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Submitted by Abriael 309d ago | news

Microsoft’s Phil Harrison Explains that Xbox One’s Cloud Can Actually Improve Graphics

The cloud feature of Xbox One has been discussed quite actively by developers and fans, and one of the points of contention is if it can actually provide enough computational power to improve a game's graphics. Even the PS4's lead architect Mark Cerny explained that "Trying to boost the quality of the graphics, that won’t work well in the Cloud."

Yet Microsoft seems to disagree with that view, as explained today during his panel at Eurogamer Expo by Corporate Vice President Phil Harrison. (Phil Harrison, Xbox One)

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Ksar   309d ago | Off topic | show | Replies(13)
NYC_Gamer  +   309d ago
Does MS have any GPU farms?if not then their cloud service won't improve anything graphic related.
Abriael  +   309d ago
Computational power is computational power actually. It's not like CPU computations and GPU computations are completely separate by some firm divide. CPUs and GPUs simply are optimized for their specific purposes.

Not that I blindly believe him, just saying.
darthv72  +   309d ago
Have a look at this: http://software.intel.com/e...

Or this: http://www.anandtech.com/sh...

The idea of cloud assisted graphics is not that far off.
minimur12  +   309d ago | Funny
So when we don't have an internet connection, the graphics will looks X360? lol
r1sh12  +   309d ago
@Abrial @Darthv72

Cloud GPU processing already exists in the form of encoding/decoding frames.

AMD can do both and process all GPU computations, its a server rack blade you stick in and good to go.
I use it as part of my job at a major European airport:

http://www.amd.com/uk/produ...

THe problem is bandwidth and whilst it is likely MS can do some processing remotely the issue they have is latency and managing to get it across from a server to the client console.
I know MS have a CDN (Content delivery network) that has insane speeds, but if the users internet bandwidth is low it completely defeats the point.
Not sure if compression will be used, but the tech is already there, the problem is internet speeds.
Which leads me to the next off topic point,
Majornelson would say "Oh you could take your account to your friends hosue, and play your games there - Digitally" BUt the issue I see in this scenario, if said friend has not installed the game, the game has be to be downloaded right.
How long will that take? 16+GB at least a few hours LOOOL.
The big issue for most of the world is internet speeds.
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dumahim  +   309d ago
@r1sh12

I believe MS has said you'll be able to play while the game is downloading in the background, much like the PS4.
shoddy  +   309d ago
MS can be trusted
UltimateMaster  +   309d ago
And clearly there won't be significant lag due to the amount of Mbps it would require to make such a thing happen.

Sony can't even release Gaikai in Europe because of low internet speed, let alone having Microsoft telling us it can increase graphics.

It could work on paper, but in reality, not really.

It's like how Sony's abandoning the 3G on their Vitas, it doesn't work as well as wi-fi and cost significantly more for the users and they aren't interested in paying that extra amount.

I could go off into detail how Internet Connection works on SmartPhone with their multiple channels, but it won't really matter since you don't get that much bandwidth usage in the first place and that's a perfect example how it works on paper but not in real life.

You'd need a 50Mbps connection speed, minimum, to play this without significant lag.
So forget your 6Mbps, it just won't work.
And 50Mbps is in hopes your internet speed Doesn't fluctuates and go lower than that.
Omegasyde  +   309d ago | Intelligent
I work with with Cloud software and hardware like VMware and MS hyperV.

I will tell you write now, they are full of $%#%# as far as graphics are concerned,however both consoles are future proof if streaming is to be considered.

Microsoft will eventually release thier own streaming service much like Sony's with Gaikai. So in 5-6 years from now, you will be streaming your games. Ideally, this means everyone has to have a good connection speed, or > 300ms in latency for it to work "smoothly" especially for multiplayer. Think like Onlive.

Cloud computing can help with metrics and AI and can be used in innovative ways, but to tell you the truth we have been using the power of "teh clowd" for years now.

Example 1:
Insert favorite racing game
You compete against a ghost car of your friend's game. This data was uploaded from your friend's console to a server with how he exactly raced from time to path on track. This server then uploads the data to your console.

Example 2:
Comparing your progress and stats in GTA5 is another example or how the stockmarket changes based on the global community.

In the IT world, "Cloud" is just a fancy term for virtualization. The idea came from some sales person who wanted to describle an off-site server in a more tantaliyzing way for his/her sales pitch.

Similar examples: syngery=teamwork, New and Improved= upgraded, crowdsourcing = hiring consultants.
LonChaneyTV  +   309d ago
minimur12 - "So when we don't have an internet connection, the graphics will looks X360? lol"

I don't think any xbox 360 game is comparable to ryse or quantum break.

----------

Anyways, just so you know Cloud computing is for future usage. we won't see the best of it until later on. right now it's just used as dedicated severs.
UnholyLight  +   309d ago
I always said that this was something they have been briefly mentioning about the cloud since the Xbox One's reveal.

I feel like it's something that Microsoft would probably be able to accomplish to some degree down the road seeing as how Microsoft has the resources to make it happen.

In any case this is exciting news because it means that it's something Sony will likely become invested in too!

= Good for all of us gamers!!
itBourne  +   309d ago
@Omega
Very well said man, was going to say something similar. Seen where a developer pointed towards matchmaking as an example of "cloud" computing lol.
Things are still a long ways off though as far as graphics, because then are devs going to make games scalable like pc games? If you dont have an internet connection you play on "low settings" if you do then "high settings"? Also the U.S. has a ridiculously awful internet base. In places like Korea sure no prob, streaming stuff is easy, but here is a much different story.
inveni0  +   309d ago
I'll believe Cerny for now.
dedicatedtogamers  +   309d ago
Where's the proof?

