Can Xbox One's eSRAM be used to develop better particle effects? Camille Mirey, CEO of Persistant Studios explains.
Good to hear, but since we are talking about it...I'd REALLY like to see Black Dessert come to consoles...this may be another little tidbit that makes it more desirable for the developer...that and DX12 making it really easy to port games back and forth from PC. 감은 사막 게임이 정말 재미인 것 같아요 @Rashid Yeah, doesn't seem like this company has done anything on consoles before, but it looks like it's a great time to get onto consoles for them. I'm sure they could work it out. In the past Korea and Japan have had HORRIBLE relations with each other (esp being that Japan basically treated Koreans like slaves....250k sex slave during WWII alone), however lately it seems like while there is still SOME resentment about that, it's usually among older Koreans, and younger Koreans have pretty much moved past that...Japan and S Korea does have business dealings, so I'm sure getting this done wouldn't be an issue. As far as business dealings with an American country, it'd be no issue at all. US is like South Korea's biggest ally period. SK has the best/fastest internet in the world, and as far as videogmaing base (despite being a small country) they have a TON of gamers. It might be a rough first go to get it to consoles, but definitely not impossible. I hope it works out.
I would like to see Black Dessert on both the Xbox One and PS4. It needs to be on next gen. But being a Korean developer, I am not sure what of business challenges they will face.
Doubt they will. South Korea's all about PCs (Pro League players are practically celebrities and famous models and actresses are chosen to host some of those events). They might if they think their audience will grow substantially by allowing it on consoles, but I don't think they can on the Xbox One, so long as MS continues to not allow crossplay between PC and Xbox One. That's the main reason why FFXIV ARR didn't go to the Xbox One or 360, because of MS's no-crossplay policy, and I'm not even sure if Sony will allow crossplay with MS consoles. It would be pretty broken if MS drops the PC/Xbox One/360 policy but both Sony and MS don't allow crossplay between PS4 and Xbox One. I guess it could work by having dedicated servers for different consoles that also allow PC players to go into. And how does ESO even work?
Not a problem? Depends what you want to do.... If you want to run 1080p with AA additional buffering, then it is a huge problem. Just 1080p? With tons of Jaggies? Maybe it is ok. 900p. Yup Esram is ok. It isn't enough if you want full 1080p with post processing. It just isn't....
GameNameFame The worlds leading arm chair computer engineer. Give it a rest mate. YOU understand nothing. YOU have know idea how the PS4 or X1 work. its obvious from you constant trolling.
@JohnnyBadFinger Sure he may troll. However I agree with him. The Xbox One doesn't just have a stripped down operating system. It has the snap feature, tv loaded in the background and the os in the bakckground so we can go in and out of games without having to actually close it. That aside we on pc to run games good we need a descent cpu in which the Xbox One has 2 tablet CPUs but how many cores are actually used for gaming is currently unkown. But tablet cpus are good for low heat and not good performance wise not to mention the run less then 2 ghz. Then they'll have to depend on the esram but when devs are making games for 1080p with lots of post processing it takes a gb or 2 usually. Sure DirectX 12 could help performance. But I'm not expecting all of a sudden 1080p, textures quality ultra and fxaa X 8. Even the ps4 we hear about games running 1080p. But if it was 1080p, ultra textures, maxed out anti aliasing, ect we would hear about it? One dev that did say that was SOE said that Planetside 2 would be comparable with ultra settings on pc.
@johnnybadfinger You call him a troll and yet you're the one sitting on a nest of diminished bubbles. Why don't YOU and your apparent obsession with capitalising the word YOU give it a rest and let people discuss things in relative peace
Judging by the recent M$ polices with MMO developers i don't think you will ever see Black Desert on X1 for 2 reasons : 1: M$ doesn't support Cross-play between PS4 and PC at the same time 2: M$ put constraints on MMO developers in term of business model game quality and the game isn't suitable for the X1 to begin with if you consider the X1 your console of choice for games like BD It would be a miracle if BD coming to X1 along with PS4 and PC version
but i doubt sony would also allow cross play between xbox 1 & PC
@MrKrispy: Sony has been open to cross-platform with PC gamers for awhile now, it isn't them preventing cross play between PS4 and XB1, it's Microsoft. That's a habit that's been around since the the Xbox 360 as well.
Knight Shadow Run would disagree with that.
