Sony, who has recently come under fire for changing its terms of service to ban the resale of PlayStation 4 games, except under stringent conditions, has possibly changed their minds.
You'd have to be crazy to impose a policy where you can't sell your own games... Oh, wait...
Ooooh, ok. You mean steam? I love steam, as they give me amazing deals on games.
4. Software is Licensed 4.1. All Software is licensed, not sold, which means you acquire rights to use the Software, as described in these Terms, but you do not acquire ownership of the Software. If you do not comply with these Terms, we can terminate your Software Licence which means you will no longer have the right to use the Software. This is bullshit... I won't buy a single PS4 game.. i'll rent every single game. and for all of you who want to sell your games: 7. Resale 7.1. You must not resell either Disc-based Software or Software Downloads, unless expressly authorised by us and, if the publisher is another company, additionally by the publisher. The only good part is in the text recording and voice recording, which is saved on their data server only to be used in accordance with law and if police require it. Meaning they don't record it for their own private commercial gains or for ads. 14. Are we monitoring PSN? 14.1. Yes but we can't monitor all PSN activity and we make no commitment to do so. However, we reserve the right in our sole discretion to monitor and record any or all of your PSN activity and to remove any of your UGM at our sole discretion, without further notice to you. Your use of PSN and our community features may be recorded and collected by us or sent to us by other users as described in 13.1. Any information collected in this way, for example, your UGM, the content of your voice and text communications, video of your gameplay, the time and location of your activities, and your name, your PSN Online ID and IP address, may be used by us or our affiliated companies to enforce these Terms and the SEN Terms of Service, to comply with the law, to protect our rights and those of our licensors and users, and to protect the personal safety of our employees and users. This information may be passed to the police or other appropriate authorities. By accepting these Software Usage Terms, you expressly consent to this.
Look up any terms of service. The same language of "all software is licensed, not sold" will be found for every piece of software since the late '80s, even open-source software. But you can't expect forum warriors to understand basic copyright laws. If a company (in this case, Sony) literally "sold" you a piece of software, then it would be legally be yours to reverse engineer, break apart, mod, source the assets, and otherwise do whatever you want with it. Therefore, it isn't the TOS people need to keep an eye on. It's the "enforcement" policies. In other words, does Sony have a system in place to block the re-sale of their discs? Yes or no? If yes, then we're in trouble. If no, then it's business as usual. That's why the XBox One's original policies came under fire. It wasn't the TOS (which was pretty much the same as it always had been). It was the enforcement policy.
@aCasualGamer - I think 4 is more so they are protected against piracy, meaning you can't ever claim that you have modified the software because you own it. As many people have managed to argue this point when it comes to modifying the actual consoles and won legal cases because of it. Point 7, no idea, it is at the very least, worded very badly, but I am 100% sure that there will be zero restriction on selling the games in the near future. They made too big a deal of it at E3 to be able to backtrack, and they proved that people want to sell their games. Point 14, to be expected. MS will also do this, as will Nintendo. They have to protect their users from the minority of malicious users who might be causing issues for others. Brings up some privacy concerns, but as long as you aren't stupid, it won't affect you.
This likely is just their Digital titles it applies too. Although I suspect they have a plan against pirates. So this could relate to that. This is just legal crap they throw in the policy. Who the hell reads it? Not me. I just play.
Steam only works in the current market state. If all console games go the way of steam, steam's amazing prices will rise.
