Apparently Xbox One is less powerful than what even Microsoft thought! Not only the recent surge of downgrades show Xbox One's real power but it also proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Ryse ran on a PC at E3.
it might be a downgrade or a "re balance" as the developer said but i don't know if he says the truth or simply damage controlling anyways, 85K polygons is still freakin phenomenal
Triangles not Polys. 85k tri would be around 21k Polys. Not Impressive.... now 150k Triangles....
Yea exactly. No only did they cut the Wow factor by half, they downgraded from 1080p to 900p
in engineering, a triangle is a polygon
In DirectX 11, all polygons are triangles so yes each model has 85k polys. Voxels are not supported. I know this because I'm writing a game engine using DirectX 11.
A polygon is a figure that has 3 corners or more. Poly stands for multiple and gon, I guess that stands for corners. So technically you can say triangles and polygons to describe the same thing, however a triangle is the smallest possible polygon. Edit: A circle isn't really round. Its just a polygon with an practically infinite numbers of corners. So that would be the "largest" polygon possible.
85k tris is 42k polys A tri is 3 sides and a poly is generally 4 sides however some people class tris as apart of the poly count. The character can still look as good as before depending on how well the textures/normal maps are, but still for this generation I'd expect a little more on main characters
a console that will last 10 years my ass developers already downscaling their games.
Are we taking some Tweet from a guy in Pakistan seriously?!?
How are you people getting these numbers? That's not how meshes work. A triangle is a polygon. What is the poly count of a single triangle in a 3D world? The answer is one. If you said some stupid number like 1/2 or 1/4th or anything else other than one you need to stop giving advice. A polygon by definition is something that consists of three or more edges, whatever your high school teacher taught you is wrong. From a rendering point of view you cannot turn two triangles into a single four sided polygon if they bend different ways. Go read this and get educated before you start spouting your bullshit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...
I don't think Microsoft was ready for E3 at all. Obviously the games were on PC. Its funny how Digital Foundry did a report afterwards and came to the conclusion that everything was running at 1080p and solid 60FPS. This is a bit deceiving. They could have saved alot of face by presenting their games at spec. That way they wouldn't look so bad in retrospect. Honestly, I think they always knew what they could do with the hardware THEY built, but they didn't want to look bad compared to the competition.
Traingles = polygons. Now with that being said. If you would read cryteks statement, they did it so they can further improve other effects such as shadows. It's a tradeoff. Also you will see 0 difference in downgraded model, it's still highest poly model for a character made in game, and as other slides state, NPC's also are made same way. Now here is an interesting pic, showing how much difference you will see. http://www.cgexplorer.com/_... Right model has HALF LESS verticles and it looks EXACTLY the same. Yey for normal maps. Now stop being so dramatic people, most of you have no idea how these things work, you just read numbers and think you are so smart.
Actually problem is not polycount but the problem is, why they did it in the first place like they showed titles using highend pc with nvidia cards, why? what's the catch? Ryse has been in development for nearly 2 to 3 years now, why suddenly this move now just before the launch. Why Microsoft a software giant couldn't able to fix the drivers or it's just an excuse. Think and decide yourself.
Rushed console ftl. They must have really fear Sony getting a headstart. I don't think MS is ready to release. They did survive a faulty Xbox 360 launch, so I don't think they're concerned at all. Xbox One buyers beware.
@BallsEye - "Traingles = polygons" Yes and no. They're sort of the same thing, and one can be converted to the other, but the numbers aren't equivalent. Triangles are the smallest polygons, so triangle count is always higher than polygon count.
You can't directly convert triangles to 'squares' though. A four sided polygon cannot curve, where as two tris can go separate ways. Most modelling and game engines convert everything to tris anyway, so when Killzone devs talk polys they may very well be talking the same polys as Ryse devs.
My friend, you are wrong on so many levels... It amazes me that you get more agrees than disagrees. People here are really pathetic. 85k polygons are just 85k triangles, since i doubt they use quads to depict the polycount. The way you are calculating is saying that they have tons of n-gons in their characters.
