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Submitted by HardTileD_ 237d ago | image

Hot Chips: Microsoft's Xbox One SoC has 47 MBytes Cache / 204 GB/s peak BW

Msoft XBox One SoC has 47 MBytes cache in 363mm2 die!

In the pic of the architectural design you'll see the "theoretical throughput" of 204 GB/s peak BW. Confirming Digital Foundry's inside claims. (Industry, Microsoft, Xbox One)

Credit url: twitter.com
Alternative Sources
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greenpowerz  +   237d ago
K

Buttery popcorn is needed

Convas

They were right in what context and the popcorn? Seems to be unexpectedly stronger than originally thought.

" Bandwidth is at a premium in the Xbox One owing to the slower DDR3 memory employed in the console, which does not compare favourably to the 8GB unified pool of GDDR5 in the PlayStation 4. The 32MB of "embedded static RAM" within the Xbox One processor aims to make up the difference, and was previously thought to sustain a peak theoretical throughput of 102GB/s - useful, but still some way behind the 176GB/s found in PlayStation 4's RAM set-up. Now that close-to-final silicon is available, Microsoft has revised its own figures upwards significantly, telling developers that 192GB/s is now theoretically possible."

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
#1 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(59) | Disagree(94) | Report | Reply
SuperLupe  +   237d ago
Can somebody please explain what the heck does all this mean ? Sorry Im no spec nut :)
#1.1 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(52) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
MeanGr33n   237d ago | Spam
NewMonday  +   237d ago
it means only 32mb can go threw the fast ESRAM, witch means very limited application for it, the bulk of data will have to go threw the slow DDR3 ram, this mostly effects textures and loading time.
HammadTheBeast  +   237d ago
Essentially, this: http://images.wikia.com/dra...

Basically this just confirms the rumors, the same things from a week ago are true.
#1.1.3 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(41) | Disagree(49) | Report
LaChance   237d ago | Off topic | show
MysticStrummer  +   237d ago
It means nothing has changed, but some people forgot the definition of the word "theoretical".
Gman0173   237d ago | Spam
thechosenone  +   237d ago
Gaf breaks it down...nothing has changed it's still...

PS4 > Xbone :D xD :P :3 :O

http://www.neogaf.com/forum...
#1.1.7 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(96) | Disagree(73) | Report
Gman0173   237d ago | Spam
black0o  +   237d ago
ESRAm helps nothing more .. and thanks to it we may see the same thing happened this's cur-gen where Xbox holds ps back just to let games being fit into HD-DVD instead of bluRay
MgS4 30+
GOW 40+
UC3 40+ GB ..etc mean while FF13-2 were 7 GB for the poor x360

now will have to deal with files been fit into 32mb or 47 mb so x1 can run it smother, while the ps4 is setting on 8 GB

I bet ps exclusive will shine more this up coming gen much more the cur-gen
ThatCanadianGuy514  +   237d ago
PS4: 1152 Shaders
Xbone: 768 Shaders

PS4: 72 Texture units
Xbone: 48 Texture units

PS4: 32 ROPS
Xbone: 16 ROPS

Not even counting the the superior ram and ram setup, still just Means that PS4 is massively more powerful then xbox.
#1.1.10 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(167) | Disagree(72) | Report
tokugawa   237d ago | Personal attack | show
tuglu_pati  +   237d ago
@tokugawa

agree

anyone can go and sign up in neogaf and comment, the info from there is as reliable as in here.
#1.1.12 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(17) | Disagree(23) | Report
Ritsujun  +   237d ago
GP and her nasty green mind.
NewMonday  +   237d ago
people angry at facts

notice non of the XB1 fans try to give a credible explanation because the truth is hard to take.
georgeenoob   237d ago | Trolling | show
tuglu_pati  +   237d ago | Well said
The ESRAM is still essentially its own thing, memory read/writes to it can be 109 gbs right through to 204gb/s, but it's now a two way communication, not just a framebuffer cache like it was on the 360.

What that really means is post processing/defferred rendering is slick. Hellishly slick. Rendering is again, a one way traffic system, but any post processing can happen soon as the frame is created in the ESRAM. No GPU to DDR3 read/writes. All win win stuff (like last gen).

Clock speed increase means it has a throughput advantage (over PS4)in terms of the rate at which it process data, with almost zero stall pipeline in place. Very slick. OP/s still low compared to the opposition, but there is enough here to suggest that it will run efficiently enough.

Outside of the raw compute advantage on the GPU (for PS4), the Xbox one has a faster HSA bus, running at 30gb/s compared to "nearly 20gb/s).
It's all half a dozen of one and 6 of the other, someplace's XBO has advantages, others it doesn't.

Raw rendering, hell I wouldn't be at all concerned, it appears there's more than enough caches, and with the esram, and the dedicated swizzle hardware, this will hold it's own.

A good solid piece of kit that shows what a closed box customized system can do to beef up individual components.

Color me far more impressed with the dedicated silicon than I would have been if they had just taped the GPU and CPU together.
There is some smart stuff in here, wherever they know the CPU or GPU are gong to be bogged down doing mundane stuff, they have added silicon to alleviate it.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum...

that seems like a good summary.
Bigpappy  +   237d ago
Nice to see N4G has so many engineers. Hope to get a chance to use their products in the near future.

As far as the spec's are concern, I am a Tech, not an engineer. I know what FSB, clock speed, Bandwidth... ) all that tech stuff means. I am no engineer though. I will look at the quality of the games an discuss those when released. The features, which make the console more of a pleasure to use, are also more important that over all power. But if the PS4 turns out to do way better graphic than Xbox 1, that could be a selling point for many gamers, if it turns out like this gen, People talked up Teraflop and cell to high heavens, then when the games came, most looked better on 360, could happen here.

release the games and let's see. That is all that really matters in the end. No?
ChrisW  +   237d ago
@DayZ,

Yet... Even with Kinect, XboxOne should be cheaper because of its crappy low specs. Seriously! Isn't it odd that it's not?!?
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Ritsujun   237d ago | Trolling | show
tuglu_pati  +   237d ago
Also, what the 8GB Flash memory are for? Really interesting...
#1.1.20 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(3) | Report
Tw1tch3D  +   237d ago
What needs to be taken into consideration, is that this is an SoC. A single chip system, everything is on a "silicon die".

So as a result if the ESRAM points directly at the GPU, that alleviates the CPU in it's own right committing to other tasks. Just because it's DDR3 don't mean it's slow, it's fast because of low latency, significant Data Flow.

The design was built from the ground up, no beefy components simply put together.

Don't want to ruffle any feathers, but that is a major leap in architectural design Microsoft brought it's A game here folks.

@ tuglu_pati

Yes very interesting. What's more, is that Microsoft had a tutorial yesterday at Hot Chips called "Flash Trends: Challenges and Future".