@gaffyh and @dedicatedtogamers On point 4.... I get what you're saying. I thought they meant, "you don't own it... so we can shut if off whenever we like and you can't do anything about it". Basically, if i bought a game.. and started playing... but later on, perhaps a year later, they want to disable the game from being played and they do so without me having anything to say about it.. because i don't own it. Which means they could, legally, disable me from playing the game without anyone notifying me and i would be powerless to do anything because i don't own it. They should use another term, because the traditional terms don't suffice. License still means i'm powerless in legal terms. BUT... i get what you're saying. The policy language they're using is necessary inorder to prevent engineers taking advantage of their codes. My mistake. On point 7... Think in long terms. Licenses don't have the same rights as ownership of a product. You can't say, "hey it's my right to sell this licensed game" but you can say "hey, it's my right to sell this owned game". There is a difference. Yeah, you're right they probably won't do that.. but this are companies we're talking about, with lots influences from publishers. I mean, there is a reason Jack Tretton said "we can't dictate what other publishers do with their games, in terms of selling and playing preowned games"... He could've just said, "We won't allow any publisher to put their games on our system if they misuse the rights of our customers". I guess they didn't say that because the publishers don't misuse the right when it's a license. They CAN say "you're not allowed to resell our license" but they CAN'T say "your not allowed to resell your product". Get it? That's why i'm a bit eary about the not "owning" part of their policy. Because it may look obvious that they won't use their rights to disable reselling now, but 2-4 years from now might be another story alltogether. And what are you supposed to do then? When you already have bought your console.
@Casual. The software laws are on absolutly everything and has been for a very long time. And the other law is to protect us users. These sort of laws are common pratice and people with a lack of understanding of terms and conditions shouldn't try and blow it out of proportion. Edit: @Casual (Second reply) Nice to see a N4Ger take in counter arguments.
@gamingcapacity Yeah, i might of been a bit to angry about point 4 considering that Sony went all out against Microsoft policies and i just thought for a brief moment that Sony were doing a u-turn. But i get it now, that it's common language. On point 14... I'm really glad that they say nothing about our information being used for commercial endevours and ads implementation a la Google and Youtube. Which means any misuse of our information and you can use your rights to sue Sony. (Not that i'¨m anti Sony, i would expect the same thing from Microsoft)
^But it's true, all software is licensed, as far back as the Atari. If you bought Pong, you don't own Pong. You can't reverse engineer it and claim it is yours. No. You can only play it and that's it.
@aCasualGamer "4. Software is Licensed 4.1. All Software is licensed, not sold, which means you acquire rights to use the Software, as described in these Terms, but you do not acquire ownership of the Software. If you do not comply with these Terms, we can terminate your Software Licence which means you will no longer have the right to use the Software. " If you had a business major, you would know exactly what this means. It means that you have the right to play the game, but you cannot make your own game based on that license. (AKA, you can play Call of Duty, but you can't make a Call of Duty game since it's owned by Activision who owns the license) 7. Resale 7.1. You must not resell either Disc-based Software or Software Downloads, unless expressly authorised by us and, if the publisher is another company, additionally by the publisher. Again, when the last time you sold off a PS Store game? (Digital Download) The keyword is Software which means you cannot make copies of your own game and resell them. You can resell your disc. But remember, all games are being played on the HDD, which means you can make multiple copies (installation) from a disc. You can resell your Hardware (AKA the Physical copy of the disc)
Yoshida is stating a single 'No'. No means no. He didn't say "I will check into that", or "We are looking at possibilities". He said 'No'. As in 'No you are not impaired or restricted in your ability to sale PS4 games'. No means No. Some people here wouldn't last 5 minutes around a drunk person without going to jail.
Why is nobody telling me why they disagree with me? Steam has the best prices, and that's a fact. Not opinion. That's because they don't let you sell your used games. It creates a better market for Devs, and they tend to give awesome deals because of that. I would rather buy a new game for the price of a used one, than sell my used ones. I guess no one else likes that idea.
@XB1_PS4 It works for steam but all the digital content (which can't be sold) on the PS3 and 360 right now is sky high. You pay more for it than a physical copy. I'm not sure why they sell it for a higher price but it's probably not to piss off the retailers that sell their consoles for them. Total guess. I understand that retailers make very little on consoles and make more off of software. To be undercut by the Sony/MS on the software will give them less incentive to sell their hardware.