And, if the game was developed with OpenGL it would also be easy to port to Mac as well as the PS4. DirectX is new to this. DirectX12 makes it easy. But, Black Dessert was not designed around DirectX12, and I don't think DirectX11 has that same ease to transfer to DirectX12.
My GF always says that small size isn't an issue....
I cant wait till after E3, maybe there will be articles about games rather than hardware all the time. Although it will probably just be pixel counting, as gameplay doesn't matter anymore as long as there is a sh!tload of pixels!
If anything, fanboyism is just gonna get worse after E3.. Wonder if it'll mean more playable demos like it was about 5 years ago. @Clown_Syndr0me Yeah I bought tons too, even until recently, just playing old demos on my 360,but I fear devs will be put off due to pixel counters and people freaking out about framerate. It's sad.
I hope not, I cant stand it, its ruining the fun for me. I used to like discussing games online but not anymore. As for playable demos...bring them back! I bought so many games based on demos and now they don't even bother. I hardly buy any anymore, I just rent as I don't like taking financial risks.
Fanboyism at an all time high right now. Everyone needs to enjoy gaming and support all systems. We want games lets support them.
They matter if you think you are getting a next gen console instead of a box full of secret sauces and mysterious cloud fueled uber powers, if not bothered then there is an alternative on the market choco bloc with great games its called the WiiU!
wow the leader of the trolls has returned and of course he is on an XB1 article
There is no doubt you earned your 1 bubble.
I own a brand new $2500 gaming PC, a PS4, and X1. For multiplatform I own Assassins creed 4, battlefield 4, Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid GZ, and CoD Ghosts, all for the X1. That is how important res/frame rate matter. The X1 is truly a next Gen machine, it feels fresh. The ps4 is a last generation machine with hardware upgrades. My PC can do it all at it has its uses, but gaming is a chore using a keyboard and mouse. I did just get a wireless HDMI transmitter and coupled with my wireless 360 controller I can now PC game in my living room on my PC so I expect to do a lot more PC gaming now.
@alexkoepp If you truly owned a PS4 you would buy multiplats on it, when someone has the option to buy the best consoles version available they buy it. Unless they don't really have the system or do own both systems and have a raging bias towards one company. Have fun with all of that.
trolls aint allowed on n4g... a mod told me so lol but he did tell me that fanoys are allowed
@Scott182 So you're mad at him for buying games on the system he actually plans on playing? I own both consoles (no PC) and i also only play games n the Xbox ... i have Madden, Tf, BF4, Forza, Ryse, COD,NBA2k and others on the xbox ... and the only games i have on the Ps4 are the free games they gave me i was looking forward to the 4 player metal slug type game ... and yes it is cool but I've played it twice ...ive played Infamous it was nice and all but i wouldn't see myself buying it, i returned KZ... People that are quick to downplay the Xbox are those who have not used it its truly a next gen console
@Believe_Games "So you're mad at him for buying games on the system he actually plans on playing?" I'm sorry, but if you don't plan on playing on a system then why would you buy it in the first place??? It makes absolutely no sense at all! I'm not "mad" at anyone, but it gives me a good excuse to call BS. I would think better versions of multiplats would give someone at least one good reason to play games on a system, and both have fun AAA exclusive titles. Some rather play Titanfall, others would rather play Infamous, that is a personal opinion. But multiplats looking and playing better in many instances on PS4 is a fact! Why would someone that has BOTH consoles not buy the best version out? You buy both consoles planning to use both right? Who is trying to downplay the X1? I am stating a fact.
@Scott182 I buy all multiplats on Xbox One as I have a good gamerscore I like to build on. Plus I actually use the snap feature...alot.
^ I am just trying to understand why that makes it better to play multiplats on X1. Using a snap feature makes for a better actual game experience? And makes it more next gen? That was pretty much his claim I think, I am just trying to figure it out. I saw a review on tomb raider and it seemed more fun and next gen on the ps4... If I am honestly mistaking then please tell me.
@scott182 Dont listen to them, is just like you said their bias towards one company. My little brother is like this with playstation and hates all things xbox for no reason at all.
Lol, a chore to play KB+M, that's the first time I ever heard that. If you own multiple machines it makes no sense not to get the best possible version of the game. For someone with a 2500$ rig that be your best place to play, and you'd save money buying the games on PC. I gotta agree with @scott on this subject.