@ChrisW What do you mean by that!? Do you believe Pakistanis are subhuman or something? They cannot and should not be taken seriously? I am a Pakistani as well and most do not even know that because there is no difference. There are many highly educated, well-informed and accomplished Pakistanis that are better than you in every way. Pakistanis who speak English are usually highly educated and university graduates because average people do not know English. Get off your high horse and see humans as humans!
@harrypotter show me any dev that uses sqauares instaed of triangles.
@nirwanda - You can model an object in polygons (four sides+), and with the 3D software, automatically split these into triangles, and then make minor changes, although 3DS Max, and Maya will usually do the smoothing for you. So you could model a 40,000 poly object, and do the split, and it would create a 80k triangle object. So technically polygons and triangles are NOT the same thing because a polygon has more than 3 sides, HOWEVER, it depends on what the developer themselves refers to the triangle as, as they might just prefer calling it a polygon. I would guess that 85k is a triangle figure rather than a polygon figure. 150k seemed to be causing a lot of framerate issues for them so its probably a good thing that they dropped it down.
@BallsEye, why in that picture are they zooming in on the vein on his arm, the least detailed aspect of the models? I can for example easily see that the left model has more detail on the 6 bullets strapped to his chest, you can see the circles in the center of the bottom portion of the bullets. You can also easily see more detail on his elbow band on the left model, you see more vertical lines.
@gaffyh So many of you don't have a clue what you are talking about. A triangle IS a polygon. It is a three sided polygon, and it is really the only kind of polygon that modern game engines and game hardware works with. http://wiki.polycount.com/P... Artists will use quadrilaterals in modeling software because it is easier to model with quads, but it is always converted to triangles for use in engine. When Guerrilla gave the presentation about their engine and one of the slides listed the poly count for the characters they were of course talking about the triangle count--the two terms are used interchangeably in the industry. This was a presentation on their engine and of course they would give the poly count for characters as they appear in engine. They aren't going to list the poly count of models in z-brush or whatever because its irrelevant to what gamers actually see or what the engine is actually working with. Besides, why would any developer want to give out a smaller and less impressive number? Especially when the rest of the industry reports the poly count of characters as they appear in the game, not whatever it was in the modeling software.
a polygon is an inclosed figure. 3 is the minimum amount of sides needed to make a polygon! Dreamcast was the first console to use triangular polygons the second was xbox 360. nobody uses 4 sided polygons anymore
Here's a question. Are any of you really going to notice the amount of triangles, squares, octagons, tetrahedrons, or trapeziums in the character?
If that's true, doesn't that means kz shadowfall's poly count completely destroy this game?
Why are people making such a big deal about poly count? A good game is a good game. Graphics is nice icing on the cake, but first and foremost comes gameplay, story, and creativity, hand in hand.
This comment just proved that most of the fanboys blow steam out of their nostrils and spout false information.
@starchild - the link you posted proves that what I said is correct. A polygon IS NOT triangle, IT IS converted into a triangle by the game engine, which essentially splits it into two. I practically said the same thing you said in your post, but somehow you managed to think you said something different, I'm NOT saying that triangles and polygons are completely different things, just that one has four sides, and one has three, simple. And as I said, the Devs probably are used to calling triangles polys, which is where the confusion arises. I personally call a polygon a polygon, and a triangle a triangle, in my 3D models.
@stragomccloud You know why? Simply because they have no clue what they are on about. It's so obvious. 150k of polygons for a model was pretty much like, whoa! Now what are the trade-offs for that if it's just one character? And I was kind of iffy. But now it's reduced to 85k, STILL it is heft amount of polygons for a model, and probably a finer experience overall for better graphics. So this is nothing, I WANT MORE SP gameplay. Aren't we here for games?! If so, WTH are you guys complaining as if you know the hell your talking about? EDIT: Btw, this guy who wrote the article knows hell of what his talking about. Smart people would take this with a grain of salt and moved on...but you know how things turns out on this site. Fanboys, yes annoying. But Sony fanboys?! Boy are they on another low level of stupidity. As a PC gamer, I can still remember in how PS3 was far superior than PC. I'm talking about moonshot claims. Just ridiculous.