@ XB1_PS4 I dont want to sound like a hater, but steam is crap.. its nice to have less value on games.. but in reality, you dont own nothin and all your money is gone forever and ever after.. I buy my console games mostly new and when I finish the game, I resell it or trade it for 5$ at my local store, while it has some value.. I mostly get back 85% of my money.. Im too old to keep all my games.. I never have time to replay them anyways... well games like GT5 and GTA5 etc., I would never sell.. e.g... my last deal was very special... I buyed latest COD ghosts.. realized it was crap again.. then just trade it for BF4.. I spent 55 + 5 $ on 2 brand new games.. its not like I will ever need that crap cod again! I hardly doubt you could ever get 2 brand new games on steam for that price.. the best part is that I can trade or sell forever.. and the value for my games only gets cheaper and cheaper.. while on steam.. all your money is going down the toilet.. pfff..
what platform lets you resell digital content? not xbox, not playstation, not IOS, not Android, not Wii
@XB1_PS4 Wait man as much as i Love steam and have a hefty account with them mainly Due to there awesome sales. Steam ain't ever gonna jeopardise our digital sales man Now MS thats different story they interested in Money only Money oh and beating the competition witch is sony and will NEVERRRRRR Happen... Sony is not against reselling your games because there for the gamers as much as Buisness.
@Ultimate master "If you had a business major, you would know exactly what this means." Do you go around expecting everyone on the web to have a business major? I don't have a business major so it shouldn't be a big surprise to you that i might have misinterpreted their policies. But then again, policies shouldn't be written to business majors, it should be written to the layman and the general gamer ("casual gamer" Lol). But hey, i can admit where i made a mistake. The one thing i don't like though is how there is a grey zone where they could be both right and wrong about owning/not owning a piece of software. What if they decide to delete the game or make it unplayable on my PS4? Doesn't that make it wrong?
lol this article headlines be making it sound so dramatic and interesting to read then you click through and all you see is "no" and go -___-
The title is just wrong as it implies Sony denied the policy but the denied the DRM (different thing). I am surprised people think this is new stuff. We have had this stuff (and wording) for years in gaming and outside of gaming (important to say we licence the content as it stops people claiming they molded it. Software is a tricky thing)
Exactly... The good old Bait and Switch
Ms fanboys are going crazy over this, the fact is there is NO DRM .. I can buy and sell any game i want.
i think sony fanboys are burning they all make hade make fun of ms ,i know that it will happen someday but soo soon ,wtf oh only diiference is that ms does that months back and sony is doing it now ,its realy bad for sony i remember the day when that japenese yoshida made fun of ms now i think in a teaser billgates will give a xb1 game bluray to major nelson ,i was nowing some day sony will turn and show their darker side more truths are to be revealed.
Hmmm...so I read the original Polygon article this referenced, and it seems to me that the licensed software part is pretty much what it's been for the past 10 years at least. In this though, any game brought is under a different TOS, so this TOS is referring to software provided with the console, or free from the servers. I know most apps have their own TOS, however. It's pretty obvious Sony would not let someone own their OS or built in apps/services on the console. They are part of the system, and the licence is linked to the system I also read the part that this monitoring clause that the article is actually about refers to, and I find it a glaring omission on Polygon's part to not include it, since it deals expressly with "grief reporting". In other words, it's there to help moderate against abuse by other players, not a way to collect and sell data to the highest bidder. For your convienance, directly from Sony's TOS "13. Reporting from games we publish 13.1. To assist you in our Games and for functionality we provide via our Authorised Systems (e.g. PSN messaging), we include grief reporting mechanisms where we think they might be most relevant. For example, you'll see a report option next to messages you receive on PSN and in-game reporting tools in each of the games we publish, if that game offers the ability to share UGM. If you use the most proximate grief reporting tool, when you submit the report, you may also be able to send us applicable evidence which will help us assess your report. For example: 13.1.1. if you report a PSN message, when you send us the report you will also send us a copy of the message you are reporting and any attachment to it; and 13.1.2. if you grief report a game asset or level that someone created, when you send us the report you might also be able to send us the asset or level. Of course, this means other people can grief report you and your UGM too." Good job at getting hits though Polygon. Bad job at MS fan boys who are trying to turn this into something it most definitely isn't. Neither the DRM, nor the collection of data is anything like what MS was/is trying to do. It wasn't even implied by Sony in the least.