We'll find out more once the techies hop on this. But I'm on beyond 3d as we speak and it's as much buzz. Very interesting, scratches that exotic architecture itch i've been hoping for out of the new optimized hardware.
#1.1.21 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(23) | Disagree(5) | Report
badz149   237d ago | Trolling | show
Rockxy   237d ago | Off topic | show
rainslacker  +   237d ago
To expand on Dayz comment, since big numbers are nice, but not as nice as knowing what you're getting with those big numbers, I offer the following.

Shader: A program that is used to do shading. Basically, when you have a polygonal model, the models aren't always completely lifelike. For instance, a sphere can look blocky. A shader can help make it look smooth. In addition shaders can apply special effects to models, or even 2D images. Shaders handle how the final texture will look when on the screen. The more shaders, the more can be done at one time.

Texture units: These are used to map the actual textures onto a model. Textures are flat images that have to be drawn on the model's polygons. These textures can be used not only as the basic colors of the image, but also the light texture, bump textures(which give it more realistic looks), or any number of other special textures used to effect the way a model looks when it's finally rendered. Basically, the more you have, the more that can be done at one time.

ROPS: Short for "Raster Operation Unit". This is a bit more complex, but the basics of it is that before the image is displayed, each pixel is processed to give it it's depth information. This is where AA comes from, as well as many other nifty pixel and screen effects. Again, the more you have, the better the image can theoretically look.

Otherwise, I can offer this to those that don't care what all this means. All these specs discussed here means that the X1 will be able to play next gen games. It's not a bad set up. Has advantages and disadvantages, and like all consoles to date will require talented devs to make the most of what it offers.
#1.1.24 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(0) | Report
stuna1  +   237d ago
Microsoft is lying! Plain and simple, with those specs it just doesn't add up once you add in the fact that they said they up clocked the CPU.
TheKayle1  +   237d ago
@black0o

do urself (and to us!!) a favour PLS before u start try talking technically again..go to study...

whta u said is a freaking big nonsense BS lol
MagnusX  +   236d ago
Microsoft is revising there specs saying that "its much faster then we previously calculated" lol
DonFreezer  +   236d ago
No we can't. Why haven't you asked the same when Sony pr chaps talked shit about teraflops , rops and shit?Why do you need explaining know when most of you played it computer engineers when Sony talked nonesense.Shut your mouth ps fanboys.Xbox One has won before the game even started.
UltimateMaster  +   236d ago
Yeah, cuz you know if it comes from a website called semiaccurate.com then it must be true :D!
Kryptix  +   236d ago
@DonFreezer

Pre-order numbers for PS4 games say otherwise.

http://www.vgchartz.com/pre...

Wait, you're denying the higher PS4 numbers? Damn, you're more blind than I actually thought.
NextGen24Gamer  +   237d ago | Well said
This is something I knew a ways back and thought that Microsoft would explain that to the masses. They never did and it's obvious this is "HUGE" news to those who think that "RAW" power means anything.

Microsoft has been showing & talking about the next gen games, while Sony has been talking about the numbers.

Maybe now people can stop talking about numbers and let the "GAMES" do the talking.

I know this for a "FACT"...Developers have been pleasantly surprised once they got the final Xbox one specs & software tools.

It's actually BETTER than they initially thought.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

"It's all about the games"

My personal taste is I love xbox exclusives a little more and I love the xbox live community a lot more.
No_Limit  +   237d ago | Well said
Agreed Elite,

Games as it should be. Specs is fine the way it is.
LaChance  +   237d ago | Well said
This would explain why there is no gap whatsoever in graphics betwen Xbox One and PS4. On the contrary, Xbox One games are actually looking to be more impressive graphically.

Its just that MS shows the power rather than talking about it.

I have yet to see a game that looks as good as Ryse running on the PS4. And with all that incredible power Cerny is talking about I would have thought Driveclub could give Forza 5 a run for its money. On the contrary, Forza 5 is making DriveClub look last gen.

Its quite surprising to see that all these N4G engineers were completely wrong about the power of both consoles ... NOT !
zebramocha  +   237d ago
@elite the reason Sony talked about numbers is they already have devs to really utilize the hardware,killzone 2 and halo 3 weren't launch games but there is a difference in the way the look and I'm not to talking about art direction differences,considering bungie had been with Ms longer than gg with Sony
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black0o  +   237d ago
there's gap between ps4 and x1 is the same gap between ddr3 and GDDr5
UnHoly_One  +   237d ago
Most gamers won't choose their console because of a bunch of specs that they don't understand anyway.

They are going to choose it based on the games, and how they look. And right now, the PS4 can't touch Ryse, it's not even close.
XabiDaChosenOne  +   237d ago
Am I missing something? What is being confirmed here that hasn't been in the rumored specs for months now? What's wrong with you people?
black0o   237d ago | Trolling | show
UnHoly_One  +   237d ago
God of War 3 is a fantastic game, yes.

But I am strictly speaking graphics, which is what "Joe Average Gamer" will see in commercials and base his decision on.

And in that regard, yes, Ryse looks better than anything they have shown on the PS4 so far.

I'm not trying to start an argument here, I'm getting a PS4, too, it's all good. (I just wish inFAMOUS Second Son was a launch title, because I don't care about any of the other games announced for the PS4 so far.)
jony_dols   237d ago | Trolling | show
bobshi  +   237d ago
Nothing says 'I admit the Xbox One is weak next to the PS4' like saying 'who cares, it is about the games'.

Dat Wii U defensive technique.

Did it ever cross your mind that those games would be even better if the console was not so weak compared to the competing console?
Good_news_every1  +   237d ago
So now that devs have been saying the ps4 is more powerful and then we get this news confirming the ps4 is more powerful , we now are talking about games ? Lol you xboners are funny, if you haven't seen anything that looks better than ryse you aren't trying very hard , second son looks miles ahead and it's open world kill zone looks far better and it's 1080p 60fps and even forza looks better on the same system lol you guys are crazy or just blind.

Nfs has been said to look like a pc game on one console , which as we know now via specs is the ps4 and yoshi pretty much confirmed it days ago, the ps4 doesn't need pc gameplay to look good it runs on the actual hardware , most games still haven't even been seen running on the xbone.

Well at least now we can put the power argument to rest , we ALL know now that the ps4 is at least 40% better
UnHoly_One  +   237d ago
"those games would be even better if the console was not so weak compared to the competing console"

And

"it would undoubtedly run just as pretty if it was on the PS4's more powerful hardware"

Ummmmmmm... Ok, so why isn't it? Not Ryse, obviously, it's an XB1 exclusive, but if games in general are going to look better on this "more powerful hardware", where are they? Why haven't we seen anything that looks better?

I have no doubt that the PS4 will produce some amazing looking titles, but as it stands RIGHT NOW leading up to launch, the XB1 is winning in the visual department.
starchild  +   237d ago
@Bobshi

Why? That's what Sony gamers are always telling us PC gamers. "who cares if graphics are better on PC, it's all about the games", they tell us.

So why is it wrong for Xbox gamers to say the same thing?

Besides, that doesn't seem to be what most of them are saying. They are saying that they think Ryse looks better than anything on PS4.
ZeroX9876  +   237d ago
can someone make it clear for me, what console got the most preorders? what's the most wanted console after seeing what we needed to see?
shadow2797  +   237d ago
"Microsoft has been showing & talking about the next gen games, while Sony has been talking about the numbers."

