Mel Kirk, the Vice President of Publishing over at Zen Studios, the folks that brought you Pinball FX 2 on the Xbox One recently mentioned that the Xbox One's eSRAM caused no issues when they were developing their game.
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that depending on how demanding your game is on the console will or won't pose challenges in regards to utilizing eSRAM. My guess is that Pinball FX 2 isn't particularly demanding, so there may not be any bottlenecking that could potentially show up with a more CPU/GPU intensive game... especially when trying to render at 1080p.
people really disagree with this
Man...got to love gamingbolt.com. It just never ends.
Lol.... obviously those disagreeing believe the games zen make are on par with ryse......lol
Ha, of course there wouldn't be any problems with pinball. You know developers had to work with the awful CELL architecture on the PS3 last Gen, I'm sure esRAM has its challenges but it'll be quicker to master than the CELL. Xbox One still has the best looking console game ever released, and that was a launch title. It's only going to get better from here on out and now we also see the multiplatforms reaching parity with the PS4. This is going to be an epic generation, hope it tops the last generation, though its going to be hard to top what the 360 did, easily the best console I'd ever used.
Why bother? We'll just let the games speak for themselves as they have been doing so already.
Ryse is not the best looking console game, others beat it by a long shot. Get over yourself. P.T. looks WAY better, and doesn't run at 18fps.
Not to mention the fact that weaker gpu can be a bottleneck too on more demanding games
"Xbox One still has the best looking console game ever released, and that was a launch title." What's the over/under on how long this falsehood will be repeated? OT - What Neonridr said.
@mysticstrummer 2 years I'm gonna say over.
'xb1 is the best gaming platform - a guy'
Yeah, basically what you are saying. I wouldn't expect Zen Studios's Pinball FX 2 to run into any major issues to begin with.
I disagree. The problem isn't really the ESRAM, its been that 90% or more games to date have not been utilizing the full capabilities of the GPU. Think about what your asking developers you tell them only 90% of a systems power is available. That is why we've seen improvements in games like Destiny and Diablo when the new SDK has been utilized. As far as ESRAM goes when render targets are properly allocated and the ESRAM is utilized concurrently with the DDR3 can provide large bandwidth gains that can match or exceed the memory bandwidth of the PS4's GDDR5. Also one great thing about the X1s memory subsystem is that the CPU and GPU do not have to share the same memory bandwidth.
I still think down the line Xbox is gonna struggle. When new techniques are developed that require more resources. Just like devs are getting the hang of these new consoles so are they with new graphics technology. I'm sure there is still potential to be unlocked in the xbone, and lots of optimization always helps but this is still just the first year of these console cycles, yet we are already seeing limitations.
Oh my. Doctor, he's getting worse. Lol I kid, I kid. But you do realize just how incorrect you are right. You really think 10% more power pushed the x1 over the hill?.. You can put as many big words in your comment as you want, it still doesn't make any sense. The words unlocked surly tripped up a lot of people. The x1 and ps4 both will get better as devs continue to learn more about the system and come up with tricks and techniques to fully utilize each systems hardware. that said the ps4 has better hardware that can handle more. No unlock power or software will make the x1 better . both are great systems but lets not get into wishful thinking and guesswork. The fact of the matter is exactly what neon said above. Period. Destiny and cod:aw basically glimped ps4 owners as they have been downgraded so x1 and ps4 versions are the same. look at Diablo ...x1 struggling run it at1080p. Really now.
Don't you hate it when people pretend to know what they're talking about? (looking at you illusive, that paragraph had more bullshit than every farm in America combined). There is only 32mb of ESRAM. You can allocate that however you like, you still won't get more bandwidth than all 8gb at 176gbps.
As King said, both will improve, and PS4 will continue to look better...... What will not get better is the same drivel that comes out on N4G..... Almost 1 year later and we have not advanced a day....
Here is where a little common sense comes in. XB360 had 10MBs of EDRAM it did 1080p....... It's not about it being a bottleneck it's how hard it is to use the tools to take advantage of ESRAM. AS far as speed well XB1 has the advantage. PS4 GDDR5 is 176GB/s PEAK....... XB1 ESRAM is 204GB/s PEAK....... What a lot of you forget is that your render target, "The Xbox 360 was the easiest console platform to develop for, it wasn't that hard for our developers to adapt to eDRAM, but there were a number of places where we said, "Gosh, it would sure be nice if an entire render target didn't have to live in eDRAM," and so we fixed that on Xbox One where we have the ability to overflow from ESRAM into DDR3 so the ESRAM is fully integrated into our page tables and so you can kind of mix and match the ESRAM and the DDR memory as you go." ESRAM + DDR3 = 272GB/s PEAK "That's not some diagnostic or some simulation case or something like that. That is real code that is running at that bandwidth. You can add that to the external memory and say that that probably achieves in similar conditions 50-55GB/s and add those two together you're getting in the order of 200GB/s across the main memory and internally." 200GB/s..... effective bandwidth....... So as the developers get use to XB1 it will get better over time......
