fun without a $50 million budget which causes large companies to avoid creative risks in favor of the same yearly franchises."

This this and this. You said it perfectly, Jay!

[uth11]

And that COD game (or the equivalent) has to come out every year before Christmas even if it's not ready *cough BF4, Unity*, or they will lose a ton of money.

Gamers hate that practice, but we feed it.

[rainslacker]

I enjoy a good indie game quite often, but I have to admit that I do like the experiences that AAA games deliver in story and presentation more. I've been gaming since the Atari 2600 days, and for the most part, indie games generally just use rehashed "retro" themes...outside some very obvious notable exceptions.

Some people act like all indie games are some breath of fresh air, which isn't really the case. Others act like all indies are crap mobile type games, which also isn't the case.

Anyhow, there are good or bad indie games out there, and being indie doesn't mean fresh and creative, just means low budget with a small team(outside those AAA funded indies like Insomniac).

As much fun as some of those games can be though, It's really hard for me to sit through a game without any significant story anymore, outside a couple genres like racing and shooters.

[MasterCornholio]

I pretty much have the same mentality. I really dont care if a game is AAA or Indie as long as its good and my type of game I'll play it. Indies have been making a lot of creative games recently and in my opinion they are the only ones willing to take big risks in the industry

[lemoncake]

The place where I play most of my indie games is on my ipad, most of them seem to fit so well into that market and style of play.

[jts1891]

I don't dislike Indies per se, but when I purchase a 400$ gaming console I don't do it to play games that could've been made 20 years ago from a technical standpoint. So I've gotten annoyed when Sony has pumped up hype before major gaming events like E3, only to show a bunch of Indies as if that's what we bought a PS4 for.

[pompous]

Here's the thing though, Sony has just as many exclusives on ps4 as MS has on Xbox One. It's just Sony give Indie devs the "time and day," per say, as they know MS will show some mulitplats and the multipat devs will show the rest when it comes to E3 and similar events. So they know they don't have to focus on what they know will be shown and they then can focus on indie games and 1st party games. Just remember the games we love now are being developed by devs who were once indie devs themselves or otherwise.

Also it's a given fact you, I, or anyone else didn't purchase their "next gen" consoles for games that are "20" year old, so stop acting like Sony is only hyping those type of games. All Sony is doing is trying to show that triple A games aren't the only thing available.

[90Supra]

because they're idiots...

[arbitor365]

They dont know what indie means. If someone thinks "indie = iphone games" is an uninformed moron. Look up gameplay of

Rime
The talos principle
The witness
Soma
everybody's gone to the rapture
among sleep
no man's sky
Rebel Galaxy
Abzu
The wild

These games look as good as retail games. They also look more unique and visionary than most mainstream games.

[rainslacker]

I honestly do think there needs to be a new term coined for what most people think indies are(iphone games as you say).

Indie is way too broad to classify it into it's own category. Some indies get multi-million dollar budgets and are absolutely nothing like a phone game(particularly in the ways they make money).

Nowadays, there is a whole class of indies which is exactly like the mid-tier games of the PS1/PS2 days, a class of AAA high budget games, a whole class of low budget games with tight game play, and then there are those phone type games...some of which aren't that bad.

This is really the first gen where I've seen indies come under such scrutiny. Last gen there was some squabbling over XBLA being an crapfest...undeservedly, but there were tons of well received indies.

[iceman06]

IMO, you've hit on why indies have had a revival or sorts. They are now those mid-to-low tier games of the past. With gaming budgets being so high, not every studio can afford to risk making a AAA title. However, they can risk making a mid-tier title and probably have a better chance of turning a profit and remaining in the industry. Just like any other indie scene, there is some trash. But, there are also some really talented people that deserve a chance to shine. Ultimately, that is why indies are important to the industry. They are the breeding grounds for the industries next greats.

[BillytheBarbarian]

They need some kind of quality control. Xbox live has a ton of them and maybe like %5 are worth playing.

[Spotie]

About the same as any other games, really. Lots of garbage AAA budget games out there.

This hate on indies really only came about as the PS4 was shown to have greater indie support than the XB1. Until then, Xbox fans were talking up their indies on 360, at least until they came to PS3. On PS3, we were praising thatgamecompany, Housemarque and others.

Now, though, it's rare to find an Xbox fan that still likes indies.

