343 Industries designer David Ellis isn't too chuffed with Hideo Kojima's "erotic" - or as Kojima would now prefer to word it, "sexy" - Metal Gear Solid 5 character Quiet.
While I agree the design is pretty terrible, the art and design in Halo 4 was pretty generic and bad too.(making everyone angry here) Also "Sexuality can be used for purpose. I actually thought it worked in Bayonetta, for example. This feels lazy and exploitative" Oh, I see he has already played the game and knows her personality and back story. Also, I like how they Just focus on the women in the game and dont mention that Liquid Snake, and Raven were both Shirtless in Alaska, snake was naked in his briefing and shirtless in his torture scene, not to mention in MGS 2 Raiden was naked for a whole playable sequence. The sexuality in MG does not go one way, heck just look at the Boss, she wasnt portrayed sexually at All.People need to quit excluding stuff and look at the games portrayal of people as a whole.
" the art and design in Halo 4 was pretty generic and bad too." You are kidding me right? Halo is known for it's unique design, with really weird Forerunner structures and beautiful sky boxes. How on Earth is it generic? "Pretty generic and bad" are possibly the worst descriptions of it and couldn't be further from the truth. Have you played the game? I'm assuming you're talking about the art style in general because your comment was very vague. Regarding your point about the male characters 'exposing' themselves, there is a context to it. What is the context of a sniper fighting in a bikini? It seems silly but I wouldn't make as big an issue as Ellis did. "People need to quit excluding stuff and look at the games portrayal of people as a whole." Yeah and that's why Quiet's clothing (or lackthereof) doesn't make sense in the context of who she is supposed to be. Again however, I don't think it's that big an issue. But also, look at Cortana with her massive jugs. Was that really needed for an A.I construct? I don't know...
It isn't bad but it became pretty generic after halo 2 or 3 came out, after that it just the same game over and over again but fans don't care, it still a good game
i agree with Ellis, the idea of making stupid sexy characters in MGS just to sell more copies seems a little desperate. This changed my vision on MGS5 now. I hope Kojima focuses on delivering some solid gameplay and chara design instead of destroying woman picture more than it is already just to sell his game. i dont wanna play Metal Gear: Dead or Alive edition!
I wouldn't call Halo's design unique to be honest. For example, see the well documented copying of designs from the movie Aliens.
Bayonetta, lol, think about it, who would buy a game where some ugly women beat up monsters :)
Im a huge Halo fan, but 4's art was a huge step back for the franchise it lost much of its identity and took much of its base aesthetics from other franchises rather than from previous titles, its especially noticeable if you look at it compared to the masterpiece that was Reach. As for Quiet, Im trying to hold back my judgment until the game is released, for all we know that could be under clothing she is wearing for a small part of the game from after she escapes the torture stuff.
@KingKellog "Im a huge Halo fan, but 4's art was a huge step back for the franchise it lost much of its identity and took much of its base aesthetics from other franchises rather than from previous title" I have to completely disagree. Halo 4's art style carries on the legacy of original Halo:CE and takes it to a whole new level. It's what lingers on the most in my mind. It's look and feel is in a class of its own. Compared to Halo Reach, I think it shines through even more. Halo 4's level designs in terms of art style were the best ever since Halo:CE in my opinion. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Regarding Quiet; "for all we know that could be under clothing she is wearing for a small part of the game from after she escapes the torture stuff. And then chooses not to clothe herself afterwards? That seems like quite a stretch of the imagination, even for a Kojima title. Hideo might add some context to it later on but the core reasons for it are apparent now. But should it detract from the experience of the game? I don't think so.
Halo does look generic. Nothing about it is really that great. And as another user stated; why didn't you have a problem with the cortana model in Halo 4?
@KonsoruMasuta "And as another user stated; why didn't you have a problem with the cortana model in Halo 4?" If you're directing the question at me, look at my first post.
There is nothing unique about halo character design. It's very generic and boring, just like the game. The artist for metal gear Yoji Shinkawa would easily out design all the character artist for halo. http://www.vg247.com/2013/0...
Well why not make Cortana, a old over weight AI? This guy is a hypocrite.
@Clarence Yeah because that will really enhance the affinity between the player and Cortana right? Look at Halsey for proof.
