The DirectX12 website has been updated added the Xbox One logo
Mistermediax redeemed /s To be expect tbh. They will most likely talk about the parallels they learnt working with XB1 in transferring that to PC (in terms of the low-level optimizations)
If you say so CBOAT. Dat spin and downplaying. https://twitter.com/tomwarr... http://www.gamespot.com/art... I remember PS3's early performance just after launch and I'll remember XB1's. These new tools will make Tiled Resources in Direct3D 11+(Directx 11.2, look like warm ups.
Lukas I'm actually confused myself because from my understanding DirectX 12, is a benefit for pc more so than a console, sort of like Mantle is a tool to help PC for lower level programming like consoles already do, but I could be waaay off so I'd appreciate if anybody has a "plain english" explanation. Edit, I meant to reply to Lukas below.
I do say so misterx insider.... Fiction and delusion works in wonderful ways.... Am sure MS will unlock the 128MB ESram, the second stacked chip thus by making the Xbox have an *innovative memory system* making it HSA compliant and with console level optimization with stereo drivers XB1 will be able to produce 10-12TF* depending on situation. /s @Lukas_Japonicus Same here but from what I understand it means that XB1 could share the API features that DX12 will have. On a side note I expect a new blog from misterx by tomorrow. Also looool at me being CBOAT.
"I remember PS3's early performance just after launch and I'll remember XB1's" Great, but the PS3 wasn't 40/45% down on power. "These new tools will make Tiled Resources in Direct3D 11+(Directx 11.2, look like warm ups." No, they won't. Sorry to burst you little bubble there. Tools/tools/tools/SDK/SDK, what happened to all the cloud power and hidden super duper tripple layered design? Your dumbness on tech talk knows no bounds.
"I remember PS3's early performance just after launch and I'll remember XB1's." Sales or hardware performance? With sales, it released a year later than the 360 with a more expensive product. MS took the lead though Sony caught up eventually. Hardware, it had a powerful system that was difficult to program for till people got use to it. Atm, you have xbone being a less powerful system that's more expensive...
Sigh. It'll only be a few tool updates for Xbox One at best. The real significance is for PC gaming and always has been. DirectX 12 isn't going to bring some sort of revolution in performance for Xbox One. It'll potentially add or improve some features, but that's what EVERY console EVER has done with their toolset and API, continuous, gradual evolution. DX12 is much more important and significant for PC, because it should enable much lower level hardware access, closer to the kind of access a console already offers. It'll effectively make Mantle pretty much DOA just because of how slow AMD have been. For anyone hoping that DirectX 12 is going to some sort of miraculous performance boost across the board for Xbox One they are going to be disappointed.
DoesUs: "Tools/tools/tools/SDK/SD K, what happened to all the cloud power and hidden super duper tripple layered design?" I don't know what "super duper tripple [sic] layered design" is, but the much ballyhooed "cloud power" is supposedly coming with Watch_Dogs. It ought to be interesting to see the difference between the PS4 and Xbox One versions. The PS4 has more power and better graphics; but, according to Ubisoft, all that dust blowing and trees swaying stuff in the early trailers is going to be powered by Azure servers in the Xbox One version of the game. I'm eager to see if this cloud thing makes any difference between the two noticeable.
LOL. OpenGL and Mantle is far better suited for console. Direct X12 is better for PC where you need optimization Direct X12 lacks. Btw, this does not unlock extra power. It still remains about 50 percent gap of GPU.
In other words...the new moniker will be: XB1DX12
Btw, what really is the point of this if Xbox One is not strong enough to handle features on DX11. and btw, all DX11 features is literally on OpenGL. Check this out https://www.opengl.org/wiki... Also, real dev who pushes hardware to limit doesnt even use this. They "code to metal" on PS4 and Xbox One to push it to limits. Then, all it really matters is how much power you got? and Xbox One has far less.
Apparently devs don't even use DX11.2 yet in its entirety if at all so expect games to be using DX12 in about 4 years or more, for console anyway. Also, that awkward moment when the Day Z dev could be talking about anything lol.
