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Sexism in the MMORPG Community?

"Person is playing a female toon. Perhaps a sexy Twi’lek in skimpy attire because that seems to be the norm for the female versions of characters in most video games these days.

Person encounters other players, presumably male, who then go on to harass said player for being female."

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user14394141519d ago

Sony would never allow this on the PSN.

DOMination-1518d ago

Happened all the time on PS Home

crxss1518d ago

i plan on using a female guardian when Destiny comes out. if i get harassed i'll just shoot them

AntoineDcoolette1518d ago

Hm reminds me of a time I was playing WoW years ago. I was a Dwarf hunter and was taking a noobie through a dungeon. Anyway this party of horde came by, killed me, and just blew kisses to the noobie who was a female night elf -_-

Grap1519d ago

Story Quality - WTF?
Like this Website? - No.
i have said it and i will say it again.
"Remove this crap. This site used to be gaming site not politics crap, more and more of this crap are poping up in this site."

thorstein1519d ago (Edited 1519d ago )

So, why haven't you reported it?

It does appear to be clickbait day, however.

aLucidMind1519d ago

Like it or not, it involves gaming and thus is gaming news. That said, this site really should try to stick to maybe one article per subject and link other articles that are the same topic so nobody has to search for the news they want to see or be bombarded by "Gaming causes violence/sexism/racism" idiocy left and right.

hazelamy1518d ago

what's the matter grap?

what problem do you have with articles that shine a light on sexist twats?

you photophobic grap?

Prime1571518d ago

I'm still trying to figure out the difference between sexism and being a douchebag (or female equivalent)...

Growing up, I was forever told that confidence was the most attractive quality (I think that with women more, too, unfortunately for this argument).

However, confidence and misogyny were very similar in the eyes of the women crying out the loudest who also practice ignorant misandry (which is considered more laughable and dismissive - which is ironic in its nature).

Sorry, ladies, it's not always like that, and I've seen women do the same to men...

Alas, this is too sensitive of a subject for public forums; I expect disagrees. There is no way for my brain to articulate how similar all humans are in this article; male or female.

ravinash1518d ago (Edited 1518d ago )

Well the site is called News 4 Gamers.... not games 4 gamers. So it can cover a lot more related subjects than just the games them selves.

Some of us want to know what’s going on behind the scenes as it is important, because Gaming is a large industry that is getting more and more attention from the non gaming public.
There is a lot of miss-information going on out there and we as gamers need to keep on top of what’s happening.
Otherwise what will happen is these people who like to blame games for any of societies ills will push through law without us even knowing about it... and how would you feel if GTA or CoD were banned.

My example might be extreme, but that not to say that there are people out there who are working to make this happen.

If anything, it might help if the site made a seperate tab for social culture or anything to be with these subjects.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 1518d ago
Blueponder1518d ago

Many males play as female characters to fool real males to help them out.

breakpad1519d ago

stupid article by default ..for all of you anti sexist supporters dont play games ..games are fantasy fiction products and we want them just like that to have pretty sensual women (or men) inside them

LeCreuset1519d ago

"stupid article by default"

I don't think you should be throwing stones. I take your comment as being directed toward me since you call out "anti sexist supporters." So what does that make you, pro sexist?

HighResHero1519d ago

"stupid article by default"
What this proves is that all these people writing clickbait articles with ISMs in the titles are perpetuating the "boy who cried wolf effect".
What that means is, when there is a real issue that needs resolution, many people will not take them seriously anymore.
Only the most obstinately naïve people will continue to cling on as these hot button issues lose their magic by overuse.
Unfortunately it is OFTEN attention-hungry manipulative sociopaths that are the ones ruining it for others.
I haven't read the article yet because I already feel kinda barfy, so if they were well intentioned I would never know it, and that's unfortunate.

GamerEuphoria1519d ago

Played with plenty of females in most of the major MMO releases, very rarely did i see any cases of actual sexism.