Edit: C'mon, maniac. Now you're saying we weren't talking up Super Stardust, pixeljunk, and anything made by thatgamecompany? That the console base that typically has broader interests didn't like any indies on PS3? You're stupid if you think the only things we were playing were the big names.

Oh, and which usual suspects? Cuz I see them- like Billy above, and MELMAN, jc12, lemoncake, jts, Lennox, Macdaddy, NO_Limit, marlinfan, Roccetarius, and OldDude- doing their best to downplay indies the exact same way Xbox fans/fanboys have been doing since about this time last year. You could try to explain it away as being their personal preference, but what kind of "gamer" disregards certain games based on their production budget?

Bottom line: it's the Xbox crowd that's largely doing it. Obviously, not EVERYONE- unlike you, I don't speak in asinine hyperboles- but it's rare to find a PS fan like Foxtrot say they don't like indies, and rarer still to see a Nintendo fan even participating in the conversation. Sure, there could also be PC fans, but... well, I'm sure I don't have to explain to you why that's not likely.

I'm also sure we don't have to go through all the articles about indies, check the comment histories of the ones that seem to have something against them, and figure out which ones are primarily Xbox fans.

You sure play dumb a lot.

[maniacmayhem]

I find it sad but not surprising that you of all people had to turn this into a MS vs Sony fanboy war. Even some of the well known suspects commenting in this article kept it civil on this fine xmas afternoon.

Actually a lot of Sony fans just started to jump on the indie games band wagon when Sony proclaimed to "<3 Indies" as a promotion for their PS4. But a lot of you dismissed them last gen and said only AAA counted.

A lot of Xbox fans supported indie games like Castle Crashers, Dishwasher Samurai and Geometry Wars which all got their big break on 360.

On PS3 you guys were praising Naughty Dog, Insomniac and Kojima. Lets not start changing the history here okay Hicken.

[gangsta_red]

I think what maniac is saying is that none of you were playing up Indies as much as you guys are claiming now. And you definitely did not give indies credit when Xbox fans were adding them to their list of 360 exclusives.

But once again you are trying to change the way history on this site actually went down, in order to suit your narrow argument in defense of Sony.

All of a sudden now you and others like to scream Xbox fans are "downplaying" indies when Sony's new PR slogan is <3 Indie, now you guys get to jump on the bandwagon and pretend that you all were on board from the beginning.

The bottom line is, the Sony crowd is hyping indies because that is what Sony told you is the new thing. But before, this was not the case, and you know this. And of course it's rare to find a sony fan like Fox say anything negative about indies because just like you, he's hopped aboard the indie hype train created by Sony for the PS4.

Should we go through all the indie articles in the past during the PS3/360 era? I'm sure most of them would be bare or even empty as NO ONE gave a crap about them as much as they do now. But NOOOOW all of a sudden you guys are on board and fully supporting them and saying that it's the Xbox crowd that's downplaying indies.

Yea, lets check the comment history and see which ones all of a sudden <3 Indies and lets figure out which ones are primarily the Sony fans.

you sure are dumb a lot.

[Darkwatchman]

People that completely dismiss indie games are just narrow minded and refuse to open their minds to different kinds of experiences.

[Fez]

Indie games can often be surprisingly amazing... Currently I can't put down the binding of Isaac rebirth and I think it could be the best game I've ever played! Also really enjoyed guacamelee and braid over most big budget titles.

Indie vs AAA doesn't make sense, it just comes down to game vs game.

[DragoonsScaleLegends]

Because there are so many bad low budget indie games and lot's are like mobile games with no real objective like flappy birds. Also lots replicate the look of classic games but are no where near as good.

[Darkwatchman]

And a lot of crappy triple A games rip off other triple A games and aren't as good. Your point?

[DragoonsScaleLegends]

There are more bad indies than good is my point. We are not talking about AAA games right now so why bring it up? There are lots of bad AAA games but so many more bad indie games. There are a few indies that are really good to me like Velocity 2X and Terraria. I would say Minecraft but I don't consider that an indie title anymore. But I have played really bad indie titles that are just too boring to play.