Are we being serious right now? Microsoft unveiled their console and talked about TV. Sony unveiled their console and talked about games. And they've been talking about games ever since.

Sony also released the spec's of their console because some people are interested in that (me included). Microsoft refused to release the specs of their console until today.

Your interpretation of that history, is that Microsoft is all about the games, and Sony is all about the numbers? Even though Sony was first to allow self-publishing and has given the lime-light to small indie titles. Yep, all about numbers.

I'm getting both consoles. PS4 first, probably. But man, your perspective is off with that statement.

Oh and Killzone: Shadow Fall looks better than Ryse.
MysticStrummer  +   237d ago
@Kobe - "Am I missing something? What is being confirmed here that hasn't been in the rumored specs for months now? What's wrong with you people?"

You're not missing anything. Just some grasping at straws.

It's really weird to me that people hold Ryse up as the visual pinnacle so far. There are better looking multi plats and exclusives on both consoles.

"PS4 can't touch Ryse"

Laughable. smh

But, that type of person shows that graphics discussions are indeed meaningless. If they think Ryse looks amazing compared to titles (on both consoles) that are demonstrably more impressive visually, then what's the point of arguing? They either have a different definition of what looks good, or their vision needs checking. Either way, changing their mind is out of the question.
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MRMagoo123   237d ago | Trolling | show
Mr1Y  +   237d ago
What if the devs for need for speed were actually talking about the Xbox one since they thought that the Xbox one would be weakier.... So the game would look better on the Xbox :0
#1.2.18 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(6) | Report
pivotplease  +   237d ago
I would be open to preferring Xbox exclusives if there were enough (not just timed). Have people already forgotten that the last 3 years of the 360's life have had a dismal lineup? Disagree with the truth if you want. It also doesn't help that 343 is on halo now and cliff has departed from epic. Fable has also been going down the crapper in a similar manner to insomniac if not worse.
pivotplease  +   237d ago
Ugh the fanboys are blind. Ryse will get mediocre scores but if we're talking graphics it's hardly leaps and bounds ahead of what we saw with god of war this gen. Of course the people saying otherwise wouldn't know though since they didn't play any of the ps3 exclusives. Also have you see the HD footage of killzone multiplayer? The games not even done but it blows away every other fps graphically and even somewhat high end games like ryse (which is essentially scripted cutscenes that depend on qte).

Edit: your disagree makes you objectively right buddy.
#1.2.20 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(14) | Disagree(6) | Report
Dasteru  +   237d ago
UnHoly_One:

RYSE does look good but to say nothing on the PS4 is even close is a blatantly fanboy statement.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Maybe not quite as good but not so far behind as to be considered "not even close" It is also fully open world and has a very high level of environmental destructability which makes it much more impressive than it seems at first sight.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

KZSF is no slouch either, Again some very open environments.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Multi-Platform, Completely open world, and online multiplayer with real time dynamic events.

The PS4 isn't nearly as far behind as you make it out to be. Also it hasn't even launched yet. Give it a year or 2 after launch for some of the heavy hitter first party titles to launch and you will start to see what the PS4 can really do.

As far as people comparing Driveclub vs Forza 5, According to the developers of Driveclub, the most recently shown gameplay video is still Pre-Alpha footage, around 35% complete, Pre-Alpha means the completed textures aren't even in the game yet.
I'm not saying Forza 5 won't still look better, i don't know one way or the other, just saying wait til after launch to decide.
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neoMAXMLC  +   237d ago
lol @ Ryse being claimed as the best looking next gen game. That is just pure comedy.
DoesUs  +   237d ago
It means as was "leaked" before really, only this goes into absolute detail(s). The peak bandwidth figure is the theoretical maximum. But remember, although the BW available on the ESRam is very high, only 32 meg can be utilised.
Ju  +   237d ago
The 204GB/s is a best case if you can exactly issue one read and one write access @ 102GB/s which is very unlikely and a pure theoretical value.
HammadTheBeast   237d ago | Bad language | show | Replies(2)
GraveLord  +   237d ago
It's isn't any more or less powerful than it was 1 month ago.
DoesUs  +   237d ago
Correct answer.
quenomamen  +   237d ago
Well in theory I could fart so loud that I could break the sound barrier, but pobably not gonna happen. This is just MS trying to make up for the hardware shortcummings. Yea, we know, if you use a bunch of technical mumbo jumbo then it makes it true.
DoctorJones  +   237d ago
Well no, theoretically you couldn't fart so loud that you would break the sound barrier because you aren't capable of delivering a fart that could be faster than the speed of sound. It's about how fast something is, not how loud it is. Every time you fart and make a sound - it's not a sonic boom, it's just the sound of the gas exiting your body.

So in conclusion - The Xbox IS theoretically capable of what is being said, whereas your fart isn't theoretically capable of what you are saying it is theoretically capable of.

Yes.
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PeaceKeeper   237d ago | Spam
Evilsnuggle  +   237d ago
32 mb is to small for graphic or frame rate the PS4 has a large pool of unified memory that can be used for anything the developer want . The PS4 memory has no limitations the xbone does. Mark cerny look at eSRAM but did not use it becuase of its limitations . So the xbone is still 62GB/s for graphic and frame rate .difference, and was previously thought to sustain a peak theoretical throughput of 102GB/s - useful, but still some way behind the 176GB/s found in PlayStation 4's RAM set-up.
Gameratheart   237d ago | Offensive
imt558  +   237d ago
Did someone noticed that DDR3 bandwith is shrinked :

http://i.imgur.com/LkCN75O....

Oh, i forgot! eSRAM can't do read/write operations at the same time so it's not 204 GB/s it's 102 GB/s.
Convas  +   237d ago
Sorry to burst your (enthusiastically INCORRECT) bubble, but ... http://i.imgur.com/gqyaZAM....

Yeah. DDR3 BW is still the same. :)
awi5951  +   237d ago
PS fans all they can say DDR5 DDR5 DDR5 DDR5 lol.