myth,not in real time,and we havent seen close to this happeneing in any one game... theoretical shit is and always will be pointless over real world guaranteed usage/performance....i havent heard of one dev actually say you get more real world usable bandwidth per cycle/instruction ect on the xone over the ps4......most say its around a total of a constant low 130's gb's of bandwidth when used properly ...exclusives speak for themselves when looking at ps4 over xone exclusives...from graphics to framerate,ps4 wins easily... all multi plat games look run better on ps4,and would look even better if devs werent going for near parity so the xone side dont freak out
@larrysdirtydrawss Where have you seen where developers have said, PS4's memory is FASTER than XB1? (other than the ones working with SONY) I count 0... As far as game's go XB1 first party games have shown to be superior. The hardware is doing more, AKA FMS5 (1080P 60FPS), FH2 (open world), and QB(best looking at GC), and you forgot one line that i didn't add last time, "That's not some "diagnostic or some simulation" case or something like that. That is "real code that is running" at that bandwidth" This is not from a second party like a developer it's from a first party source like FH2 FMS5 or QB (in house). "exclusives speak for themselves" first party games FH2 V.S. DC dynamic weather FH2........DC 1080p FH2........DC 30fps FH2........DC dynamic night and day FH2........DC open world FH2 (higher GPU/CPU RAM use) destructible environments elements FH2 (higher GPU/CPU RAM use) rewind FH2 (higher GPU/CPU RAM use) This is the short list. RYSE, QB and FMS5, so you are right exclusives speak for themselves. Most of you PS4 fans are fixating on what has not been said, not what is real. "@larrysdirtydrawss total of a constant low 130's gb's of bandwidth when used properly" Where have you read this? And you have forgot about the DDR3 which adds 40-50GB/s more to that 140GB/s.
@marcofdeath. Your list of proof that XB1 is better than ps4 is a bit disappointing. You make a list of features of FH2 vs DC and then claim that because FH2 is open world than XB1 is more powerful. The fact that in each of the catagories where they have the same feature, DC wipes the floor with FH2. And has no one told you that you can't simply add memory speeds together. It doesn't work that way. The slowest speed is always the bottleneck. If you have to ship memory too/from the GDDR3 Then you have Ryse - the supposedly "best looking" game with severe frame rate issues, not a good example really, and as for FH2 it's plain for everyone to see how they had to cut down the effects to get it to run at 1080p. Again, not a good example. But lets look at the here and now. With MS working with developers to reach the magical 1080p. Lets take diabolo 3. Was 720p with a locked frame rate. Now 1080p with graphical reductions compared to ps4 and an unstable frame rate. And has no one told you that you can't simply add memory speeds together. The slowest memory is always the bottleneck. If you have to ship data to/from the DDR3 then that's a massive slow down. And exactly how many xbox 360 games were actually Native 1080p. As far as I can remember all of the big cross platform franchises were all less than 720p (on both PS3 & xbox 360)
I agree. In the end it depends on how complex the graphics are in a game. A simple 2D sidescroller won't have any issues with the ESRAM but an extremely complex openworld game might. This is something developers have said many times on the past.
Pinball FX2 has no problems when it comes to top notch graphical quality and using the X1 to achieve the best greatest masterpiece you've ever seen... In PINBALL! /s These articles are getting old. Previous gen/non demanding games are going to have an easier time achieving what they want than heavily taxing ones. One dev says yes, one says no. Ok back to the games!
As an XBONE owner I also thought pinball game not gonna tax the machine to much. Don't quite understand the disagrees your getting.
I wasn't really making my statement for agrees or disagrees, so it doesn't really phase me. But obviously the whole eSRAM is going to work or not work on a case by case basis. I still think devs will figure a workaround anyways, so I don't think we will continue to hear about these stories a year or so from now.
It's called an Xbox One. Shall I start the Lamestation 4 cracks with you??
lol @ siagon.. gotta keep them hits rolling. gamingbolt/dualshockers absolutely abuse n4g
Sighs. Lol where is the powa? Are we awaiting that too? Best looking game, Ryse xone. They got the trophy to prove it. Look it up. Soooooo what good is it doing for you, except looking good on paper and the comment section on n4g? Lol when we got these systems they were already out dated. So what makes it worth having. C mon smart arses, you know the answer. Say it, say it, shoot yourself in the foot. F it ill do it. Software. Just think of that powaful ps4 with no games, aka software. What would that powa do? What would you do? I know, i know, go around talking about how much powa you got. Cant brag about what you dont got, i suppose. Just a PSA for sony fanboys, not sony fans.
ryse sucks,get over it LMAO!