I knew it. Why do these conspiracy theorists keep trying to create drama? Sony confirmed no DRM back in February and yet people like MisterXMedia continue to cling to straws on this topic. How many times does Sony have to say this? This was in the same TOS of the PS3, nothing new. Links to confirmation of no DRM: http://www.eurogamer.net/ar... http://www.eurogamer.net/ar... @xHeavYx, tell me about it. I guess it's also to get traffic.
Well, when facts don't back up your claims, you have to either accept defeat or start rumors like this one
FACTS..... PSSsssh who needs em /s
What's funny is the fact that the Terms and Services are basic. Hell even DVD/Blu-rays have a type of this Terms of Service. If you want to sell your game you will be able to. They just put this in there so if someone is copying and selling games they have someway to shut them down. You really think Sony cares you sell your game to a friend? Apparently not since they deny it at every level
The original polygon article isn't even a rumor. It's a twisting of the facts to garner hits for it's website. Things were left out, and it ignored the fact that each game purchased has it's own TOS. The actual topic of the article is even more misleading by implying that Sony is going to record all your info and sell it like MS gives the user to opt-in to. I dunno, how obvious does it have to be before a site can be banned from being posted on this site? @Lukas below I read this and had the page open for the other rumor article but haven't read it yet. It took me all of 2 minutes to realize how agenda driven the polygon article is, either to show favor to MS, or to just get hits for their site. Sadly, this whole thing will now get linked to argue, "Sony does it too".
I was saying it all day today that people are taking this way out of proportion and all i got was people accusing me of being a Sony sympathiser. All people had to do was a little research or use some common sense before exploding and saying "ZOMG Sony is teh DEVIL!".
This. Even when you show them facts like this, they'll say stuff like 'What do you expect them to say?' Just because MS was going to do DRM, doesn't mean Sony would. They confirmed no DRM at the PS4 reveal, at least twice before E3 and at E3, the biggest gaming event of the year. Why would they lie to the masses?
because MICROSOFT ARE SCARED!! They have their allies creating as many negative stories as they can dream up trying to tear Sony down during launch week. But just wait until the week of XB1 launch... they are not the only ones who can play that game.
Really? You think Microsoft are scared of Sony? How old are you 14? If anything the state Sony are in they would be the ones who are scared if anything I mean look what they have been jumping all over when it comes to the Xbox one. Sony lost a lot of market share to Microsoft and Nintendo last year and because of the state Sony as a company is in at the moment they have to play a careful game in terms of what they offer and do as they can not afford the PS4 to have poor sales where Microsoft can. As for the DRM I see both Sony and Microsoft brining it in at some point as it dose have some big plus points over the way games are used now.
The funny thing is that Sony stated they wouldn't implement DRM months before the E3 announcement and people didn't want to believe them. Still fanboys want people to think that if only to pint them in as bad a light as MS willfully stepped into then out of.
I remember the VP of SCEA saying that you could play games old school style. Aka Without an internet connection. And this was said in February. Nexus 7 2013
This is why i only believe in yoshidas words. Its also funny how ppl make a big deal on ps4/x1 when other devices suck as cellphones has the same polocies if not almost the same polocies so you should be more worried about your phones lol not a home console.
That's not a clarification.
Dude, you realize it's the same policy that has been on the PS3 for the past 7-8 years?
That is not important. He clarified nothing.Why is that still in the TOS then?
Why would you need another clarification? This has been discussed a hundred times already.
