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Next Xbox One Cloud Demo Will Show CPU, Latency, Bandwidth; Info on Online Requirement Coming Later

After the reveal that the impressive cloud destruction demo shown at Build was actually early work for the upcoming Crackdown game, many have been wondering when we’ll see more about it. The newly appointed head of the Xbox division Phil Spencer explained on Twitter that a new demo is already being planned.

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fr0sty748d ago

I'll believe this when I see it running on real world connections. By the time latencies and bandwidths are where they need to be in the real world for this tech to be feasible, you'd be better off with full-on cloud gaming. In both cases you still have to be connected to the cloud for the game to work as it was meant to.

Until I see real world benefits in action on real world internet connections, and see that things are being accomplished that cannot be done by any other console, this is all just a clever trick to fool Xbox owners into buying into their game needing to be connected to the internet to work.

mhunterjr748d ago

I just don't know why you think bandwidth and latency isn't where it needs to be for something like this to be feasible.

Likely, this process would require LESS band with that a streaming solution, like (netflix or PS now), and wouldn't be any more latency dependent than an online multiplayer game.

For example, if you've played a game of Halo, and you weren't the host, you've already played a game where your physics are handled remotely. Your location and vector data was sent to the host, his machine calculated the resulting events, then sent that data back to your machine for rendering. This process is less data intensive than streaming an HD movie. Now, instead of the host being on another Xbox, he's being replaced with a network of computers.

georgeenoob748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

This + GPU reserve removal and getting 1080p way more games like Destiny and Battlefield (60fps) is phenomenal. If Crackdown 3 plays like that previous cloud demo then prepare to be amazed.

Funantic1748d ago

People don't believe this will work but want me to believe streaming games through PS Now won't have latency and connection issues. Yeah right. Yes they're different, but both require excellent net coding.

spacecat5050748d ago

How come no one questions latencies or real world connections when PSNow is involved.

all of a sudden everyone is concerned about staying online when an xbox one game is discussed.

Is everyone concerned when discussing PSNow and playing multiplayer games on that service??

Eonjay748d ago

Well as far as "requirements" go I am expecting it to need at least a 1.5mb connection like with the original xbox one policy. I am anxious to see what type of benefits it actually brings.

corvusmd748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

While its true, and EVERYONE has admitted (even MS) that the weakest link is user connection, and that this sort of service will take time to grow to it's full potential...how about being a little hopeful? Why does everyone have to be so negative about this...but ONLY against MS? In tech demos it works perfectly...BETTER than claimed actually, with the BUILD demo showing it bricking one computer (assumed to be stronger than X1) and the other computer using cloud performing 16xs better. The X1 claim is only that it will SOMEDAY add 3xs the power on top of an X1.

For some reason this topic is always met with "prove it". Well if we apply that same logic to Sony what do we get?

-PS Now...prove it, how bad will the latency be to stream every aspect of the game, not just stuff that isn't the immediate focus of the game?

-The PS4 is "50% more powerful therefore can make games look 50% better" Prove it... people keep confusing paper specs with on-screen end results. So far there hasn't been a SINGLE game that the end result even looks 5% better.

-PS4 has the best exclusives? Prove it...so far most PS exclusive are forgettable without looking them up, and the only two that come to mind immediately are KZ and inFamous, both which were disappointing compared to expectations. With the rest, how do we know? They've all been delayed and we can only see 1 min long cinematics on them. It's good to be hopeful, but how is this a "fact" that doesn't have to be proven?

-PS4 is the console for "gamers"? Prove it...why does X1 have a higher games attach rate if PS4 is the "gamer console"?

-"Project Morpheous is awesome and innovative". Prove it It's not the first VR device, and most people that have previewed it says that it has latency issues right now. It's a tough tech to nail down so it'll take time to perfect it..I get that, but why does this tech escape "prove it" and get the benefit of the doubt, but Cloud computing doesn't?