I don't think many people are expecting improvements across the board. If u know tech at all you won't. But either way any improvements are a good thing. I mean 2 days ago everyone was saying the xbox wouldn't benefit at all because the systems were already done and out before dx12 was finished. So all the people that believed that are wrong.
@4sh0w You're right. DirectX uses Direct Input among other things to help programmers deal with different types of drivers and computers. It could probably still be helpful for consoles, though. Maybe save console devs some hardcoding. We'll see at GDC.
I don't know, I expect something like "d3d vs ogl" campaign all over again. Which means piling money on the PR and "ability" (ability as if it's better) while having very similar, while less returns as it's competitions. Yay!
So much downplaying here at n4PSg. This news isn't going to change the world but extra supported features are always welcome and if it helps xb1 thats a good thing even for Sony - because better toolsets for xb1 means better multiplats and that should mean the ps4 version won't need to be as badly "gimped" (if that happens) This should be good news for everyone
Yeah, N4G is the only place where good news is bad news
So what if its coming to Xbox One? IT means nothing really as devs will take a few years to get used to it just like with DX11 meaning if they do use it games won't look as good as DX11. Also you gotta understand how these things work to understand how well they will help a console and the fact is it wont help the xbox one at all at least not from a graphical standpoint. It may make games look better but it will take a bigger hit to hardware than DX11. The BIG plus side is porting PC DX12 games will be a lot easier as they won't be forced to remake in DX11. So it means less chances of devs just saying I CBA making an xbone version because its too much hassle.
Directx 12 will provide a low level graphics AI and a higher level API that abstracts the functionality of the lower level API. Therefore the higher level API should not be too different from DirectX 11. DirectX 12 is basically an improved version of DirectX 11.x that the Xbox One currently uses and it will be added with a software update. Developers will then be able to choose what API to use on Xbox One. I'm currently working with DirectX 11.2 and anxious to see what DirectX 12 will bring to the table.
I said it in here weeks ago and got hundres of disagrees..... DirectX 12 will bring the possibility to put a whole 1080p picture in the 32mb-ESRAM-Framebuffer. So 1080p will be standard.
FYI: Neither Mantel nor OpenGL exits for (next Gen) consoles. PS3 offers a PSGL API based on OpenGL/ES (incl. CG support).
If you say so pal.
This could be one of the upcoming features the dayz dev was talking about. I guess we will know more at GDC.
Can someone explain to me what this actually means? I'm such a noob when it comes to things like this. How can a new SDK and Directx12 improve weaker hardware? Genuine question. How much of a performance boost would this grant and HOW are my main questions.
this from reddit DirectX is a performance interface that the xbox utilizes. It's designed to handle processes executed by your GPU. In theory, as DirectX is optimized, it's designed to get a little bit more out of the hardware you're using, namely graphics.
Not necessarily weaker hardware, just some key poor choices, stiff design. It is close to PS4, but at same time, miles away due to key choices. No doubt devs will get better with it, and tools to help, but still, MS certainly dropped the ball on X1.
Simply put, a more efficient API will allow developers to access more power with less effort. The most efficient code is machine language and since you can't expect developers to write advanced graphics engines in machine code, the next besr thing is an API that can do the low level talking for you. For Example, when it was reported that the ICE team had increased tiling performance, the developer also noted that he had written the code in ASM, which is a low level code that is closer to machine code than C. This updated library will become part of the new API that increases the efficiency of higher level development.
In short... Code Compression
On June last year MS showed a presentation where they had a GPU with a 16MB memory limit and used it to stream 6GB worth of textures. This will be the future of gaming. I'm pretty sure the XO was made with Directx 12 in mind, that would explain the ESRAM and the tile move engines. Interesting..
@autocad I would avoid reddit for definitions lol.
The problem with DirectX and OpenGL ( and anything similar ) is that there are layers of higher level code so that developers don't have to deal with technicalities such as machine specific code. Because of these layers you are adding more overhead to your processing. It takes longer because of more added data that needs to be processed. Consoles don't change hardware so developers can actually program closer to machine code instead of having all those extra layers to abstract hardware specifications. This doesn't exist on PC's because of all the hardware configuration. That's why you need that level of abstraction. But MS ( as well as the developers of OpenGL)is trying to do what AMD did with Mantle. OpenGL and DirectX are not just meant for games. So the API's served their purpose. But it seems like both DirectX and OpenGL are getting an overhaul to optimize code so it's closer to machine code. Less Overhead, more speed.