Why are people surprised that the Japanese are making something exploitative? Look at half the shit that comes out of there: Rumble Roses, Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball, most fighting games - they love exploiting women. I don't agree with it, but it's hardly shocking to see another game do it. Also, this isn't the first time that MGS has done this with women. Remember all those tit shots of Naomi in 4? What about all the bosses in that game that were dressed in those tight ass body suits? This isn't the first or the last time we'll see something like this. As a side note, for someone to call Halo 4's art generic, I don't agree. Of course it was inspired by Alien - the developers have said so in the past. I don't see anything in the Alien movies that resembles the forerunner structures, though. Also, I have seen people say "Alien and other sci-fi franchises" do any of these people want to be specific, instead of making generalizations?
To be honest with you, a guy of this caliber has no business going after Kojima. Imagine if a production designer of some Transformer movie all of a sudden came out and said questioned a guy like Steven Spielberg and the direction of his latest film. He'd get puzzled looks all over the industry. That's exactly what's happening here. Some small potato going after a legend over his creative choices. To me, this is more than likely 99% this guy trying to make a name for himself than him actually being offended by the character design, make no mistake about it. Also, how will this effect future MGS games on Xbox if you have guys from your first party studio ripping the guy that made it? Could MGS6 be a PS4 exclusive? I say that likelihood just increased 10 fold.
Because 343 are the best right ? What about Cortana ?
Even though I don't like cortanas sex appeal, there's a good reason and context for her being that way. According to the story shes a very high ranking A.I. and her creator designed her like that intentionally so that when she gave orders or whatnot, the soldiers would listen, specially the males tend to be a lot more receptive to orders if they're given from a sexy female. Beyond that, cortana is a hologram, her appearance can be anything and 343 dont post half naked models of her just for sex appeal. Its fine if there's a reason for these models to be like that in game, which i doubt, but kojima is clearly advertising her sexuality. And for the people saying theres shirtless males too, well instead using that justification, why dont u just argue sex selling is wrong either way.
I'd just like to remind you that you're on N4G.
Hahahahaha I'm sorry but it might play well and is very popular but halo has for me and I'm sure many other become synonymous with "generic space marine design" the only game I'd say fits a generic stereotype is gears of war which has the whole generic steroid addled marine hardman/women thing going on with giant guns to compensate for...other things :p Although Quiets clothing I agree makes no sense, infact when me and my mate watched the E3 trailer we both burst out lauhing when we saw her because her attire was so rediculous. But tbh MGS isn't known for it's realism now is it? :p I doubt this hs been done JUST to sell more. There will be some story reason or symbolism in the way she dresses. Although I suspect she doesn't dress like that before she's tortured (see E3 trailer)a s that trailer suggests the electric current torture is what ruins her tights... but whatever. It's not like it's only the women in mgs that have this weird hyper sexuality thing accross the games... I mean did no one ever tell vamp to put a bloody shirt on for starters. Or liquid for tat matter who I seem to remember sheds half his clothing before the final fight in mgs4?
I wouldn't call Halo 4's blatant inspiration from Tron "unique" ;)
So, let me see if I got this straight. Females can't CHOOSE to use the freedoms they are given to want to bare their midriff, or be sexy or whatnot? Please tell me we're not shoving morality down throats here. We should tell females, then, that it's not okay to let their hair down and just be themselves if being themselves means showing off? If a female is strong willed and smart, then she can dress however the hell she WANTS to be dressed, and any author has the right to show that she HAS that freedom to do whatever the hell she wants to do and to dress however she wants to dress. We're pushing for females to be presented as equals in games, yet we want to force them into a situation where they can't dress "sexy" if they choose to dress like that while men can be near naked? C'mon! For the record, 343 doesn't know how this character will act, what her personalty is, or any of that.
Found the Halo fan.
@darkpower So, let me see if I got this straight, if a woman doesn't choose to be strong willed, and is stupid, then she CANT make her own decisions on how she dresses? Dont put words in peoples mouths, and get off your soap box. Most of peoples points are that woman should not be portrayed as just images to get guys going, and that their personality/character dev shouldn't be watered down. And yes a woman can dress how she wants, but dont expect her to be taken seriously if she is just trying to get a certain reaction from the male population. And to get on MY soapbox: It is ironic to me how some feminist use their sexuality as a way to show they are "equal" to men, when the very nature of it is to gain power over them
Uh OH butt hurt Halo Xbot...Yes Halo is generic....Halo seemed to somehow get even more generic when Bungie left and 343 made 4....Halo has been generic since 3
Skyboxes... Really? How about the more prominent designs, like BMX bicycle body armor yay!
Halo is not generic, dat masterchief poncho changed the game.
It's a game the designer can do whatever they want, isin't that what games should be about creativity and fun. Why should all games have to cohere to this as real as possible approach, look what it did for GTA IV, nothing!
Says the girl that designed Heylow 4. LOOOL.