We have an alarming amount of fingers-in-ears-lalala going on in the gaming industry right now. No one wants to admit the obvious truth that Microsoft trying to smoke and mirror gamers, and the only people who stand up are instantly labelled as - obviously! - Sony fanboys.

Microsoft has made numerous lofty claims before (so has Sony, for the record, which is why I'm still leery of EVERY PS4 game Remote Playing on Vita smoothly) and they've lied before.

The proof so far is that virtually every next-gen multiplat game has been running on PC or PS4, not Xbox One. If their Cloud service is so powerful (of course, not available at launch, we must not forget) then by now they certainly have a proof of concept or a "prototype" server to show us these improved graphics, right? Right?

Where's the proof?
mistertwoturbo  +   309d ago
Microsoft does everything for the interest of the consumers, they listen to feedback from their fans, and above all they never ever lie.
pixelsword  +   308d ago
If the cloud actually works for Xbone, which game shows it off?
corvusmd  +   308d ago
@minimur12 Seeing as we haven't seen any XB1 games running with the cloud hooked up....it'd look like we've seen them demo'd...so about the same level as PS4. Cloud computing would only advance it from there. Not being connected wouldn't downgrade the existing hardware to 360/Ps3 days.
Kayant  +   309d ago
Maybe he's referring to it in an indirect manner as due to the offloading to the cloud more power will be available locally to do other things.... If not I don't totally believe it until it's shown in a game because things like nvidia's grid/amd's radeon sky/onlive/gaikai are all mainly GPU based.

If this is all true then it will must likely be only used in MP only games like titanfall I don't see this working in SP as they don't have mandatory drm anymore and not everyone wants to play a single-player and having to be tethered to the internet a.k.a Sim city
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Gamer666  +   309d ago
You don't need GPU farms... Cloud processing is about distributed, coordinated processing, it does not matter what you are processing.

It is just taking the WELL PROVEN concept of distributed processing and focusing it for real time uses on a console.
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P0werVR  +   309d ago
@Kayant

"If this is all true then it will must likely be only used in MP only..."

No kidding Sherlock!

@NYC_Gamer

GPU farms?!

CPU computational power is just that...CPU, computational, power! It's not complicated

Azure will progress throughout it's existence therefore getting powerful overtime.
GutZ31  +   309d ago
Is everyone neglecting to talk about latencies on purpose?
Lets say you do offload, say 10% of CPU burden, we will call it non-essential physics, the best internet connection is usually around 55ms. thats 55 milliseconds one way, at ideal internet latencies. At 180 milliseconds, lag/latency becomes noticeable to people with fast reflex's, or professional gamers. Now, the average latency in the USofA is about 155ms for the west coast, and 200ms roughly for the east coast(stats show higher latency at 261ms). Note, these are averages, meaning you could experience much less, or much worse in the form of lag no matter where you are in the US at any given time, and thats before you add communication with offsite servers in the mix. And for the Europeans, your internet is ever more finicky than ours.
Anyway, back to that 10%.
After about 150ms, the data has been sent to the servers for processing. For the hell of it, lets just say its super fast at doing the calculations, so, 20ms? well, it still needs to send the data back to the user, so add another 150ms to that, you get 320ms, a very noticable lag.
I am being a little critical here, but look it up, the math isn't false, it is what we deal with everyday, and sometimes worse.

If the infrastructure isn't there, we are all going to be disappointed in the technology coming from both sony and microsoft with the cloud.
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malokevi  +   309d ago
It's easy to dismiss cloud processing on the basis of latency... until it's your life's work to solve the dilemma. There are brilliant mind working tirelessly on these issues as we speak.

you don't think there's a solution? We'll, then you underestimate the ingenuity of human kind.

I choose to look forward with cautious optimism.
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GutZ31  +   309d ago
@malokevi
There are extremely talented individuals out there working on brilliant ways of getting around bottlenecks, and latencies. The problem lies in corporate interests.
We are force fed data limits by companies like Time Warner, or Cox at fixed rates across all companies. They basically agree to not be competitive with prices. This leads to a saturated market that everyone has the same model, with no real benefits, or reason for the caped data speeds.
The nation, nay, I say the world is capable of gigabit internet connections for all, but the only company even trying to shake things up is google.
Latency is always an issue. Even when you have the best minds working on this, you will always have the problem of upload/download inequality by todays standards.

I'll put it this way;
I don't trust companies to do good by consumers, I trust consumers to make right what companies do wrong.

I expect whining and hateful remarks made at sony and MS for failed promises, but hope to be proven wrong.
I rather expect failure, and get success than expect success, and get failure.
malokevi  +   309d ago
Thats why I say cautious optimism. I don't expect success, but I refuse to dismiss everything I've heard in favour of a pessimistic standpoint.

"latency" is not the be-all-end-all death of cloud processing. There are other, clever ways that developers are learning to leverage the tech to positive effect. No reason why it can't work for certain applications.

I don't expect real time by the millisecond processing. Cautious optimism implies realism. I have faith in the ingenuity of greater minds than mine, supported by a pocket book that could send men to mars. Assuming you are able to maintain a decent connection, I see no reason to deem this stuff as anything but positive.
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hqgamez   309d ago | Bad language | show | Replies(1)
Blaze929  +   309d ago
Microsoft: Something we designed, know about, and worked closely with can do the statement we're saying it can do.