@gaffyh You are wrong. Start any 3d modeling program and have the polygon count and triangle count on. You have 1 triangle and 1 quad. Polygon = 2 triangle = 3 Now convert that to triangles polygon = 3 triangle = 3 Game engines can't use quads so it converts all quads to tris. If the game engine would allow quads the polygon count would be 2. @Death below Them crying about polys is kind of a joke. With a good artist your not going to see much of a difference between 150k tris to 85k tris. The question that proves it was running on pc's in E3 if the game was running perfectly at 150k tris with 60fps and at 1080p then why did they have to downgrade it to 85k, 30fps, 900p? Its because it wasn't running on xbone. But developers do this all the time when they reveal a game and its not actual ingame. They make it more prettier than it looks. Touch up images of the game is done alot also.
How people can say "rushed console" let alone write it is astounding. Both consoles have been in development for the same time. It's been almost 8 years since the last gen launched. If you consider the longest span in console history to be "rushed" something is seriously wrong with you.
Microsoft made the more technical console. Sony went with quick and simple with their approach. Both are based on the same AMD architecture. If you are still hung up on the high end PC's at e3, you have absolutely no clue how consoles and games are developed and should really keep quiet on the topic and maybe listen and learn. How many systems peak at launch? You guys are doing nothing for the industry with your constant spewing of bs. It's sad and insulting to the rest of us that atleast have a clue.
You want to do some good with your free time? Why not petition Sony to support Cerny's first attempt at a game system? It would be really nice tosee Sony acknowledge the Vita as something more than a remote for the PS4. Hands down most powerful handheld released. Worst support I have seen since the Virtual Boy. How is that not an issue?
At 85k triangles, Ryse still has double the triangles of the character models in Killzone SF. So you sony fanboys might want to get your priorities straight. Ryse is still the most graphically impressive next-gen title to date.
People here's the problem with articles like this, the facts. This game was never 60 frames per second that's a fact. "Performance-wise, the target is 30fps,-" http://www.eurogamer.net/ar... The developer never said triangles he said 85,000 polygons. This is another case of the PS4 not keeping up with this hardware if you remove moving the LODs that means your hardware is rendering each character at any 85,000 polygons per character. So that means that this hardware is rendering 2.5 times more polygons than PS4 that uses LODs so that it's hardware has a easier time rendering polygon characters. His original message is here. http://gearnuke.com/ryse-do...
@marcofdeath Killzone developers did say 40k polygons. Now there is some developers that say polygons they mean tris sometimes not. I do believe that 40k that was mentioned is in quads. So I believe its 80k. But will never know unless they say so.
@AsimLeonheart, Wow... kudos for tossing in the race card. Should have expected it... But since you state that you are Pakistani, then you know very well the ramifications for accessing "Anti-Islamic" material and understand the degree of difficulty that it takes for one to ascertain such information. With that in consideration, it's highly unlikely (IMO) that it's reliable information. [Edit: Oh, and it's from a TWEET for "harām" sakes! A one and a half line tweet!!!]
@Death: Both consoles have not been in development at the same time. PS4 began in 2007, Xbox One began in 2010.
@ gaffyh "The two common measurements of a game character's 'cost' are polygon count and vertex count. Polygon is interchangeable with triangle in these measurements, as GPUs only see vertices and triangles, not 4+ sided polygons." "When a game artist talks about the poly count of a model, they really mean the triangle count." "When a model is exported to a game engine, the polygons are all converted into triangles automatically." "Vertex count is ultimately more important for performance and memory than the triangle count, but for historical reasons artists more commonly use triangle count as a performance measurement." http://wiki.polycount.com/P... So why are you talking as if triangles aren't polygons and as if quadrilaterals are the only kind of polygon? In fact, triangles are the only kind of polygon really used in modern game engines. And again, why would any developer choose to list the poly count from within modeling software before the quads are converted to tris when it is only going to make their numbers look far less impressive? (since the rest of the industry gives the polygon/triangle count for the final in-engine models). I don't know why people fight so hard on this anyway. Both 40,000 and 85,000 polygons is a lot of polygons and with normal mapping and all the other techniques that are used you really aren't going to be able to likely see much difference either way. It's going to come down to the work of the artist, shaders and mapping techniques, lighting, and so on.