Many developers who create FAR more demanding games have publicly stated that PS4 is still the harder system to develop for due to the way it uses memory as well as their API which is based on OpenGL. One developer that comes to mind is CD Projekt Red, who makes The Witcher 3. Anyone who has made PC games in the past is well versed in the use of Direct3d API, making programming for the Xbone very easy. People seem to forget that most PC game developers PAY Microsoft to use Direct3d as the games API even though they can use OpenGL free of charge. There is a good reason for this. It's because Direct3d is a more efficient API (50-100% faster in Heaven Benchmark), it's SDK and available tools are FAR superior, and it's the industry standard. If OpenGL was so good in it's current form, developers would be adopting it in droves and save the money required to use Direct3d. http://www.craveonline.com/...
They aren't saying it's objectively easier to develop Xbox One vs PS4. They are saying it's simpler for them, because of their experience. This is a developer that has never worked with a PlayStation console before, but they have worked on Microsoft machines for their entire existence. The APIs are familiar to them for Xbox One, while they are new and alien to them on PS4. That doesn't mean the PS4 is tougher, it means it's less familiar for them, so their is a learning curve involved in figuring out the new APIs. Is it easier for you to write a paper in Pig Latin or in Hungarian? Chances are, you don't know Hungarian, so you'd have a learning process where you need to get some familiarity with the language before you can write one word in it. But that doesn't mean Hungarian is "harder" than Pig Latin. For all intents and purposes, Hungarian should be "easier" than Pig Latin, because you can just "know the language" (be familiar with the grammer, syntax, and vocabulary), whereas Pig Latin requries a constant "processing" of a known language (English), by plugging the English word into an algorithm which results in the Pig Latin equivalent. That is an objectively more convoluted and difficult process than just plucking from a known language... the only difference is in whether you know the language in the first place! So for me, it would be relatively easy to translate this post to Pig Latin, because I know English and I know the Pig Latin algorithm... but it would be very hard to write this post in Hungarian, because I don't know any Hungarian.
Yea it's like " We had zero problem achieving 1080p 60 fps in our new Stick figure shooter " Ooooh really ?
True, there is no complications, it's nothing like PS3 was/is. Pure and simple weak hardware, PS3 had the power but it was difficult to get the most out of it. Xbox has nothing, it's already maxed out, they had to give up on Kinect and use its resources to give it a bit more grunt but its still not good. PS4 has headroom and GPGPU isn't being properly used yet either.
"Working On The Xbox One Has No Challenges Out of the Ordinary, eSRAM Posed No Issues - Dev" Maybe for you but other games speak for themselves.
Notice how XboxOne is @ this point in next gen keeps getting articles about this. And on SONY's platform, they let there games speak for them self....
Are u kidding ive seen plenty of articles like this for sony
You daft? I see tons of articles just like this in regards to Playstation 4. And there Indies just like this one...Making statements of how they have no challenges with the system. Wake up kid...
What games I followed the hype and bought the ps4 over the One and I don't see the games can't wait for November to that beautiful Cod Advanced Warfare Xbox One bundle
@falviousuk "Notice how dev that are ACTUALLY making games on the xbox one are telling us what its like to work with the machine" Uh, yeah, they have been doing that since the machine came out... "And sadly the rest of the pack actually listen to the N4G commenters and not the people making the games." Seriously? Sony fans are like any other fans on here, they go off of what the "actual" devs say and have been saying as well. Not all devs say the same things by the way. "N4G = Sony Fanboyland, they should make a film about this" Yes, we know, there are more Sony fans on here and literally everywhere else. Is that because people like Sony more? There has to be a reason... They should make a film about that, I agree.
@ falviousuk Yeah, and we're under no illusion about what these developers have been consistently saying about the XB1 hardware since its release. But of course… make this all about N4G, like the real world and results are not telling the same story. In reality: http://www.gamespot.com/art... What were saying about the people who are making the games?
@DR, http://www.gamepur.com/news... http://news.softpedia.com/n... You missed where the same dev said the PS4 was more complicated and both consoles are struggling to hit 1080p. You might want to find another dev to support your opinion.
That's good to know. : )
Well for a Pinball game how is ESRAM expected to be an issue.
Not surprising coming from the publisher of an Xbox Arcade title. In fact, they're a small studio pushing out multiple pinball games. I wouldn't call this an adequate benchmark.
good lord how many small devs are going to be asked this question before one of them rightfully punches the person right in the face
Things take time to learn. Glad the new SDK's give dev's some ease.