They are cutting the fat off of the steak. Optimization happens across the board... Oh, it's you Lukas, I totally bought into this like you didn't know,... Lol, well said. Still, hardware is like a pool while software fills that pool. Software can only try to maximize hardware, not increase it. So, yes, this helps, but how does it help when comparing hardware.
The problem is with DX is MS have a bad habit of using DX updates to just add new features ( like realistic fire and atmosphere) to the engine rather than optimize it. If anybody ever remembers DX10 it was horrid! You needed 5X the hardware specs to run games in DX10 mode for only 1X times the graphics.. Here's a great example http://www.bit-tech.net/gam... Those thinking this will help Xbone get better looking games by using less hardware are in for a shock as MS has a bad habit of going the opposite way..
So DirectX12 is coming to X1. What exactly does that mean again?
my thoughts too..guess we have to wait a few weeks to see...what exactly.
OK, I've been trying to answer that question myself, at first I thought it was just a new tool for pc development, but looks like I was wrong, since micro press release say its: "better tools so that you can squeeze every last drop of performance out of your PC, tablet, phone, and console." http://www.gamespot.com/art... http://www.pcworld.com/arti... Im not sure what that means for X1 but I guess we'll find out as GDC. I think it might just be improving X1 drivers a bit but sounds like its going to be huge for pc, because it seems alot of pc sites I just read are pretty excited since the last major update was way back in 2008.
Imagine streaming 6GB worth of texture memory with only 32MB physical memory on hardware. That's what it means. MS showed it on a Directx 11.2 presentation on June last year, this is not magic. Let's just say the XO was made for Directx 12.
Not a whole lot. SonofGod is going mad like it is some sort of revolution, when it isn't. For example the feature he talks about in this thread shown for DirectX 11.2 (which Xbox One ALREADY supports) was tiled resources, which was announced several years behind an AMD extension in OpenGL called AMD sparse texture. There is nothing Xbox One can or will be able to do that Playstation 4 cannot replicate (and probably run faster) if a programmer really desires. 'Partially resident textures' are not a new thing by any means. Although Microsoft are trumpeting them, it is because they are new to DirectX specifically. Playstation 4 however supports them in hardware. All AMD GCN GPUs do, of which PS4's is the fastest AMD GCN GPU in the current gen consoles. Certainly PS4's texture fillrate is better than Xbox One's. The technique itself has been around for years and hasn't been used too much, for various reasons. As with anything there are upsides and downsides. It's not a magic playing field levelling bullet. Nothing is. http://www.anandtech.com/sh... Have a gander at this. Look and sound familiar SonofGod? This article is over 2 years old. Note the bit at the bottom? "As D3D is not normally extensible it’s really only possible to easily access the feature from other APIs (e.g. OpenGL)" Sooooo...it's been a feature in OpenGl for years, and D3D hasn't supported it. Until now. Which is why you only just learnt about it and think it's a revolution and new.
Here is DX9 vs DX11 on Crysis 2... in short, it makes a difference lol. http://youtu.be/ON8fU2RWyK4 Oh and DX10 was only used for Xbox 360 as a custom API but you could download it for 32bit Vista as well
It just means that it might get a some new features that DX11+ doesnt have and maybe make some other ones more efficient. But DX isnt that efficient to begin with and you lose alot of performance for it. Sure its great for a dev to only have to program to one API and then let the hardware's raw power take care of the performance but when it comes to consoles, you dont really want DX (unless your priority is PC to X1/X1 to PC ports. For a console though you would prefer a custom API written to take as much advantage of the hardware its written for as possible (as close to the "metal" as possible). That way you can squeeze as much performance out of it as possble. @SonofGod, sourgrouch and Gutz Youse are all showing your ignorance. Gutz, 360 used DX9 with "SOME" DX10 features, and by some im talking about like 2 features. SonofGod and sour you two obviously know nothing about what you're talking about and instead are just parroting back sh!t youse heard/read on the internet @vulcan Dont forget CUDA had it prior to DX too. To the MS fanboys, tiled resources is not new, like Vulcan said, AMD been had it and both consoles have basically the same hardware for it. And its nothing more than megatextures, already done on Rage on the PS3/360. Its not some revolutionary feature invented by MS, thats just them trying to hype it.