My point isn't even to trash talk PS4. PS4 fans can be very happy in their purchase, and it's doing a lot of things right....but why is it immune from "prove it" despite having just as many, if not more, "unknowns"

@frozen (below) they confirmed Uncharted was running "in engine", but be careful with that one. It looks great, an in-engine cinematic is still a cinematic...doesn't mean that the playable game will look like that, watch out for marketing speak "in engine" is one of the new ones. I'm sure it'll look great, but curb the expectations just a little bit.

choujij748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

I have several major concerns regarding that tech demo they showcased last time. For starters, what were the specifications for the so called "high end" PC? Not that we don't believe you MS, just humor us and be forthcoming with the details.

Also, why was there a small but consistent lag on the cloud side when both sides still showed 60fps (which was during the first 10 to 25 seconds iirc). Am I to assume that was due to the latency of sending and receiving calculations performed on their servers? If so, what was the connection type?

IMO, for the sake of demoing the technology, I sincerely doubt it would be anything else other than performed over a local area network (which is a far cry from transmitting over the internet).

Providing you have sufficient bandwidth, the biggest hurdle is and always will be ping and network jitter. And before any fanboys come to the rescue, yes, this is also a concern for game streaming.

All I know is I rarely play games with my Game mode set to off on my TV, simply because I want to reduce input lag as much as possible. This is especially true, when I'm playing online games.

4Sh0w748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

@corvusmd, Well said.

I have a wait and see attitude but even saying that I don't think its a matter of "if" cloud gaming can be done, its simply a matter of "how much" in a practical gaming situation(while connected) that it will improve the game beyond how it plays offline???

fr0sty748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

@Mhunterjr

The reason why latency and bandwidth isn't where it needs to be is because at 60 frames per second, you have 16.66ms per frame to complete the calculations needed for the frame so the GPU can render the frame. Very few places in the world have that kind of latency with their internet connections. Me pinging google from my 24mbps Uverse connection brings up a 36ms ping (not even good enough to do 30fps), and many people have worse connections than I do. This isn't even counting the amount of time that the server requires to process the data once it receives it, which adds a few more milliseconds into the mix.

The reason why this and playstation now are different is, with PSNow, the only data being sent back and forth is the controller input to the server, and an audio and video stream that is sent back. There is added latency, but it is only input latency because the server is processing the entire game, not just part of it. There will be a delay from the time you press the button until you see your character react, but you won't be dropping frames because of latency.

With the kind of server-aided rendering you're hearing about here, the console renders part of what is going on in the game, and relies on the server to perform other calculations such as physics. So, any dip in your internet connection, or connection interruption, and that massive physics calculation that was going on to process that building you just blew to bits slows to a 1fps crawl because your Xbox One was forced to process all of that load. If the data can't make the full round trip, including the time it took the server to process it, in 16ms or less, you start dropping frames.

Even in the demo they showed of the building being blown up, they still weren't able to go above 720p at 30fps, even though their servers were on a local network rather than the actual internet.

JasonKCK748d ago

Fascinating how people call it "smoke and mirrors" or "magic" meanwhile they use that tech right now.

mkis007748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

Frosty gets it! Thank you for attempting to show people the difference. Still it will fall on deaf ears.

It's sad when people still think psnow and ms cloud are the same thing. They are not.

GameNameFame748d ago

Ignorant fanboys and just pure desperation about cloud aied games.

PSNOW does 100 percent calcs at cloud. All the calculations are synced because they are done on one location.

MS cloud tries to mismatch calcs on console and cloud. Results? limited. Cloud thinks your car is in tunnel console thinks you are out of tunnel.

Latency then becomes a massive issue.

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

Digital Foundry went over this in detail.

Don't understand the tech? stop desperately trying to compare apple to oranges.

Biggest748d ago

Hello, everyone. I am here to introduce you to a new development in thinking. It's called "reality". In reality you can achieve amazing levels of understanding. You can "know" things. You can "see" things. You can "get yourself into the PSNow beta and find out what issues you may or may not encounter, while remembering that PSNow is a rental service for games and not the basis for all claims that the Xbox One is as powerful as the PS4". Hypothetically speaking of course. I don't know if everyone can maintain their sanity when dealing with "reality". If you're one of those people that have issues with "knowing" things in "reality" I would advise you to continue deflecting questions about Xbox One's Cloud power by pretending that PSNow doesn't actually exist, and that people don't actually talk about the good and bad of the service.

imt558748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

@corvusmd

-The PS4 is "50% more powerful therefore can make games look 50% better" Prove it... people keep confusing paper specs with on-screen end results. So far there hasn't been a SINGLE game that the end result even looks 5% better.