DDR5 wont mean crap at all to games. AMD used DDR5 for years before nividia made the switch and AMD cards still lost out in performance and FPS in games on max settings. The AMD cards that gen were cheaper and thats why people bought them but DDR5 didnt help one bit they still got their asses kicked in-game FPS performance by the so called slow nividia cards with DDR3.
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andrewsqual  +   237d ago
It was pretty much proof when Microsoft were terrified to just tell us the specs back on 21st May. And even these documents are STILL not directly from the source.
MazzingerZ  +   237d ago
Que? Games won't look better than PS4 first party titles even if you could control a satellite with the x1 so...
FrigidDARKNESS  +   237d ago
In all honest the xb1 clearly will out prtform the ps4 . 47mb cpu vs a 20gb cpu. Still waiting for ijnfo on how many threads coan be done on the cpu. The gpu hasnt been revealed yet.
pyramidshead  +   237d ago
How's that HSA Kaveri working out for the XB1 there frigy? ;)
Metfanant  +   237d ago
WTF!?....

i mean you've got to just be joking right now right??...or you just have no clue...

wtf does 47mb cpu vs 20gb cpu even mean!?
MysticStrummer  +   237d ago
In all honest you're wrong. You keep saying "X hasn't been revealed yet", even though every time we get rumors confirmed it's the same hardware we've all been talking about for months. Nothing has changed, and PS4 is still more powerful.
marison  +   237d ago
He's a boy that don't know anything!
M-M  +   237d ago
"47mb cpu vs a 20gb cpu"

I think you need to do some research on CPUs before you say anything lol.
rainslacker  +   237d ago
Perhaps you can explain the difference between a 47mb cpu and a 20gb cpu to those that don't understand tech that well.
deadie  +   237d ago
@FrigidDARKNESS:

wow - in all honesty you should stop making xbox one look like the perfect hang-around for people with mental problems.
ThanatosDMC  +   237d ago
Never go full retard.... even on N4G that's just embarrassing.
imt558  +   237d ago
About XO presentation and about bandwith. Microsoft's bullshiting again!

Ars Technica

Similarly, the company claimed that there was more than 200GB of bandwidth within the system. Again, the number had no context or clarification and if rumors are to be believed, it suggests some rather creative accounting: 68 GB main memory bandwidth, 102GB bandwidth to an embedded SRAM buffer for the GPU, and 30GB bandwidth between the CPU and GPU. While that does add up to 200GB, there are no two parts of the SoC that can communicate with each other at 200 GB/s.

AnandTech

According to their data, there’s roughly 50GB/s of bandwidth in each direction to the SoC’s embedded SRAM (102GB/s total bandwidth). The combination of the two plus the CPU-GPU connection at 30GB/s is how Microsoft arrives at its 200GB/s bandwidth figure, although in reality that’s not how any of this works.

TechPowerup

Xbox One chip is a slightly different beast. It uses the same eight "Jaguar" 1.60 GHz cores, but a slightly smaller Radeon GPU that packs 768 stream processors, and a quad-channel DDR3-2133 MHz memory interface, which offers a memory bandwidth of 68.3 GB/s, and holding 8 GB of memory. Memory between the two subsystems are shared in a similar way to PlayStation 4, with one small difference. Xbox One chip uses a large 32 MB SRAM cache, which operates at 102 GB/s, but at infinitesimally lower latency than GDDR5. This cache cushions data-transfers for the GPU. Microsoft engineers are spinning this off as "200 GB/s of memory bandwidth," by somehow clubbing bandwidths of the various memory types in the system.
Cryptcuzz  +   237d ago
There is no way to look at it otherwise. The facts are as clear as day that believing otherwise is just delusional. Thanks for gathering all the relevant information in one concise comment. Cheers.
humbleopinion  +   236d ago
Yep. Exactly like the PS3 "512 MB or RAM" last gen where in fact it was two different pools.
Pillsbury1  +   237d ago
You are back? -_-
kryteris  +   237d ago
I first heard that 192ish G/Bs was possible, but then it switched to 102. But I really dont care, this is just more trouble for devs to use esram, and it is still limited vs having the full pool of ram.
Gameratheart  +   237d ago
Yeah, so much trouble, because they haven't gotten used to using that type of ram set up for the last 8 years, you know, the one that was so much easier and better than the ps3 ram set up.... Ok, you fanboys keep telling yourselves that developers don't know how to use it. Sure.
B-radical  +   237d ago
Why did you get disagreed for your telling the truth
nosferatuzodd  +   237d ago
wow microsoft is trying very hard give em props
The_Infected  +   237d ago
So is the 8Gb flash used for the OS? If so want that leave all 8Gb ram for games?
rainslacker  +   237d ago
No. That 8GB is a storage flash, similar to what you would see in the Wii U or mobile devices. It doesn't have the speed to run an operating system the way MS is showing.

It could be used for things like storing the OS, storing the flash and it's updates, providing flash backup, one person mentioned storing game states for a suspended game to resume it quickly, etc.

One interesting use though for games is that it could be used as a virtual memory unit similar to the way Windows does virtual memory. This would in essence increase access to pre-loaded information that it could get faster than off the hard disk. Typically the hard drive is a huge bottleneck in any computer, and flash is significantly faster. Think of the difference between a standard hard drive and an SSD...although not quite as extreme unless it's really fast flash memory.
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moparful99  +   237d ago
@rainslacker That's actually what devs ended up doing on the PS3 to avoid the memory bottleneck. They would pre-load assests into an allocated cell core.. Its not the same thing as using flash memory but its a similar tactic.. I think it's something that devs will be utilizing more and more..
theWB27  +   237d ago
I was reading that AnandTech article PSboys like to throw out there about how much better the PS4 is and a few things jumped out...especially with the confirmation today that , indeed, the X1 has 47mb of cache.

Memory Subsystem
"To make up for the gap, Microsoft added embedded SRAM on die (not eDRAM, less area efficient but lower latency and doesn't need refreshing). All information points to 32MB of 6T-SRAM, or roughly 1.6 billion transistors for this memory. It’s not immediately clear whether or not this is a true cache or software managed memory. I’d hope for the former but it’s quite possible that it isn’t. At 32MB the ESRAM is more than enough for frame buffer storage, indicating that Microsoft expects developers to use it to offload requests from the system memory bus. Game console makers (Microsoft included) have often used large high speed memories to get around memory bandwidth limitations, so this is no different. Although 32MB doesn’t sound like much, if it is indeed used as a cache (with the frame buffer kept in main memory) it’s actually enough to have a substantial hit rate in current workloads (although there’s not much room for growth)."

"Vgleaks has a wealth of info, likely supplied from game developers with direct access to Xbox One specs, that looks to be very accurate at this point. According to their data, there’s roughly 50GB/s of bandwidth in each direction to the SoC’s embedded SRAM (102GB/s total bandwidth). The combination of the two plus the CPU-GPU connection at 30GB/s is how Microsoft arrives at its 200GB/s bandwidth figure, although in reality that’s not how any of this works. If it’s used as a cache, the embedded SRAM should significantly cut down on GPU memory bandwidth requests which will give the GPU much more bandwidth than the 256-bit DDR3-2133 memory interface would otherwise imply. Depending on how the eSRAM is managed, it’s very possible that the Xbox One could have comparable effective memory bandwidth to the PlayStation 4. If the eSRAM isn’t managed as a cache however, this all gets much more complicated."

"There are merits to both approaches. Sony has the most present-day-GPU-centric approach to its memory subsystem: give the GPU a wide and fast GDDR5 interface and call it a day. It’s well understood and simple to manage. The downsides? High speed GDDR5 isn’t the most power efficient, and Sony is now married to a more costly memory technology for the life of the PlayStation 4."