Also i don't get the point of the post given it's all suggestion...like literally all of it is based on 'what if'

DragonKnight1519d ago

The point is to cause women to come forth and say "yes this is true" and start up another B.S. controversy for no reason.

People don't seem to understand that douchebags aren't sexist. They are douchebags of equal measure to any gender or race. True sexism in gaming isn't as prevalent as some would have you believe.

Sure, women who game definitely have to deal with guys saying "Tits or GTFO" and all other manner of derogatory speech that may focus specifically on the fact that they are female.

However, I would bet real money that 9 times out of 10, that douchebag (or douchebags) that said those things to women then later go on to say equally perverted or derogatory slurs to men later on.

Douchebags don't need a gender to be a douchebag.

GamerEuphoria1519d ago

errr ok that was not my point though was it :D?

DragonKnight1519d ago

Never said, nor implied, that it was. You wanted to know the point of the post, I told you what the point was. It's to create controversy.

aliengmr1519d ago

Sexual harassment actually exists come on. Talk about being willfully ignorant.

Men and women are not sexually harassed "equally". That is just stupid. While it may not happen that often is it really so bad to step up and confront the douchbags?

I love how you turn it back on her by saying this was some sneaky attempt to create controversy. Grow up, no one is saying you're a sexist pig or trying to take your precious video games away.

So what I get from you is; women aren't allowed to speak up about being harassed because you think they will just be trying to start something. That's real mature.

What does it matter, most aren't going to even read the article and just write it off. The rest will find some way to blame the author, like you.

DragonKnight1519d ago (Edited 1519d ago )

aliengmr: "Sexual harassment actually exists come on. Talk about being willfully ignorant."

Question: Did I say it doesn't, or did I in fact say that TRUE sexual harassment isn't as prevalent?

"Men and women are not sexually harassed "equally".

Do you have proof of this? Or do you just have anecdotal evidence from those who decided to speak up?

"While it may not happen that often is it really so bad to step up and confront the douchbags?"

Where did I say or imply otherwise?

"I love how you turn it back on her by saying this was some sneaky attempt to create controversy. Grow up, no one is saying you're a sexist pig or trying to take your precious video games away."

I love how you did what you're accusing me of, only to me. The author created a fictional situation, not a real one. The only reason to do so is to create a hot topic. And even in her opening paragraphs, she mentions hearing stories. She isn't talking about her own experience, she's talking about things she's heard. What possible reason could there be for someone who HASN'T experienced this to bring it up hmmm? Not only that, she even goes on to say she's not convinced that there is sexism in the community.

So here we have an author not talking about her own experiences, creating a fictional situation, and unconvinced of any supposed sexism in the community, and you can't see how the blog could be to create a hot topic? *sigh*

"So what I get from you is; women aren't allowed to speak up about being harassed because you think they will just be trying to start something. That's real mature."

Then the schooling system has failed you in a big way. None, absolutely none, of my post came anywhere close to even implying that. My post said douchebags are indiscriminate because they are, and that the claims of sexism in the industry are overblown. Just like with every current controversy that's always overblown in and out of gaming.

"What does it matter, most aren't going to even read the article and just write it off. The rest will find some way to blame the author, like you."

And then there will be people like you, ready to don the armor and shield of the White Knight over nothing and refusing to actually read and comprehend anything written in the process.

@LeCreuset: *looks over original post* Funny, nowhere does it even say "so yeah, give these people a pass because they do it to everyone." Hmmm, are you sure you were reading my post?

LeCreuset1519d ago

Uh... yeah. Somehow your argument didn't persuade me to give a pass to sexists, racists, bigots, and other forms of harassers just because they probably engage in multiple categories of deplorable behavior.

Am_Ryder1519d ago

DragonKnight... Pleaase quit your crusade bro. It just comes off as typically one dimensional and unnecessary. If you find this kind of topic that problematic and uninteresting, just don't read it or comment on it. You don't need to degrade everyone else's reading experience by whaling on interested readers.

I don't disagree with you about this article- it's fairly poor on the whole. But you can't deny the bit where the writer explains how to deal with harassment practically is excellent. Even people in the comments section have mentioned its relevance and usefulness.