Nice try, dude. Your whole post above is NOT relevant and is meaningless when you wrote bullshit like this.

ITPython748d ago

@mhunterjr - You are only deluding yourself thinking that the bandwidth requirements won't be pretty big. Don't forget, the whole point of cloud processing is that the XB1 doesn't have to process and render the code, instead the servers do it and send all that data back. What kind of data do you think those servers are sending back? It's really no different than streaming something like Netflix, as the code is processed/rendered and sent back as finished frames (or completed textures, audio files etc), which depending on the resolution and fps, will require a hefty amount of bandwidth to work properly.

And latency is certainty a huge issue. As somebody else pointed out, even with a 30fps framerate, the margin of error with your connections latency is extremely small. @30fps each frame would need to be completed in 33ms or less to not cause frame-judder or frame-loss (which includes the time the code is sent from the XB1, the time it takes to process/render, and the time it takes to send back a completed frame).

I just sent a ping to Google.com, which took on average 35ms for a round trip, and it was only a tiny little ICMP packet that didn't require tons of processing. @35ms latency, my framerate would be roughly 28fps. And that is under extremely ideal circumstances. Add in the processing time from the servers, and any other variables (such as problems with your internet, people using up your bandwidth, other problems along the path of the packet, problems with the servers etc etc), the average latency people may have could be upwards of 100ms (which is pretty common with online FPS games). @100ms latency, the framerate would be @10fps.

The internet infrastructure (at least in the US, dunno about anybody else) just isn't equipped to handle this just yet. For some people it won't be an issue, but for the vast majority, the idea of realtime cloud computing on any significant scale is nothing more than a pipe-dream. Something like PSNow is realistically the best we can do right now.

quenomamen748d ago

Well if they already bought a X1, then there is no real need to fool them any further.

Christopher748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

***-The PS4 is "50% more powerful therefore can make games look 50% better" Prove it... people keep confusing paper specs with on-screen end results. So far there hasn't been a SINGLE game that the end result even looks 5% better. ***

I disagree with this one, corvus.

As far as exclusives, I think SS and KZSF have more than shown a lot more than a 5% improvement in technical and graphical quality. A heck of a lot more.

And then you have many third-party games where it was an obvious advantage on the PS4 in comparison, coming in much more than just 5% gains. AC4, BF4, CoD, etc.

Remember, it's not just resolution and FPS. There's a ton more in those games that is happening that set them apart.

***-PS4 is the console for "gamers"? Prove it...why does X1 have a higher games attach rate if PS4 is the "gamer console"? ***

Because Sony hasn't had to give away 1 or 2 free games for two whole months to get more people to buy their console. Even then, that attach rate is bogus considering the games that 50% of PS4 owners get each month on PS+.

So, essentially, it isn't.

SilentNegotiator748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

"How come no one questions latencies or real world connections when PSNow is involved"

Gee, maybe because there are gamers already testing it and reporting good things? But I know how much you fanboys love to find instances of "TEH SONI FANBOI HYPOCRIZYZ!" even where it doesn't exist.

"and wouldn't be any more latency dependent than an online multiplayer game"

Except that netcode handles mismatched connections; players will often not be exactly where they are in their own local game or the host will have a major advantage because the actions of the game are put through his/her local game first. The cloud needs to match up calculations with your local game, which means that every time you get a stutter in your connection, it will either be off or your framerate will have to suffer to compensate, or else it will have to GUESS what's being calculated locally to compensate and then you aren't saving any calculation.

XBOTTOX748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

-My current internet is 3.5 MBs down 1.5 MBs up

-My average latency on a wireless connection sitting in back my house is 22ms

-Stop believing and spreading the lie that todays internet is too slow you only need 1MB down. Youd be better off by just not commenting. You are always online anyway and There are games you cant play offline already, on both consoles.

-The demo showed you real world benefits, what they showed was from the crackdown engine.