"Microsoft’s approach leaves some questions about implementation, and is potentially more complex to deal with depending on that implementation. Microsoft specifically called out its 8GB of memory as being “power friendly”, a nod to the lower power operation of DDR3-2133 compared to 5.5GHz GDDR5 used in the PS4. There are also cost benefits. DDR3 is presently cheaper than GDDR5 and that gap should remain over time (although 2133MHz DDR3 is by no means the cheapest available). The 32MB of embedded SRAM is costly, but SRAM scales well with smaller processes. Microsoft probably figures it can significantly cut down the die area of the eSRAM at 20nm and by 14/16nm it shouldn’t be a problem at all.

"Even if Microsoft can’t deliver the same effective memory bandwidth as Sony, it also has fewer GPU execution resources - it’s entirely possible that the Xbox One’s memory bandwidth demands will be inherently lower to begin with."

An answer to the people complaining about the X1 and it's power brick.

"Compared to the PlayStation 4, Microsoft should have the cooler running console under load. Fewer GPU ALUs and lower power memory don’t help with performance but do at least offer one side benefit."
Ju  +   237d ago
I think one line is enough:

"Microsoft should have the cooler running console under load"

That's why they have the bigger box and an external power supply. This must be it then.
moparful99  +   237d ago
Really? Last I checked the 360 has always had an external power brick but had an abysmal failure rate compared to the more complex and powerful PS3.. Just because the brick is external doesn't mean it will run cooler..
ThanatosDMC  +   237d ago
PS4 = more powerful, cost less, no power brick

Xbone = less powerful, cost more, big ass power brick
ALLWRONG  +   237d ago
All the talk about specs and yet X1 games look better.
MagnusX  +   236d ago
It is true Ryse is the best looking game on any next gen console period. 1080 60fps if PS is such a power house And easier to develop for where are the yields!?

truth is the consoles are close in specs...Again! Just like last gen it will be up to developers to max out console potential.
cesuf  +   237d ago
For all these number crunching console fanboys arguing over table scraps and such petty numbers and "facts" and I could give my gaming pc specs and put your numbers to complete shame.

But it would be pointless to such brain washed fans because then the fall back excuse I would get would be 1 of 3: we have exclusives 2.) sony loves us and baptized our children. Hopeless bunch. 3.) consoles are better because they are cheaper
Gamer1982  +   237d ago
That ESRAM will help the dashboard NOT the games as theres just not enough of it to make a big enough impact.
BallsEye  +   237d ago
Clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
marcofdeath  +   237d ago
ps4- 1.6 billion triangles/s, 1.6 billion vertices/s

XB1- 1.71billion triangles/s, 1.71 billion vertices/s
imt558  +   237d ago
I was thinking in my head for some stuff. So, MS showed bandwith on XO presentation yesterday. 204 GB/s, right. So, GPU uplock happened. Before uplock eSRAM bandwith was 102 GB/s ( it's not 204 because eSRAM can not do read/write operation at the same time ). Now, after uplock, bandwith increased to 109 GB/s, or math like Microsoft - 218 GB/s.

I have a question. Did anyone noticed on presentation why MS didn't showed 109 GB/s for eSRAM or 218 GB/s on some slides?

What Beyond3D said :

Q:

I'll start: where does "204MB/s" come from? we know It is assumed that bus from eSRAM to GPU is not dual so how can it be possible to read and write simultaneously? even if it's possible why is it not 109*2 =218 GB/s?

A:

It based on during only alpha transparency blending. So it just created math.

Its like saying my car can do 250 MPH*

*When drop off a cliff.

It doesnt have real world performance like that.

So, Microsoft has no idea how RAM works and how many bandwith's has in XO. BRAVO Microsoft!
#1.24 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
ALLWRONG  +   236d ago
"Microsoft has no idea how RAM works"

One of the pioneer's of PC doesn't know how RAM works? You should have thought about that before typing.
Convas  +   237d ago
The machine is even stronger than Digital Foundry reported then?

ROFL

Where's my popcorn!?

GAF Thread for those interested: http://www.neogaf.com/forum...

Interesting tidbit, GPU is 1.31 Tflops, Direct X 11.1+
#2 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(29) | Disagree(35) | Report | Reply
Metfanant  +   237d ago
actually its just about the same...remember that peak b/w is only available to the embedded RAM...not the 8GB of DDR3...that is still significantly slower...
PFFT  +   237d ago
Isnt the Xbox One a DX11.2 machine??? I thought MS already confirmed this.....?
FrigidDARKNESS  +   237d ago
It is will be done thru software whereas next gen gpu g cards it will be embedded.
BallsEye  +   237d ago
It is and they did confirm it. DX 11.2 is yet to be released so they write about dx11.1+ (plus as works with future version)
Good_news_every1   237d ago | Spam
kewlkat007  +   237d ago
3:60 to hUMA (2014)
#2.4 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
Wikkid666   237d ago | Off topic | show | Replies(4)
Popoffboy187718   237d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(1)
Dlacy13g  +   237d ago
this is gonna get interesting.

edit: I should say it will be ugly here, but could be an interesting debate on NeoGaf. Sorry N4G but I am not holding out hopes of a civil conversation here.
#5 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(29) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
majiebeast  +   237d ago
True neogaf has dbz comparisions.
iamnsuperman  +   237d ago
I am on NeoGaf right now. They make it easier to understand
STANK08  +   237d ago
S#%T is bout to hit the fan.
#6 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(11) | Report | Reply
Whitey2k  +   237d ago
what difference does it make?? its still be slower prepared to ps4 cos it runs at 176GB/s no matter what and still x1 still has 1.3T due to the gpu being weak
Izzy408   237d ago | Not a reply | show | Replies(3)
hennessey86  +   237d ago
"Due to the GPU being weak" we all no the PS4 has a better GPU, but the 360 has a better GPU than the PS3 and which has the better looks games...........I'm not saying in the long run the Xbox one will continue to have better or equal graphics to the PS4, but to call a GPU weak that has produced visuals on the scale of forza 5 and ryse Is ridiculers. You can't think of these GPUs in the same way as you do with PC GPUs, these will be highly modified to make maximum use of the other console hardware.
#7.2 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(19) | Disagree(17) | Report | Reply
Whitey2k  +   237d ago
no cos its more like an all in ine die GPCPU and yes ps3 had a weaker GPU but u have 4gotten that cell can be played in the gpu aswell if it didnt the ps3 would be very weak.. and yes x1 and ps4 can do much more then current gen but with them they can can only go so far and with ps4 being better on the sheets it would have abit more life then the x1
M-M  +   237d ago
I'm serious, are Sony fanboys really disagreeing with "the 360 has a better GPU than the PS3"? The reason why PS3 exclusives looked amazing was because of the Cell processor.
joefrost00  +   237d ago
This is going to get good
Izzy408  +   237d ago
Well i'll be damned.
DoesUs  +   237d ago
As predicted.
thrust  +   237d ago
Is this good or bad?
ashahab861   237d ago | Spam
GraveLord  +   237d ago
Neither.

Nothing has changed. PS4s memory system is still the most developer friendly and the most efficient and capable.