(I've got to say though, the "douchebags are douchebags to everyone" argument is a horrible strawman fallacy. You can't simplify anyone who behaves problematically into "douchebag", and then you can't simplify all "douchebags" into "they're jerks to everyone".

The world isn't as simple or reductive as that. Yes, some douchebags are jerks to everyone- but many are idiots only to women. And many are idiots only to men. You cannot erase those two groups, saying they're all the same.

Also I'd like to add that stats do support the fact that douchebaggery happens to women more than men, but you'll use your heavy confirmation bias to ignore any widely-accepted evidence I provide on that, so I'll drop such a line of argument and not mention it again.)

DragonKnight1519d ago

@Am_Ryder: "You don't need to degrade everyone else's reading experience by whaling on interested readers."

I degrade the reading experience of people who, metaphorically, put words in my mouth. I don't degrade the reading experience of people interested in the topic at hand and haven't. The reason I ask "did you read what I wrote" is because people bring up stuff that I apparently said that wasn't in what I wrote. Case in point, you thinking that I'm degrading the reading experience of interested readers. Nothing like that is in any of my posts. What is in my post is a reply to someone who didn't get what I wrote, not what the article says.

"But you can't deny the bit where the writer explains how to deal with harassment practically is excellent. Even people in the comments section have mentioned its relevance and usefulness."

That's fine, but I didn't even talk about the methods of dealing with it, so any implication that I was putting down such a method is false from the get go.

"I've got to say though, the "douchebags are douchebags to everyone" argument is a horrible strawman fallacy. You can't simplify anyone who behaves problematically into "douchebag", and then you can't simplify all "douchebags" into "they're jerks to everyone".

Actually I can, and did. I've been around the block a few times to know that people who are douchebags to one, are douchebags to all, it's just they hide instances of the latter more than the former whenever possible. Most people don't live multiple personalities, they live one and put up another as a front but can never completely deny who and what they are.

"The world isn't as simple or reductive as that. Yes, some douchebags are jerks to everyone- but many are idiots only to women. And many are idiots only to men. You cannot erase those two groups, saying they're all the same."

Actually it is. The world isn't as complex as you might think, you just have to look at everyone and see it for yourself. Though, come to think of it you may be right in one way. Typically, when an ideology is involved, a member of a group usually won't be antagonistic to another member of said group. That is until they say one thing out of place with the ideology of course.

"Also I'd like to add that stats do support the fact that douchebaggery happens to women more than men, but you'll use your heavy confirmation bias to ignore any widely-accepted evidence I provide on that, so I'll drop such a line of argument and not mention it again.)"

Show them. I don't have confirmation bias. I am immensely critical of all statistics because statistics can be used to prove anything. 14% of all people know that.

aliengmr1519d ago

@DragonKnight

LOL. I mean you are really going at it.

I'm not going to debate that women are sexually harassed. That is a fact. Are men harassed? Yes. Is it the same? No. Its simply not. Argue all you want its all still wrong.

Whatever, you don't really care anyway. You are doing your best to convince someone of...something.

Seriously? Being just a decent human being is...debatable?

DragonKnight1519d ago (Edited 1519d ago )

@aliengmr: For someone who's not going to debate, you're doing an awful job of, you know, "not debating."

"I'm not going to debate that women are sexually harassed. That is a fact. Are men harassed? Yes. Is it the same? No. Its simply not. Argue all you want its all still wrong."

What you actually said was "I have my fingers in my ears going lalalalalalala I'm right you're wrong and I'm not going to tell you why."

Gotta love the grade school ability you possess.

"Whatever, you don't really care anyway. You are doing your best to convince someone of...something."

Nope, that's your job. I simply stated a truth. You're the one implanting words into my post, trying to make a statement I never made in an effort to make me look like the "bad ol' man who likes it when the womynz get picked on." I don't care what you're convinced about.

"Seriously? Being just a decent human being is...debatable?"