-your just cleverly slandering and spewing out misinformation. XBOX ONE has hardware that is meant to stream compressed packets in and out of the console. These packets contain cloud computations. These packets can be A.I, skyboxes, shaders, physics, ETC ETC ETC

-I KNOW your going to disagree, disagree and out-bubble me, but PLEASE stop spreading the misinformation

Edit. Based on your comment below I assume you are under the assumption that all these games will stay up at 60 FPS throughout the gen? The demo showed was locked at 30 frames. Nothing even mentioned about 60. You are truly missing the point.

If they stream in the trajectory and physics of of those particles on the frame that they are created, they don't continue streaming in trajectory and physics for every single frame.

ALSO you can have 30fps animations running at 60fps. Do you get that?

fr0sty748d ago

^says the guy spreading misinformation with a ping too slow to support 60fps gameplay... Remember, 16ms per frame including server calc time...

Volkama748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

@ ITPython "What kind of data do you think those servers are sending back?"

Simple data on the positition, velocity and rotation of objects. Which is very different to Netflix or PSNow streaming, and far far less bandwidth-intensive. Think lots of tiny text files. Then compress them.

@Frosty your frame times are only relevant if we're talking about rendering graphics remotely. That is not the case. The CPU-intense physics are remote, the small data on the resulting object movements is streamed back, the rendering is handled by the GPU with the same effectiveness as any other object it needs to render.

The bandwidth requirements will be very reasonable and very common. Latency is a more valid concern, it is hard to say what kind of latency will cause problems but I'd say if you can play Titanfall at under 100ms then you are probably fine.

spacecat5050748d ago

Hey Silent, you have actual links to back that up? And I mean from real gamers and not pr on sony's pay roll. We had onlive which was a proven failure which had reported latency in most of their games. And if I remember correctly multiplayer games were confined to only the people in your area because the lag would have been to great.

but of course now that its in Sony's hands everything will work just perfect. Priceless.

I never knew how many real world cloud engineers we had on N4G who are experts at how this tech will work. You guys should call MS today and tell them how this will never work and they're wasting their time.

I find it hilarious how a certain group goes out of their way to downplay and spoil any excitment the others might have for a potential new tech that could improve gaming.

isnt that what its all about? Seeing something new for these new consoles, seeing something done differently in games that could be a great game changer and innovative.

as gamers we should all be hoping something like this works so it can be incorporated into a lot more games which will lead to bigger and more ambitious game designs.

but no, all we get are some on here that go out of their way to spoil any excitment others might have by spouting off their own made up calculations on what they think this tech might work.

shame on you N4G.

alabtrosMyster747d ago

Let's just put some perspective on this, Infamous:SS had at some points over 120 000 particles flying around, let's say you enabled the 30fps frame limiter (I think this is crucial for cloud based games to have a chance to work)... move the calculation to a server a few miles down the road, every frame of every second you need to send the position, direction and likely some other meta-data for everyone of those...

Imagine, people have problems playing multiplayer games with 64 players on the server! now you have to receive data for over 100K objects over the same internet connection!

Maybe those on google fiber, or some other high end services above 100mbps will see benefits from this (assuming there is no lame ass gamer with a 20mbps connection that joins their game!)

And don't count on the games relying on that feature to work without the Gold membership, cloud compute is not free, MS (or anyone) will not lend you compute power on their servers to play a 60$ game forever for free...

While this is up, what happens when the xbox two is released and they discontinue the live gold service for the game... and you decide you want to go though the campaign again 5 years later?

Not everything that makes a nice tech demo makes a nice product in the end (see kinect, motion controllers, etc.)

Volkama747d ago (Edited 747d ago )

Alastair the data is far more simplistic than what you get from other players. You don't need to poll a falling bit of rubble every 5ms to see if it changed direction. You don't need complex predictive netcode trying to compensate for the latency of that polling.

So bf4 has 64 players, and every bullet is a true projectile in that game too. The data from a building collapsing is less latency sensitive, more predicatable, and each bit is far less critical. I would think you can multiply the numbers many times over.

Will we see 100,000 chunks of debris? What about the ~30,000 from the tech demo? I have no idea. But I do think we'll be seeing cloud-hosted destruction with pretty reasonable conduction requirements. I expect 4mb to be fine.