Sorry for the wall of text but straight from The official PlayStation 4 FAQ....Dont no clearer than this Does PS4 support used games? Yes, similar to the PS3 system today, PS4 will not restrict players from playing disc-based used games. When a gamer buys a PS4 disc, they have right to use that copy of the game, so they can trade-in the game at retail, sell it to another person, lend it to a friend, or keep it forever. Furthermore, users will not have to go through activation steps or be charged usage fees when playing used disc-based games on their PS4 system. Will any PS4 titles use an Online Pass? First-party titles on PS4 (titles developed by Sony Computer Entertainment) will not use an Online Pass program. When it comes to third-party titles, PlayStation won’t dictate the strategy of publishers concerning Online Pass programs. However, most third parties have phased out the use of Online Pass systems, so they’re unlikely to appear on PS4. Can PS4 customers lend and borrow games? Yes, they can lend and borrow disc-based games without restriction. Can PS4 customers trade and sell games? Yes, they can trade and sell disc-based games freely.
Would of been suicide for Sony to even think about this, glad Yoshida cleared it up.
But Polygon, the MS funded website said the opposite. The bad press for MS has really been making these journalists dig deep for bad Sony news.
Why does the "Read Full Story" link always seem to lead to Twitter in cases like this when it would probably be better to link to the actual article? Seems silly to click the link and get a one word answer to a question.
It's stupid to hear from the horses mouth when you can be getting the story from these wonderful journalists with such great integrity. /s
Sony clarifies a rumor, everybody is like "duh". MS clarifies a rumor, everybody is like "MS lies!, DRM is coming back!, Don't trust MS!"
As one sided as it sounds. People question Microsoft's motives solely based on the way Microsoft handles rumors and speculation. I suppose you will disagree with me but look at the history the past 8 months or so..It's been a downward spiral it really has.
Wrong reply. Edited
do you lack knowledge? microsofts motives on how they intend to use drm is clearly different from its competitors. Did you not see what happened to moolight because he was stoked to get his console early? banned from gaming online and offline and can't acess his consoles settings.
These policies have always been in the software ToU, they just aren't inforced. Legally they can block the resale of games since we lease the software, we do not own it. This isn't new and nothing to get excited about. There is no easy way to block used sales without the publicity nightmare it brings. This is why both Microsoft and Sony are pushing digital. With digital the expectations are different and they can enfore the ToU without the backlash disc based media can give. Same ToU, same "rights", completely different perception by gamers.
Exactly this & why physical needs to stay as long as possible IMO especially because high speed internet is not yet widely available to everyone.
Yeah, I'm a collector so physical is my preferance. I liked the compromise Microsoft had originally. Buying the retail disc based version and then ripping it for all the perks of a digital copy. I also had no problem with the 24 hour verification, but do know not everyone has the same capability. It would be nice to be able to opt into something like that, but the chances of being abused/pirated is too high.
You're right. However, in this case the clause is referring to software installed on the System by Sony, or provided by Sony. It is not meant for secondary software(ie. retail games), as each of those has their own TOU. However, similar language exists for almost every game released, however it's rarely enforced. Digital is a completely different beast though, and even those you agree to individual TOU when purchasing to prevent it's resale. Best way to think of it is, Digital licenses are linked to the account/machine, Physical licenses are linked to the disc/mem card itself(although not legally correct, that's how it works in practice). With physical games you are selling the license with the media, even though you aren't usually allowed to per the TOU. This whole rumor was based on something that had nothing to do with system wide DRM to block the sale of used games.
Basically they own the software people. Its a privilege for gamers to be able to trade and sell them. If they wanted to, they could put an end to it. It's not you your software. Basically, the days of buying games from places like gamestop will be coming to a end whether people like it or not. I can't blame them. You can allow someone to rip you off for so long.
They would have to sell digital cheaper than $60 a pop. U make it $30 and we'll talk.
What if digital is your only choice? http://www.playstationlifes...
Releasing on Xbox One and PS4 digital only. It's priced in your budget, but not necessarily a full release. Are you willing to pay for episodic content like this?