N4G: I'm just a gamer, not employed by anything even closely related to this field. It won't work! Foolish Microsoft

...N4G users definitely know best.
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christian hour  +   309d ago
Right, because people who use N4G are just N4G users and nothing else and couldn't possibly know anything about anything.

There is a wide variety of people on this site with a wide range of expertise in different areas. But one thing we all have in common is we're all using the internet. We all know what latency is. We all know how lag comes about. or at least I hope we all should.

Offloading graphical processes and physics to the cloud works in theory, but internet speeds and bandwidth are where it can and will fall short. Sony have a cloud service too, and the only reason their not tooting about how its going to improve graphics is because they aren't looking like the weaker console to the consumer right now so they don't need to grasp at straws.

If anyone calls me a fanboy for saying that then all you're doing is showing your ignorance, your denial and your severe insecurity that the product you plan on purchasing might not be as good as the product somebody else is planning on purchasing. oh noes! /sarcasm
BlackTar187  +   309d ago
Don't mind Blaze
AngelicIceDiamond  +   309d ago
@Blaze Lol that is true.

The funny thing is Sony fans are super defensive and reassuring themselves and other fanboys that MS is lying and then have the nerve to say "Its fake" and "not real."

Then they try and pretend like they know what they're talking about, when they don't. They're scared because what if MS actually achieves this goal. That's the question here.

They say "Well I haven't seen it, therefor its fake and PR crap."

Yeah because MS works on super insecure, super defensive fanboys that damage controls every single major Xbox article all time lol.

It sounds cool but I have to see for myself. You don't see me sweeping it under a rug and calling it fake like everyone doing here.

If something like this sounds cool why not get at least cautiously excited for it?

Oh because Sony's using cloud for something totally different and MS is using cloud to supposedly add extra horse power to game development.

Picture this for 2 seconds fanboys, Sony says. "We're using cloud power to enhance games." See how cool that sounds now? just imagine, its not so bad now is it?

Have fun and stay in damage control fanboys.
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BlackTar187  +   309d ago
Angelic you seem rather defensive.

Just a observation.

"Have fun and stay in damage control fanboys." You talking to yourself in a mirror?

I'm pretty sure Sony people have commented more then once on that even the gaiki thing is up in the air due to bandwidth limitations. You just gonna pretend people haven't said this multiple times?

The facts about Cloud is that we do not as a planet have the infrastructure up to do the things MS is saying are possible. MS does not have a secreat sauce unreleased in tech journls. I mean this is FACT. Now what they are saying in theory will be possible later when we get a stronger build country wide - Worldwide but stop pretending like people are only calling it PR nonsense because of fanboy loyalty. To do so is being nieve.

The real question should be that if MS is far enough along to tout such a feature and we are less then 2 months from release show it do something to prove it. It isn't so hard to do so if you have tangible substance to do so. The wait till the console comes out mentality is just a form of business that has gone on for decades and the success rate is very low.

If MS introduces this feature in 5-6 yrs after release is that a period in which you can say i told you so? No well i hope not.
buynit  +   309d ago
@christian

So what are you saying that you know it cant and will never be done? Are u that high up in the food chain or have the knowledge to truly know it cant ever be done?

Im not going to act like I know about thia but plenty of ppl are saying it works on paper and thats from the same ppl saying It cant be done, sounds to me like its close to happening so shouldnt we embrace it and wish them the best of luck on getting it done instead of acting like a bunch of little brats all cause sony isnt trying to do it or saying that it can be done..
AngelicIceDiamond  +   309d ago
@Blacktar "Have fun and stay in damage control fanboys." You talking to yourself in a mirror?

Lol What Please explain this, if you can that is?

listen, what if Sony was doing the exact same thing as MS, and MS wasn't opting to such a thing what would you say? Honest question.

Would your tone change. Would you hype it up like most fanboys would on there said console? Which is a natural reaction.

"I'm pretty sure Sony people have commented more then once on that even the gaiki thing is up in the air due to bandwidth limitations. You just gonna pretend people haven't said this multiple times?"

Obviously that's why I said its wait and see and I'm CAUTIOUSLY optimistic.

Your comparing Gaikai to something different here but I do believe Sony and MS will have the same problems with bandwidth. But MS has servers in just about every city across america.

"but stop pretending like people are only calling it PR nonsense because of fanboy loyalty. To do so is being nieve."

Well who else is complaining about this? Calling it fake and not real? MS fans, regular users, Sony fans or somewhere in between? Who is it?

"The real question should be that if MS is far enough along to tout such a feature and we are less then 2 months from release show it do something to prove it."

MS hasn't even off the the Dashboard that runs 4 apps at a time. People are still looking forward to that. Like I said they'll show it off when they're ready to. BTW if MS does show off the cloud. What will you be looking for? And how will you compare it and what will you compare it to? If MS shows an example or tech footage that won't be enough for you and "others" because you wanna see real stuff that you can't even begin compare it to anything.
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BlackTar187  +   309d ago
Angelic,

First off stop pretending like you know me or how i operate in life. I work for a VAR (Value added Reseller)in the bay area. We sell HW and SW and Engineering support. As a base requirement for this field since we are a small business you have to understand what Virtualization, Cloud Computing and Networking are at the base level. I'm not some person who knows everything about it but im also not some person who knows nothing in order for small businesses like ourselves to succeeded we provide VALUE on all levels and knowledge at least in base form is required. That said i don't expect you to believe me nor do i care.