Just because Xbox One can "theoretically" reach 204, it doesn't mean its better than the PS4s which can reach 176Gb/s. PS4 has consistency and efficieny. That's something that the Xbox One can't match. It's all "theoretical".
thrust  +   237d ago | Well said
So when then ps4 had a higher number it was better?

Cool, the Xbox one is better now.

204gb/s is bigger than 176gb/s!
Xsilvermist  +   237d ago
Lol u know ur on a xbot article u think they will listen to you even tho everything ur saying is correct, let the delusional parade have fun they need some good news in their life.
#11.2.2 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(12) | Disagree(20) | Report
Evilsnuggle   237d ago | Trolling | show
ziggurcat  +   237d ago
@ thrust:

the·o·ret·i 83;cal
/THēəˈretikəl/
Adjective
Concerned with or involving the theory of a subject or area of study rather than its practical application: "a theoretical physicist".
Based on or calculated through theory rather than experience or practice: "a theoretical reformer of opinions".
#11.2.4 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(3) | Report
Ju  +   237d ago
Those 204GB/s are just there for marketing. This system - all components considered - has no sub system which can communicate faster than 102GB/s. The 204GB/s are a theoretical value in an absolute perfect world where you could read and write to and from ESRAM at the same time.

But in no moment in time could you read a pixel faster than 102GB/s.

GDDR5 can "fill" the PS4's GPU with a max bandwidth 176GB/s.

Nothing has changed. More information has been detailed. Some details are quite interesting. The 68GB r/w into DDR3 are impressive.

It does not appear to have a hUMA configuration. The GPU-CPU synchronized MMU tables are interesting and warrant cache coherency between the two - but it also almost means this is no hUMA configuration. Addresses are not shared, but the MMU is used to flush caches on either "processor" when they access the same page table. hUMA would require a shared memory controller and shared MMU (IMO).

Edit: I have to correct this. Nothing points at having cache coherency for GPU caches; only CPU caches are cache coherent.

The audio processor is interesting, too. This is a DSP, basically. Nothing too fancy. Nice to have a custom signal processor.

The PS4 has a HW audio processor as well. It has encode/decode engines (and my best guess is what ever Gaikai contributed - it can encode live video streams) plus an additional (ARM based?) network processor.

Nothing really changed. Same as before. The leaks where accurate.

BTW: Can anyone explain where the additional 15MB come from? 32MB are eSRAM, what's the rest?
#11.2.5 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(8) | Report
badkolo  +   237d ago
204 over 176, dont spin it. theoretical my butt, just like the 40% extra power, all theoretical cause games looking better on x1 so far
ziggurcat  +   237d ago
@ badkolo:

yes, theoretical:

"In the pic of the architectural design you'll see the "theoretical throughput" of 204 GB/s peak BW."

and everything looks better when you're wearing rose-coloured glasses. games looking better on xbone is a biased opinion. the fact of the matter is, they don't.
#11.2.7 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(5) | Report
MagnusX  +   236d ago
whats not theoretical is the fact although PS4 specs are "better" and "easier to use" games look better on the the X1...Ryse
KwietStorm  +   237d ago
LOL if that's your reply, why did you ask in the first place?
No_Limit  +   237d ago
Some noteworthy stuff:
Msoft XBox One supports shared coherent memory between 8 AMD Jaguar cores and DX 11.1+ GPU like @hsafoundation

XBox One SOC has a CPU, GPU, and 15 special-purpose processors. Total of 47MB of storage on-chip. #HC25

Hot Chips: At 363mm2 with over 5b transistors the Xbox One SoC designed by Microsoft and AMD is a very complex SoC.

Audio offload processor in XBox One SoC are "completely designed by Microsoft" and have "more than a CPU core worth of processing" #HC25

XBox One CPU has eight "modified" AMD Jaguar x86-64 cores, in two clusters of four cores. Modifiations to memory sharing & bandwidth. #HC25

I have no idea what this all mean but sounds impressive, I guess. LOL
vigilante_man  +   237d ago
It is mighty impressive. Way better than we all expected from our next gen consoles at the turn of the year!
badkolo  +   237d ago
it means its a customized beast thanks to ms and not off the shelf parts, everyone get the napkins ready, tears are droppin
ziggurcat  +   237d ago
are you enrolled in the frigiddarkness school of delusional ramblings?

post proof that PS4 uses off-the-shelf parts.
Gameratheart  +   237d ago
Ziggercat, post proof it doesn't use off the shelf parts. And, what happened to the "extra" cpu that was supposed to handle all background tasks and the os? Because suddenly you fanboys and Sony stopped talking about it, and about how that chip was going to make all 8 cores of the cpu for games..... Why is it that now the ps4 dedicates 2 cores for all that? Hmmm? Because they are taking things out of it, just like the extra USB, hdmi, etc.. That they pulled out of the ps3 before launch too... Well, now what?
ziggurcat  +   236d ago
@ gameratheart:

That's not how arguments work, you don't prove a negative. The onus is on the person making the claim (i.e. that the Ps4 uses off-the-shelf parts) by providing evidence, otherwise it's pure conjecture.

And since you also seem to like making unsubstantiated claims, prove that the PS4 only uses 2 cores for games, and that they're removing features.

I also didn't realize that not talking about a chip = it no longer exists. There's nothing from the initial PS4 reveal that has changed, which is more than I can say about the xbone.
BOLO  +   237d ago
All dem chips...Starting to look like a Sega Saturn from an engineering standpoint...Or a bag of Xbox branded Doritos.
M-M  +   237d ago
Those are some very good specifications, I don't know why people were running around saying that the next generation consoles were "off the shelf" parts. Pretty much, the next generation console's CPU and GPU is being created by AMD, but each company specifies how their individual parts want to function to suit their needs. Then AMD makes customized APUs with a very easy to use architecture. That's the reason why developers praise next generation consoles, but both APUs have hidden secrets for exclusive developers to dive into.
buynit  +   237d ago
Ok... Can someone give the laymans term on this?
KingKelloggTheWH  +   237d ago
X1's memory is slightly better than many expected, but not as good as others are making it out to be.
buynit  +   237d ago
Got it... Its good news and not many like it, thanks.
Metfanant  +   237d ago
im confused by all the "this is going to be good" or "shit will hit the fan" comments...is there a reason for these?...the HotChips presentation really confirmed almost everything we have known or speculated on for some time...

1. the Xbone is 1.31Tflops on the GPU side (1.84 PS4)
2. the Xbone uses an 8core CPU w/jaguar cores (same as PS4)
3. it uses some sort of similar memory architecture to AMD's upcoming APU's (not hUMA, but hUMA like...just like PS4)
4. We got some good details on the Xbone's audio proccessing unit...which apparently has ~1cpu core worth of processing power...which should help out a bit
5. very radically designed (more so than PS4 which is much more straight forward)

oh and at least we dont have to listen to Fridgid tell us that the Xbone is going to have a Kaveri based APU anymore...as he is officially proven wrong lol
DoesUs  +   237d ago
To be fair, he alone was the sole supporter of said APU.
Izzy408  +   237d ago
Do you even know what you're saying?
Dlacy13g  +   237d ago
1) this is N4G so conversation will never stay above water for long.