As I said before... Typical Japanese marketing!
most people disagree.
"Halo is known for it's unique design, with really weird Forerunner structures and beautiful sky boxes. How on Earth is it generic?" What!? WTF are you smoking Halo is very generic and always has been. And also Reach a masterpiece? I can barely stand to play the game and the graphics suck and i really liked Halo 1 and like Masterchief (corny name though), but since then the series has just gone downhill for me
Loved halo1 and 2 Halo is lame and has jumped the shark NUFF SAID
Hideo Kojima Metal Gear Solid 5 >HALO 5 NUFF SAID
@dmeador: Who's putting words in whose mouth again? I didn't see me saying that anyone CAN'T dress how they want if they didn't possess strong will and determination. I didn't even imply that! You're trying to find a way to incriminate something I said...why, exactly? Do you think women SHOULDN'T be allowed to dress however they want without the morality police knocking on their proverbial door? Hey, you implied that I said something! How does it feel when the shoe's on the other foot? You know what I was saying. Of course some people that get on their own soapboxes (like you did before you said you were getting on yours, not seeing that you were already ON one) are going to say "how dare you dress like that" or "you're just contributing to the male patriarchy" when the people bitching might as well be contributing themselves. If someone doesn't like women being able to dress like that, then they should move to a country where women would KILL for such a freedom!
"i agree with Ellis, the idea of making stupid sexy characters in MGS just to sell more copies seems a little desperate." Yeah; but everyone does it, like Aliens:cm http://www.youtube.com/watc...
Well said Septic.
This Ellis guy is a DB and hypocrite. He claims it works for bayonetta but here its wrong? Dude bayonetta is 10x worst than this. His opinion went right out the window with that statement.
It isn't bad but it became pretty generic after halo 2 or 3 came out, after that it just the same game over and over again but fans don't care, it still a good game thank you these guys love to hear them selves talk 343 Industries got a game that already have a huge fanbase ((HALO)) and now they think there god of games shut the hell up i don't like the metalgear sexy character either but still
I agree they just jumped on bungies leftovers.
If Halo's art design is only generic because it set the damn standard. That's not generic, that's genre defining.
@swiggins Wouldnt you agree that Master Chief is a upgraded copy of the doom marine? http://fc03.deviantart.net/... Or Tribes 2 (2001) kind look like it could be the template for Halo's MP ? http://youtu.be/yR3Ftt07mDQ While Halo is a good fun game that changed the landscape of console FPSes....it is somewhat generic
In a previous post I said that Kojima was going to get a lot of heat for his choices. I got mixed agrees and disagrees for the most part. The point I was trying to make was that people are clearly on a witch hunt right now, so any hint of blatant sexuality is going to get a developer crucified. Either way, this Halo 4 designer doesn't have a leg to stand on after how they sexed up Cortana.
cleft Agreed. Love Halo AND Halo 4. But Ellis done fucked up!
Noooo. Why Halo why? I love you and you had to go say something like this? If there's anything you should be criticizing is the lack of an ass. Now i'm gonna have to read these assholes commenting on a game and a game series I love negatively. Damn it. Started out as such a good day too. And screw all of you that say the art was bad and story generic. The Didact is one of the best villians ever.
I love Halo 4 also and it is a shame that he is opening up Halo 4 to be criticized negatively.
Bayonetta is a ugly cow, if If I want to play a female character which I hate but if I have to she better be cute or something I dont wanna look at a porpoise, and to put a unattractive girl in a metal gear solid would be ignorant and unfitting.
I find it ironic that he cites a woman who acts like a pole dancer in a tight outfit who shucks her clothes at any given moment just to attack as Sexuality done right yet has qualms with a sniper wearing very little yet knowing nothing of how she actually acts in game. Besides, I'm sure that we'll see plenty of bare chested dudes running about and possibly another naked Raiden scene. As you said, Kellogg, MG is known for showing off both genders.
It gets ridiculous when the industry wears the guise of "all grown up -- mature" by shoveling mountains of foul language, gratuitous and often over the top absurd violence, AND THEN A RATED PG CHARACTER MODEL GENERATES THIS TYPE OF INDIGNATION?!?! Context argument or not, WHAT THE? For Kojima this has to be like being in the mob and being chastised by a bookie for running a gambling operation. Abundant F words do not automatically make something "mature". Violence does not automatically make something "mature". Neither does sex. Granted they do tend to make a great number of 10-20 year old boys feel like they've had a brush with manhood so they can call it mature. Sadly, this actually indicates that the desire for such is, in fact, typically an indication of retained immaturity (we can own it). Much of the time, these things are in the games because enough people enjoy them (and often justifiably so--it's a "game") -period. When someone in the industry goes on a self-righteous rant and -publicly- calls another respected figure out about a rated PG character model but neglects the rest, credibility, motive, and even character can rightly be called into question. I wonder if he attempted to send a text to Kojima's team to express his concerns over the matter first and they just didn't respond -- therefore, in his mind leaving him with no alternative.