"listen, what if Sony was doing the exact same thing as MS, and MS wasn't opting to such a thing what would you say? Honest question. "

Honest Answer I wouldn't be pumping up a feature i know is not infrastructuraly available to over 90-95% of the US population. And 95%-97% of the developed world. So honest answer is a wait and see approach. Which is only partially what you are seeing. You're banking on this idea to bring something at a base customer level when we have nothing on this actually being fee sable at this current time with ISP restrictions and lag delays. So no I would not be using this as a reason to Purchase and am not with the Xone I will buy it for games like i have with every system that isn't named WiiU(I will get one) to date for the last 20+ yrs.

"Would your tone change. Would you hype it up like most fanboys would on there said console? Which is a natural reaction. "
Why would i hype something up that technically sin't realistic yet in the current set up across america as a whole? This is the same question worded differently as above please see above.

"Obviously that's why I said its wait and see and I'm CAUTIOUSLY optimistic" Okay you are being very casual with your definition of Wait and see and ho wit applies to you in your use.

"Well who else is complaining about this? Calling it fake and not real? MS fans, regular users, Sony fans or somewhere in between? Who is it? " It's all of the above. The xbox only fans are not all in agreement in using this as a reason to hype a system some of them me included are not so deluded to think MS has a secret sauce. Which btw in this day and age is just almost impossible to have. SOny fans sure yea okay them and so do people who have no interest in video games or the market in general. The difference is only 1 group of people are choosing to ignore it and our somehow trying to convince themselves of a secret sauce.

Last Question:
Ms hasn't shown its Dashboard? The relevancy here is very low considering Dashboards don't sell systems. Games do and they showed those. Cloud Computing at the level MS is saying would too the problem is MS most likely isn't at that level yet so their sellign you an idea that is still a work in progress. Thats a problem. Games are also works in progress but they are built on a architecture that is set in stone. Cloud computing has no such advantage since the majority of people (HUGE) do not have the proper ground work laid in their area to use such features.
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Omegasyde  +   309d ago
Hey Blaze, I actually do work with virtualization and I can tell you most of what Phil said is funky BS. Read above.

Stop drinking the MS koolaid.
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badkolo  +   309d ago
its funny isnt.
rainslacker  +   308d ago
@Angelic

OK, lets put fanboyism aside for a moment. Lets put console preference aside for the moment.

Lets say, some random engineer from a reputable company known to make strides in the computer engineering field, or their PR lackey, came out and said they could offer this big improvement in game performance.

What would be your first response?

Mine, being that I have used the net since 28.8K modems would be, "what about latency".

What would be your second response should they offer more detail, without any quantifiable proof?

Mine would be, "OK, well the principle is sound, distributive computing has been around for a couple decades now, but how about all the things that hinder actual implementation....lets say...latency and the extreme amount of resources required to run such an application on a large scale."

What would be your third response should they just keep repeating it offering examples of things that are already done which don't actually involve improving the game in the manner being spoken of, such as matchmaking or dedicated servers.

Mine would be..."do you really think I'm a idiot?"

See, a lot of us have common sense. I'm personally a computer programmer, and have a decent understanding of network infrastructures, and more so cloud computing. For others on here, there have been numerous articles which discredit everything that MS has proposed as being well into the future. Even NVidia which showed a real world prototype of the exact application MS is trying to say they can deliver said that it's well into the future, and prone to issues such as latency and cost, and their system is specifically designed to deliver such content.

Either way, it doesn't take a degree in computer engineering, or being completely up to date with every advance in the last couple years to be able to use a modicum of critical thinking skills.

Why do we have to be fan boys when we use our common sense, and take the "Put up or shut up" attitude? Why are all of us dismissed because there are those that act they way you describe?

The answer to that is, fanboyism. It's easier to dismiss an argument than address it, and there is no easier way to discredit another person on the internet than pulling out the bias card. It lacks imagination, and it's getting really old.

I believe that if you can't offer a counter-argument that discredits what the "Fan boys" keep saying, then it is entirely possible that they may be right. They could still be wrong, but it's not like I see droves of MS supporters coming in and offering real evidence that what MS proposes is possible right now, or even in the immediate future. Even MS can't seem to provide that in even a prototype form. I would think that if that evidence existed, we would have seen it offered up at some point, by at least one MS fan.
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corvusmd  +   308d ago
Christian, you're a retard. Sorry but flat out you are...true, Sony has "cloud" but "cloud" is just a general term used for functions done outside your system on a server. The Sony version of Cloud is roughly equivalent of what X360 calls cloud. The reason Sony isn't talking about this, is cause Sony doesn't have this. You clearly need to learn more before you pipe in about this topic.
ALLWRONG   309d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(4)
xtremeimport  +   309d ago
The cloud is the most interesting thing about xb1 for me.

Interested to see how they utilize it. Curious, could Sony not add a similar type of feature in the future to the PS4? Or is it something that the system itself isn't built to use?
xtremeimport  +   309d ago
classic. Ask a question and get dislikes...what? lol
BoriboyShoGUN  +   309d ago
Sony has already stated they could do the same thing, but they dont see it being very beneficial. I prefer the power to be in the hardware myself. With all the lag we had to deal with this pass gen now u want to get your graphical power from a server as well????How are games going to look offline?? Just too many questions on this whole cloud service!
Omegasyde  +   309d ago
Question: Could Sony not add a similar type of feature in the future to the PS4?

Answer: Most definately yes. Gaikai is streaming data in realtime over the internet(the "cloud") to an endpoint.