2) Seems many are trying to understand where the 8GB of Flash Memory came from / what its purpose is.
badkolo  +   237d ago
thats right , i forgot, the x1 also has 8 gig of flash
XboxFun  +   237d ago
I think its because the majority on here were saying how much of a huge leap the PS4 is compared to the Xbox One. But in reality (from what I am gathering here) the difference isn't that wide at all.

People like to play numbers on this site instead of actual games. So that is why some here are grabbing their popcorn and waiting for the spin to commence.
MRMagoo123  +   237d ago
In reality what you are gathering here is Xboners trying to play down the gap, the gap is the same as it was before around 40% thats all this articles has proven anyone saying otherwise is lying or delusional.
awi5951  +   237d ago
@MRMagoo123

Like how PS4 fans deny that the PS4 and xbox 1 are already outdated by low end PC Graphics cards. Those 7870's and 7950's are really cheap now at 150 to 220 dollars lol.
pyramidshead  +   237d ago
He's not going to be very happy hahaha.
Finally the BS can stop!

Even frigid's source has kinda admitted his failings. However near the end the insider still claims the Xb1 is more powerful yaddayaddayadday
http://misterxmedia.livejou...

"Misterx: So, MS gave AMD billions and not allowed to talk about what they spend thouse billions for? That also means PS4 will have similar hardware I.e >1.8TF...and how could MS be not the first served with AMD?

Or is it all because of Intel-AMD x86 agreements? So who blocked MS
from speak? That is only related to APU or it is x86 inside dGPU too?
Insider: Sorry but ms did not give AMD billions.. You are miss informed."
#14.5 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(8) | Disagree(8) | Report | Reply
moparful99  +   237d ago
So can someone help me understand the differences between Xbox One's unified architecture and PS4's huMA architecture? From what I've read GDDR5 has latency issues but using the heterogeneous unified memory architecture is supposed to somehow offset or solve the latency issues of GDDR5. All of this technical jargon gets confusing fast..
JunioRS101  +   237d ago
Haha I think it's safe to say that none of us really knows much about what this means, myself especially.

So... in layman's terms please?
iamnsuperman  +   237d ago
We just see numbers and go mental at each other. I am following this thread on Neogaf. http://www.neogaf.com/forum...

They really put it into perspective for people like us
#15.1 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
sincitysir1  +   237d ago
Haha neogaf people are so much nicer and funnier
SmokingMonkey  +   237d ago
LOL at all the DBZ power comparison's on that thread.
yewles1  +   237d ago
Wait a minute... *looks at bandwidth* 109GB/s MINIMAL??? WHAT KIND OF FLUCTUATION IS 'THAT'???
dark_101  +   237d ago
Can anyone explain (in English plz ^^)
Thanks you
ashahab861   237d ago | Spam
aquamala  +   237d ago
hmmm 8GB of flash memory? first time I've heard of it

wonder what it's used for ? cache? video recording? suspend/resume?
#17 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
Convas  +   237d ago
Probably for OS and game/app suspension or snap feature?
DoesUs  +   237d ago
Recording.
aquamala  +   237d ago
5 minutes of 720p video doesn't even take up 1GB
sincitysir1  +   237d ago
Damn straight it don't. I download whole movies at 720 at about 800 mb
Metfanant  +   237d ago
they have talked about flash memory being used in conjunction with the HDD...its probably the reason we cant upgrade the Xbone's HDD
vigilante_man  +   237d ago
Sounds about right. Like having one of those Hybrid XT drives that have small SSD and large HDD. I was hoping that next gen would have Hybrid drives. Their cache sizes are much larger than normal HDD and thus improve performance.

Can't wait until they ship and then labs get their hands on these beasts and strip them down to their bare bones.
imt558  +   237d ago
Probably for 5 minutes recording, downloading updates and other minor stuff.
pyramidshead  +   237d ago
:)
taiyed80  +   237d ago
if you have to ask for a translation then i think it's safe to say you don't need to know.
#19 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(9) | Report | Reply
sincitysir1  +   237d ago
Sorry oh superior one
taiyed80  +   237d ago
Well, it's obvious the people asking are asking for a watered-down, simple answer on how it compares to ps4, so they can then start spitting off numbers they know nothing about as proof that their console of choice is better.
buynit  +   237d ago
I take it you are just as clueless?
joefrost00  +   237d ago
ITS OVER 9000
JunioRS101  +   237d ago
It's pretty amazing how little I deduce from both the NEOGAF threads and pictures.

I wish educated people would step forward and help us little guys out lmao

PS4 OR XBOX ONE AGHHH JUST TELL ME WHAT THIS MEANS
Dlacy13g  +   237d ago
Yeah one thing about NeoGaf is threads can get derailed quickly by all the .gif postings. DBZ references always get made it tech threads... today is no different. If you filter out that crap you can actually get some good insight on GAF regarding this stuff.
Death  +   237d ago
It pretty much means the hardware on both sides is similar enough that the devs are the ones that will determine which ocnsole is better for you.
XabiDaChosenOne  +   237d ago
Stop lying, the specs confirms the PS4 is superior.....by a large margin. These are just consoles bro no need to lie on their behalf.
Popoffboy187718  +   237d ago
It means bots are still grasping for straws!!!!
Belking  +   237d ago
A sumary.
+ Xbone SoC is Designed by MS and AMD
+ Over 5 billion transaistors
+ 363mm²
+ Modified Jaguar x86-64 cores, two clusters of 4 cores (two CPU tapped together)
+ 47MB or cache (32MB eSRAM + 15MB CPU L1 & L2 & L3 I guess)
+ HSA HUMMA Coherent Shared Memory
+ Modifications for memory sharing & bandwidth
+ Audio offload processor
+ DX11.1+ GPU
+ 264GB/s total mem bandwidth
+ 15 co processors

It also has 8Gb of Flash memory. The os probably uses that. This would mean the xbox-one will have even more RAM available for games. It looks like the console is even more capable than we thought before. They customized the heck out of this thing.
ma1asiah  +   237d ago
I agree with the 8 GB of Flash RAM,

On every X360 that was has been mas produced since the X360 Elite onwards, well this is exactly what they used to handle the OS.

Given all this new information it puts ID studio's John Cormacks perception that there is barely any difference in performance between the X1 and the PS4 in a better perspective.

Still at the end of the day it will be more about the Dev's ability to translate every ounce of raw power to give us out of this world gaming experiences.

Like I continue to say regardless of what console anyone chooses to get us GAMERS are the winners
Belking  +   237d ago
It's actually a bit of reversal to this gen where MS has the edge in GPU and sony had the CPU edge. Now it's seem to be the other way around and MS has a very customized build. You are right about Carmack and this is what he meant when he said he needs to know more. Their is a spec gap but not so much a performance gap. MS has made up for it by a significant amount of customization.

Now all we need is a similar breakdown from sony
#23.1.1 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(5) | Report
imt558  +   237d ago
HSA HUMMA Coherent Shared Memory

hUMA and Coherent Shared Memory are not the SAME!