+Bubs...well said...was thinking the same, but you articulated it so much better!
Halo 4's multiplayer maps are " Lazy & Exploitative" Shut up 343
@Spicelicka: That is how the A.I. warning systems in US Airforce aircraft were designed. My father said that when they first introduced the systems in aircraft, the voice was a male voice, and they found that the vast majority of pilots would just tune it out, especially under heavy g-force maneuvers. He said that they decided to switch the voices out with "attractive" female voices, and instantly the pilots were responding to the commands and suggestions. When you are in a controlled stall, on the verge of passing out, the female voice shouting "pull up now" (paraphrasing) made all of the difference. He said that it actually ended up greatly improving safety and efficiency. It only worked, though, with the female voice. If that was actually the logic behind Cortana's "sexy" redesign, it's actually a fairly realistic representation of military tech design. Back On Topic: I'm assuming that 343 has never played Metal Gear before. I remember the sniper chick from MGS PS1 being out in the cold, while everyone else was bundled up from the sub-zero temperatures, she was wearing a skin tight jumpsuit, unzipped down to her navel with her cleavage spilling out. I get that Kojima is one of the most revered creators in the entire industry and that some may feel that his work is of such caliber, that design like this is "beneath him" at this point, but Metal Gear has always featured woman that don't like combat gear. I don't get the outrage, but I also don't necessarily agree with the design choice. It is, what it is.
Men...are complaining about female sexual appeal in videogames. Hmm...alright now.
halo 4 designer opinion of MGS doesn't matter
Nothing like trying to save the world in a skimpy bikini top. Is that what you mean by purpose? Also not to attack the Halo front but what other games have the art and design of Halo that were before Halo?
You can't get people riled up if you take such a moderate approach though....:(
Oh and the new Cortana model for Halo 4 didn't become a little sexy compared to her past ones.
Someone should reply to them with this pic.
Have you seen this though? http://medialib.oxm.co.uk/s... I mean I have no words! She's about to go out killing people and sneaking about dressed like that? I know Kojima is Sony Deity but come on you guys, there is sexy and then there is just downright ridiculous and this is the latter!
If you want to sneak around in the jungle its going to be hot, the less cloths the better, and the more gear you have the more noise you make. Shes a realist
@ GameCents Her skin works like the Octocamo from MGS4, you can see it in the trailer(her eyes changing from black) so bearing that much skin would make sense as her skin works as a dynamic camo system
Graphic quality includes and they made her look more realistic?
I wonder what the purpose of giving her slightly sagged but also much bigger breasts was... Oh yeah, they already tried to cover up their bullshit by claiming it was because she adapted herself due to the time gap between Halo 3 and 4. Who cares anyway. Most of the western developers have been crap ever since Bioware died.
Obviously... because women's boobs grow over time based on the amount of information they accumulate.
Bioware is not the same Bioware in the past , most of Bioware employees are back at Microsoft in a studio called Black Tusk Studios
Nailed it bro ! :D
Ironically it didn't, they purposely toned it down and made it more realistic and human looking, for example, halo 3 had dead or alive esque breast physics. Halo 4, these physics were taken away and during cutscenes the camera doesn't linger on her naughty bits nearly as much as it did in previous games with WAY more closeups on her face to show off the impressive motion capture technology. AND, last time I checked, David Ellis isn't the person who designed Cortana in halo 4. -_-
Doesn't change the fact that he's too much of a coward to call out his own company/colleagues but has a level 99 internet tough-guy rank to call out kojima. As far as I'm concerned, he should get his own house in order before mouthing off. And Cortana has definitely been sexualized compared to previous versions. You people are saying it's ridiculous for a sniper to be wearing a bikini in the desert? Well why on earth does an AI companion need to be wearing a string bikini? What does that add to anything? Why couldn't she be wearing actual clothes? Why not have her model resemble Alex Vance? I'll tell you why. It's because SEX SELLS. Kojima came right out and said it while Ellis is standing behind some bullshit holier-than-thou pulpit.
Yeah but there is a difference between rendering a characters proportions more realistically over time (she is still digital and partially see through) and putting a character in a leather bikini and torn fishnet stockings. Not realizing the difference is just claiming ignorance.