I tell you what, the very second when you can point out in my comment where I said anything about being supportive of people who aren't acting like "decent human beings" I'll answer your question.

But remember now, you have to use what I actually said. Not what the voices in your head told you I said. So go ahead now, look in my post for anything that implies "you know, I think people should have a choice whether or not they want to act like a douchebag, and no one should be allowed to report them when they do."

I'll wait.

LeCreuset1518d ago

"But remember now, you have to use what I actually said."

I'm going to take you up on that challenge and break down the problem I have with your post quoted segment by quoted segment, as well as respond to your reply to me.

First, let's deal with your reply to me.

"Funny, nowhere does it even say 'so yeah, give these people a pass because they do it to everyone.' Hmmm, are you sure you were reading my post?"

Funny, nowhere did I say you said that. See how that works? Learn the difference between a direct quote and an implication (which is what I was responding to) before you start playing reading comprehension games that you do not want to be playing with me. I'll school you more specifically on the IMPLICATIONS of your comment, further in the post.

"The point is to cause women to come forth and say 'yes this is true' and start up another B.S. controversy for no reason."

For someone so demanding of proof from others you seem to have no problem slinging around that accusation, and repeating it, as if it is a verified fact. For someone trying to stir up a controversy, the author goes to great lengths to make it known she's "not 100% convinced there is a real issue of sexism in the SWTOR community." She allows that there are people that don't experience that harassment. She even says she's "willing to bet it’s less common in SWTOR than many other games." With that said, her position is that harassment is never acceptable. "That being said, just because it’s more common in certain types of games than others does not mean it is EVER ok." She follows that up with steps to take to report the behavior IF IT DOES HAPPEN. The point of the article is to advise people what to do in that situation, no matter how rare, not to "start up another B.S. controversy for no reason." You seem to be bringing some biases into the article that affect your reading of it.

"True sexism in gaming isn't as prevalent as some would have you believe."

I'm going to hold you to the rules of the game you've been playing and ask that YOU provide some proof of what "true sexism" is and just how "prevalent" it is in gaming. I would assume that if you're declaring how prevalent it isn't you would know how prevalent it is. I'll wait.

(Continued next post)

LeCreuset1518d ago

(Continued from previous post)

"People don't seem to understand that douchebags aren't sexist. They are douchebags of equal measure to any gender or race. True sexism in gaming isn't as prevalent as some would have you believe.

"Sure, women who game definitely have to deal with guys saying 'Tits or GTFO' and all other manner of derogatory speech that may focus specifically on the fact that they are female.

"However, I would bet real money that 9 times out of 10, that douchebag (or douchebags) that said those things to women then later go on to say equally perverted or derogatory slurs to men later on.

"Douchebags don't need a gender to be a douchebag."

Again, I'm going to need some proof from you, beyond how much you would hypothetically bet, that "9 times out of 10, that douchebag (or douchebags) that said those things to women then later go on to say equally perverted or derogatory slurs to men later on." You wanted to play the evidence game so let's play it. Otherwise, your comment doesn't really hold any weight.

What you engaged in, evoking my original response to you, is a fallacy of misdirection known as a red herring. That someone who is sexist may be a universal "douchebag" has no bearing on the argument made that if someone is being sexist they should be reported by the victim and told to stop by their peers. You may not be directly saying that we should give harassers a pass, but using misdirection you are attacking the article calling for people to hold them accountable if and when it happens. You are trying to divert attention away from their sexist activities by calling attention to possible reprehensible behavior in other areas, while failing to address what should be done about said behavior. Thus, my snarky comment about not giving a pass to someone just because they happen to engage in multiple forms of unacceptable behavior.

The totality of your comment was to hypocritically level a charge against the article, which is just not supported by an unbiased reading of it, while engaging in a red herring that failed to address the point of the article that harassment is never okay, should be reported when it happens and should be discouraged by peers when it happens.