I have PS4 and X1 I haven't touched PS4 in ages games are lacking,no secret sauce required my friend
I agree with you and bubble up. I got them both and I don't care about pixels. I do like the feel of the game and I don't buy a game unless I play the demo first, so as of now they are not getting much of my money. I think this E3 will be great.
@scott182 maybe alex likes xbox live better than psn or maybe he likes the One's ability to multitask while playing games better than the ps4's. there's more to playing a game than the visuals.
Understandable, I have never used an X1 so I am not sure about all those features. But when I have seen comparison articles about games they generally pick the PS4 version So I assume it is the better version to have and it's better to play it on the PS4 (at least as far as the actual game is concerned). I have never heard that PSN wasn't as good to game on for multiplat versions of games...
I know what you mean but that may not be the case because Project Morphues could get a lot of attention if we see some software running on it.
You mean like the Xbox fanboys that were counting pixels all last gen but now that the shoe is on the other foot all of a sudden resolution doesn't matter, and then when there is a game that is downgraded enough to allow it to run at a higher resolution they say "see! The xbone can do it too!" And then resolution is important again? Yeah, they sure are hypocritical.
Well there are advanatged to the ESRAM, but so far the disadvantages are higher than the advanatges.
It was the same with ps3's cell, and that turned out well, so who knows how things will be in 2 years time.
LOL! The PS3 was absolutely crushing the Xbox 360 in graphics from its very first year. So by 'teh same' you mean exactly the opposite. The PS3 was running Gran Turismo at 1080p 60fps within just a few months after launch.
Did I say anything about performance or graphics? No, I just said esram is similar to the cell. It was harder for devs to get a grip on than the other console, but it worked out as an advantage. Not saying esram is gonna work out as the second coming of christ, but it may have benefits in the long run Yes it apples versus oranges, but in the context they are comparable things.
Immorals Lets get real here... Computations (SPU) vs RAM Cache (ESram)
The PS3 was crushing the Xbox 360 in graphics in its very first year. The PS3 is crushing the Xbox 360 in graphics seven years later. The PS3 was crushing the Xbox 360 so badly in graphics Microsoft was forced to start forcing third party developers to sign 'parity' clauses int their contracts to agree to gimp their games down to Xbox level graphics. So, yeah, cell...derp derp. What is hilarious about Microsoft's absolute incompetence in console hardware graphics design is they repeated one of the same stupid mistakes they made with the Xbox 360 in the Xbox One. The Xbox 360 was gimped with only 10 megs of EDRAM that made development a nightmare to deal with, made decent AA a constant problem, and ensured the 360 could never put out games with Killzone level graphics due to its inability to use multiple large render buffers all at once. And with the Xbox One Microsoft did it again with the gimped ESRAM once again making development a nightmare and ensuring that once again Sony will crush Microsoft in graphics this gen. It is going to be even worse this gen now that Sony has put an end to letting Microsoft get away with 'graphical parity' contract clauses.
@ agarycolemanclone yet ps4 cant run driveclub at1080p AND 60fps! and thats with all the delays it has had. forza..1080p 60fps,..if it was delayed as much as driveclub you have to ask yourself,..how much better would it have been?? @ revolver x.. yet you think you know more about understanding computer science than microsoft??. remember the the xbox one hardware has been put together in such a way that many dont understand why it was done like so. i dont pretend to know anything about such articles,..and i am sure only microsoft have a full understanding of why.. some devs say its a bottle neck,..some dont. Not all devs are created equal,..some are better than others,..but baising your opinion should come from both sides,.as it stand it states in the above article its 50 50 split weather its good or bad..
agarycolemanclone = mariahelfutura some people are so transparent
@ AGaryColemanClone you gotta be kidding me. Most ps3 games didn't even hit real 720p. PS3 was only showing it's true power when there was a game with super high budget being developed for 5+ years. Console was powerful but hard to develop for. People called it fault of lazy devs when games were sub-hd or running much worse than XO versions. Now XO is having more complicated architecture while ps4 is more brute force straight forward but hey it's not "lazy devs" when it comes to XO games, it's crappy and weak machine according to people like you. Hypocrisy at it's best... Wait till tools mature, you will be suprised.
@AGaryColemanClone- Maybe you forgot about Gears of War > Resistance: FOM at PS3's launch.
