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Submitted by MajorAly 204d ago | rumor

Rumor: AMD’s Mantle API is a direct copy of Xbox One’s low level API

AMD recently announced their new Mantle API. This API has been said to give AMD a significant advantage over their competitor Nvidia in terms of in-game performance. Anandtech speculates that AMD might be confident of this because their Mantle API is a direct copy of Xbox One’s Graphics API allowing developers to directly port their games from Xbox One to PC. Since Mantle can use Direct3D high level shader language, Xbox One’s shader will be already coded in the first place so there is not much work involved in porting them to PC. (AMD, Industry, Microsoft, Next-Gen, NVIDIA, PC, PS4, Tech, Xbox One)

Update Article updated with Digital Foundry info. Digital Foundry thinks the Mantle API appears to have much in common with PS4′s GNM API.

Hard to tell
Is this rumor true? Rumor votes 82
thrust  +   204d ago
This seems like great news for the xbox one
Fishy Fingers  +   204d ago
How does it? If anything it means easier and better PC ports of Xbox one titles and if you read the article it's already been contradicted by a bigger source:

"Update: Digital Foundry issues the exact opposite statement. According to Digital Foundry, the Mantle API appears to have much in common with PS4′s GNM API"
PFFT  +   204d ago
So the Mantle API has much in common with the Xbox One and Ps4's API. Thats good news to me.
JonnyLH  +   204d ago
Digital Foundry said they're common in the idea of writing lower down, they didn't say it supports Mantle. The PS4 still uses its PSSL and LibGCN libraries like it always has done.
#1.1.2 (Edited 204d ago ) | Agree(9) | Disagree(1) | Report
DeadlyFire  +   204d ago
Well AMD made both system's GPUs. PS4/1BX both are structured around GPGPU compute. Mantle is to take the load off the CPU. So it sounds to me like its PC version of GPGPU compute API to assist DirectX and OpenGL platforms. Basically its an API for the inner workings beyond what DirectX and OpenGL themselves handle. Likely with compatibility with both HLSL, and GLSL.
#1.1.3 (Edited 204d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(1) | Report
P0werVR  +   204d ago
Wowzer!

So Sony chose x86 for porting and Microsoft went a step further and worked with AMD?!

If true, smart move by Microsoft. Probably this is why there is an NDA by the 29th.

Just speculations for now.
ShinMaster  +   204d ago
"Update:

Article updated with Digital Foundry info. Digital Foundry thinks the Mantle API appears to have much in common with PS4′s GNM API."
mewhy32  +   204d ago
That it's related to both the PS4 and the bone's API is actually a good thing. As the PS4 sells by the tens of millions and the bone by the millions, AMD will be in a great position to pander this API to the devs for easier game porting between platforms. Pretty exciting stuff.
KazHiraiFTW  +   203d ago
The new consoles both use x86 architecture like PCs. What this means is developers want to tap into the power of PCs more and are now able to use PC as the lead platform for all games and scale down to consoles, which greatly improves development efficiency. This is also the reason AMD is now able to implement this new Mantle API, which further improves the performance of PC games. This new generation is looking to be a big improvement over the last for all platforms.
#1.1.7 (Edited 203d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(0) | Report
Ju  +   203d ago
This will never happen. XBox is DirectX. Nothing else. A low overhead version, none the less. But you can't bypass DX on the Xbox (one). There is no way in h..l that AMD can get below DX access to (their own) chipset without MS controlling it. Maybe that's unfortunate. But this is MS's business practice. MS controls the OS incl. the HW access.

At the same time, I can believe that AMD was involved in Sony's low level GNM library and Mantel might as well be a "AMD version" of the same thing, with the addition that it will run on PCs. At same time, Sony's API is so small, that Mantel should easily wrap around GNM. So, well, even if Sony won't offer this directly (which I doubt they will) there is nothing preventing AMD from releasing a version for the PS4.
#1.1.8 (Edited 203d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(4) | Report
Kuse  +   204d ago
Agreed, this seems to be like a huge plus for Xbox One.
Gimmemorebubblez  +   204d ago
People need to understand the following
-Mantle is not the standard, all PC games fall back on DX and both consoles have DX11.2.(1)
-Consoles have their own low level API’s that allow coding to the metal. Mantel is an API meant for PC games, that improves OPC on the CPU compared to OGL or DX.
-This is a rumor has been shot down by TechGAF and Digital Foundry
pacostacos  +   204d ago
ps4 doesn't have dx 11. anything its a Ms exclusive the Ps4 uses open gl
Ju  +   203d ago
Playstation(s) don't use OpenGL. It uses some custom library (libGCM/GNM). Sony offers a PSGL (OpenGL compatible) library out of convenience. But that's about it.
Tooly  +   203d ago
@paco
@ju
http://www.gdcvault.com/pla... it does use dx
forcefullpower  +   203d ago
@Tooly

That just mean the console can do anything that is in the DX and OpenGL libraries and a lot more. Nothing more than a compatibility matrix. The console does not use Direct X.
Mike134nl  +   204d ago
Not really console API already did and do the same thing, allowing developers to go to the bone of the console. Though it seems that mantle API seems to be somewhat dependant to AMD architecture it is open source and could even be used by Nvidia.