And the thing that makes cloud better than physical dedicated servers? When Microsoft release xbox 2 and you decide to go back for a crack(down) at an old game there is no reason for them to have terminated it. The servers spin up on demand. No demand, no significant cost or problem to keep the game available.

+ Show (21) more repliesLast reply 747d ago
n4rc748d ago

I don't know.. I don't see any reason it wouldn't work fine for most

I have a 20/10 connection with a 25ms ping to the closest azure center.. Its far from the highest package available and the latency is low enough to be manageable for almost everything..

fr0sty748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

Assuming you stay locked at that 25ms ping, the best you could hope for is 30fps using cloud aided rendering. A frame is drawn every 33.33ms at 30fps. Don't forget you have to allow time for the server on the other side to process that data before it can be sent back also, and some things have to be done before other processes can happen in the rendering process, so even that 30fps is questionable at your ping.

mkis007748d ago

You are explaining it perfectly and yet people refuse to believe you.

Volkama748d ago

It is cringeworthy watching you pat each other on the back when you are speaking rubbish.

Nobody is talking about rendering on the cloud, so your cute little frame timing calculations are moot.

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 748d ago
threefootwang748d ago

Well they've talked the talk. Let's see if they can uhh, walk the walk I guess lol.

Magicite748d ago

More clouds? Will be raining!

Baccra17748d ago

Still sounds like fairy dust, but I'm willing to wait and see due to Phil.

memots748d ago

Steven3657 + 3h ago
This will be good...

As in get your popcorn good yes.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 747d ago
Am-No-Hero748d ago TrollingShowReplies(8)
Software_Lover748d ago

$h!t just got real.

I still stand by remark that the ps4 forced Microsoft to launch 1 year earlier than they wanted to.

hello12748d ago

You'd be right for thinking that. Microsoft i believe too was going to release the xb1 in 2014.

Sony caught everyone off guard early. Personally i think Sony knew Microsoft would have the better console in the long run, so they shipped early to avoid disaster.

Sony, has their own insiders too, legit ones.

IRetrouk748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

Cloud will help with certain calculations for sure but if I were you I would curb my enthusiasm, its not going to make it 3 times as powerfull, it just wont work like that, but you will find this out...... in the long run.

Kosmacz748d ago

I don't think so. They wouldn't push console one year earlier. We talk about synchronization of many internal and external processes, including third party studios developing games. Sure, they could force MS to push it like one month earlier, but not much more. This is not this sort of industry.

mrpsychoticstalker748d ago

everyday excellent news from Microsoft!

keep up the good work.

GGeasy747d ago

It's amazing people are still hating the xbox one. The past year it has done really nothing but good. More games,talk of improving the graphics, and the're becoming more competitive with PS with games for gold. I'm glad i have an xbox one , and i look forward to getting a ps4 in the future. I just wish this needless bashing on the xbox one would stop, it doesn't make you look like a ps fan boy it makes you look like a xbox hater.

Dewitt748d ago

I can't wait to see the amount of crow that will be eaten after this is demoed.

Software_Lover748d ago

Don't toot your horn yet. Nothing has been shown and requirements haven't been stated.

Dewitt748d ago

Except at BUILD when they showed an early demo of the amount of draws that are possible. Also, at E3 last year when they showed positional tracking of over 300,000 asteroids.

Why o why748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

I really think software lovers sentiment is the best one. Waaay to much horn tooting by some commenters like its already in their houses. I understand the optimism but not the near gloat level of comments. Lets not forget we've been hearing about this before launch and maybe, like software said above, it is the fact they released earlier than planned why its not quite operational yet. Lets just see what they come up with but I would suggest some temper their expectations a tad. Good luck regardless.

mkis007748d ago

You mean a build demo with no latency involved? The one where they never said where the computer running it was? Probably in the same room? Ya...

Biggest748d ago

"Except at BUILD when they showed an early demo of the amount of draws that are possible. Also, at E3 last year when they showed positional tracking of over 300,000 asteroids."

How many announced games are using this BUILD demo or asteroid tracking?

IrishSt0ner748d ago

"How many announced games are using this BUILD demo"

Buld demo was Crackdown 3. Confirmed. It's CGI 'in-engine' trailer shows massive destruction with the the same physics as displayed in the demo.