In the article, Phil mentions how data could be uploaded and downloaded from end users to "dynamically" change the game.

Cloud gaming has already been happening for a while. A really good example would be a game like MAG where 1 of the three factions win and it effect other matches going on.

Techincally, dedicated servers are also using "teh pow3r of the clowd". Another great example is Battlefield. The game "hub" is on a host with decent processing power and resources. Each player is basically sending controller inputs which includes thier actions. THe hub interpets these actions, and reflects the changes to all the other gamers.
xtremeimport  +   309d ago
So when people say that Titan fall isn't coming to PS4 because it doesn't utilize the cloud...thats basically hogwash?

Or a legitimate cause for concern?
BoriboyShoGUN  +   309d ago
Any game that saids "they need the cloud" i would say is hogwash!I tell you one thing if it doesnt work as advertised day one Xbox guys are going to flip out! Especially if the games are looking better on the PS4.
xtremeimport  +   308d ago
@boriboyshogun

You actually think they would admit to that?!
Not a chance...lol
zippycup  +   309d ago
its not that its not feasible its just that if company's start using this to make graphics better they will get lazy and start doing evrything on the cloud but tell me this what happens when the servers go down or my internet goes down will i still be able to play or will game look like crap ??
dmitrijs88  +   309d ago
I think this video explains it all:
http://www.youtube.com/watc...
Clunkyd  +   309d ago
Dont you need like a fast and stable internet speed connection in order for this to even have a chance of working?

I highly doubt anyone has that.
I get 15Mbps on a good day so im sure this wont work for me.
AlphaTauri  +   309d ago
I think that is the most "tech-ignorant" comment I've seen. wow
Beastforlifenoob  +   309d ago
You can use any type of memory (RAM, VRAM) even storage, so if they had a bunch of massive hard-drives they could use it as RAM or VRAM since they are all just differnent types of memory, albiet one is short term and the other is long term, but theoretically all they would need are servers with large hardrives and plenty of RAM and they could use this for whatever purpose they wish.

I'm still going with PS4 but I fear the next generation may be the most money grabbing greedy generation of gaming yet to come.
Beastforlifenoob  +   309d ago
Haven't YOU kids ever heard of Pager files, they are basically files allocated on your hardrive that are activated once you run out of RAM and use a portion of the hardrive as RAM.
SegaSaturn669  +   309d ago
What I really want Phil Harrison to explain is:

Where his hair went!
grassyknoll   309d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(1)
TheGamingArt  +   309d ago
This can't work. The bandwidth needed for fast calculation, this won't work. The ONLY way this can work is just streaming the damn game which ISN'T what they're advertising. That's an Onlive/Gaikai feature (not something new, not tossing some workloads to a cloud server). Microsoft is spewing bs.
iamnsuperman  +   309d ago
The fact they have yet to show a difference should speak volumes. If they wanted to make this point they should show a tech demo (a tactic used since the dawn of consoles to show a feature). A game running without the cloud and A game running with the cloud.

Talk is talk and like you said everyone is picking up on the bandwidth issue with such a move. Yet Microsoft have chosen to ignore this with their explanation. It comes off like they think we are idiots
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v6volume  +   309d ago
A tech demo running on an actual Xbox One
caseh  +   309d ago
There's nothing ruling out that cloud based solutions could facilitate background activities in some games like weather or environment conditions.

Every little mundane task that is taken from the console frees it up to improve on other aspects.

Just something to think about ya know.
warczar  +   309d ago
Sounds like all the stuff Forza is missing. No weather or night driving. Wouldn't Forza be the perfect game to show off the power of the cloud? Instead we have to trust the word of a microsoft yes man.
Bolts  +   309d ago
The reason is simple. It's a scam. If cloud rendering have any real tangible benefits in terms of performance and image quality then the tablets will be doing it.
Izzy408  +   309d ago
You must know everything then. Are you an egineer working at MS? Are you an expert in cloud computing? Because people have NEVER in history figured out how to solve or improve something right? Just because Sony hasn't figured out a way to do it, and PS fanboys want the cloud to fail, doesn't mean MS hasn't already solved the problem.
LogicStomper  +   309d ago
Scam - A dishonest scheme; a fraud.

So how exactly is this a scam? Are we paying Microsoft money specifically for this cloud feature? No. When we pay for Xbox Live Gold, we want the online gaming services. We're not subscribing just to use the cloud. So you just failed at a simple concept, it's not a scam.
TheGamingArt  +   309d ago
@Izzy408

As a software engineer, all because something is advertised doesn't mean it's plausible. Yes, innovation breaks new ground every day. But on a technical scale, this LITERALLY isn't feasible. The bandwidth between the graphics card and CPU is very very very very very very fast. In order to do cloud computation, you would have to predict EVERYTHING that needs to be rendered and stream it. You can't just toss data for rendering purposes back and forth. That's not how this work. And predicting that type of data ahead of time, simply not logical to even try since everything is meant to be real time. This is literally BS and MS's way of calming everyone down over the numerous hiccups they've shown the public.
#4.3.3 (Edited 309d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(0) | Report
Mike134nl  +   309d ago
Streaming full games cost more bandwidth compared to simply using the cloud for calculations and sending the 'answers' of those calculations to said device. This however does mean that fast calculations will not be offloaded to the cloud but only slower calculations such as AI.

Streaming services such as gaikai require more bandwidth than what Microsoft is doing at the moment.
#4.4 (Edited 309d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(7) | Report | Reply
DragonKnight  +   309d ago | Well said
Not only this is pure PR garbage that isn't based in reality, but even Microsoft knows that something like that isn't happening any time soon. Yusuf Mehdi said as much himself.