The article is simply calling on people to take action IF it happens. You want to play the "TRUE sexual harassment isn't as prevalent" game? Fine. She's only asking you to take action IF it does occur around you, whether it be one time or one hundred times. Given how much you've spoken up here against the article I can't see why you would be shy about speaking up if you encounter a situation, or is it just easier for you to call out the supposed white knights and those pointing out harassment?

DragonKnight1518d ago (Edited 1518d ago )

@LeCreuset: Ok so let me see if I got this straight. You reply to my comment with "your argument doesn't persuade me to give a pass to bad behaviour" thereby immediately making the implication that that was either what I said, which you just admitted didn't happen, or what you believe I implied, which you then didn't even touch upon in your pointless dissertation aimed at my points? Does that about cover it?

I'm not responsible for your assumptions, and I would love for you to point out anywhere that I implied "don't report and be accepting of bad behaviour" but you'd rather engage in "defend my irrelevant comment" mode and reply for someone else.

I read the post, I don't need your transcript of it. I also happened to read the fact that the post wasn't even made about the author's own experiences, wasn't due to an experience that recently happened, and is a giant "what if" scenario which most agree about and call into question.

The entire basis of my original comment is framed around that fact and the fact that accusations of sexism, misogyny, and other B.S. are not only overblown, but ceaseless and taken in a vacuum context.

Anyone who has gamed online enough can even point out the, what I like to call, "career douchebags." And if you think that such people limit their douchebaggery to just women, then you haven't played online very much.

Now assume you know someone, on a personal level, that is a douchebag online. Say a friend. And the only people you see this friend be douchebags to is women. How likely do you think it is that when you're not gaming with your friend that that friend still is only a douchebag to women and not everyone?

But I digress. I'm not going to engage in a game where you insert implications I never made and want me to disprove implications you conjured up in your own mind.

The following are things I personally don't care if you believe or not but are still the truth.

I never said sexism in gaming doesn't exist. I said true instances of sexism, where the person saying certain things deliberately to target women and only women, aren't as prevalent as we're made to believe and that's simply the truth. To prove it at a level that would satisfy you would require me to follow around gamers and monitor their communications without their knowledge. That is not only illegal, it's also impractical. I'm basing the statement on the truth of who douchebags are and it is irrational to believe that an a$$hat is only an a$$hat provisionally.

I never said to accept bad behaviour. Period. Nothing else to say there.

I never said to not report on bad behaviour. Period. Nothing else to say there.

So if you want to insert words and implications in my posts, continue to make yourself look foolish by doing so. I personally am done with people like you so don't expect another response from me on this subject because I'm not playing the implication game you want to play.

And I'm also out of bubbles.

LeCreuset1518d ago (Edited 1518d ago )

@DragonKnight

Let me give you a remedial lesson on meaning in language. Meaning is about more than what specific words were said. How an argument is framed, what it responds to and in what context it is made also factor into giving it meaning. That's why it's possible to respond to someone by saying, "Yeah. Right," and have it possibly mean two completely opposite things: agreement or disagreement (in the case of disbelief).

You seek to avoid addressing the real argument by arguing something that is not in dispute. I never said, nor implied, that you said that, as established at the start of my previous post. What I have addressed from the start is the implications of your red herring argument against the article advising people to report and discourage sexual harassment IF they experience it.

"...or what you believe I implied, which you then didn't even touch upon in your pointless dissertation aimed at my points?"

Actually, I did, but maybe it was just above your level to comprehend. At the risk of losing some of the finer points of the argument, let me simplify it for you. When I say "Uh... yeah. Somehow your argument didn't persuade me to give a pass to sexists, racists, bigots, and other forms of harassers just because they probably engage in multiple categories of deplorable behavior," that's me calling out your argument for being sophomoric, fallacious, irrelevant, and an attempt to distract from the issue being addressed — though you will notice that I did not say those things, but IMPLIED them. It's funny how language works that way, right? What you responded to the author's argument with (other forms of bad behavior) had nothing to do with what was being argued. You have a tendency to introduce irrelevant matters not in dispute to respond to an argument.