There's no advantages to ESRAM, it's a fix to mitigate slow memory. The memory set up of the Xbox One lacks any dedicated fast video memory since it uses the system primary memory, this is only a slow DDR3 chip though which demands a buffer; hence ESRAM. Conventional set up is system memory and video memory, the video memory should for modern engines and high resolutions be around 4GB today. Now contemplate the ESRAM size on Xbox One; 32 mb. It is very much a bottle neck, and I'm not trying to troll an XBO article or what ever but there's a lot of idiocy floating around the net about ESRAM being some kind of positive, it isn't its an evil must for a cheap memory set up.
Heres another armchair developer who thinks he knows everything. Please tell me what game you are making for the xbox one and how you are using the ESRAM to know it doesn't have any advantages.
Thx ats1992 I didnt know you had to be a developer to understand computer science. Thank you for clearing that up.
You can get some advantages out of it when it comes to relatively small data packages, but the disadvantages outweigh the advanatges. @ats Bit if a useless question since nobody would be allowed to answer that question in case there would be any devs here.
I don't need to be a developer to understand how computers function you know. If you understood how computers did work you wouldn't say something outlandish like that. So why don't you educate yourself? I majored in computer science so I know more than you obviously, though I wouldn't had to cause I knew this 10 years ago as well and then I had no formal education in the subject. Understand that the ESRAM is a cost effective solution. It's not optimal. And was certainly not picked by MS for its amazing performance. MS wanted 8 GB of RAM to fulfil their multitasking goals with the hardware, doing this they knew they had to be cost effective, so they chose DDR3 memory with a buffer to compensate for the slow speed when the primary memory had to be used as VRAM. They didn't pick it cause it was the best performer, they did to cut costs of including faster primary memory. Stop defending it and tell them to do better next time instead, blame Kinect.
@ats1992 The ESRAM offers advantages over just using slow DDR3, but it's at a disadvantage as compared to using DDR5. At best under ideal conditions the ESRAM can have performance about 10% above that of the PS4's DDR5, but that assumes you have a need to read and write at the same time. The real performance will be about the same or a little behind the DDR5. The real problem though is it's tiny size, it accounts for less that 0.4% of total system memory. So you really need to be careful about what you use it for, otherwise any performance gain will be lost with too much moving of data in and out of ESRAM.
I'm amazed da,m near every day on n4g... I just never knew n4g had so many professional developers that know how the ps4 and xb1 work down to the last bit of performance.. I just wonder with all that knowledge why are you always here instead of making games or your own console.l
Are you even listening to us? There's no secret in how a x86 system works, we can calculate and understand performance completely. It's what's so great about the two new consoles. They use an architecture people have been familiar with since the mid 80s. But that's not even the point in this discussion, its understanding how memory works, and you don't need to be a genius to understand that a wider pipe is moving more water than one with a funnel on it.
No nyp I'm not listening to you guys and it's nothing personal it's just that I firmly believe that their is a lot more to everything then simply understanding how x86 works based on your interpretation from the 80's.. Maybe you are right, who knows... It's just that It's getting ridiculous on how you HAVE to be right and it's impossible for one of the best and largest software company to do things with it that has never been done before. It's just too early in the game to be calling the victor of this gen. It's ok to have your opinion but you don't have to shove it down everyone's throat as facts because to be honest you don't have any other than you stating you have common knowledge of how it all works. I don't think it's fair for some random guy on n4g to dismiss everything ms says with no facts but then demand nothing but facts from ms right away.. All I know is that I'm a patient gamer and would rather wait for things like e3, games and time to show me what's possible. If ms delivers on all this secret sauce with the cloud then awesome, I would hope sony comes back strong and does something and one ups ms again for that cycle to continue through the entire gen. Currently the facts are that ps4 games are not blowing out the xb1 in the graphics department. IMO infamous holds the crown right now but it does not blow games like ryse out the window. It's not like it's the 80's vs current, it's actually pretty damn close to the human eye..
It's ignorance. Im sorry but there are no room for interpretation when it comes to hardware like this, the silicon can only function a certain way, it's not a question of opinion. It's why your argument falls flat. Factually this is the state of things. And calling the difference diminishing is just false. When the PS4 renders twice as many pixels with better performance than the Xbox One there's a huge difference, it's bigger than it have been since NES and Genesis. This early in the gen it shows in resolution etc, but going forward the hardware will be static but development wont. Sure Xbox One games will mature too, but the fact is it can't preform better than its hardware is capable of displaying it. The PS4 will cause of this ALWAYS be better. The hardware race is already won..