@a08andan: Well done, I assume you didn't look up the definitions because you said "you guess"... but you guessed absolutely right! Poly means many, gon means corner. Many corners, in greek. By definition a circle is not a polygon. Polygons are made up of straight line segments. Curved lines cannot be part of a polygon. Polygons are 3+ sided figures of closed-circuit line segments.
xharrypotterx has no idea wtf he is talking about yet he gets an "intelligent" bubble, haha thats n4g for you.
Every character in killzone sf has 40k polys, how many does every ryse character have? Plus it is semi open world with an insane amount of effects at one time and huge draw distance. And we haven't heard any updates on killzone in a while, things could have been changed for all we know. From the updated pictures the character models look much improved. The main character in ryse being twice the polys as every npc in SF doesn't mean the game is graphically superior at all. Also, when they talk about the 85k polys for the main character, are they talking at all times? They could very well be talking about when he does execution moves and the background becomes blurry.....
@scott182 "Also, when they talk about the 85k polys for the main character, are they talking at all times?" More likely yes. Probly do the same thing as uncharted 2. Drake was around 80k tris with no LOD. Drakes model was used as game and in-game cinematic. All other character models had different levels of LOD ranging 85,000k tris all the way down to 4,000 tris. I expect Ryse will do the same.
@gozer You are forgetting.... The Ryse figure is ONLY for the MAIN CHARACTER. Not the OTHER NPC's which have substantially less. The people you are fighting will NOT have the same fidelity as you, the main character has. So you are using the main character in Ryse and comparing it to the average NPC in KZ:SF. The two aren't the same. The other Ryse NPC's will have a lot fewer than the main character. How about comparing the average Ryse NPC versus average KZ:SF NPC? You will probably get an answer which flips which one is on top. Besides of course the 1080p/60 difference. As for gameplay, KZ:SF is a multiplayer shooter that would be a shock not to receive amazing reviews. As for Ryse, it will be shocking if it gets a 7 or 8 in reviews. Not to mention Ryse has been in development years longer.
@ Death. Couldn't have said it better myself. This stuff only matters to Fanboys. I don't like to comment much on this site, but you nailed it. Great observation. I wonder why you got more dislikes than likes?
@N4GDgAPc Holy cow, that's impressive for uncharted 2... That makes sense with the other characters having much less.
But but... teh dev kits.
Me - So what do u guys do for fun these days N4G lads - we count polys. More = better. Me - ya mum had a high poly count N4G lads - (>_<)
lol oh goodness now people thinking drake from uncharted had 80k polygons. The cutscene drake did not the ingame one. people dont even know what polygons means or lod.Killzone at max lod has 40k meaning on close up aka cutscenes! http://adam-fisher.devianta... female kz sf character model you can clearly see triangles case closed http://www.youtube.com/watc... at 2:41 they show you how lods work
@ chris, yes of course, its something negative about MS.... If this was about a PS 4 game, they would have hunted him down by now and sorted him out....
@jetlian This is the artist from Naughty Dog that did character models. The images are not working on the first page but if you go down he explains how much polys it is on the 2nd page. And he is talking about quads because model he is showing is all in quads. http://www.zbrushcentral.co... "Drake however never gets LOD.. except for multiplayer.. " "the models ranged a bit as well.. drake was around 37k .. chloe was at 45k at her highest... each level of LOD was cut in half with 3 different levels. lowest being around 2500 poly's.. " And also read this were they officially said there were 80,000k tri characters. http://www.psxextreme.com/p... "Our characters they typically have eighty thousand polygons in you know, one character, like the main character. In total- what we try to push through to the graphics chip at one point two million triangles that we try to draw every frame. We do a lot using the cell processor."