I agree with you!!!! no one is giving Dev teams time to work out the new systems, if I was Sony n MS I would ban anyone to talked bout the inside of the systems for a couple years.. So the games can tell the truth...
I wouldn't wanna be the company that enacted that first... "Ms won't let us discuss esram" Might sound shady lol
No offense but your statement honestly makes no sense. If that was the case we wouldn't have any games. Devs under the publishers guidance are free to talk about their games as they wish, its the journalist that are asking these stupid questions. Journalism now in comparison to the past is about feeding the hungry. If it is something that we thirst for they will keep providing it. Journalism for just about the games is lost in this clouded fanboy feud.
The key thing he said experienced dev team!!!! I think that's very important all the big dawgs not had any trouble, other then one or two that likes being seen is all.... They are No Way in the world MS made a system hard to work with, MS is the masters of OS... If experienced dev team can take n port a PC game to the PS or PS to PC, the X1 they can do in there sleep... I LOVE both systems that's why I own both...even the Wii U...I want to play everything
...for a pinball game.
At least a pinball game can make 1080p on the X1, and at least a mini pinball game doesn't have problems with eSram. Let's forget all the major devs who have detailed the bottleneck it causes. @Krimzon: I don't like shady business practices :) Do you? You willingly want to give your money to a company that treated you so unfairly, lied to you, and insulted your intelligence? (and if your only response is "sony is no angel" then I pity your ignorance) I feel more bad for people owning an X1 than I feel good about owning a PS4.
Another positive X1 article where the fanboys try to make it a negative one. SMH. Are we just suppose to ignore the many devs that have good things to say about making games on the platform. Oh thats right...you'd have us believe their are none.
For every dev that says they struggled with esram, their is another dev that says it wasn't a problem as you pointed out...the real issue is how talented said devs are with the tools. We know Bungie and Blizzard took their X1 iterations from 900p to 1080p using the latest SDK (with help from MS)...other devs will do the same as time goes on and they get better with THE TOOLS. My point is this article is about this particular dev, not any other...why cant we just say "cool" and move on...why must this positive news about a dev having no issues with the tools be dragged into what other devs are or arent capable of? Stick to the topic. Your link tells the story of how The Witcher 3 devs say DX12 wont mean every game will instantly get to 1080p just because its using DX12...AND THEY'RE RIGHT! The link is education for those who dont know what DX12 is meant for. However, thats irrelevant to this article. DX12 and esram are two different things. The lastest SDK is ALREADY allowing games to get to 1080p with more frequency...DX12 is a solution to help make the CPU run more efficiently.
@Logic, The same developer you are using to state the differences also says the PS4 is more complicated to develop for. http://www.gamepur.com/news... They also state they are struggling to hit 1080p on the PS4. http://news.softpedia.com/n...
It is not a botlleneck the problem is the devs have no experiences on ESRAM because it is realy very different than other type of Ram Modules.As From next year they are gonna learn much better how use it and the games look and perform better plus dx12.Dont tell me dx12 will have no impact on X1.It has even changed Surface 3:)
Intel showed with Surface 3 how PC will have benefits when DX12 come ( though Mantle already do this ). And Xbone already HAS low-level coding.
No actually...the Surface Pro 3 wasnt about low level access as much as it was about its CPU evenly handling the workload. Thats exactly that will happen for X1...DX12 will distribute the workload across X1's 8 cores much better, thus putting less stress on the main one and increasing efficiency.
Its not like the xbox and x360 didn't have embedded DRAM now they have the much better eSRAM. This should make life easier not harder and the learning curve should be small.
They have to say this. What are they going to say "It was a nightmare"? No , then they would be dropped by Microsoft. Articles like this hold no weight because it's all PR speak , especially when it's common knowledge amongst the gaming community and people that actually understand programing that The Xbone is very difficult to work on because it's just not powerful enough to meet the standards of this generation.
Yeah, only articles with devs talking negative about the Xbox One hold weight right?
Lol @ development arrested
For a Pinball game you need 512 MB of RAM and 1 GHZ CPU thx
Can't disagree with you there since I play pinball games all the time on my vita. What you said are more or less the specs of the handheld. Any console (current gen) that can't handle a simple pinball game at 1080P is just pathetic in my opinion.
Because it's a pinball game. It doesn't take effort and time to make a game like this, unlike AAA games! @MasterCornholio Your opinion is on point! it would be very pathetic if a current gen console could not run a game at 1080p. Bubs up!
Since when pinball games are good "benchmarks"? Is it a satire article or something?
MS should have taken that billion in games and went with high grade ram. I know cerny is smirking right now saying to the bosses i told you so.