[Macdaddy71]

I hate indies games,..waste of time n space....I didn't give $500 n $400 for X1,Ps4 to play dumb little games,
Indies games make Sony, Ms, n other AAA game makers lazy....more so for MS n Sony...they should not include these games when they talk of games released on each console.. Let them stay on the PC,.
I know it's the way but I think I'm done buying consoles after this gen have bought EVERY console released the past 35 yrs plus...consoles going the wrong way

[uth11]

They don't make the game makers lazy. It often takes two-three years or more to produce a new AAA title. Sony and MS can't speed up that process. Instead they are giving the Indie games to help fill the gaps. If they took away the indies, there wouldn't suddenly be all these AAA titles, people would be complaining that there's nothing to play!

[pompous]

Wrong.. Indie are future triple A devs or games. Also whether you like them or not, they add to the library of games on your preferred console. Meaning that it draws more people to your console resulting in more support and/or more encouragement for consumers/devs to jump in.. WHICH EQUALS MORE GAMES AND LIFE..

[tee_bag242]

News flash!! You do realize all Indie developer mean is Independent developer!! It doesn't always mean budget.

People like you are are why games have become so formulaic and no AAA dare not take risks anymore.

[uth11]

A few different reasons I think

A lot of gamers seem to think Indies = 8-bit graphics, and 8-bit graphics = sux.

Others have limited taste in games.

Some are just stuck-in-the-mud and rail against every single new trend in the industry.

And finally, there's the console war aspect- Because one console has embraced Indies more than the other, fans of the other console use 'just plays indies' derisively.

[Jerrymonics]

uth11 agreed with you

[Hamzaali]

Nice thought

[Lennoxb63]

I like indies. But I much rather spend my time playing games that push the hardware. Playing an indie on a $400-$500 console is like going to a 5 star restaurant and ordering a grilled cheese sandwich. Even though it might be good, I don't really like to indulge in them often.

[Jerrymonics]

may be

[marlinfan10]

i just don't think the average gamer cares to play them. not everyone has 10 hrs a day to play video games so if i get on for an hr or two id much rather spend my time on a AAA game vs a indie title.

[No_Limit]

Nobody really hates Indies but they are just not their cup of tea for most people on gaming consoles...myself included.

[q8kik]

How does the game being indie equates to liking or not liking the game?

If you're saying that there's no good quality indie games then you're mistaken.

[No_Limit]

When did I say game or games? Like anything else, there are some cool Indies like Limbo, Journey and such, which is fine, but the majority of them is not even worth looking into...as I am just putting the word Indies more like a whole genre or category in general. Don't hate but it is just my opinion and if you like them, so be it but don't get so defensive when my opinion doesn't agree with yours. This is an opinion piece afterall.

[q8kik]

" but the majority of them is not even worth looking into "

I agree, and the easy solution to this problem is to read some reviews before purchasing any game.

Do that and you're golden .

[iceman06]

" but the majority of them is not even worth looking into "
That can be said for any indie scene like music or movies. But, you don't see people raging against them. They just pick and choose what fits their particular interests. In the end, game are games. Big budgets don't inherently make them better. Smaller budgets don't inherently make them worse. It's all about whether it is the type of game that you like to play AND is it fun to YOU.

[Big_Game_Hunters]

IDK, ask 90% of console gamers during the 7th gen when PC "had nothing but indie games"

[young7yang]

WHY SHOULD I CARE WHAT SOME GAMES THINK? After all if they dont like it dont buy it!

[Knightofelemia]

Just depends on the indie game and how god it is . If the game sucks I am not going to waste my cash on it.

[Roccetarius]

The majority of indie games don't appeal to me, not to mention the difference between a well funded game and not is pretty obvious. The games in general seems to lack a certain..smoothness to the aspects of a game.

With that said, sometimes indie games are great, just not as often as people spending money on every single one released is trying to convince people of.

[goldwyncq]

Some indie games are genuinely great while some are lazy, glorified flash games. It depends whether it's good or not just as with high budget games. Though I do hate the attitude that seems to put indie games as inherently superior to every AAA games out there, acting as if games like COD are the only AAA games nowadays.

[Enate]

I agree fully with this statement. I don't think anyone is automatically opposed to them. It just seems like the people who like them. Think people that don't just don't know what they are talking about. When its no different then any other game indie or not. Some people just know what they like. An as per the norm some people try todrum up a reason why someone doesn't like what they like.