BG11579748d ago

If it works (which is doubtful), will people accept it?
This is the perfect way to make the drm come back. How many will applause?

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Sharky231748d ago

I can't wait to see the amount of people that get pissed when they have to be connected to the internet for this single player game to even remotely work!

Brim748d ago

lol that good ole drm .. might now be in the systems but sure will be in games ...

gameon1985748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

Nice try but people already know how the cloud games will work, the games will still look great without cloud (the new sdk update already is showing that) but will look even better with it.The thing is you Sony fans are starting to get scared you literally are losing all of your arguing points against the Xbox One. from price to power and whats most important the games.

4Sh0w748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

nah from what I understand they can just create the game from the ground up to run completely offline using hardware assets only, just like basically all games are now today. Now the *goal of this tech is so that they can also build it from the ground up to take advantage of cloud/server calculations WHEN YOU ARE CONNECTED TO THE INTERNET. I say go for it, its not like it will make the game any worst. NO, Simply put when you are connected the level of destruction and detail could *potentially be vastly improved for the best experience. So why not try pushing games with this tech? lol given that I can't remember the last time I didn't have internet service utilizing any future cloud functionality available would be like breathing for me.

No_Limit748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

didn't Sony just revealed that 95% of all PS4 are connected to the net at the E3 conference and that Destiny (an online required game) was their system seller?

People make a big deal out of internet as if you buy a $400 console and don't have internet this day and age, then you will be missing out on a lot of future AAA games.

Igniter748d ago

Sony said 95 percent of PS4's are connected to the internet and the Xbox probably has the same. So what's going to be the problem?

kickerz748d ago

Or people will accept it's an online game.within a few years most people who can afford TVs and gaming consoles, will Surely be connected to the internet one would think

kingdip90748d ago

@gameon

So then what is the point in the cloud if games will still look amazing because of direct x 12? And if the do look better with cloud then what incentive is their for those with limited internet to pay the same for a game that won't work as well as it will for everyone else who has internet?

timotim748d ago

HAHA Why would we be pissed? We already understand that we must be connected to play games online today...how would this be any different? I don't constantly connect and unconnect my Ethernet cable from my X1...it stays there stationary, always connected. I dont see the problem.

fr0sty748d ago

Sad so many lose sight of the fact that having an internet connection does not equal having a good enough internet connection to take advantage of features like this which require latencies far lower than most people have...

95% connected PS4s do not equal 95% able to use cloud processing.

Rocky5748d ago

@fr0sty
I don't think you get what there going to be using the could for.

You keep stating milliseconds everywhere & staying it won't work, that's only correct if the game is computing something that needs to be updated in real time.

What the cloud is used for is mass mathematical calculations, ie, a building falling down, something the user has no control over, shooting a barrel or a car will be done locally.

The cloud isn't going to be used for real time physics, it can't due to latency even if it takes a split second its noticeable ingame. (Shoot barrel half a second later it moves)

Where the cloud shines, is in doing stuff that is not real time, ie AI in the distance, large object that need physics & are not controllable/interactive by the player stuff that would normally require the CPU to calculate, can be done server side freeing crap loads of CPU cycle.

The best example I can think of is;
500 on screen AI 470 are controlled by the cloud, all interacting & fighting each other differently & the last 30 are controlled locally, so you get the feeling of a huge battle but only using a small amount of CPU resources. You could also have huge building collapsing (not scripted) in the background aswell.

soandsoz748d ago (Edited 748d ago )

"I can't wait to see the amount of people that get pissed when they have to be connected to the internet for this single player game to even remotely work! "

@Sharky

If you are referring to Crackdown 3 (Which I presume you are) I will have to agree.

cloudgine dot com is either cooperatively or exclusively developing Crackdown 3. Check out their website.

I really hope there ends up being a 'traditional' offline single player option. But, I'm not holding my breath.

That prospect brings back memories of what I was very opposed to within the XboxOne reveal. Always online. Hope that doesn't turn out to be the case with Crackdown 3 (and beyond) for the record

+ Show (8) more repliesLast reply 748d ago
MRMagoo123748d ago

yeh maybe they can show something that actually runs on the xbone and normal internet instead of enclosed pcs and what not, but then they wont be able to sell you hot air and dreams.