This could be a boom/great news for pc gamers and steam meaning more competition from pc's for the ps4 and xb1.
#1.3 (Edited 204d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
WarThunder  +   204d ago
If this rumor is true, Then AMDs API will be compatible with both PS4 and X1 not only X1

http://n4g.com/news/1362393...
#1.4 (Edited 204d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(7) | Report | Reply
amnalehu  +   204d ago
Sounds like good news for PC.
2cents  +   204d ago
Foundry Vs. Anandtech

Fight Fight Fight!!!
wishingW3L  +   203d ago
both equally respectable, so things could get interesting with both saying different things. XD
nunley33  +   203d ago
it did till the story was updated, now its a ps4 story,zing! either way,this actually good news for pc games.
#1.7 (Edited 203d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
BallsEye  +   203d ago
AMD confirmed anandtechs article. It is for XO and PC.

https://twitter.com/AMDRade...

So I was right.
PrimeGrime  +   203d ago | Intelligent
That article says this could be for both PS4 and Xbox One also. It never confirms anything or says that for a fact it is just Xbox One and PC.

It even says this. Did you even read it all yourself?

"Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part."

You were far from right. Your previous comments basically say that this is only for the Xbox One and that only Microsoft could afford to use this as a fact. When none of this information has facts and again is pure speculation.

The same old grasping at straws a lot of you Xbox One fans have been doing non-stop. Sad when you can't even read the information you are sourcing, instead you all act like MisterX just picking and choosing what works for your console wars arguments.

It never actually once states it is specifically for the Xbox One as a fact.

"What’s not being said, but what becomes increasingly HINTED at as we read through AMD’s material, is not just that Mantle is a low level API, but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API."

How is that definitive proof when in the previous paragraphs of that article it says this.

"Perspective #2: The Console Connection

However even with a basic understanding of draw calls and their overhead, so far we haven’t really explained why Mantle exists, and indeed the entire frame of reference that Mantle resides in requires better understanding just why it exists. If Mantle was merely about providing a new low level API for GCN, then the issue would be far more straightforward, and Mantle in most likelihood remain an underutilized curiosity. Instead we have to talk about what is not said and not even hinted at, but what is more critical than Mantle’s performance improvements: the console connection.

As the supplier of the APUs in both the Xbox One and PS4, AMD is in a very interesting place. Both of these upcoming consoles are based on their GCN technology, and as such AMD owns a great deal of responsibility in developing both of these consoles. This goes not only for their hardware but also portions of their software stack, as it’s AMD that needs to write the drivers and AMD that needs to help develop the APIs these consoles will use, so that the full features of the hardware are made available to developers."

That is why I can't even take some of these tech sites seriously. One minute they say one thing, the next minute they say the complete opposite. Why? Site hits.

... and now look the entire article was started from what Digital Foundry has said, now it has been updated, saying the complete opposite to prove my point further.

All you Xbox fans grasping at rumors, look like fools once again. Just like every idiot who told me to wait till the 26th.. Then the 27th and again it got pushed back to the 30th, now the person who even started all these rumors about this non disclosure agreement are claiming it will never come, now we have to wait years because Microsoft will hide it.

How delusional can you be to not see straight through all this crap?

When this comes from Microsoft's mouth, come back and talk about the superior technical aspects of software and hardware the Xbox One offers, until then stop making yourselves look anymore foolish than you already have as nothing in what you provided proves anything.

How about you actually read it all first.
#1.8.1 (Edited 203d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(2) | Report
thisismyaccount  +   203d ago
Xbox One dx 11.<1> gpu, dx11.<2> via software "tweaks".

PS4 "libgcm" 11.<2> gpu and 11.<2+> via software "tweaks".