"The challenges there are latency in particular and then some of the bandwidth. So you can do game trials and game demos, but to do full games, where you are not at a disadvantage to your friend who is playing locally, and that’s a big barrier if you’re a gamer, that’s still going to take a bit of time technically. I say I’m long-term bullish, but short term, I think it needs more work."

http://www.dualshockers.com...

Phil Harrison needs to just shut up. Cloud computing is this gen's 4D, 120 FPS, blast processing, toy story graphics PR that is never going to happen. Count on it.
caseh  +   309d ago
Blast Processing for the win!
solidjun5  +   309d ago
While I was reading the last phrase, I was hoping you ended it with "deal with it." lol.
BallsEye  +   309d ago
FFS man... watch the damn nvidia presentation..
IT WORKS
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Geez you n4g techs are getting annoying. Watch the vid and then make another comment that it is impossible.
DragonKnight  +   309d ago
So it's your contention that a video that seeks to make the claim that cloud enhanced lighting exists (meanwhile no information is given about the conditions of the testing, such as network connection speed etc...) is the same as the cloud making one Xbox One as powerful as 3 Xbox Ones?
BG11579  +   309d ago
In case you didn't saw Kayants reponse :
"Nvidia Cloudlight is also a tech demo, used GPU's for the rendering and was done in July 2013 in a controlled environment.

So when exactly will MS's work? 2 years? 4 years?? Also it doesn't go in line with what Yusuf Mehdi has said before as DragonKnight pointed out earlier ---> http://n4g.com/news/1362334... "
Funantic1  +   309d ago
@BallsEye. That's a great video. I had to save it to prove a point in future debates. It clearly shows that cloud computation can free up resources on the hardware. Mark Cerney should even watch this video. He obviously was trying to downplay cloud enhanced graphics and has never seen 300,000 servers at work. PS fanboys will be in denial still.
#4.6.3 (Edited 309d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(7) | Report
BallsEye  +   309d ago
@DragonKnight

Ah the denial...Did you even watch the video?? It shows real world conditions and up to 500ms latency. Thats answer to your network conenction. Since I travel around the world a lot I had plenty of different connections. from 1 mbps to 100 mbps. On slowest connection possible in asia (shitties providers ever) I had maximum of 340ms to other side of the world. This video does not seek to make a claim, this video is a proof made by Nvidia one of 2 biggest gpu tech(and more) companies out there. For sure they know what they are doing, and got more credibility than a random dude on n4g, such as you. Cheers!
#4.6.4 (Edited 309d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(7) | Report
DragonKnight  +   309d ago
@BallsEye: I did watch the video. The answer to your comment was given to you by BG11579. What I want to know is why you avoided my question.

Is it your contention that that video correlates to one Xbox One being as powerful as 3 or more Xbox Ones?
Edward75  +   308d ago
@ballseye.
Bub up.
I never commented to much about the cloud processing because I was unsure about it technically being viable. That video should be proof to anyone who thinks that cloud processing can't help in the future.

Maybe there is something to this "cloud" stuff.

People really need to watch this video.
rainslacker  +   308d ago
Perhaps you should read the tech papers on that video before you start putting it out there as proof.

http://graphics.cs.williams...

Biggest thing to point out.

"While design of rendering pipelines for PCs and consoles is reasonably well understood, design of Cloud pipelines is in its infancy.[In relation to asynchronous graphics processing]"

Note the word infancy. That means barely off the ground. MS is touting this as something for the here and now, or the very near future. Go through and look at the hardware required to run that for just 50 different clients, and note the drastic drop off of quality as more users are being processed.

Most people aren't saying it isn't possible, they're just saying it isn't going to be what MS says it will be any time soon.

What NVidia achieved in this demonstration is impressive. You would think that MS, being the apparent forerunner in delivering this technology into the home, could provide a suitable demonstration of their own.

Point of fact...
NVidia hasn't spent months saying how they're going to revolutionize cloud assisted graphics processing, they did the work, and put out a technical demo of it. They showed(or at least pointed out) it's limitations. They didn't use it as a selling point, because it's nowhere close to being consumer ready.

If MS wants people to believe them, if MS wants people to take them seriously on this, then they should take an example from NVidia on this. Surely by now they have similar tech demos and white papers available internally.

What they're doing is trying to get people to believe it's possible. It's PR hype, and I say show me proof and make me a believer.

NVidia in it's own reports says that there is still much work to do to make what they're showing a viable, working, consumer level solution. Now, I don't know about you, but I would take NVidia's claims about graphics processing in the future over MS any day.
#4.6.7 (Edited 308d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(0) | Report
imt558  +   309d ago
I bet that Phil has no idea what is the purpose of cloud. Such a bullshit from Phil's mouth. God damn!
Beastforlifenoob  +   309d ago
GUYS,
GDDR5 isnt "BETTER" than DDR3, GDDR5 has been around since 2008 and is based on DDR3 RAM but simply has more graphical capabilites. Its better for graphics but not for raw computation power especially considering GDDR6 and DDr4 are coming to PC next year.

Xbox one sucks but dont try and confuse matters with this majical "GDDR5 goodness". Also cloud does not need to be running massive quad titan SLI PCs all they need is a TONN of pagerfiles and ram. Not saying the xbox one is better, there business practices are questionable, but you shouldnt jump the gun, I know im going with a PS4/PC combo next year, PS4 for exclusives and PC for epic graphics.
Ohlmay   309d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(1)
creatchee  +   309d ago
I'm sure that it *CAN*, but real world, consistent performance on a massive scale (taking into account multiple users with varying connection qualities) remains to be seen.