"Here is DX9 vs DX11 on Crysis 2... in short, it makes a difference lol. " Of course it does- because that is a PC implementation. Also there were over FIVE YEARS between DirectX 9c and DirectX 11. The difference between the DirectX APIs on WINDOWS also included a VAST array of hardware alterations in that time, which made things possible on DX11 class hardware formerly impossible on DX9 class hardware. Console implementation is a different thing. You can do pretty much whatever you want within the hardware's constraints because you have very low level control of the whole system. The Xbox One hardware is obviously fixed. therefore the difference between 11.2 now and 12 for a console will only be a refinement of the toolset which is only about 6 months old. Xbox One hardware may meet some standards of DX12 and benefit from a newer toolset, but it will (obviously) not include hardware changes. Xbox 360 met some requirements of DirectX 10 and benefitted from some of the features, but not all(and not the significant ones), because it's hardware was obviously fixed before that version of DirectX. Much like Xbox One and DX12. Whereas PC is free to introduce revised hardware specifications and have a more comprehensive implementation of DirectX 12 features.
It means the xbox1 will be aspowerful as 100 xboxes! Than add ClOuDz support and its 200 xboxes in one. Pc master race cant even touch the soon to be al mighty xbox.
It means that the graphics are going to run on a different platform and have one or two new tools. And that Xbox fanboys are going to pretend like this will vindicate eSRAM and make the graphics better, which it won't.
you thought pc games was ahead of console before wait til devs start us dx12. its like leap frog but the little kid is playing against Jordan
I'm no software engineer so correct me if I'm wrong please, but since the the PS4 runs on openGL, which from my understand is extremely customisable, doesn't that mean any rendering technique or compression algorithm dirext12 uses on the xbone the PS4 can also useif the developers code it themselves? Either way it's good to see both consoles improving. Can't wait to see the innovation in a couple of years.
In short yes! But, the PS4 wasn't made with this being the center, PS4 is relying on raw power. Xbox One was built with this in mind. Also OpenGL isn't DirectX. DirectX is the standard that everything else tries to imitate and follow.
What Ginesis said. The PS4 can do tiled resources, but at the expense of GPU/CPU cycles & maybe more memory. The XB1 it would seem was built to take advantage of these, with custom hardware to take the grunt off the GPU/CPU & free up resources/cycles. So in the end both systems can do it, just one can do it easier than the other. Also DX takes a lot of the hard work away from the devs, not sure if OpenGL does the same. Tiled resources, I can't wait for, imagine a game where everything you look at its super high rez, yet running on nothing more than 16mbs of ram, mind would boggle. The new Halo will probably utilise this, if not then there bloody mad.
right and wrong my friend. PS4 uses PSSL a very custom blend low level API developed by Sony. Its core is based on Open GL or OpenES, but its features surpass DirectX11. Not sure how DX12 compares. I assume Sony can patch in the same elements if they see them useful. Its also features a 2ndary wrapper API that is pretty comparable to OpenGL/DX. That works with the low level API or so I believe. PS4 was designed to adapt to DirectX11/11.1 code very well I do believe. The advantage of fixed hardware means that the API can be adapted to do special tasks with the hardware pretty easily. So I wouldn't rule the PS4 out of doing the same things XB1 can do even with DX12. @Ginesis DX is Microsoft's API. Most games that run in Windows utilize it, but not all. OpenGL, OpenCL and so on are used elsewhere with Mac, and Linux, and also in Windows. Rage, and Minecraft are two examples of OpenGL based games. Now with Steam Machines/SteamOS we could see some developers shift to a more universal API to put their games on more platforms with less cost for porting to new code. Well if SteamOS gains any momentum. There is also AMD's Mantle which AMD says will be even better than OpenGL/DirectX for gaming on Linux/Windows.
If you care about power then get a pc or even a decent laptop as both consoles are outdated(outdated day 1) and have laughable performance.