n4d they used 80k in cutscenes. also the 2 links are from 2 different people. one claims 37k as tops all the way down to 2.5k he never mentions 80k at all. the second one is talking about the game in full. ng showed the rendering farm themselves http://community.us.playsta... if ps3 alone could do it why not use just 1. making a video is easier than rendering a game in real time. next time you play uncharted when it goes from cutscenes to game you'll see the changes
@jetlin When you mention your poly count for portfolio you don't say poly count in tris. its in Quads. And didn't u read that Drake had no LOD model. They used the same model for cutscenes and in-game. " but single player is the high resolution model the whole time.. same model that is in the cinematics." The pics are down but the wireframe is shown in quads. It would probly be more in the 75k range for the character. When you model a character pretty much tris is unavoidable when modeling in quads.
This have to stop. As much as I hate RYSE cause it looks sucky there's one thing y'all have to understand: POLYGONS and TRIANGLES are the same thing.
85k with no loads is great
M$ need to draw a line under raising exceptions of the xbone right now! Gamers are a fickle bunch and will not tolerate being oversold an under developed piece of hardware!
XboxOne is $100 more and everything leads to the obvious that its inferior to the PS4. Plus, since E3 and to this day Microsoft is still in damage control because they continue to set an expectation that the XboxOne cannot live up to.
^^^^^^^ hmmmm ryse look waaay better the last deep down, the differences between the two screen are nothing, deep down was massively downgraded since the E3 trailer blind fanboys as always
We are blind, and fickle as gaelic said.... I would gladly spread my legs for whatever sony offers....
Thought it as the drivers that weren't up to date? There is no reason at all hardware wise that the X1 is 'THIS' much worse than the Ps4.
poor microsoft??? Poor consumers... . who are falling for it
Not when it was a 120-140. Smoke screens and awful communication has seriously put me off Xbox. Not only that, but they are not even focused on gamers.
Hey remember when Ryse was being compared to KZ:SF & Deep Down? Lol, what a joke huh? No longer 1080p, lost about half it's polygons, the gameplay is one of the worst I've ever seen, QTE. I can't take M$ serious, not even with the 360.
And still even NPC's in ryse got 2x more polys and few times the joints as main characters in KZ. Deep down? Are you seriously comparing that first Target Render? Please don't make me link you the newest gameplay. It looks nothing like the first trailer. If you believe DD will look like on e3 render, you are putting yourself up for a big let down. As good as the game is, the visuals are not on par with Ryse. Now let the disagrees from sheep rain fdown on me.
Ryse still beat KZ SF poly/triangle count by more than double. Ryse has much higher detail NPC than KZ and overall its graphics still look better than KZ if we're comparing.
@Balls eye The disagrees will come only because your wrong lol. First off only the main character in Ryse has a 85k triangle count. Secondly while a polygon and a triangle are almost the same thing, they are still different. Triangles are the smallest polygon. It just meets the bare minimum of what a Polygon is. I'm pretty sure if GG told us how many triangles they had for that standard soldier model, wasn't even a main character which always has a higher poly count, then it would be close to around 85k as well. I mean look at the level of detail in character models between KZ and Ryse. On virtually all accounts KZ has more detail but the game is also much more open and has more going on than Rise does. It also runs at full 1080p with 60fps on multiplayer and a stable 30fps with single. Ryse is not on the same technical level as Killzone.
dark your wrong. fps dont have main characters except in cutscene form. All your seeing from the main character is the gun and hands! actual ryse by design is on a higher tech level. action games require more memory than shooters. Action games have far more animation sets.
I thought it looked ok, maybe too many QTE's but I liked the look of it. If it was running on PC as claimed, hopefully it will release on PC.
@ballsEye You know almost every company makes a CG trailer for their games, DR3's first trailer was CG
@BallsEye Since when does a FPS need more polys when you don't really see the main character anyway lol. Nothing against the Xbox console but Ryse looks dull. Of course I'm just speaking off what I've seen.