You own the licence to use the software that is on the disc, and per the TOU you are usually not allowed to transfer that licence to someone else. While legally binding, it has never actually been enforced to my knowledge for video games. It's been like this for a long time, and if they tried to enforce it, I could blame them easily, because I have ripped nothing off from them in the first place. In case you missed it, Sony did state quite clearly, with quite the flare I might add, that the user is allowed to transfer the licence, along with the media that contains the software for retail games. They could change that sure, but that would be worse than MS trying to block it in the first place, since many people brought into the PS4 for that reason alone. It's not worth the PR fallout that would come from it. It's a privilege you say? See how well that went over for MS when they tried to take that privilege away. You really are a joke. Corporate apologists who cares nothing for your own rights as a consumer, and lets corporations do whatever they want because of some insane brand loyalty. To me, it's a privilege for the developers that I spend any money in the first place to buy their games.
this is all spam!!i dont think sony's stupid enough to do that. even after they said it at the E3 conference
Additionally, the terms state users cannot re-sell "disc-based software or software downloads" unless authorized by Sony. Keyword here: "unless authorized by Sony" The official PS4 Ultimate FAQ which is hosted on a Sony owned website, written by a Sony employee, and proof-read by a higher up states that you can indeed sell your games. Can PS4 customers trade and sell games? Yes, they can trade and sell disc-based games freely. Source - http://blog.eu.playstation.... *I'm linking to the EU Playstation site because the Polygon article links to the TOS for Sony UK. In other words, this means that all PS4 game owners are indeed authorized to sell their games as they wish. If Sony wants to go back on this, you can take it to court.
You can take anything to court, but can you win? Part of the ToU states Sony can change the ToU at any time. This wouldn't even need changed since the ToU is clear. If they decide to enforce it they can at any time.
Once again, no need to jump the gun. Nothing has changed and Sony isn't going to stop you from trading in games. What we will see is digital becoming the standard and physical copies no longer available in time. This way trading is no longer an option and the policies won't need enforced since the option will be gone.
Sony stated they have no plans of DRM for their games, but third parties can do as they wish. Same holds true on the Xbox. If third parties want to enact another form of DRM, it is up to them.
EULA or TOU have no legal weight what so ever in the European Union for instance. By law we have the right to resell or return anything we own, this right even extends to digital products! So fat chance that would ever going to fly, in Europe at least.
So does this mean that third parties can put DRM and block singleplayer content as well or is it just online content?
While I think you're right that digital will get pushed a lot more, I think it's going to be quite a while before we see physical media disappear. It's said that by next year, digital will only make up 34% of game spending, but that isn't broken down into actual full game sales. It includes DLC and micro-transactions, and possibly services fees such as XBL or PS+. Until that number gets high enough to where it is worth it to just cut out physical media there will be physical media. If there is any kind of significant profit from digital media, it will continue to exist. I only hope that MS and Sony don't go the Nintendo route and withhold retail releases or put out digital versions earlier to increase digital sales, as it skews the numbers over what people prefer. Just because people may cave and buy it, doesn't mean that it is what they really want, and to me that is what any company that produces consumer products should provide...the option to get what we want, how we want it. I do believe because of the fallout MS got over their used game policies, a lot more companies are going to be hesitant to push a game that completely restricts the user to a one owner rule. Even doing so poses the threat of legal action to define what is really owned by the consumer, something the courts have been willfully happy to ignore making a ruling on in the past. For the time being, I doubt most software companies are going to want to push that boundary, because it will have massive repercussions for the entire software industry should it not go their way.
Totally predictable....same dog different collar. Don't be naive!
So the same terms of service in place since the PS3 where you COULD sell/trade used games somehow dont allow you sell/trade used games on Ps4... This site should be banned smh
People are stupid. Especially those people who are clutching at straws just so they could hate on something as flawless as PS4.
Sony basically invented DRM. They were even caught using DRM to spy on their customers by using their products to install spyware on their customers' electronics.It was so bad