Both have their LLD, and are prolly way more sophisticated than what Mantle.
IcicleTrepan  +   204d ago
seriously doubt it
BallsEye  +   204d ago
well, new series of their GPU were created in collaboration with MS, they've basicly sponsored a lot of the research. To remind you XBOX ONE deal with AMD costed MS over 3 billion! I'm sure they didn't pay that price for 1.3 tflop gpu..especially that sony paid nothing compared to that. Something must be up.
Kayant  +   204d ago
How were the new GPUs in collaboration with MS when it was confirmed by an Xbox engineer that PS4 and XB1 are using rebranded OEM HD7* series cards a.k.a HD8000 Sea Island---> http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

"sony paid nothing compared to that" Semi-custom am pretty sure they paid quite a bit as well seeing as it's not a standard APU/architecture that can be found anywhere else like the XB1's.

Obviously MS paid more has their solution is completely custom from the base Jaguar architecture but they don't collaborate with AMD on the Volcanic Islands series expect you have information that says otherwise.
BallsEye  +   204d ago
@Kayant

"it's not a standard APU/architecture that can be found anywhere else like the XB1's. "

Are you serious??? The whole XB1 Soc, whole APU and everything else is totally custom.

It was on hotchips and is on plenty of sites just write it in google. You just lost all your credibility. Get your info straight.. wtf.

http://techreport.com/news/...

http://www.pcworld.com/arti...

While ps4 got semi-custom APU XO have it a fully custom one.

http://www.tomshardware.com...

They didn't pay 3+ billion for nothing. Money that unfortunately Sony can not pay and you know it. Money always win, that's how it works.

Please stop posting lies. Misleading people is not good.
#2.1.2 (Edited 204d ago ) | Agree(9) | Disagree(15) | Report
BG11579  +   204d ago
For what it's worth :
"The Frostbite Mantle used with Frostbite 3 engine powered Battlefield 4 is a new API which would be used naively instead of DirectX 11.1 on compatible Radeon GPUs to enable higher graphics performance."

"This enables upto 9 time more draw cells per seconds than other APIs such as DirectX 11 for instance by reducing the CPU over head load which is than tasked upon the GPU hardware since its easily accessible. It also allows developers to include more optimization work from next gen game consoles to PCs which in return means the benefit for PC Gamers."
In sum, not for consoles, just for PC.

http://wccftech.com/frostbi...
#2.1.3 (Edited 204d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(0) | Report
Ju  +   203d ago
"They didn't pay 3+ billion for nothing. Money that unfortunately Sony can not pay and you know it. Money always win, that's how it works. "

Makes you how MS could end up with the weaker chip after all those customizations and money spent, huh?
Kayant  +   203d ago
@BallsEye

Wooow how am i misleading people when I said "Obviously MS paid more has their solution is completely custom from the base Jaguar architecture"....

All I said was that Sony paid quite a bit aswell but not the same as MS because their solution is completely custom.

Re-read my comment before calling me a lair please. "like the XB1's" is there for a reason you know.

Seeing as there is no documentation that says MS & AMD worked together to make the new Volcanic Islands series GPU I don't see how am the one lying here.
Bud1914  +   203d ago
AMD basically killed Digital Foundry's article and confirmed the Xbox rumor via a tweet.
Belking  +   204d ago
lol...you mean you hope it isn't.... Don't forget who has the 3 billion dollar deal with AMD. It's MS. As we get closer to NDA expiration we are finding out more stuff about xbox-one just like i said.
grassyknoll  +   204d ago
Microsoft's deal is with 3 billion over the course Xbox One, from percentage from sales of consoles over its life time, not a one time investment. That's more than the whole company is worth.
Gimmemorebubblez  +   204d ago
And you know what.......even though Sony spent less (which is not known), they still created a weaker system.
PsychOff  +   203d ago
FACE PALM.. People still going on about the NDA.. Explains why you are down to one bubble now.
DeadManIV  +   204d ago
glad its on PC, finally PC gaming on steam OS is where its at (along with PS4 - too many exclusives to consider not buying it)
WarThunder  +   204d ago
That what i always say, PC/PlayStation is the best gaming combination ever!
PC multiplatforms, PS4 exclusives (from their great first party studios).
#3.1 (Edited 204d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
BG11579  +   204d ago
Wait, where do people get this info? I watched yesterday AMD's conference, and this wasn't stated at any point...

Are some people trying to launch another rumour, for those few hopeful that still believe that the Xbone still has some sort of leverage against the PS4?

Plus anyone that saw the AMD's conf should know this, the mantle thing is completely unnecessary for the Xbone or any other console fixed hardware. Mantle is only necessary for PC because the hardware is different in each PC. Mantle would permit to optimize each PC in an individual automaticly to obtain a perfect optimization.
Optimization of consoles is made with system updates and good software made by the games developers.
Kleptic  +   203d ago
exactly...coding to the metal is the primary benefit consoles offer over PC's...as a platform...