CSM is useful for multicore systems whereby they can all share the same location at once, so for example if 1 of the 8 cores changes the information in the memory location the other 7 cores are working using out of date information stored in their cache.

hUMA is basically so the CPU and GPU can share data between each other so the cpu doesnt have to copy the information to memory and the gpu copy it out, then copy it back to memory then the cpu can copy it out. While the PS4 may not use hUMA, Sony have integrated their own version of it using the "Garlic" Bus I think.

So, XO does not have hUMA, PS4 does. Sorry. Or if you wanna know, go here : http://www.neogaf.com/forum...
#23.2 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(10) | Report | Reply
Ju  +   237d ago
Afaik, PS4 has no cache coherency between CPU caches and GPU (or did I miss this). But it has the said Garlic bus and some proper cache control registers in the GPU. With that it requires "SW managed coherency", basically, memory regions can be declared non cacheable. Should basically have the same effect as cache coherency but must be designed properly to begin with - but also has the advantage of not to worry about cache flushes for cacheable areas. In the simplest form some shared memory between the two can be used. The hUMA question isn't clear, IMO, but it appears that way. One can't share addresses, the other can.
#23.2.1 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(0) | Report
badkolo  +   237d ago
yup, its a custom beast for what it is, meaning in the end its on par with the ps4 .
PrimeGrime  +   237d ago | Well said
You are just misleading others about the entire flash memory part. I can already see this is going to be the next big failed discussion here on N4G. Those not knowledgeable enough are just going to believe it which isn't right.

You are right it will be used for the OS obviously but you thinking it will free up RAM usage is the wrong part.

That is not what it means. You have to keep in mind this system has a really big OS this time around. Obviously way larger than what the PS4's UI will probably be.

How big is a Windows 8 installation? On a 64bit system the total installation is a little over 8GB. So it makes sense that internal memory is there just to store the OS/firmware. It will still use the RAM pool though, internal flash memory doesn't work in the same way RAM does. The OS isn't going to be able to just use flash memory to do everything. It is there to free up more HHD space as the Xbox One we all know its not removable, the flash and HDD are used in conjunction. Which validates it even further.

To prove what I am saying even more the Xbox 360 already did this, the Xbox 360 has internal memory for the OS also and it still uses a fraction of its RAM. Of course it isn't nearly as large as on the Xbox One because the XBox 360 wasn't running windows 8 basically.

It won't change anything. Both the PS4 and Xbox One are still going to be using an amount of RAM to run the OS.

No one knows how much either plan on reserving for the OS. So you guys can dream up and speculate whatever you want to until they both confirm how much RAM the OS uses. Or until someone just breaks them down when they are released and figures it out themselves.
#23.4 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(9) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
MarkusMcNugen  +   236d ago
While I agree with just about everything you have said. I feel like I have to point out that when they said Windows 8, they didnt mean the whole OS. You cant judge the OSes size based on the retail PC version of Windows 8 since they were referring to the kernel, not the whole OS.
PrimeGrime  +   236d ago
@MarkusMcNugen

I know that. I made it clear on the 2nd page here when I posed all this if you happened to read my other comments on this matter. I was using the full blown Windows 8 as an example, just an example.

I know it won't be that big exactly.

Given it is 8GB flash though one can assume a good chunk of it will probably be used for the OS and I can assume the rest will be for firmware updates.

I was making the point in that it is a very robust OS this time around being put on the system that will require that internal flash memory and that it is very similar to Windows 8. Which in that aspect it will require more space than we have previously seen with the Xbox 360.
#23.4.2 (Edited 236d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report
MarkusMcNugen  +   236d ago
Fair enough ;)
RussellGorall  +   237d ago
Looks like a Microsoft press release.
REDAVUTSTUVADER  +   237d ago
Oh, not in the position to the proceedings. DDR3 has 4 channels, GPU, GPU memory 264GB/s, 4 x 256 r/w bit high speed CPU, GPU and memory connection.
https://twitter.com/Prof_hr...

A SUMMARY
+ Xbox One SoC is Designed by MS and AMD
+ Over 5 billion transaistors on 363mm² MAIN SOC
https://semiaccurate.com/as...
+ Modified Jaguar x86-64 cores, two clusters of 4 cores
+ 47MB of cache
+ 8G DDR3 and 8G FLASH
+ Coherent Shared Memory
+ Modifications for memory sharing & bandwidth (HSA HUMMA)
+ Audio offload processor 15 GFLOPS
+ DX11.1+ GPU
+ 264GB/s total mem bandwidth
+ GPU CONTAINS 15 co processors
+ 500 GB HARD DRIVE
this is not everything either
"Microsoft disclosed some details, but left many important pieces out. Evidently, Microsoft doesn’t want to tell all of its competitors about how well designed its system is."

http://venturebeat.com/2013...

dGPU not mentioned, but may exist
Vinber Lei
GPU Design Verification Engineer at AMD
Graphics Core IP Design Verification,APU/DGPU
Xbox One,Playstation 4
http://www.linkedin.com/in/...
----------------------------- -------
link to original related images
http://gamrconnect.vgchartz...

Related image(s)
#25 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(13) | Disagree(5) | Report | Reply
jjb1981  +   237d ago
I hope so, the more the better. I'm getting both systems so its all good news to me.
hollabox  +   237d ago
I see MS has been making some hardware improvements since XB1 was announced.
MarkusMcNugen  +   236d ago
Probably not. Trying to change hardware specs this late in the game would be nearly impossible since production is so close, if not already started. This was all planned before the first Xbox One announcement. The only feasible thing they can do at this point is software upgrades, which includes firmware. Just like the OC for the GPU.
hollabox  +   236d ago
They did improve the clock speeds after E3 to their GPU. As long as MS is not changing chips, developers shouldn't be affected by spec changes since games are developed on PC first before porting. But like U said this could have been planned for awhile now.
vigilante_man  +   237d ago
Basically the jist seems to be:

* PS4 has more powerful GPU
* PS4 has more powerful Ram
* XBox One has higher theoretical speeds for data
* XBox One has slower normal speeds for Data
* PS4 has fast, consistent speed for data
* Both have same CPU
* XBox One seems to have a great audio chip

If it was purely a race then PS4 would win 8 races out of ten and would perform better on PC-type benchmarks for graphics.

So Microsoft know this and have conceded the power argument by saying specs are not important. But as we keep telling our PC gaming friends it only matters how we put all those things together for a dedicated system. The games and apps and other functions like TV will determine how good each machine is built for its purpose.

Please people, no more numbers...
Alvidta  +   237d ago
Although it seems, MS Chip is more customized and they're trying to run off that instead.
illtownNJONE  +   237d ago
forget all these numbers...at the end of the day xboxone games look and run better
TKCMuzzer  +   237d ago
Really? How are you making that judgement? From watching video footage?
Until you have both consoles wired up to your own TV I don't think you or anyone else on here is in a position to make such a comment.
#30.1 (Edited 237d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(4) | Report | Reply
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