I agree with you nyp it's ignorance, although I see the ignorance in a different light than you do.... Again it comes down to you the mr know it all but have no facts and still demands facts! Lmfao the one sided mind you kids have is beyond belief.. Anyway you're right nyp, I give up...
What do you mean "Have no facts" I just told you the facts, if you don't believe me there's lots of information on the internet on how x86, transistors in general, CPUs, GPUs and memory functions. It doesn't mean it's not existing just because you choose to close your eyes for this information. If you do look up the information It would behove you to do so outside of the console space where so much marketing and dishonesty exists. Read about general x86 PC architecture and how transistors work. It's fully applicable.
That quote in the last paragraph is exactly why Mark Cerny decided not to go with an eS/eDram setup. Now you got middlewares and such that you have to factor in, like would it make more sense for this middleware to run through regular ram or eSram. It's gonna make middlewares not as optimized for Xbox One as they could be because of this issue. It also makes it hard as hell on 3rd party devs, they'll have to work on X1 versions of multiplats much harder, as if they're exclusives nearly, if they want to keep it close with PS4/PC versions. And seeing how that worked in the past against PS3 when 360 was usually lead platform, it's not looking good for X1, especially with it's current lack of popularity and there being much less in homes compared to PS4. The tables turned in the worst possible way for Microsoft this new gen, and it's all on account of their greed. They thought they set a standard they could just carry on with and take to new anti-consumerist heights. Instead, they got shot down hard, and they actually tried to wait for it to blow over, but things kept getting uglier, and that's when they did the complete 180. There's no coming back for them this gen, if coming back means making it ahead of PS4, the most they can do is have a respectable 2nd place at this point. The beatdown is way too bad, and PS4 secretly upgrading from 4GB to 8GB GDDR5 at the last minute was really the true nail in the coffin. Mark Cerny killed Xbox, Vlad the Impaler style.
Yes. A nail in a coffin for a console that has sold around 4.8 million since launch. That's like saying apple is dying because Android has more market share.
"sold around 4.8 million" LOL, nope.
Shipped to retail, sold is around 4 million most likely.
LOL at 4.8M why not 6m why you're at it. You know what make it 6.7M to make it more believable! Edit: Even Fakechartz is under tracking according to you.
When I say nail in the coffin, I don't mean X1 will completely die and fail like Dreamcast. It will just die and fail at attempted to trump PS4 in the overall view as best/most powerful next gen console. That mission is over, too much has come out showing why you should get PS4 instead of X1. Then, people who don't pay attention to all this, but want a next gen system, will most likely go with PS4 because the price. It's a lose-lose situation for X1.
How long have been a developer? Better yet how long have you been making games for x1?? Exactly another loud mouth fake developer I get it ps4 is stronger but u acting as if ur a 3rd party developer that worked with both systems
Nobody needs to be a developer to know Esram @32mb is a ridiculous compensator for 8GB of GDDR5 memory??!! You're just playing ignorant due to a silly sense of product insecurity. Quit trying to discredit what is now patently true, and just enjoy your Xbox One for what it is, like most folks do.
I've been developing games for about a year now. What he said is correct.
Many other recognized developers has stated that ESRAM is a Bottleneck. Anyway if ESRAM is not a problem at all then xbone having many problems to run games at 1080p must be just a product of our imagination.
Thats the sorfware running the esram all thats about to change with new sdk's being made then theres directx 12 coming soon all that 1080p thing will be in the past
Disagree. Even with optimizations, all developers have to do is push the hardware (no matter how powerful) and you'll no longer have 1080p. That includes the PS4. You think developers are going to make a game with standard graphics and keep it 1080p if they know they can get away with super detail at the cost of resolution? Driveclub, The Order: 1886, and Ryse: Son of Rome are all graphically demanding games. Driveclub maintains 1080p, but neither of the other games I mentioned are (well...The Order: 1886 is a strange case); none of them are 60fps either. Yeah, you can settle on visual fidelity to hit 1080p...or you can push the hardware and it, once again, will be out of reach. If developers settle on graphics, yeah, maybe you'll see more 1080p. Otherwise, no, no you won't.