"I would love for you to point out anywhere that I implied 'don't report and be accepting of bad behaviour'"

See the entire section, which I've already gone over, where you address the author's argument calling for people to report and not tolerate incidents of sexual harassment they experience by introducing a red herring to argue against and distract from that message. In doing so you are trying to downplay sexual harassment and frame the author's advice as "another B.S. controversy for no reason," which is exactly what you accused the author of trying to accomplish directly before launching into your red herring.

"I also happened to read the fact that the post wasn't even made about the author's own experiences, wasn't due to an experience that recently happened, and is a giant 'what if' scenario which most agree about and call into question."

Why do you keep stating, for fact, that this isn't based on any of the author's personal experiences, isn't due to a recent happening, and is a big "what if" scenario? Are you failing to comprehend what you read, again? I think you're taking when she says, "I have heard stories of people quitting SWTOR due to the harassment or abuse they have suffered due to their gender, or perceived gender in the game," to mean that the common harassment she later talks about is also purely anecdotal and not based on experience or recent happenings. Where the what-if comes into play is simply in the advice on what to do IF you experience harassment. Furthermore, the author's personal experience is rather irrelevant to her point, that sexual harassment should be reported and discouraged if encountered. Congratulations. Your rely on an ad hominem and argument ad populum argument.

(Continued next post)

LeCreuset1518d ago (Edited 1518d ago )

(Continued from previous post)

"Anyone who has gamed online enough can even point out the, what I like to call, 'career douchebags.' And if you think that such people limit their douchebaggery to just women, then you haven't played online very much."

Your standard of proof drops to accepting anecdotal evidence when it suits your argument, but that doesn't stop you from hypocritically demanding proof from others when they present something they believe to be generally accepted. I really don't care how broad their bad behavior is, as it is irrelevant to the argument that you addressed, as I've stated many times. I just held you to your own standard to highlight your glaring hypocrisy. You failed to live up to it.

"I said true instances of sexism, where the person saying certain things deliberately to target women and only women, aren't as prevalent as we're made to believe and that's simply the truth."

Again, how prevalent are they, and why is that relevant to an article which allows that it may not be so prevalent but should still be dealt with when it happens? I get that to prove it is impractical, but it's proof you demanded from the other side of the argument and without it your argument doesn't hold any more authority than claims that it is more prevalent than you acknowledge.

"I'm basing the statement on the truth of who douchebags are and it is irrational to believe that an a$$hat is only an a$$hat provisionally."

Are you trying to imply that there are no such things as sexists because a sexist douchebag will be a universal douchebag? I don't see why a douchebag can't wear a number of hats, including sexist, nor what that has to do with the point of the article, to report and discourage it if you experience it. You cling tightly to that red herring in lieu of a proper argument.

"So if you want to insert words and implications in my posts, continue to make yourself look foolish by doing so."

No words were inserted into your post, despite how strongly you try to imply otherwise, and the implications were derived from the post in which YOU inserted them.

"I personally am done with people like you so don't expect another response from me on this subject because I'm not playing the implication game you want to play."

People like me? You seem to be carrying a lot of previous biases into this conversation, and it's affecting your judgement of the conversation and its participants.

As far as the implication game, you already played it with your post. It's not a game. That's how language works.

You aren't hurting my feelings by shutting up. You went into this article already feeling a certain way, tried to derail the conversation by introducing a red herring, and now find that the only person you've discouraged from speaking is yourself. I'm not going to lose any sleep over that.

+ Show (11) more repliesLast reply 1518d ago
X-Ender-XI1519d ago

Played as a gnome in Warcraft. They constantly mocked my height. I demand they make gnomes taller!

GamerEuphoria1519d ago

Dude this happened to me for 2 years! no one takes pink haired gnomes seriously as people :(

Septic1519d ago

Alliance scum. I'm gnomist and proud.

OpieWinston1519d ago

Welcome to MMOs... They aren't going to change, you either deal with it or GTFO.

Sexism/Racism/Faithism...It&# 39;s in gaming community.

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