Still, it would be awesome if this works.
ravinash  +   309d ago
It worked well for sim city.
DragonKnight  +   309d ago
That wasn't graphics enhancement, that was feature enhancement. The cloud computations for Sim City were also bull because it was proven that you can play the game entirely offline without noticing any difference in your game.
creatchee  +   309d ago
@DragonKnight

Exactly. SimCity's connectivity had nothing to do with cloud benefits and everything to do with DRM.
ravinash  +   309d ago
"below you can see a picture of one of the massive server farms that will offer their CPU power to the Xbox One’s cloud".

...Or it could be a stock photo, which is more likely.
DragonKnight  +   309d ago
Agreed. Plus, the server farms aren't JUST going to be used for Xbox One. Microsoft's Azure service will be for everything they have Windows 8 on as well such as phones, tablets, and PCs. Microsoft never mentions this when they are talking about the "Powah of da Cloud" with the Xbox One, but they didn't invest in that many servers just for the Xbox One.
bigboirock  +   309d ago
im pretty sher they said they had over 300,000 servers for xbox one many times
christian hour  +   309d ago
Bigboirock, you need to read up on what a virtual server is and start realizing that Microsoft love being vague to make something seem different/better than what it actually is, which is exactly what they're doing with all this cloud nonsense too.
rainslacker  +   308d ago
Given the state of what major investors seem to think of the Xbox line, I doubt any of it was specifically put up for Xbox use. Of course, none of it is specifically for Xbox use, and obviously there is a limit on the number of resources available to that division of MS on their servers....not unlike every single other client on their servers has a limit on how much they are allowed to process.

It is nice allocating resources dynamically though. Keeps resources from going to waste. Azure itself is a pretty impressive cloud system.
weirdo  +   309d ago
i smell sh1te
devwan  +   309d ago
Microsoft can't even make Kinect work reliably and without lag and they want us to believe xbox one graphics can be boosted via the cloud? smh
MethCupcakes  +   309d ago
Oh boy, here we go again. Seriously MS get off the stuff.
The Captain  +   309d ago
Coming from a guy who stated the 2005 KZ demo was in real time..... I would take what he says with a grain of salt.
DragonKnight  +   309d ago
Not to defend him, but if you're talking about KZ2, the final product looked BETTER than the demo. So, there's that.
ape007  +   309d ago
lol
SignifiedSix91  +   309d ago
Youre high if you think the final product looked better than the tech demo. Not even close!
nix  +   309d ago
^^^

i think the 2007 E3 video of KZ2 wowed everyone. every press who made issues out of the 2005 video hid their faces under the carpet. that moment when they touch down and it smoothly moves to FPS view was brilliant.

here's how they made it.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...
The Captain  +   309d ago
No, you are incorrect....
DestinyHeroDoomlord  +   309d ago
Back too the garden you graphic hoë's!
#11 (Edited 309d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
schubacca  +   309d ago
He is not disagreeing with Cerny's assessment. CPU resources earmarked for AI could be offloaded to the Cloud. This would free up the CPU for more graphic rendering tasks.

Of course, you would have to be online for this to happen.
THC CELL  +   309d ago
What means to get the best out of Xbox will always have to be connected ffs people are too thick to realize Xbox one is underpowered and then u have to get a much better connection as well as pay for Xbox live to enjoy the console at full power. Stick with ps4 at least developers will benefit less hassle and gamers can enjoy a dedicAted machine not a half baked rush money Grabbing xbone. For the record. I no gaikai will do something similar but Sony Are not forcing it on us, at below I mean cloud gaming. We will se. Games streamed to ps4 using gaikaI. By forcing oh buy this game at full price and oh to get the best out of it pay for broadband upgrade to live and boom full benefit. People without connections are going to be paying full price for half baked games.
#13 (Edited 309d ago ) | Agree(20) | Disagree(7) | Report | Reply
MethCupcakes  +   309d ago
Okay, I wish I revoke my agree. I agreed with you until you edited, changed your vision and started flinging FUD for agrees.
rainslacker  +   308d ago
Big publishers will be doing all that themselves with or without MS help. It's not hard to see the obvious signs that publishers are trying to force connectivity to offer "improved" features.

EA has even said it won't release games without a connected component. Expect over the next few years for games to become less and less when offline, and more and more features hidden away behind online functionality in the guise of improvements.

If you thought this gen of putting MT on things that used to be unlockables in a game, wait until everything is now behind covert DRM.
Raider69  +   309d ago
Bunch of liars.
BG11579  +   309d ago
The quality of the graphical improvement of xbone's games thanks to the Cloud will be the same as the quality of Microsoft conference's live-streaming in which it was re-announced...
#15 (Edited 309d ago ) | Agree(12) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
gaelic_laoch  +   309d ago
I honestly cannot get my head around how the Cloud can drastically improve graphics? Maybe AI but will the xbone end up just like Onlive by ending up just a game streaming device?
#16 (Edited 309d ago ) | Agree(14) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
Shakengandulf  +   309d ago
Yeah.. I don't fully understand it either. How do you send data over the network to improve visuals in the fraction of a second when it is needed?
schubacca  +   309d ago
Read the article. AI and like data will be sent to the cloud, making CPU room for graphics....
bigboirock  +   309d ago
these kids dont read theres many other comments just like this one
Idba  +   309d ago
Does that mean that people who play offline will have a worse experience than those who play online?