When Sony's 1st and 2nd party devs put the games on those devices maybe some will consider it. Atm, I have been good with console gaming since Atari 2600. "Laughable performance." Smh. I and many others DO NOT CARE about pc's uber duper performance. We enjoy our PS4's, Xbox 1's, and Wii U's just fine. Thx 4 ur concern tho.
Im mainly a pc gamer and love my xbox. He who games on one system misses out on the most games
Here's the clencher.. No GPU yet supports Direct x 12. Not even Maxwell. So good luck with that on the X1. Talk about hype. And direct x 12 isn't such a win for a console anyway. The only reason MS are starting to talk about direct X 12 is because PC optimization sucks, MS have been lazy in a PC gaming monopoly, and now Mantle has shown what optimization can do to a PC if developers give MS and the unoptimised mess that is direct X the middle finger.
Plus, Steam OS and Steamboxes coming out, could putting more pressure onto MS to react. If they loose their share of the market in the PC platform to a contestant, they will loose their position of dominance in the gaming sector overall.
It's hard saying things like that to console gamers. Specifically, gamers who never/very rarely game on pc. I saw it at gamestop when I worked there. They couldn't explain composite cables vs standard AV cables. One a##-wipe left in a puff when I was trying to make sure it was component (vs hdmi) by asking, "5 prongs or 1 plug?" He would just say, "HD ON MY WII?" (Not wii U) - the Wii doesn't natively support hdmi and he didn't know if needed component or hdmi for hd when some tvs go hdmi only. WHY CAN'T YOU TELL ME HDMI OR COMMITMENT OR COMPOSITE? Tech savvy is rare, even amongst gamers...
Yeah, I drank too much in the comment above, sue me.
My god..all the disagree's. Shows how much people actually know around here
XO dx12 compatibile? Now this makes me think if all the rumors about tiled and mind blowing halo graphics might be true. Well, quantum break does look amazing (stated on official website it was all real time)
Can't wait for tiled resources on Direct X 12 on Xbox one.
Tiled Resources, ray tracing and more incoming :)
also in terms of optimization on porting, xbox could get closer to pc in terms of architecture and allowing feature sets
Tiled resources already exist in DirectX 11.2, which Xbox One currently supports as of right now. Tiled resources is similar to an existing extension in OpenGL.... Ray Tracing isn't something exclusive to any version of DirectX. You could do it on PS3, if you wanted to. Gran Turismo did. It was just pretty slow as it kinda is today. Ray Tracing is a bit of hyped up technique for games, but that's a different story. Neither are being 'added' if you must know. This is an improved API for the console. It isn't unlocking some hidden wunder features the console couldn't necessarily already do if developers put the effort in. Potentially it'll just make it easier for developers to access some features. The hardware isn't changing, what it can do isn't changing, just how developers can work with it is being modified. For the better? Possibly. But it takes time for this sort of thing to mature. It takes time for PC developers to get their heads around it as well, often new versions of DirectX are under utilised and badly optimised for quite a while. Such is the downsides of legacy support.
Ray Tracing??? Do you know what computing power needs to run Ray Tracing in full force???? Even the best high-end PC's can't run Ray Tracing today. Not yet.
Wow a xbox comment with more agrees then disagrees how did you do it your amazing
And what a difference that will make. /s
Trust me, it will. This is the future of gaming on all platforms. It's not just about hardware anymore.
Should I trust you if I'm a Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim?
@SonofGod " Trust me, it will." I'm sorry but I don't trust you at all as you are ranting and regurgitating hype about which you seem to know very little. I intend to reserve the bestowing of my trust for those more worthy of my respect. You have to remember that the reason mantle was created in the first place is because Microsoft did such a poor job of keeping software optimised on the PC. The only reason the XBO has the hardware modifications to allow these features is because if it didn't it wouldn't be possible to run some of the features at all on the weaker silicone. Another case of "catch-up" rather than an advantage.
The cloud is not being used to create better lighting. Its being used to make adaptive AI and shared simulation. Anything that can be translated with a 3D space coordinate and timing will be used. Great if you want enemies that feel real, bad if you want amazing visuals.
Alright, I'm going to hold off buying a new video card is DX12 is coming out later this year.