DirectX 11.1 has some features to address this, with the ability to off-load specific cpu tasks to certain gpu's...but just like everything in the PC world, its only relevant if a developer actually takes the time to do it...which they rarely do...

This goes even deeper down the same path...just as you said...the 'fixed' nature of a console is exactly why optimization gets huge priority...the only thing fixed in gaming PC's right now...is Windows...not the hardware...

So if Dice/AMD are able to provide a decent showcase for what mantle is capable of...then great, it'll benefit PC gaming more than anything...and begin to remove the absolutely retarded overhead windows as an OS still requires during game play...but if its just another smoke and mirros type of thing, much like what dx 11.1 has been so far (all kinds of talk of features, and absolutely no credible benefit yet to consumers)...it'll quickly be forgotten...

doesn't matter how similar mantle is to either console's set of low level drivers/api's...this is NOTHING new for console coding...they've always done this, and its the main reason consoles can never be directly compared to PC hardware...but this could be very big for PC gaming...if it gets support and is used by devs...

so i'll see what happens in December...I'll have BF4 day one on PC...and get well over a month in before mantle is released...should give me a good idea of whether or not this is just more marketing...or something actually beneficial to...you know...the people that buy the games...
zippycup  +   203d ago
yes this is a win for Microsoft but on PC only as they have a monopoly on the PC or so i have heard might be a rumor

think the only ones that have to worry are Linux and apple maybe ??
Bud1914  +   203d ago
Sorry but AMD tweeted that the story was an excellent description of their Mantle and linked the article. That about solidifies it as fact.
syne49  +   204d ago
So excited for the release of these consoles. If for anything to put an end to the rumors and speculations. I want to hear about games way more than I do tech. We need to get back to discussing games not hardware.
Kleptic  +   203d ago
this has absolutely nothing to do with either console though...I don't know why it was even tagged for the consoles...

this is a possibly large benefit for PC gaming as a platform...addressing coding issues created by Windows...where as, windows as a platform for gaming, doesn't allow nearly as efficient use of hardware compared to a 'simpler' OS like that of a console...

regardless of what mantle ends up being, if it works, or if its supported by game makers...it has nothing to do with either console...doesn't matter which its similar to...the 'coding to the metal' feature set used for either the xbox one or PS4 HAVE to be used just to get a game running...on PC, this is more related to better utilization of existing hardware...
JonnyLH  +   204d ago
Considering MS placed 3 billion into the company, I'm pretty sure the mono driver and this will have very common ideas and implementations.

This is pure speculation but this could very well be the reason why there hasn't been a playable version of BF4 on the X1, or anything Frostbite. Writing lower down will change the whole architecture of the engine and require a complete re-write and considering the PC update will be in December, the time frames do align quite well.
#6 (Edited 204d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(7) | Report | Reply
TacticAce  +   204d ago
In which the Xbox One is made with AMD Parts, so what are you really trying to get at?
grassyknoll  +   204d ago
This isn't true at all & is actually stupid. Direct X gives Microsoft a monopoly over the PC market, why support something that takes control away from them?
badboy776  +   204d ago
What does this mean???
wishingW3L  +   203d ago
who knows... But APIs are a set of tools that allows programmers to take advantage of GPU much easier. Low level means that the programming is closer to the hardware but is harder because the closer you're to it the more difficult is the syntax compared to high level. High level programming lets you use words (example: C++, Java) while low level is mostly binaries, hexadecimals and decimals (example: Assembler).

With low level you can do more with less but like I already said, it's much more harder and time consuming.
Gimmemorebubblez  +   204d ago
Both contracts were awarded to Sony and MS for 3.1bn USD.
bassambient   204d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(1)
spoonard  +   203d ago
Well, i'm sure AMD had at least a small part in developing the API's for the PS4 and the Xbox One (since they both use AMD APU's) Mantle is likely the PC counterpart to those.
#12 (Edited 203d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
Obamanationn  +   203d ago
this just means PC's will be handling games with even more ease meaning they can push graphic divide even further between PC / Consoles visuals
deadfrag  +   203d ago
This is just for PC neither one of the consoles will get anykind of push due to Mantle!What this mean is that this using API in the PC enviroment will give developers a more direct acess to the metal on PC.XBOX1 uses DX tools Microsoft AND Sony will not use Mantle in anyway.
#14 (Edited 203d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
mahmoods26  +   203d ago
Actually this is better news for Steam OS and the two consoles since this means lower priced hardware on all three platforms will eke out better performance.
PrimeGrime  +   203d ago
Got enough already?

http://files.chesscomfiles....

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