If MS said this in the start i think more people whouldn't be so aggressive towar the 24 -hours check in.
stuna1  +   309d ago
You 're comment is more true than you realise! I think people need to pay close attention to Phil's claim. This is another approach to the always online scenario!

Like it was stated above, does this mean that those who are not connected to an always online signal mean that they get a less graphical experience!? If what Phil is saying is true, they would. Microsoft is once again trying to sell the notion that always online is mandatory! It's just a lot more subtle.

I don't know if what they say is true... One way or the other! All anyone can go by is what they see, and in my opinion they have shown nothing to support their claims! Sony have shown their Giakia service to work, their cross play to work, and their Vita TV to work, why is Microsoft being so elusive and secretive as to whether their service works!? Especially considering the position they have placed themselves in.

I really believe this is just a prelude to Microsoft reverting back to past practices, and considering people have heard it from the horses mouth where Microsoft has went on record to state that their original vision is still viable and they are committed to it's implementation is just one of many signs that DRM as well as other restrictions are just on hold.
DragonKnight  +   309d ago
This is just further indication that always online is coming back, like you said, to the Xbox One as soon as MS can weasel it back in. Trust me, it'll be in a new EULA in the future and Phil Harrison is just the first to try and convince people that online is needed and cloud computing is why.

Praying on people's tendencies to want to have the better experience than others they know is sleazy but "smart" business. MS is going to let the blind Xbox fanboys who believe in this garbage to influence the people who may not know so much about it until BAM, always online supported by the ignorant.

How is Microsoft good for gamers at all?
pyramidshead  +   309d ago
lol wow. I guess he had nothing else to talk about.
IHassounah  +   309d ago
Your right Microsoft but holding out the GPU in the cloud needs some more time , meaning wait 20 years and you'll see people praising your technology (or just say "Sony did it first")
#19 (Edited 309d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(7) | Report | Reply
sandman224  +   309d ago
So that's where the graphics come from......It's really in the clouds. Why would they put a GPU/CPU in the consoles when it's all in the cloud. Nice try Microsoft.
gaelic_laoch  +   309d ago
Exactly, all we will need then is smart tv's with access to the cloud and we could all play graphically cutting edge games!

Until then I would want all I need in the box I pay 400+ for!
christocolus  +   309d ago
man ms is really spending big on their online infastructure....phil also states you can record video commentary along with the game clips...nice

www.vg247.com/2013/09/26/xbox -one-dvr-features-let-you-recor d-video-commentary-to-share-wit h-game-clips/
#21 (Edited 309d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(16) | Report | Reply
DragonKnight  +   309d ago
I see you're used to posting links on Youtube.
warczar  +   309d ago
I think they have spent a lot more on PR.
Sethry101  +   309d ago
I don't know enough about this to argue it, while I am extremely sceptical about cloud computing.

Either way I would rather have superior hardware then have to really on having a stable internet connect 24/7 to get the best experience.
THC CELL  +   309d ago
I say again ms has lost trust.Ms are at a point of begging to buy Xbox one now cause they no they a're going to lose next gen
jhoward585  +   309d ago
I don't doubt MS claims about the power of the cloud , but why haven't we seen a demo?

again, all talk but no action.
#24 (Edited 309d ago ) | Agree(12) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
bjmartynhak  +   309d ago
Yep, show me a live demo connecting and disconnecting from the cloud and I will bite my tongue
PSVita  +   309d ago
Notice he says the cloud "can" and not the cloud "will".

OT: I like how Yoshida answers his twitter questions with yes and no. You can't really dance around that.
chrissx  +   309d ago
Can't these m$ guys just shut up?
LogicStomper  +   309d ago
They could, but how do you sell a product without even telling people what it is?
True_Samurai  +   309d ago
They're probably testing out projects with the cloud behind closed doors...
THC CELL  +   309d ago
I think a better idea would of been separating all mp or online games from the disk and streaming full online battles wit. Cloud gaming, can u imagine halo with 1000s of players, stealth updates and New stuff added without downloads.
OrangePowerz  +   309d ago
The cloud again. It can be used for certain things, but not for things that are immediate. As example it could do AI for NPCs that run around somewhere in an open world game that the player doesn't interact with at that moment, but not AI as example for enemies in an FPS because they need to react immediately and not with extra delay. The same goes for physics, you can't do a racing game and have the crash physics done by cloud because the delay would be too big.

So the cloud you help out with mundane calculations for things that don't have to react fast and take that away from the console itself. On the other hand those things don't take up to much ressources in the first place so it wouldn't free up a lot ressources.
SilentGuard  +   309d ago
If MS is going to rely on the cloud for improved graphics, than the XBOne is going to be by default an always online/online required console. So much for them removing their mandatory online check-ins...you'll just have to be required to be online to play games that require "the power of the cloud"
LetoAtreides82  +   309d ago
The Cloud isn't going to improve graphics at all unless the Cloud includes GPUs. CPUs are highly inefficient at graphics rendering, that's why GPUs (graphics processing unit) were created to handle the graphics.

Even uber CPUs are horrible at graphics rendering, for example a top of the line cpu today would probably get around 5fps on the cpu demos from 3DMark06 (yes, a tech demo from 2006).
SignifiedSix91  +   309d ago
If i can play metro 2033 on my laptop with only an HD 4000 gpu on low and medium with a max res of 1366x768, im sure it can run that 2006 tech demo at a much faster frame rate than youre saying.
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