I have taste like anyone else no matter how highly rated a game is. An that always plays a factor in what I play.

[slappy508]

There are certain ones I don't like, like the 8 bit graphics ones. I mean, I moved on from 2D 8bit plat formers 20 years ago, that's why I bought a PS4!! I did give the likes of Towerfall and Shovel Knight a run, but just couldn't get into it. Of course the likes of Rime, No mans Sky and the forest are totally different stories .

[GokuSolosAll]

Because some suck, but AAA suck a lot, too so dunno why they get singled out. Graphics whores are part of the problem, too. The indie scene does come off too artsy farty and douchy but just ignore it.

Some of the best games are indie now and some of the worst are AAA. That's just the current landscape.

[plmkoh]

There are two types of indies:

1. Studios that don't think like they are small devs, and program with nothing to hold them back creatively: No Man's Sky

2. Studios that creatively compromise themselves all just to pull on some nostalgic hearts strings, ambition is in the subject, not the vision: Shovel Knight

The later is more associated with 'indie' since they are released in much higher volume and flood the Crowdsourcing scene, collectively producing more media attention.

[OldDude]

It isn't that I don't like indie games, its just that 90% of them are junk. I buy consoles and build high end PC's for the AAA experience. Granted some, like Journey are fantastic but they are few and far between. People here touting indies as exclusives are just into a numbers game. I count games I can buy at retail or on Steam (yes I know Steam has indies too) as exclusives, not indies. Sony has touted them this generation as full fledged games simply to fill the gap. I didn't spend $500 on an X1 or $400 on a PS4 (prior to selling it) to play side scrolling indies with terrible graphics.

[Ulf]

I don't hate indie games -- I like the good ones, and dislike the bad ones. It's just that I find there are a LOT more bad indie games than good ones, relative to their pricetag.

$15 vs $40-$60 for a professionally made game, is mighty steep for many indie titles, most of which are garage titles largely akin to $0.99 - $2.99 iStore apps. TBH, if you divide the pricetag by the number of devs on indie games, vs pro games, you get a LOT more hard work for your money out of the pro stuff. Doesn't that seem kinda backwards? I understand the "mass quantities" economy concepts -- but it still seems really wrong -- most indies are just not worth the money. They just can't reach the critical mass of hard work to make for something worthwhile, except on rare occasions.

Gamers hate expensive garbage, not indie titles, per se.

[ScorpiusX]

I like some indies and some I don't.
I use them às time fillers while I await bigger franchise AAA to be released.

[EmperorDalek]

At the Game Awards I was constantly going: "God not more indie crap". They usually suck.

[Dowie]

I love my Indie games and fully support them but I do worry sometimes that we're getting over saturated with them. Its sad to see so many great indie games lost amongst endless shovelware.

I'm also worried that AAA games start to get left out. With the success of so many indie games companies like sony just throw about 20 indie games at us and about 1 or 2 AAA games. I mean look at there most recent press conferences, they showed off loads of games but 90% of them were indie.

[Revengeance]

Some are ignorant and like to generalize ALL indies as crap. I'm glad I opened my mind so I can experience great indies like:

Bastion
Transistor
Sound Shapes
Journey

And I'll be playing many more, because I like great games regardless if it's indie or AAA.

[SolidDuck]

Because most of them are 2d side scrollers. I have zero interest in 2d side scrolling games.

[Devil1870]

I don't like indie games because I dont like playing games that looks like something from gameboy. Nothing against gameboy, it was awesome at the time.
"Hurr durr muh unique game" stfu your game is a unique piece of shit.

[JMyers]

Because of ignorance and naivety. Many triple A developers started as Indie. ND and Bungie to name a few big ones. Some of these Indies are so original in terms of story telling and gameplay. It also allows risky and new ideas on a smaller, less risky scale. Look at The Banner Saga, Ether One, Never Alone, Thomas was Alone, Retro City Rampage, Hot line Miami... All great games. Indie games.

[FPS_D3TH]

I have no problem with indies. Just don't have time to play them. I also wish Sony would stop giving me free games of them and invest that money back into better server stability. It's truly getting annoying to be paying for a service that hardly delivers.

I should note ps4 is my only Sony product so I'm not getting its full value but that really shouldn't matter.

[assdan]

I play good games. I don't care if it's indie, AAA, or anything in between.